Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    You said you have a BLR  in 308. Just go out and get another one
    in 30-06. Browning now makes them in the long action. You are already
    used to a BLR so a new one should fill the bill nicely.
    
    sjn
    

    Pete,
    
    Guns and Ammo (August 91) just had an article on America's Classic
    Hunting Rifles... They talked about 3 of them, which you happened to
    mention.  The Remington Mod 700, the Ruger Mod 77, and the Winchester
    Mod 70.
    
    the article goes on to talk about the differences and similarities of
    each...  their bolts/recievers/triggers etc...  
    
    Receivers:
    
    The Remington is Milled from a solid piece of 4140 chrome-moly bar
    stock. The receiver is round and the lug is a seperate piece of steel
    clamped between the face of the receiver and the barrel, allowing for
    easy/tight bedding, and more contact surface.
    
    The Winchester is machined from a forged billet of chrome-moly.  The
    received is flat bottomed, and has an integral lug, which is more
    difficult to bed.  Winchester uses thermoplastic to get a tight fit.
    
    The Ruger receiver is investment cast, with a small recoil lug and a
    flat bottom on the receiver.  Ruger uses an angled front bedding screw
    to pull the down and back into the stock to firmly seat it in the
    stock.
    
    triggers:  all 3 are override designs with adjustment for weight of
    pull.  the Remington is enclosed, and the better of the 3.
    
    Bolts:
    
    All 3 models are guided for smother movement, all three employ 2 large
    front located Mauser style locking lugs.  All 3 utilize a plunger style
    ejector set in the bolt face.  bot the rem and win are machined from
    bar stock, each having an different number of seperate peices which
    makeup the bolt assembly.  The ruger is investment cast.
    
    Ruger uses a large non-rotating exractor claw, made famous by Mauser,
    but it does not provide controlled feeding like the mauser. The
    cartridge is simpley pushed ahead of the bolt, like the Rem and Win. 
    The extractor slips over the case rim as the round chambers.
    
    Safety's:
    
    Both the Rem and Ruger use a 2 position safety, while the Win has the
    time tested "3 position" safety.  All are well engineered.
    
    Receivers are drilled and tapped for scope mounting on both the Rem and
    Win. but the Ruger is milled to accept Ruger rings, which is initially
    cheaper because they ship the rings with each gun, but does not allow
    the shooter to use the mounts of his choice.
    
    Stocks:
    
    All three come in a variety of different models which should fit
    anyones need.  It's all up to personal preference.
    
    Read the article if you get a chance.
    
    
    How bout the Weatherbys???  they make a couple of models in the $600
    price range. they don't have the Famous Mark 5 action, but the Howa
    action they do use is really sweet.
    
    Personally if I could afford it i'd opt for the Mark 5, it's the most
    rakish styled stock of all the bolts available (my opinion), very 
    sleek, but not for everyone.  Others prefer the classic straight stock.
    Remington, has a whole slew of styles to choose from....  check out a
    mountain rifle!
    
    good luck!   fra
    
    
    
    
    

    .1  Yeah, another BLR would be nice, but an even easier way would just
    be to put a scope on the existing .308.  I love the BLR too and it has
    served me well since I got it in 1973 (Only $169 back then!!), but then
    I wouldn't have an excuse to get another rifle, would I.
    
    .2  Thanks much.  Lots of good info there and I'll pick up that
    magazine issue.  I hadn't thought of Weatherby, because I sort of just
    figured they'd be all way out of my price range.  I'll check a bit
    further.
    
    How about the Browning A-bolt?  Anyone with experience on them in
    comparison to these previously mentioned?  I've had real good luck with
    the two Brownings I have (The BLR and a 1963 version of the 12 ga. A-5. 
    I'd tell you what I paid for the 12 ga. back in '63, but I don't want
    to make anyone cry.)
    
    By the way, of all the brands mentioned, my leaning at this point
    anyway, is towards the Winchester.  My wife's uncle has one that I've
    handled and it's a beauty.
    
    I also need to visit a shop where I can get my hands on all these to
    see which one feels the best.  
    
