Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Filling of tags by others in the party SUCKS in my opinion, in fact
    as stated in the earlier note I don't hunt (or anything for that
    matter) with a former partner (also an employee here) for that very
    reason. I am impressed with what seems to be quite a few individuals
    in this conference that feel as I do with regard to the sport and
    the game involved, more of "spirit and letter of the law" (thanks
    Linda) will outweigh the slob hunters!!
    
    dick 

    Hi Rob,
    Hmmm, well, as far as the changing of plans goes and the decline
    of the offer there may be other factors. It's possible that the
    second offer was planned to be more economical ???? More people
    splitting costs, or bottom of the barrel accomodations ? What were
    the details ? Is it possible that there might be a personality
    conflict that your not aware of between Chris and someone else
    who was going with you ? Maybe he's like alot of us and knows he
    can't afford to really do something but as the time grows closer
    the desire to hunt (fishing fits here nicely for me also!) grows
    so great that he changes his mind and does it anyways ? Or maybe
    he's just a real sh*thead to begin with.....
    
    On the two buck thing there's no legal excuse...I know many groups
    that some members will offer up a deer for someone else to tag
    after they shoot it because they're more interested in hunting 
    some more then filling the freezer. I can't say this really bothers
    me terribly...the guy who tags it quits hunting so the effect on
    the number killed should average out the same. What were the details
    ?
    
    Marty

    Well, I recently found myself in a peculiar situation and would like
    to hear what some of you would have done.
    
    I'm pheasant hunting with my lab.  We've done well and I have my
    two cocks in the bag.  It's still fairly early and we are deep into
    the bush, so we leasurely hunt back to the truck in hopes of bumping
    a woodcock or two.  The dog puts up another cock right in front of
    me.  It's always great to see, but no shooting this time, I'm done.
    
    Then the dog gets on a scent and trails it into the bushes.  The
    next thing I know she is trotting back with a cock pheasant in her
    mouth.
    
    Now what?!  If I keep it, I'm over my limit and no warden is likely to
    believe me when I say my dog caught that one.  On the other hand, it
    seems immoral to leave the bird there to rot.  (it couldn't fly or
    run at that point, but wasn't dead).
    
    What would you do?
    
    Mark,

    RE .2 - Who you hunt with becomes a more difficult decision as more
    people make up a hunting party.  I made a few trips to Virginia 
    deer hunting with a close friend of mine.  Basically we hunted with
    a very close friend of his who had a deer camp with a few others.  My
    friend really looked forward to hunting with this guy, but had a
    serious personality conflict with others in the camp.  He was really
    torn for a couple of years and finally decide to hunt elsewhere, but
    now he misses seeing that friend.  It's a tough choice.
    
    The only thing I would suggest is a phone call rather than a letter.
    While it may not be easy, if this guy has been your friend you should
    be able to talk straight with him.  Maybe there are some circumstances
    you weren't aware of, maybe not.  Either way, you should be sure after
    the phone call.
    
    Good luck with this,
    Mark
    

    Re: .4
    I would have left the bird. I asked a si,ilar question a year or so ago
    in the fishing file.  The question was, what do I do when I catch and
    go to release a short salmon, only to find it's dead from being hooked
    too severely.  I used to keep such salmon figuring it was a waste of
    game to release a dead fish, and I'd take my chances with the warden if
    found out.
    
    The replies I got about whethger or not to continue this practice
    convinced me that a.) it probably wasn't worth risking my fishing
    rights, b.) the dead fish would go to use in feeding some other natural
    resident (hawk, eagle, bigger fish, etc.), and c.) if a warden wanted
    to be real nasty, I could lose a lot more than my fishing privileges
    (like confiscation of equipment and fines).  So now, if I catch a short
    and it's a "floater" I still release it.  A couple times I've seen
    ospreys dive in a scoop em up.
    
    My experience isn't exactly comparable to yours I know, but I'd leave
    the bird or possibly give it to someone else that might be near if they
    hadn't reached their limit.  Why risk your own hunting privileges?
    
    My .$02       Pete
    

    
    Mark,
    
    You bring up a very interesting situation.  I have had similar
    experiences duck hunting, where after reaching my limit my dog will
    find a cripple someone didn't recover.  What do you do?  I have left
    the bird in the past, but I hate doing it.  What a waste.  I would
    rather take the bird, and turn it in to the game officials so they
    could keep it, give it away, etc, so it doesn't go to waste.  The
    next time I encounter a game warden I am going to ask for their
    opinion.  But I bet I know the answer...leave it.
    
