Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    The man and his son lived in Taberg, N.Y. and were hunting in 
    Otsego County in central N.Y. (per USA Today). 
    
    They were wearing green plaid and no the blaze orange which
    would have been easy to see. 
    
    There were five people hunting and when they saw a deer the
    five spread out to encircle it. The dad thought his son was
    the deer and shot him with a 12 ga. and as the others were
    going for help they heard a second shot, as the father shot
    himself.
    
    g.t.
    
    
    

    Father sees green plaid and assumes deer is chameleon ? Father
    violates rule one of safe hunting/shooting - *make damn sure of
    your target.* Father realizes mistake and administers capital 
    punishment to self. Frankly, my sympathies are all for the son. 

>the 'hunter orange' is a red herring

 Absolutely.

>    Father sees green plaid and assumes deer is chameleon ? Father
>    violates rule one of safe hunting/shooting - *make damn sure of
>    your target.* Father realizes mistake and administers capital 
>    punishment to self. Frankly, my sympathies are all for the son. 

 I also have compassion for the father. He did make a mistake, true. But
it sure was costly. To my mind, it's a tragedy all around, the fact that
it was preventable notwithstanding. You really have to see more than movement
to be shooting. Why don't people realize this?

    
    ref .3 
    
    I agree with you.  I often listen in amazement to those of perfection
    belittle others for mistakes.  Yet when they make a mistake they
    transfer the blame to others or some malfunctioning device.  Its true  
    the father made a grave mistake, but not there being there to witness  
    the incident, and not having more information how can he be judged?    
    Having been remotely involved with a situation were a man watched two  
    of his daughters burn to death and there wan't a thing he could do.    
    The father told me of his frustrations and the grief he still lives
    with today, and how he had considered suicide.   Some are stronger than 
    others, the boy may have been the father's life.  This would not excuse
    the action but perhaps help to explain the why of the action. 
    Let the dead rest.
    
    Leonard

    AMEN!   Leonard, give me a call. dtn 385-7201.
    
    
    bob
    

    
    I live in England UK where the gun laws are strict compared with the
    US.
    I agree with all of you that the unfotunate killing was not related
    directly to hunting. The tool used makes no real difference to the
    outcome.
    I live 25 miles from the scene of Englands biggest single mass killing
    by one person at one time. It happened in a small, quiet village
    without warning or reason. If it can happen under those circumstances it  
    can happen anywhere. 
    As far as knives go it would make life in the kitchen difficult if they
    were abolished. The attractive thing about guns is that you can be
    remote from the scene of the crime (if you are a good shot) thus making
    the act less personal.
    
    Martin
    

    
    
    	I'll put in my $.02 worth.... I just got back from Upstate
    	NY visiting relatives and my uncle had an interesting
    	comment on this incident...
    
    	"These guys seem to miss deer but they never seem to miss
    	a man...."   How sadly true that is.....
    
    	It's not HUNTER ORANGE that is the cure-all here, as noboby
    	says I can't take a walk through the woods with anything
    	I want on !! Only HUNTERS need abide by the Hunter Orange
    	law while they are HUNTING...  I believe Education and proper 
    	Game Identification is the "key"....
    
    	The sad part is that most non-hunters stay out of the woods
    	during hunting season beacuse of the "crazy hunters out there"...
    
    	I take exception to this and it leaves me with a sour taste,
    	that folks see hunters in this fashion... I wish that I could
    	change that opinion, but I'm not sure how that can be done...
    
    	Maybe some day.......
    
    
    
    
    	On another note....
    
    	I was looking at the local paper while I was in NY and there
    	was a story about an EPO (Game Warden) that was arrested for
    	"allegedly" jacking deer on Posted DEC (Department of Environmental
    	Controls) property.... More "ammunition" for the media...
    
    
    
    						~Mike~

	I really don't want to get into the mode of "tragic
	occurrence => we need to fix this => try to ban something
	that we don't like (whether relevant or not)". Somehow 
	there seems to be enough of that attitude around these
	days.

	On the other hand, I can't help wondering with every
	accident I hear about whether anything sensible could
	have been done to help prevent it? Not that accidents
	or tragedies can be avoided totally, I know that is
	unrealistic. But... I can't help thinking about the
	discussion we had some time ago regarding things like
	mandatory hunters education etc.