    But the feedback here from personal experience can't be beat.  Thanks.
    Any more welcome too.    Pete
    

    Take a good look at all of 'em and let your lust be your guide ;-)
    
    Seriously, have you decided whether you want wood or synthetic
    stock? Blue ir stainless? Are looks more important than function,
    or vice versa? 
    
    I don't see what an '06 can do that a 308 can't, most especially 
    if you don't handload. Have you considered a short-action in 308, 
    so you have two guns using the same ammo ? Take a look at the
    Remington short-action Mountain Rifle, the Remington Model 7,
    the Browning Micro-Medallion, and see if they don't stir your soul.
    
    Ain't shopping fun?  ;-) ;-)
    
    Dana

    
    If I were picking a rifle for "out west" I would consider rounds other
    than the .30-06 such as .300 Winchester mag, .300 weatherby mag, .280,
    .270 etc.  The .30-06 is not much better than your .308 for distance.
    
    As for selecting a new rifle, I usually visit gun shops for a year
    until one jumps right off the shelf and into my hands.  Then I drive
    around for a few days trying to figure out how I could ever afford it.  
    Then I go back and buy it......on the way to the range.
    
    /brett
    

    up in VT at our camp we have a real good mix of bolt actions, as well
    as other actions for backup or just for special occasions.  But we all
    hunt exclusively with bolt actions.  heres a sampling of what our camp
    uses... all with very good results, no problems and no breakdowns.
    
    
    Rem 700 BDL 308
    (2) Rem 700 BDL 270
    Rem 700 ADL 270
    Weatherby Mark 5 30-06
    Browning Abolt hunter 30-06
    Browning Abolt medallion  308
    Custom built 270 (700 action)
    Winchester pre-64 mod 70 308
    Custom built 243 (mauser action)
    Browning BAR 308
    
    And this year there will be a new addition to the "family", a custom
    300H&H!!  ;^)
    
    Backups:
    
    Marlin 336-C 30-30
    Rem Mod 7600 30-06
    Rem Mod 7400 30-06
    Winchester 30-30 (ranger)
    Mossberg 500 12 guage
    Ithaca deerslayer 12 guage
    Browning B80 12 guage
    Browning Auto-5 12 guage
    
    as you can se we have a pretty good assortment of hardware, but by and
    large we really stick with the bolt actions.  None have given anyone
    any problems, it's mostly a matter of taste...
    
    The Remingtons however, have the most rounds put thru them, as the
    users of these do more shooting than the rest.
    
    Fra

    
    	RE -.1
    
    	So does that mean the Remingtons are less accurate than the rest,
    harder to sight in, or are the hunters better ?? :')  I won't even
    ask who's going to use the 300 H&H.  As for me and rifles..  Chalk
    another vote up for Weatherby Bolt - VGL in .308 to be exact. But
    that doesn't help with the '06 questions.  And you're absolutely
    right (someone in here) about distance and .308 vs. 30-06.  That's
    why I bought a .308, short, fast action with punch comparable to 
    an '06.
    
    - Rob FWIW

    This is all real good info.  Thanks.  More welocme too.  As to some of
    the questions...  Synthetic vs. wood.  I don't want to offend anyone,
    but for me, I'd never consider synthetic no matter how good looking,
    durable, or weight difference.  Just personal taste.  Blue or
    stainless?  Blued, absolutley.  I think there was another question
    about for hunting or for shooting/show.  Hunting first, show/looks
    second, but definitely not a "plain Jane" looker.
    
    About the .308 vs. .30-06 issue.  I originally got the BLR in 308
    because at that time you couldn't get the same gun in 06 and you're
    right about them being virtually the same in terms of ballistics.  I've
    just sort of always had this hankering for an 06.  And to the .270/.280
    followers, I know any gun/caliber is only as good as the person behind
    it, but I am a believer in anything perhaps a bit over done is better
    than possibly a bit underdone.  And since it might be another 15 years
    or so before I get another rifle (I hope it's not that long), I think
    I'll opt for the bigger punch.  I can see this new rifle being maybe
    another .308.  Heck, it brought down my moose in one shot.
    
    Still haven't seen a comparison of any of the rifles listed versus the
    Browning A bolt.  Is that because there isn't a comparison to be made?
    