    The ethical thing to do is to take the game, but it's also the illegal
    thing to do....our laws aren't always ethical.  I wish our system was
    more flexible at times.
    
    Kevin

    Thanks for your replies.  I found this a really tough choice.  I ended
    up keeping the bird.  I guess this was more an emotional choice than
    a logical one.  Had I seen the warden, I would have offered to dress
    the bird right there to show him there was no shot in it.  Of course,
    only knew I hadn't shot it, I didn't know if someone else may have
    wounded it.  Anyway, I wouldn't really have expected the warden to
    buy my story, but took the chance anyway.
    
    I was really hoping I would bump into some other hunters without dogs
    that I could give it too, but didn't see any.
    
    Frankly, I hope I don't find myself in that situation again.
    
    Mark
    

    I have two stories to tell that are similar to ones mentioned.
    
    Once while I was in New York state I was in area that was stocked for
    the Pheasant opener and since Ruffed Grouse was opened and I was not
    real familar with the area I thought I would just go Grouse hunting
    and if the dog flushed a pheasant I would not shoot.
    
    Well to my surprise we jumped many Pheasants. somewhere in the
    neighborhood of 30... When I finially did jump a Ruffed Grouse
    I didn't lift my gun I just dropped my jaw when I recconized it wasn't
    a pheasant and no longer had a shot.
    
    Well My dog came back with a beautiful Cock.. a pick up... It was
    Damaged somehow but I was sure was not fireupon...
    
    I left it..
    
    Little did I know the next day the warden checked me for a license and
    remarked that he was happy to inform me that I should be proud or
    some words like that because he observed the day before for possible
    poaching..
    
    So you never know when they are watching and beleive some of them get
    quite creative..
    
    Another Time I was hunting when thre ducks came flying down the pond..
    I reconized them as wood ducks and remember looking at the formation
    trying to determine if they .1 were in range and .2 if I could possible
    shoot at the lead duck with out putting the other 2 ducks in the fringe
    of the pattern... My concearn was hitting either og the lagging ducks
    with a pellet that might in a week or two cause it to parrish..
    
    In my estimation there was plenty of distance so I pulled way out in
    front of the first duck and fired one shot.
    
    estimated distance 45 yards..
    
    what do you think happened??? This is not bragging. In fact I'm
    a little ashamed to admitt what happened.
    
    They all three fell. The two in the rear were stone dead and the actual 
    one I shot at was hit in the wing.
    
    I broke the law with one shot.... or at least I would if I took
    possesion of it...
    
    I recovered two... found another hunter and explained the situation 
    showed him where the duck was and asked if he would mind taking
    possesion of the one.
    
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    
    Now I object to this kind of thing...
    
    I mean if you and I go hunting and I limit out I will not shoot
    your game for you .
    
    I beleive it is wrong to fill another persons tag...
    
    I would not keep extra fish because three of us are in the boat
    and the limit is 15 instead of 5 each....
    
    It is commonly done and it is against the law... I do not , would
    not condone it however in this case of the accident or lack of my
    ability to know what my gun would do
    
    asked someone else to take possesion of duck I shot.
    
    I don't loose sleep over it but it did make me hypocrite.
    
    Bear  

	re keeping the extra bird ...

	Ya gotta go by the law as much as it pains you.  I can relate.

	Was fishing in gold medal water in Colorado.  In this stretch of 
	water, you can't keep any rainbow trout and all browns must be
	at least 16".

	Well, I caught the largest rainbow I've ever seen (about 6-8 lbs)
	but the line had worked its way around and into its gill slits, 
	chewing the gills up pretty bad, bleeding quite a bit.  Back into
	the water it went.

	I felt really bad about it 'cause 1) I figured the fish would die
	and be wasted 2) nobody else was catching anything and it would've
	been nice to walk this fish past the rest of the guys ;-)

	It's not worth risking IMO.