	I'll be the first to acknowledge that I don't know the
	particulars of this one indident - i.e. was it a "sound-
	shooting", had hunters safety education been taken etc. etc.

	To me the idea of education is just so attractive, not
	only from the perspective of safety, but also because
	all sorts of other stuff (like wildlife ecology, ethics
	etc) can easily be made part of the same curriculum.

	Not intending to open a can of worms here. 

							- Mike

RE: .7
        
>    	I take exception to this and it leaves me with a sour taste,
>    	that folks see hunters in this fashion... I wish that I could
>    	change that opinion, but I'm not sure how that can be done...
>    
>    	Maybe some day.......
    
    Mike,
    
    Not to defend the "anti's" or the way people see hunters (in general).
    But, we have to understand people. People do not see the good part of
    anything (generalization here) but prefer to see the bad. I work in a
    service organization and no matter how well we do for months at a time,
    its the one slip up that everyone remembers and keeps bringing up. Its
    that way with the hunters too. 
    
    We (noters) are a different breed. There is nothing in this notes
    conference that even hints of unethical practices, and we all advocate
    safety first and foremost. You never hear about the shot that was never
    taken because of ...  not sure of the backdrop, or didnt have a clear
    shot, or couldn't see what it was... etc. Its only the negative stories
    that are told and thats what people draw their conclusions from. The
    media and the anti's are partially to blame for the stories that come
    out.
    
    As for changing people's opinions it will only be done thru open
    discussion. How do we tell and show people that the majority of hunters
    are doing things the correct and proper way? I wish I knew. I know, get
    everyone to buy a PC, make them read this conference. They'll all see
    the light and DEC will make some money and keeps us all employed!!  :^)
    
    
    Don

    
    
    HELLO,
    
    	EDUCATION???!!! BY ALL MEANS!!
    
    	Sorry for the shouting, but this is a very sore subject for me.
    	About 2 years ago I was accidentally shot while hunting. Obviously
    	not fatal and fortunatly not seriously, but very close to both.
    	It was during a cotton-tail hunt in southeast Louisana (CAJUN
    	COUNTRY) when a hunter (with my hunting party) who I could see
    	plain as day, shot at movement.....ME!!!. He shot me with a 20
    	guage #71/2 shot peppering me from my head down to my thigh at
    	about 20 yards away. Luckily I was wearing heavy clothing and most
    	of the shot bounced off of my back. But with little or no
    	imagination, it isn't hard to realize just how bad it could have
    	been. Had this person been properly educated in hunter safety,
    	the accident could have been easily avoided. Needless to say ,
    	the incident cured him from ever hunting again (thank God) at 
    	least with us.
    
    				For whatever its worth?
    
    					Bob

Last night when I got home I looked at the local paper and there was a headline
"Dad shoots son in a hunting accident". First I thought that it was an old
paper, but it has happened again. A 61 year old man shot his 33 year old son
while hunting in Sullivan County N.Y. Both were from my town.

The father thought he saw a deer 50 yards away and fired a series of shots
from his .308 at it. One of the shots hit the son in the chest. According to 
the state police the accident took place at 4:30 PM (this is just after
sunset) and there was some question as to whether they should have been
hunting at all at that hour. The son was wearing a "red uniform" (paper's
words not mine - so much for safety clothing), but the father could
probably not see it at that hour. Police did not file any charges.

Personally, I think that people better wake up and start treating these
incidents like criminally negligent homicides rather than "hunting accidents".
If you shoot at what you think is a deer and it turns out to be a person 
that is criminal negligence not an accident. The only way to discourage these
idiots from blasting away at anything that moves is to attach a serious penalty
to the tragic consequences of such action. I would also like to see mandatory
marksmanship certification along with the mandatory hunter safety certification.
Some people can't shoot so they just spray the woods and hope they
hit the deer.

    Where in Sullivan County was this?
    
    thanks
     Jeff

    This is a note of a different tragedy.  In my "GEORGIA OUTDOOR NEWS
    (GON)" the very first article was about a unfortunate hunting accident
    that damn sure could have been prevented.  
    
