Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    
    From what ive read, other bucks will make their own leaving their own
    scent.
    
    A Doe will also make a scrape. According to the writer, I think his
    name was Wayne Fears. I could get the article, anyway how would like to
    hunt a scrape and a Doe keeps coming in, Ha,Ha..New one on me!
    
    Rick

    Also, how does one determine if the scrape is a territorial boundary
    or an active hangout?
    
    Do you prefer to take a downwind stand in an area full of scrapes
    or rather an area that's full of rubs?
    
    Mark_who's_seen_more_deer_around_rubs_than_scrapes.

 Forgive this dumb question, but would somebody differentiate between a scrape
and a rub?

 The Doctah

    Mark,
    
    A scrape a just that - a scrape in the dirt, typically under an over-
    hanging evergreen bough.  A buck will clear an area 18 inches in
    diameter to several feet, urinate in it and then leave his scent
    above in the branches with his head.  These can be territorial in
    nature or rather can be used to lure does into his territory for
    mating purposes.  A buck will often check the scrapes for the presence
    of does, who also will urinate in the scrape signifying whether
    or not she's in estrus.
    
    A rub is a mark on a tree or sapling that the buck causes by rubbing
    the base of his antlers up and down along the trunk.  The tree 
    can be as small as an inch in diameter, but I've seen rubs on trees
    that were 3-4 inches in diameter.  Also, a buck will rub the velvet
    off his antlers on trees in the summer months as well.  Sometimes
    you can tell how big of a rack a deer has by close inspection of
    the rub by measuring the distance from puncture marks in the tree 
    (above the rub, caused by the antler tines) from the rub itself.
    
    It is my understanding (ie. I could be wrong) that rubs are pretty
    much territorial boundaries, although bucks seem to be more active
    in rubbing activity during the rut (hence the Herchel Walker neck
    phenomenom in dominant bucks :*)).  Scrapes are a means of letting
    a doe know who the boss is and "what is she doing for the evening?"

    Mark_who's_still_learning_after_9_years_of_deer_hunting.

    A scrape is done on the ground, you will see just dirt mostly and is
    usually done with a branch of a tree hanging
    almost right above it.   A rub is usually a young tree ranging from 1
    to 4 inches in diameter that has the bark rubbed right off of it, this
    will be from a couple of inches from the ground to 2 to 3 feet high.  
    You can tell the fresh rubs buy the color of the wood underneath.
    
    Dom
    

>> Forgive this dumb question, but would somebody differentiate between 
>> a scrape and a rub?

A scrape is the bare, usually circular patch of dirt that the bucks 
will use as territorial markers and for does to advertise that they're 
in heat.  A rub is where a buck will rub the bark off a small sapling 
or tree in an effort initially to rub the velvet off his antlers and 
later to build up his neck in preparation for the rut.  It might even 
be the whitetail equivalent of a cold shower ;^).

With the scrapes, there's also usually an overhanging branch that the 
buck will use to rub more scent on with the scent glands around the 
eyes.

As for which is more productive to hunt, I'd have to go with the 
scrape every time.  A buck might get pissed and work over a sapling 
with no intention of ever coming back, but if a buck makes a scrape you 
can bet he'll be checking it to see if there are any does in the area.

Scott

 Thanks alot guys. That's what I thought; hearkening back a few years to when I
got Field and Stream...

 Mark

    
    okay...some more questions...
    
    what about rub lines?  You know those hooked areas that have a definite
    pattern to them...like on the edge of a deer trail or all along the
    edge of an alder swamp.  Sometimes you may find 10 - 50 hookings (rubs)
    that somehow simulate a line.  Has anyone ever had any luck hunting
    rub lines?  It has been my understanding tha bucks will frequent these
    places, and it may be his "core" area.  I've heard all kinds of success
    stories from people working these lines, but haven't had any success
    myself.
    
    Can't stop thinking about tomorrow morning....
    