	AA

     RE: past few
    
     I think that from a warden's perspective, a cripple duck or otherwise
    wounded animal won't go to waste if simply left. It will simply go into
    the food chain and complete the cycle. 
     If you came upon a wounded moose, and weren't legally allowed to be
    hunting moose, dispatching the animal would be illegal in the letter of
    the law. Nobody would argue that you did the humane thing, but it would
    be totally up to the discression of the warden who caught you in the
    act or found about the situation as to what to do to you. I'm sure any
    warden would investigate it, hopefully find the wound/problem, and see
    that your story is true. What happens next could go either way,
    depending on the warden's nature. 
     IMHO, it's better to leave the animal and stay completely legal.
    As another noter mentioned, wardens do indeed spend time simply
    observing us in the woods. If you feel strongly about finding a wounded
    or obviously sick animal, report it to the warden service and get their
    direction as what to do. It pains me to see a situation like this, but
    a megabuck fine, loss of equipment, revocation of hunting license, and
    potential time in jail would be painful as well.
    
    Bob

     FYI in Colorado it is considered poaching to dipatch an animal you
    do not have a tags for. Even dispatching a deer hit by a car will
    get you in allot of trouble.
    
     You can call the local wildlife office and tell them about it and
    offer to dipatch the animal and/or see if you can butcher it (depends
    on condition of course). Most of the time, I'll bet you, you won't get it.
    
     I called on a deer hit on the road behind my house and they came out
    and took care of it. Didn't want me shooting a gun in city limits.
    
    But, some time ago there was a published document that stated if hunting
    and you find a serverly injured animal, dispatch it, field dress it
    and call the warden. They will come and pick it up. I wish I had a copy
    of that letter, I wouldn't trust the warden not to ticket me if I did
    this. In fact sometime ago I entered a note on this very thing, when
    I saw a cow elk that all but lost a leg. I let her go.
    
    Mark

    I came upon a driver in Connecticut who had just hit a small deer and 
    was waiting for the state trooper to arrive.  Connecticut allows the 
    driver (who's car is damaged) to keep the deer ... perhaps in
    compensation.  
    
    I asked him if he planned to keep it, and he didn't want it.  With a 
    large family to feed I asked him for it.  He said it was okay with him 
    but I'd have to get the SP permission; so I drove the 2 miles to their 
    station and got permission, then back.  
    
    The state trooper had taken it and kept it instead. 
    
    N

    
    	Bob, Does he listen well?  By that I mean, would he take your
    opinion about his continued hunting objectively?  The person I 
    referred to earlier in this topic had shot two deer before in VT
    one year, had his wife tag the thing..  I say, if someone wants
    a deer, go out and get it, and for those lucky ones, don't be a hog!
    I've taken my shotgun with me bird hunting while the rest of the
    group deer hunted on some successful seasons for me.
    	Then, of course, you could just give the warden his plate #, tell
    the warden where he's hunting, and the rest will be history.  I have
    heard of a guy who hunted so. Vt. and who had shot several deer one
    season... no confirmation or proof of this, but the guy was bragging
    up a storm.  I was unimpressed and let him know.  The only problem is
    that some of these meatheads won't listen no matter what you say.
    	The days of market hunting are over, I think we all have to do
    our part to conserve the resource for the next generation.  Some people
    can't see past the end of their nose and are only concerned for their
    own ego.  Off the soapbox - Rob
    

    

Okay, another, "what would you do" scenario.

This past Saturday my partner and I headed over to the Westboro WMA.
Neither one of us had been there in several years.  Anyway, we are
on our way out, coming up to the parking area.  There's this guy
taking aim on a mallard sitting in the pond.  I didn't see anything in 
the pond til after he shot, as the duck flew in toward him about 20 yrds
after being sprayed with shot.  The guy takes aim again.  I yell out
to him the season doesn't open til Wednesday.  He shoots, kills the 
duck, lifts his coat to point out that he has a license.  I tell him
the season for duck is closed, and doesn't open til Wednesday.  

Now, this is what I didn't do...I didn't confront him, to get his
license number, or ask him his name. 

What we did do, was to take the plate number of the car the four got 
into, taking note of where the guy that did the shooting sat in the 
car.  We then wrote a note listing what had taken place, times etc. 
providing our phone numbers, and left the note in the mail box at
the DF&G headquarters up on the hill.

Do you think there will be any follow up by the DF&G?  

Should we have tried to get the guys license number...