    To the person that said Ain't shopping fun?   Yeah, boy this is a real
    tough problem to solve.  Maybe one rifle this year and one next?
    

    
    CAL       WT.GRS    BULLET        VELOCITY @100YDS     ENERGY-F00T POUNDS
                                       FEET PER SEC            @100YDS
    
    280       165       S.P.CORELOKT     2510                  2308
    308       165       "      "   "     2440                  2180    
    3006      165       "      "   "     2534                  2532
    300 H&H   180       "      "   "     2640                  2785
      Mag.
    
    
    Any major difference??????
    
    Rick
    
    
    

    I just bought the Winchester 70 in 30-06 last year. Personally I like 
    it alot. I`ve got the wooden stock. The rifle is light, accurate, and I
    think it looks good too. 
    
     About the only thing I might change on it would be to add a recoil 
    pad. 
    
     It`s my first NEW rifle, and hopefully will last me for a while!!
    
    
    				jeff b. 
    
    
    

    I own a .270 bolt and I'm more than confident that I can take any
    kind of game we've got down here in New Mexico, (elk, mullies, black
    bear, antelope, oryx, ibex, mountain lion etc......), but you seem
    to be pretty much against this, so I'll suggest the 7mm mag. which
    also has a pretty flat trajectory out at long ranges and packs a
    pretty good punch, I don't think that the recoil from this caliber
    will leave you any more bruised than a .06, and there seems to be
    a pretty good selection of factory loads.
    
    Carlos

    I have owned both a .308 and a 30/06 and there is a difference out past
    200 yards in the 2 and I will only go with a 30/06 from now on. As for
    a Winchester (which I had in an /06) I would opt for a Model 70
    Featherweight. Real nice rifle and very light too, looks great also.
    Top it with a Leupold Vari-X III in 2.5X8 Variable and you have one
    great rifle, IMHO. The safety on a Winchester is by far better than a
    Remington or Ruger as it blocks the bolt rather than the trigger which
    I also think is much safer. But I will also make a plea for the
    Browning Stainless Stalker. Nice ALL weather rifle.
    							bret

    
    
     Pete,
    
      I bought a winchester model 70 light weight 30-06, 4 years ago, it 
    has the laminatedd stock, I put a bushnell 3-9 BDC scope on it, it has
    the varmit barrel ( no iron sights).
    
       I love the gun I was going to get it in a wood stock, but after
    talking with my stepdad, he has a pre 64 mdl 70 wood stock and if you 
    go out on a wet day he might as well take a slingshot because thats
    about how good his chances are at hitting something.
        He put a synthetic stock on it and he can now drive roofing nails
    at 100 yrds no matter what the weather is like. My gun is light to
    carry all day, is more acurate than I can shoot it, although it bounces
    me pretty hard. 
       I was kinda sceptical about the BDC of the scope, on the range I
    messed around with it with marginal success, then a couple years ago
    I set it up to 200 yrds for a shot at a deer and the bullet hit right
    where the crosshairs were.
      the shot was with a 150 gr silvertip 30-06 FACTORY load federal, it
    hit the deer (big doe) right in the chest between the front shoulder
    blades(she was facing me) the bullet completely seperated the front
    shoulder from the body, the only thing holding it was the skin, we
    found this out when I skinned it down.
    
         Its all a matter of personal opinion but take a look at the
    laminated stocks, explore all your options before you make a big
    investment. And as stated in a previous note you wont find a better,
    safer gun than the bolt actions, and the safety features on the model
    70 bolt cant be beat IMHO.
        
                                                     Lee
    

    I have nothing against the winchesters... and if they had one in the
    caliber i wanted, i'd go with one...  but opting for the featherweight
    in a 30-06 is not my idea of a easy shooting rifle...  One of Pete's
    criteria was for something he could shoot comfortably.  they must make
    a different model that would be a little easier on the shoulder?!
    
    JMHO,  Fra
    
    Still like the mountain rifle for style and looks...
    
    
    

    Opps, almost forgot, the 60 degree bolt throw on the browning is
    something to really look into, tried one out and they are sweet... I
    just don't like the styling on the fore-end tip... I prefer the
    Weatherby look at the tip.
    