    Two hunting buddies that were in there 40's, and have known each other
    since their teens, went hunting one weekend.  These guys were tight,
    they even lived within three houses of each other.  Any way, guy A
    is on his stand and catches sight of a buck moving into a thicket he
    is hunting.  He loses sight of the buck.  He sees MOVEMENT in the
    thicket and shoots at the MOVEMENT at a distance of 20 yds with a 4
    power scope on his .30-06.  Needless to say, the bullet goes in behind
    the ear of his buddy, hunter B, who is now dead.  When  the sheriff did
    the investigation, dead hunter b had his orange vest in his pocket. 
    Alot of good it did him there.
    
    Who is at fault.  They both are wrong.  BUT, Hunter A, who shot , is at
    fault.  DON'T SHOOT AT MOVEMENT.  SHOOT AT DEER!!!  Where your orange,
    your best friend could pull the trigger.  Anyone could get the "Fever".
    Nobody is innocent.  Be on the DEFENSIVE.  It can happen on private
    land to.  Anyway, I hope they prosecute hunter A under the "Pritch
    Morgan Bill".  That would put him in the slammer for negligence with a
    firearm, and felony manslaughter, or murder.
    
    All to often, we hear talk about the anti's, etc.  We really need to
    watch out for our own to.  That is another disadvantage of public land
    hunting.  You don't know who you are hunting with.
    
    safe hunting, but good hunting.
    bob
    

    
    
    re .13
    
    Hunter B was not at fault as you said.  The responsibility lies in
    the one doing the shooting.  Maybe the problem is that people expect
    hunters to be wearing orange, and if it isn't orange then it must be
    a deer.
    
    I don't wear orange, I wear a red checked coat, and hunt with people
    who wear nothing but green check.  I wouldn't shoot at anything that
    I wasn't 110% sure it was a deer, and damnit I know what a deer looks
    like, and it doesn't look anything like a human, even if he was dressed
    in full camo fatigues.  These darn fools who are so trigger happy, and
    have to get a deer at all costs are making this unsafe for us who know
    what we're doing.
    
    Maybe it's time for some serious hunter education, field classes etc.,
    and how about laws that make it illegal to hunt while intoxicated?
    There aren't any in VT.
                           
    Kevin

>    Where in Sullivan County was this?

The paper said Rockland. I don't know if there is a town of Rockland or
the reporter was confused because the two people were from Rockland County.
In any case the call was placed, via cellular phone, to the state police in
Kingston. They forwared the call to the state police in Liberty. The paper
had a map with a dot in the northeast part of Sullivan.

    What needs to be done is put a picture of a deer next to your scope,
    then when you THINK you see a deer, look at the picture and compare, if
    it is match, put your finger inside the trigger guard.
    
    bob
    

    Rockland is where we hunt out there.  Scary thought.
    
    Jeff

    
    
        I am not sure of the date of this accident, but about 10 miles from
    where I live a 24 year old guy was shot and killed last week.
    
       The 2 hunters were walking along a hedgerow, one on each side when
    the one guy saw movement shouldered his gun pushed the safety off and 
    fired killing his BROTHER IN LAW,, the accident happened at 5:05 PM....
    
      There are criminal charges pending, there's more to the story than
    just a hunting accident! this dead hunter left a wife and a 2 year old 
    girl. 
       Neither hunter was wearing safety colors, when are people going to 
    start using common sense, if your not woried about yourself cause you
    know whats right or wrong, but what about the next guy, you may not
    even know this person.
    
                                 Lee
    

    On a positive note, Maine just completed its second straight hunting
    season without a hunting related fatality.  This is the first time ever
    that the season has been fatality free for 2 consecutive years.
    
    Of the few injuries that ocurred, all but 1 were self-inflicted.
    
    Mark.

>    fired killing his BROTHER IN LAW,, the accident happened at 5:05 PM....
    