    
    	Will you be able to provide a description on the guy? 
    I would think that would be enough with the plate #...
    
    - Rob
    

    
    Just as an FYI regarding 'road killed' deer in Mass.
    
    	In the 1990 Abstracts there is a posting:
    
    		Road-killed deer may be kept by Massachusetts
    		driver or passenger of vehicle killing deer
    		if reported to Law Enforcement at 1-800-632-8075
    		immediately and then tagged at MDFW or a Division
    		of Law Enforcement office within 24 hours and free
    		permit issued.
    
    
    	  This doesn't say anything about dispensing of a wounded
    	  animal.
    
    dave

re: .18
    
>    	Will you be able to provide a description on the guy? 

		Absolutely....Haven't heard anything from the DF&G
                yet.  But then, I haven't called them either to see 
                if anything is going to happen.

    

To all that witness game violations of any sort, please be careful about
approaching the offenders. Anyone with a loaded gun is to be considered
dangerous. Recently, I was talking to a Mass EPO and even they get
concerned when approaching people with guns. I think what mentioned 
was the correct approach, get a license plate number, descriptions..etc
and report it to EPO/F&G.
If it's someone I know or hunt with I would definitley talk to them 
before maybe turning them in (thats a tough call). Hopefully, between
education and policing ourselves we (hunters/sportsman) can reduce the 
instances of law breaking.

FWIW......Jack 

    
    re: .21 
    
    I saw on the news last night, something similar. Some guy found two
    guys poaching deer in his farm field. When he approached them, he 
    got the *#it kicked out of him! This followed the main story
    of some woman who caught two guys shooting a deer (poaching) and
    scared them off. Unfortunately, this woman was some *significant*
    member of anti hunters association and she was playing it up pretty
    good. How she was going to see it that hunting was banned completely
    in Ontario. Oh yeah her comment was "Hunters don't hunt for meat, to
    cut disease, to thin herds, cut the deer population. Hunters hunt for
    the joy of killing." Ooops, sorry, got carried away. These things
    tend to get me going. Let me through an ethics question at everyone.
    
    A couple of weeks back, I was on my way back from up north deer
    hunting. This was the first week done of the two week season. I
    was rather amazed at how many deer were 'strapped to the hood'.
    Some bucks, some does, unskinned, some with hooves in the air.
    Now us hunters all like to show off our takings, especially to each
    other. I must admit, I was interested seeing how others had done.
    The question is, I'm sure other non-hunters and especially the anti's
    would find it rather disturbing seeing bambi strapped to the hood
    with its tongue flapping in the breeze. Now from what I recall,
    all that I saw were in pickups. Why not put the deer in the bottom
    of the pickup with the stuff on top. It would probably even keep the
    deer a little cleaner from road dirt /snow/rain etc. People couldn't
    worry about getting there 'stuff' dirty after a week in to woods.
    It seems like fuel for the fire for the anti's.
    
    Comments?						/ Andrew / 

> I
>    was rather amazed at how many deer were 'strapped to the hood'.
>    Some bucks, some does, unskinned, some with hooves in the air.

 In some places, like NH, that's the way you have to do it by law. According to
NH State law, some part of the deer must be showing. When we took my deer
to the check in station, we had the hooves hanging out of the back of the
Jeep. The officer told us to make sure that something was visible even after
we had gotten the seal. 

 The Doctah

    
    re .23
    
    There are ways of following the law without being totally arrogant, 
    like you said tying the hooves so they are visisble will be sufficient.
    Besides I hear it's not good to tie a deer to the hood of your vehicle,
    it doesn't allow the cavity to cool properly and can spoil some meat.
    I suppose it would depend on the outside temp., but doesn't sound like
    a good idea anyway.
    
    It's nice to be proud, but respecting others wishes and saving the
    image of our sport has to come first.
    
    Kevin

    Is it possible that the reason there are so many anti's is because
    the majority of the population have become desensitized to the fact
    that meat on the table comes from animals which have been killed,
    butchered and then transported. If we attempt to isolate people
    even more from this fact, we're just sealing our own fate ???? Kids
    who grow up seeing deer tied to the roofs of cars all the time,
    or hung up in someones yard tend in general not to be anti's when
    they grow up. It's the people who come from urban areas with no
    exposure, then move out to the "country", and all of a sudden are
    confronted with the sight of dead animals, something they've never
    seen before, that become the biggest anti's...If we make sure that
    no one is ever exposed, we're as good as through....
    