    Fra

    Just thought I'd enter a follow up.  I've gotten many replies of useful
    info from many in here.  One of the most useful though was not from
    here and I thoguht others might benefit.  The most recent (August)
    issue of Outdoor Life has an article concerning balistics, velocity,
    and impact power and their interrelationships.  This article was super. 
    While its content might be basic stuff to more knowledgeable folks than
    me, it was an eyeopener.
    
    Essentially it explained why "bigger isn't always better".  For
    example, it seems pretty much common sense that a .30 cal. bullet
    traveling at X velocity has an impact of Y ft. lbs. of energy and if
    you double the weight of the bullet and keep all other factors constant
    that you get 2 times Y ft. lbs. of energy.  (I know there are other
    factors that DO enter in, but I'm keeping it simple; so I can
    understand it ;^).
    
    What I didn't realize was that if instead of doubling the weight of the
    bullet, you double the velocity of the SAME bullet, you increase the
    energy at impact by a factor of 4 times!  Or, looking at it another
    way, even a relatively small increase in velocity, can yield a very big
    return in energy.  (Ain't physics great!  I wish I remembered more of
    it from college.)
    
    Again, I realize that there are lots of other factors, such as distance
    and velocity lost due to air friction, etc.  But this article addressed
    this too.  The article was great and simple enough to understand.  I'd
    urge others to read it also.
    
    My reason for mentioning it in here is that it is changing my views on
    wanting the '06.  For what I'm looking for, maybe a roughly .30 cal.
    magnum better suits.  And my shoulder could take the hit I'm sure.
    

    re.16 There's a flip side to that - if two bullets weigh the same,
    and start with the same muzzle velocity, but one is more 
    aerodynamic, the more aerodynamic bullet will retain velocity,
    and thus retain energy proportional to the *square* of the 
    improved velocity. Put in practical terms, a 280 Remington with
    150 grain bullets, at 2700 fps, hits harder than a 30-'06 with 
    the same 150/2700 at long range because of the better ballistics 
    of the slightly thinner bullet. At closer ranges you wouldn't 
    notice the difference. 
    
    

    	My choice is a Styer Manlicher.  I have two of those and they are
    the best (also the best price, $$$).  Anything from .270 to .300wm will
    work well.  I have just about one of everything from .22 to .340
    Weatherby Mag.  I find myself using the gun that functions the
    smoothest within a range of caliburs that I want to use on the hunt.
    Go for a Styer with a Zeiss scope.
    
    Scott

    I guess I'll wrap this one up since I'm the one that started the note. 
    After a lot of advice and good help from several noters, I bought a
    good used Remington BDL 7mm magnum.  I had my reservations about the
    whack I'd take in the shoulder having nver shot magnums before, but
    after a few rounds I was pleasantly surprised.  Not too bad a jolt
    after all.  (And besides, any time I've fired at game, the autopilot
    goes on and I've never once felt the kick anyway.)
    
    From studying the charts, the advice received, and also from reading
    that article in Outdoor Life, I'm real happy with my choice.  The rifle
    is topped with a Redfield 3x9.  I'm confident that this rifle/caliber
    will do anything I ask of it.
    
    I still don't have that '06, but maybe when I get a few more bucks
    together..........???????
    
    Pete
    

    
    Pete,
     like you I was looking at the 30-06's and found a Savage 110B that
    I really liked. Dont ask me how but a 7mm REM MAG is now in my gun
    cabinet. I had ALOT of reservations about buying that gun. I really
    wanted an 06 but after reading up on the 7mm I think I did the right
    thing. I can load it to shoot 100 gr hollow points and turn right
    around and shoot an elk with the same gun. (Different load of course).
    I find the recoil isn't too bad and really prefer to shoot it over
    my model 11, 12 gauge. I have some data on handloads, if you want it
    write me off-line and I'll get it to you.  
    
                                             WB

    In practical terms, there really isn't a lot of difference 
    between a 7mm Mag. and an '06. Out past 300 yards the 7mm
    has better ballistics/velocity & energy retention, but unless
    you hunt mule deer in the open it's not important.