    Kevin

    I've read that bucks, does, and even juveniles will all
    use a scrape. A small buck might smell a dominant buck and
    avoid a scrape, but if the dominant's scent disperses while
    the doe scent remains, he might 'screw up his courage'
    and use the scrape.

    well, a friend of mine and I were hunting in an area along the edge of
    a hemlock grove and a brook/suckerbrush, perfect for big bucks to hang
    out in... there was a nice scrape line running along the edge of the
    hemlocks, with scattered rubs here and there...  good sized rubs 2"-4"
    trees. We had done alot of preseason scouting, and had set up a
    portable less than 20' from a good sized scrape (along a scrape line)
    and another treestand in another hemlock over looking 2 other scrapes.
    
    Had 2 bucks 6 and 8 pointers come in around 8:00 am monday morning.
    My buddy saw what he believed to be a 6 pointer about 50 yards out... no
    chance for a shot.  Had a nice 8 pointer come in, and tend his
    scrape.  did all the things you read about, licked the branches above
    him, thrashed his antlers above him, rubbed his back legs together and
    urinated all over himself at the same time... drooling etc... 
    
    Fra

    
    
    	This is my current understanding from the myriad of books on the
    subject:
    
    	-  Generally the largest of scrapes can be considered primary 
    	   breeding scrapes.  These scrapes are huntable from downwind,
    	   however, the stage of the rut has much to do with the success
    	   you may receive.  As breeding begins, bucks will spend much
    	   less time at scrapes and more time breeding does.
    
    	-  Rubs are an indication of a bucks travel route.  It has also
    	   been determined that most rubs occur near bedding areas (night
    	   and daytime bedding).  The direction of travel can be determined
    	   by the side of the tree rubbed.  Freshness of the rub is
           important because many times the buck may be cruising and
   	   breeding does.
    
    	-  Hunting rub lines??  There are some who say it works, however,
    	   I believe rub lines fit into the puzzle much better when the
    	   buck is not breeding but rather working his scrapes, thus
   	   travelling his scrape/rub line.
    
    	-  When a buck is with a doe (and will be for one to two days
   	   before and during her cycle which lasts a mere 24 hours), you
    	   can throw scrapes and rubs out the window, cause he won't be
    	   back until he's done his duty!  (importance of freshness of rub/
    	   scrapes).  Unless of course you have patience and someone else
    	   doesn't kill your deer first!
    
    	-  Bucks will cruise and smell quartering into the wind to find
    	   active does whether or not he is actively scraping (bucks will
    	   not always wait for the scrape to produce, he'll go looking).
    
    	-  Rubs/Scrapes are much more predominant in a high deer density
    	   area (especially predominant when there's lots of competetion
    	   between bucks of similar age).
    
    
    	Couple all of these variables, with the fact that hunters will
    generally disrupt movements (especially when scent is left near the
    active scrapes) and you have a challenge.
    
    Personally, I have shot bucks near rubs, and also with does after the
    scraping and rubbing has been done.  So what do you do?  If the rub
    line and scrapes is extremely "HOT", hunt it.  If not, hunt the does,
    that's where your buck will be.  This will and does change day to day.
    
    				Good luck to all, Happy hunting!!  - Rob
      

    HEY ROB, GOOD LUCK TOMORROW, AND ALL THE OTHER VT BOYS!!!
    
    FRA

    
    	Hey Fra, thanks for the good luck!  you too, but that's kind of
    late I see.  Nice deer, but remember, if I hit a deer with a .22 long
    in the backbone he's going to drop too!!  :')  Also, how was the rack,
    I remember you saying something about those "spindly" VT racks.....
     

    Rob,
    
    a 22 will drop it in its tracks too, but man you should have seen the
    damage that bullet did to the backbone, completely seperated the spine
    in two with incredible distruction to the backbone.
    
    I had a good chuckle thinking bout what you, Kevin, and Red all said
    about the big ones that are out there... and me telling ya their all
    spikes... 8^)  This one was a boney 8 pointer but was a keeper, it had
    a perfectly symetrical rack so i'm taking it to be mounted this 
    afternoon... 
    
    We have all the racks from 80% of the deer shot at the camp hanging
    on the camp walls, most are spikes or thin 4 and 6 pointers. We have 
    a couple of really wide racks which should have been 8 or 10 pointers
    but have no tines on them... glorified spikehorns  8^)  i'm telling ya 
    its wild... 
    
    If you havn't filled your tags yet, good luck, all the best to ya!
    
    Fra