    Marty
    

    
    
      Here's another situation pertaining to the illegal taking of game
    by a friend of mine. I hadn't seen this guy in about a year until
    he stopped over my folk's house on Thanksgiving Day. He proceeds
    to brag to me about how well he's doing in his job, makeing the
    big-bucks etc.( he always did like to brag ) and in taking a breather
    from talking about himself, he asks me what I've been up to.
      So I proceed to tell him about my hunting adventures etc.  Well,
    he then brags to me about all the game that he sees on the farm
    that he's living on with a friend, and proceeds to tell me that
    they occupy 100 acres, and that he doesn't hunt deer, though they
    see plenty, but that he enjoys shooting Ducks and Geese.  Then he
    makes this appalling statement that they own 100 acres of private
    property, that they don't even need a hunting licence, and they
    can take game of they're chooseing anytime!!
    
      Boy, that got my goat, I immediately informed him that that was
    very illegal, and that they did need hunting licences etc. etc!!
    
      After all the bragging about his position with this company he
    works for etc. and making the big $$ - HE CAN'T AFFORD A HUNTING
    LICENCE ??!!??!!
    
    How many other land owners share this ignorant/elitist attitude
    that my friend portrayed?  At the time I didn't carry on too long,
    though I easily could have lost it, I'm thinking of composing a
    letter, being firm, but sensative, pointing things out like; 
     If he's making such a great salary, why can't he buy a hunting
    license? ( reminding him of what our licenseing fees get used for!)
      Also, pointing out to him that if caught, in the eyes of the law
    he's nothing other than a poacher, if printed in the newspaper would
    do nothing for his job/image etc.etc.
    
       Anyone else know of circumstances like this?
    
                       << Jeff >>

    re .26 Is this a working farm ? If it is, the farmer or his 
    immediate family can take animals to protect their crops (in
    Mass. - not sure about other states.)
    
    The right is _not_ transferable to others.

    In NH it is legal for resident landowners (including minor children) 
    to hunt on the land where his/her house is located. This can be done 
    without a license and includes any game for any reason.
    
    The question is do you have to abide by the hunting seasons?
    I say yes, but could not find it in the guide.
    
    As far as I remember the same goes for MA.
    
    Richard

    In Mass, if animals such as deer are doing agricultural or other pest
    type damage, landowners can kill them year-round, but it requires a
    permit to do so. I have a friend who is having some trouble starting
    an apple orchard, and that is where I heard this. (However he hasn't
    gone this route yet), so his information could be partly or even
    totally incorrect, but it makes sense to me. Without special permits,
    I don't believe that hunting without a license is legal anywhere in
    Mass..

    
    	In Vermont you can hunt on your own land without a license,
    however, the hunting must be done according to all other regulations.
    i.e. you must hunt during the legal season, bag limits, etc... apply.
    Sounds like the guy might just be a braggart and doesn't know what
    he's talking about.
    
    - Rob
    

                     <<< Note 214.28 by TUNER::DINATALE >>>
                             -< It's you land... >-

    >In NH it is legal for resident landowners (including minor children) 
>    to hunt on the land where his/her house is located. This can be done 
>    without a license and includes any game for any reason.
    
    Almost, but not quite.  The regulations explicitly state that this
    pertains ONLY for resident farm landowners.
    
    Mark.

    
    Re: .31

    I saw that also. What's the definition of a farm ie: zoning, 
    size or current use? I have a veggie garden out back, would 
    that count?

    Richard

    in alabama you can hunt on your own land whether it's lease to you or
    you own it out right. you do not need a license but you must follow all
    rules unless you can show damage.

    
    
      This farm that I'm speaking of is a horse farm, the only crops
    grown on this farm is hay for the horses.
    
      I talked to a local Apple orchard owner a few years back about
    deer feeding and ruining the new growth on his trees, also inquiring
    about the taking of deer to control/protect the orchard etc.
      It was then stated to me that the only taking of deer ( game animals
    in general ) out of the regular season for the purposes of crop
    control etc. could only be done by a special permit. The farmer
    would have to prove crop loss due to such to a game warden; and
    IF, the permit was issued, the game would then have to be surrendered
    to the game warden, not kept by the hunter or farmer.
    