	I've been looking at a number of new 30-06 bolt actions (Ruger, 
Remington, Savage, etc.), and today I ran across a pre-64 Winchester Model 70 
Featherweight in (what I consider) superb condition - very tight, very little 
wear.  

	According to a blue-book on guns, the avg. retail is ~700, and this 
one is $595.  It was made between '52 and '63; I didn't write down the serial 
number, so I don't know the date.  Is 595 a reasonable price for this?  

	In spite of it's collector status, I plan to mount a scope and use it
for hunting.  Any comments on this?  Is it the "wrong" gun for any reason?
It appeals to me because of it's sweet action, and historical value.  None of 
the newer guns have leaped out and said "buy me" like this one ;-).  These don't
turn up all that often, and I'd hate to miss out, if this is it.


Steve

	Steve, the pre-64 M70 is one heck of a rifle - in particular
	in the Featherweight configuration! I have not had a whole lot
	of experience with pre-64 M70 prices, but I have been looking
	a bit of late - albeit at mostly fairly expensive sources. The
	prices I have come across basically start around 550-600, top
	prices are considerably above that (although most of those seem
	to be the heavier calibers like .375 H&H, new-in-box etc).

	As you will know, the pre-64 M70 differs in its basic design from 
	the post-64 M70 in the following points: conical breech (makes
	the action very smooth, probably not as strong or as great for
	gas-handling as the Mauser breeching system), claw extractor
	(that lovely feeding mechanism!), standing ejector (much to be
	preferred). As you say, it is a sweet action! 

	Without actually having seen anything to this effect, I would
	venture a guess that the mid-50's was a GREAT time for pre-64
	M70 to have been built. I suppose you have guessed whether I
	would buy the rifle by now... :-) (Btw, if you don't want it,
	will you give me a call...? :-)

	Now to the hardest question: mount scope and use it as opposed
	to just keeping it as a collectible? In the end it has to be
	your decision, I just know what I would do. Since the gun is
	not new-in-box, and since I appreciate working rifles, I would
	turn it into my most beloved (and maybe a bit pampered) hunting 
	rifle. I would mount a 1'st class scope (a Leupold Vari III-x 
	2.5-8 springs to mind) in first class mounts to ensure quality 
	of the package throughout. I know some people will disagree with 
	me, but inspite of all the dings and scratches hunting guns tend 
	to get, that for me is part of the purpose, and although I love 
	looking at wall-hangers, the fact that they are not used somehow
	seem to detract from their attraction for me. Besides, if you look
	after your gun carefully, it will be just fine. If I was *really*
	worried about the stock, I might consider a cheap aftermarket
	synthetic for hunting purposes (<100$).

	I say: buy it (now!), use it, love it! I doubt if you'll find
	an equivalent opportunity next week. :-)

							- Mike
	

    
    
    
        Being the very proud & happy owner of a 30-06 post 64 m70 win.
    lightweight, I would have to say that the gun you are looking at is
    one of the finest on the market and in its day it was probably the best
    gun made., My uncle has several pre 64 m70's .270, 30-06 , and I
    believe a 22-250. he loves all of them although his best deer rifle he 
    claims is his beloved 220 swift. and believe me he has shot more deer
    with that gun than I will ever shoot!
    
        But back to the subject at hand, as I said, the gun you are looking
    at is a fine firearm, and a good price to boot, now the only draw back 
    to a featherweight 30-06 is the RECOIL, I dont know how big you are but
    I wigh in at about 160 lbs and when I touch mine off I move about a
    foot and a half back (as my neighbor says) recoil doesnt bother me but
    I will tell you that gun of mine is not a pleasant gun to shoot during
    the summer!
    
        But that being the only drawback to a featherweight, I would never
    let that make the decision to buy a gun or not! and you will love it
    even more after a long day of hunting. and as far as I am concerned
    about a stock's looks, I have had my gun for 4 years, have done alot of
    hunting with this gun and the gun looks brand new! if you use it to
    clear brush then thats what the gun will look like, but if you take
    care of the gun it will last a lifetime with very few battle scare's.
    