>      There are criminal charges pending, there's more to the story than
>    just a hunting accident! this dead hunter left a wife and a 2 year old 
>    girl. 
>       Neither hunter was wearing safety colors, when are people going to 
>    start using common sense, if your not woried about yourself cause you

Not a hunting accident. This is a poaching incident unless they were hunting
raccoon with a .22. At 5:05 PM it is dark and illegal to hunt. Safety colors
would not help. The Sullivan county accident happened at 4:30 which is
also during illegal hours, however, there is some room for doubt (was it 4:30 
or was it 4:20). At 5:05 it is pretty clear that the shot was taken illegally.
Perhaps that is why there are charges pending.    

    
    
       At 5:20 last night there was still light enough to shoot but the
    snow helped that I am sure, these 2 guys were in open fields on on each
    side of the hedgerow., but true it was past the legal hunting hour's.
    
       It doesnt matter what time the accident happened they are all a
    tragedy.
    
        RE: a few back- Strict hunter Education........
    
       Being an instructor myself I dont feel at all that its the hunter
    Education insructors fault!!! this was covered elsewhere in this file
    but to defend them again...,
        ANY person can take hunters ed  be an excelent student, be the
    safest person in the class and 2 months after the class accidently
    shoot someone! we are INSTRUCTORS NOT BABYSITTERS we cannot go out with
    everyone of our students to make sure they dont shoot someone!
      we do try to weed out the bad apples of the class but like I said the
    person can be an angel in school but be a devil at home! we cant forsee
    what the person will do out in the woods.
    
                                                 Lee
    

    Bottom line on shooting light is that your allowed 30 minutes
    additional time after sunset.... period  Regardless of how well people
    can see, it's very deceiving right now with the snow as it appears
    lighter than it really is.
    
    There is a time chart for each State...  Monday, sunrise was @ 7:07 AM 
    (Mass) which meant that the earliest you could legally shoot was
    6:37 AM
    
    Don't have the chart with me here at work , I carry it with me in my 
    pack, so i'm not sure what the sunset was, but it hasn't been an issue
    since i'm only hunting mornings before work...  your obviously in the 
    next time zone (NY?) 
    
    Fra

    
    Gentlemen,
    
    	Thank you all for reponding and passing along more information.
    I agree with all on safety colors and education.  Unfortunately not
    all of us grew up in the country and could roam for hours, safely,
    while hunting.  Hence, I support blaze orange.  As for education, I
    can only hope that while receiving instruction, some of it remains
    with the hunter and doesn't spill out of his/her ears upon leaving
    the class.  
    
    
    Re:  .10  
    
    	I, too, have been shot.  Accidents happen, even with education.
    
    
    Barbara
    

              I was at my brothers for thanksgiving and he lives
    by Rochester, N.Y.  By 4:30, it was dark, at least too dark
    to shoot by my standards, so I can imagine what it was like
    at 5:20.......
    	      Strange state I guess, light in one part but not
    in the other...........
    
                 FWIW,
     
                   Bob

I hunt Orange County, NY. The legal hours for hunting deer in NY are from
sunrise to sunset. Sunrise last week was around 7:00 PM and sunset was 
around 4:15 PM (don't have my charts with me). The times for sunrise and
sunset vary by a few minutes accross the state and would be different
for Mass. The time zones are approx. 15 degrees wide so the actual time for
the zone is set usually to the center. Solar time (sunrise, sunset, noon)
will be different for different parts of the time zone. 

Unless there is snow and a bright moon it gets pretty dark by 5 PM in NY. I 
usually hear shots anywhere from 6:30 AM to 5:00 PM. Safety clothing for
the hours 6-7 am and 4-5 PM should include a light of some sorts since 
apparently there are people that shoot even if it is too dark to see your
target clearly. The problem in NY is that you can't carry a light and a
rifle/shotgun at the same time. I believe that the gun has to be "broken
down", not just unloaded, to be 100% legal. I think I entered a note somewhere
about using a penlight. A nice bright LED will also do. Technically, you
violate the law, but the probability of arrest and conviction is pretty low
since neither the penlight (if you use the cheap kind that can't throw a beam)
nor the LED can be used to spotlight. The probability of getting shot if you
do not carry a light on your way to or from your hunting spot is much higher.

That takes care of us hunters. What about hikers, bikers, campers, fisherman,
etc. There really is no substitute for making sure of your target and backstop.