      I understand the points being made about a working farm, and the
    necessity to control crop damage etc.  But in the case of my friend,
    he was just flagrantly breaking the law under the guise that if
    one owns this much land than the game laws no longer pertain to
    priveledged-character's like himself. This attitude is both cocky
    and unacceptable in my opinion.  Seeing as how he's single and probably
    making 40k+, I guess he can't afford a licence! I'll buy him one
    and mail it to him for Christmas!!!!   FLAME-OFF---_______.
    
                        << Jeff >>

    re .30
    Rob, I think you don't need a bow license to hunt using a bow on your 
    own land, but you do need a regular license.  I didn't see an exception
    to having a regular license in the book.  
    
    When the blueberry farm people got their permits it made many of their 
    neighbors angry, as they were setting up a regular slaughter during 
    the night using lights.  
    
    Before this blueberry farm started selling the berries commercially a 
    short number of years ago (perhaps 3) in Richmond, the neighbors were 
    suspecting that it was only an excuse to take a lot of deer out of 
    season.  But I wonder if they couldn't have simply put up a fence? 
    
    N

    
    re .35
    
    Nancy,
    
    Look on page 2, under Exceptions, a) - basically says you do NOT need
    a license to hunt on your own property.
    
    Kevin

    -1
    Thanks, Kevin.  We've been buying licenses all along, $30+ worth
    apiece.  ....+ giving to non-game wildlife funds.  
    
    Nancy

    
    	And KEEP buying them Nancy, it's a cheap way to enjoy the outdoors!
    Besides, the F&G needs the money now more than ever.  Even if you do
    hunt on your own land.
    
    - Rob
    

    
    re .37
    
    Nancy,
    
    Ditto what Rob said...
    
    Kevin

    Of course I'll keep buying them.  I know some people may complain but 
    I will, even though the price may go up next year.  We still cost less 
    than some other states.  
    
    (Besides I need one for other places in the state....)
    
    N       ;)

    	I've been hunting for more decades than I want to think about but
    I signed my 11 year old son and myself up for a hunter safety course
    last October.  Great course and I feel very good about my son's
    respect for firearms the environment, etc.  A warden spoke to us
    during one of the 6 two-hour sessions.  Indeed, in Mass, one need NOT
    purchase a license to hunt on their own land but all game and firearms
    regulations must be followed, ie., you can't shoot game out of season.
    Also, you can even shoot from inside your own house as long as you
    don't  break any laws.  The law about not shooting within certain
    distance from an inhabited structure DOESN'T apply to your own
    dwelling.
    
    Andy
    
    

    While turkey hunting, I had a shot at 45 yds but there were several
    birds in my gun's pattern. I decided to wait for a clear shot at just
    one bird. Needless to say that clear shot never developed.    :^(
    
    After telling my story to my hunting comrades, they both gave me a hard
    time about not shooting. My argument was, "my permit is for one bird, I
    am not going to shoot at a bunch of birds hoping to get one and
    possibly maim and/or kill others at the same time.
    
    Don

    You done good.  
    
    Mark.

    
    Well If we're going to tell sad stories here is mine... Went to Maine
    deer hunting for the first time this year, opening day saw a spike but
    he was too far and going the other way. On thursday I was feeling ill
    due to some Chili we had the night before and I was headed towards the
    truck. Anyway got within 20 yards of truck and out walks a 10 pointer,
    wind is from him to me but I'm in the middle of an old logging road and
    in the open, down to one knee so I won't be seen (deer was only 50
    yards from me). I aim and instead of taking a quick snap shot I wait
    till he's going to cross the road then I'll take a broadside shot. Of
    course the deer decides to walk up the path away from me, he goes over
    a small hill, I run up to see where he is and he's gone. I'm still
    kicking myself saying I should have taken the snap shot but I still
    feel good knowing I did the right thing by waiting for a quick clean
    kill shot. That was the last deer I saw all week and my only chance
    at a good buck in years. Oh well...
    