         Just my $.02 worth
    
                              Lee
    

 Winchester has reintroduced the pre-64 action in some 1990s guns. They have
a version of the M70 with the pre-64 action; they call it super grade or
something. It has the 24" barrel as opposed to the standard 22", since 
apparently that's how it used to be. They did a write-up on the thing in a 
recent hunting magazine (I think it may have been Petersen's Hunting), and were
shooting roughly minute of angle groups. The suggested retail is $995.

 I'll try to remember to find the magazine and put any relevant info in here.

 The Doctah

	Re: New M70 Super Grade. This "re-done" pre-64 action
	was put into the Winchester catalog after it had been
	established that customers were prepared to pay premium
	prices for re-made pre-64 actions, e.g. Dakota 76 and
	Kimber 89 - not mentioning they seem to have gone broke :-(.
	(My interpretation).

	The idea of the re-introduction of the pre-64 M70 
	features: conical breech, claw extractor, standing
	ejector, is said to have grown out of US Repeating
	Arms collaboration with David Miller (of Tucson) in
	the project to create the SCI "Big Five" Rifles - a set
	of 5 super showpieces auctioned off at consecutive
	SCI conferences (or whatever they call them). These
	rifles - of which atleast one of David Miller's two 
	entries were built on a USRA re-done pre-64 actions -
	were auctioned off at ever increasing prices - over
	100.000 $ for the last one.

	After that project, USRA supplied David Miller with a
	number of re-done pre-64 actions which he went on to
	use in his custom rifle operation. Finally, the general
	public was offered a M70 Super Grade in  1989 or
	1990. Originally the gun was offered in a production
	grade model in 7 mm Mag, .300 Win Mag and .338 Win Mag.
	In addition it could be had in various USRA custom shop
	configurations, including chamberings .375 H&H, .458 Win Mag
	and .416 Rem Mag (all for less than $2000 - steal, eh?:-)

	This year, USRA offered the Super Grade in the "standard"
	non-magnum calibers: .30-06, .270. ... (?). As far as I
	know, the non-magnums are offered with a barrel length
	of 22" as opposed to the 24" of the magnums. Otherwise,
	stock and everything else seems much the same.

	The two major differences between the Super Grade and
	the pre-64 M70 are:

	- the Super Grade has retained the "anti-bind" feature
	of the late post-64 M70 rifles, a small lip cut under
	the left (seen from above) locking lug. This as opposed
	to some pre-64 M70 with a guiding rib on the bolt body.

	- The Super garde has gotten a new gas-block added
	to seal off the left bolt lug raceway in case of a
	pierced primer or case rupture. This is supposed to
	take care of the oldest criticism of the pre-64 M70:
	it's weakness in handling escaping gasses. On some
	pre-64 M70 you might find a similar looking device.
	It is said to be a bolt stop for rifles chambered
	for cartridges shorter than standard 30-06 type.

	I actually bought a M70 Super Grade in May 1991 in .300 
	Win Mag. Those of you that went to Corky Towle's Mini
	Schuetzenfest may have had a chance to try it out. Basically
	it is a very nice gun, good looking classical lines, 
	good but not fancy wood. The rifle shot like a dream straight
	out of the box, but... the action definitely needed 
	some polishing to become really slick, the barrel channel 
	had been cut crooked and would have caused havoc on point
	of impact if it had gotten wet. All minor problems which
	Corky sorted out for me. I know I'll get to like the gun
	(I am expecting to receive it just one of these days -
	why are my hands trembling :-), but as I mentioned, don't
	expect it to come straight from the factory without those
	little snafu's which production guns seem cursed with
	these days.

	Personally, I would prefer a pre-64 M70 as opposed to
	a Super Grade if I could find one that suited my tastes,
	budget etc. If not for any other reason then because 
	the pre-64 model has more historical interest. If my
	tastes ran to a new gun, I would look real hard at the
	new Super Grade...

							- Mike

I did.  Thanks for all your information and advice - it was most helpful in 
convincing me to abuse my Visa card in this way.


Steve

> As far as I
>	know, the non-magnums are offered with a barrel length
>	of 22" as opposed to the 24" of the magnums.

 I agree with everything else you said except this. According to the article
in Petersen's _Hunting_, the barrel length is 24" even in the non-magnum
calibers.

 Sounds like quite a piece. I want one! :-)

 Mebbe some day...