                                  Walt

    While we are on the subject of sad stories I'll join ya and tell you
    mine. We went to my favorite archery only hunting spot in N.H. saturday
    and I sat were I usually sit, by a big bolder that conceals me well.The
    area is tall pines with alot of dead branches but I had shooting lanes
    to my left and just about in front of me. My friend was in a tree stand
    about 30 yards from me. We had some Tinks set up on the ground and as I
    found out later, there were scrapes every where. About 10:00 am I see
    movement about 40 yards to my left, I thought, geez thats to big to be
    a deer it must be a hunter, then I see the rack, I quickly get into a
    kneeling position and reach for my bow when the broad head scrapes up
    against the bolder, I stoped my movement fearing it heard me, big
    mistake stoping, next thing I now it's ten yards to my left turning
    broad side and passing in front of me by one of my canisters, I draw
    slowly and am amazed that it didnt see me, I tried to put a pin on
    it but its to my right now and there are branches in front of him and I
    fear that the arrow will deflect and punch it. I passed up the shot..
    It went under my friends stand and stoped, he goes to draw and it looks
    right up at him and runs out about thirty yards, he takes a shot but
    misses..This deer looked like a ten or twelve pointer in the 200+ pound
    range..It was huge...Oh well ,kick me please...
    
    Gus

The past few years I've had a situation that I don't particularly care
for, but am not sure as to the right or wrong of it.  I'd like some
opinions.

For the last 3 years, I have hunted with several older hunters.  And
I do mean older.  I'm 41, and on one hunt was the youngest
in camp.  Two of the older hunters are in their early to mid 70s, and
one is in his mid 60s.  The one in his 60s is my dad, and one of the
others is the father of friends that I grew up with.  I've know him and
hunted with him for close to 30 years now.  The third guy, the oldest,
is a long-time friend of my friends' father, and I've only known
him for a few years.

Our hunts generally last about 5 days, and we hunt from camp.  So, that
means that there's camp chores to do.  And, ideally, everyone should
do their fair share.  Unfortunately, that's where the problem lies.

The oldest guy doesn't hardly turn a tap.  One year, when
there was just me and the three older men, my Dad had to just about
insist that he do some camp chores.  Otherwise, he wouldn't have
done a thing.  In other years there's been others in camp
take up the slack, so it hasn't been so bad.  However, the two
older hunters do not carry their weight when it comes to chores.
If one of those guys were to get an elk down, I have no doubt that
it would fall to someone else to get it out.

So what do you think?  Should everyone be expected to contribute
equally, regardless of age?  Should we respect our elders and gladly do
their part also?  Should someone even hunt if they're not capable
of fully contributing?  Is it right to hunt if you know that
you're not capable of doing your fair share, or at least make arrangements 
ahead of time for someone else to do it for you?
Where to you draw the line?

For my part, I don't mind taking on extra responsibilities, and I
wouldn't mind giving up as much hunting time as necessary to pack out game
for my Dad.  After all, there's no way I can ever repay what I
owe him, and I'll gladly do whatever I can.  But that's my Dad
and it's not the same with other people.  In all honesty, if I were
to have to give up 2 days of a 5 day hunt to pack out someone else's
game, I would be steamed.  Perhaps that's being selfish, but I
wouldn't expect someone else to do that for me.

Jerry

    I feel that if they are physically capable of doing a chore, than
    have them do it.  Are we talking about things like starting the fire,
    cooking dinner, washing dishes, hauling out a ton of meat from the
    woods, quartering out deer?
    
    
    At the deer camp I go to, everyone does there fair share.  Earl's dad
    does his fair share, and so does his friend Jack.  I think they are
    in there 60's, and do just as much as everyone else.
    
    It's teamwork.  I feel that if they don't do any chores, let them do
    all of their own stuff on their own.  See how they like it then.
    
    Bob "who gets to pick up his deer head from the taxidermist on Tuesday"
    

      I think everyone is capable of helping one way or another regardless
    of there age.  If the older guys are physically unable to due some of 
    the heavier chores they can make up for it by doing things like
    collecting kindling, cooking, doing dishes, etc.  It should be a team
    effort.  They shouldn't expect a free ride.  On the other hand, I
    would be a heck of alot more inclined to help them pack out an elk if
    I knew that they were doing there part with the tasks they are capable
    of.  The guys I hunt with all help each other.  We take turns cooking
    and cleaning up.  When someone takes an animal, someone else almost
    always helps in getting it out of the woods.  It's a team effort. 
    People that don't want to hold up there end, don't get invited back.
    
    Jeff