Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    Hunter ethics is a intangeable. It is a certain quality and
    code that you follow. Usually it is something beyond the law.
    
    What is a good hunter?
    What is a slob hunter?
    
    Boy I would like to hear opinions on this.
    
    Now this has happened to me twice in recent years. I got
    to my spot good and early . I set out the decoys and checked my
    watch. I have 12 min to wait, gee it didn't take as long as I
    thought. I'll bet I have this place to myself today.
    Oooh there goes one. 5 min to wait.
                                              
    click clack, what was that? that was the sound of a semi auto
    closing.... I wonder if he knows I'm here? He's a little
    close maybe I should whistle let him know I'm here. I'm sure
    he doesn't really want to hunt this close to me when we will
    be the only ones  here today.   I whistle. twice.
    
    no response, oh he's probably moving right now. This is a big place
    there's enough room.
    
    
    check watch 2 min to go.
    
    BOOM ( I jump completely out of my seat.) what the hell is he shooting,
    I'll bet he, look one of my decoys is sinking.
    
    Now as far as I know there is no law against shooting a sitting
    Duck. Is it un sportsman like to do so? How many of you will shoot
    a sitting duck? How many of you will admit to shooting a bird
    on the ground. How many times have I been in up state and see
    people riding the dirt roads in the afternoon in hopes of catching
    a partridge out on the road getting gravel for his crop..
    
    To do so indicates a lack of confidance in one shooting and tells
    me that your priorities are way different than mine.
    There's more to hunting than bring home the bacon.
    
    Bear
    
    P.S. Hunting is in jepordy and it's people in the above example
    that eventually will be the demise of our sport.

    Last year I had a guy take a shot at a flock of geese we were working.
    He couldn't have been closer than 200 yds to them.  Needless to
    say, it was a very frustrating end to our morning's hunt.
    
    I haven't had anyone actually shoot my decoys yet, but last year
    I did have someone "stalk" up on them.  Fortunately, there were
    no geese in the air at the time.  I wisely stood up from the blind
    and started talking loudly to my partner just before the "stalker"
    got into gun range.   He looked embarassed and left without saying
    a word.
    
    Where do these guys come from????
    
    
    Mark,
    

    I hunted Westboro, MA a few years ago for pheasant, and will probably
    never return unless it is for a weekday hunt.
    
    On this particular Saturday morning (they released 40 birds the
    night before) I arrived at the preserve only to see about 20-30
    other hunters waiting at the gate for the legal shooting time to 
    arrive.  I should have gone home at that point, but I really wanted
    to hunt that morning. 
    
    Anyway, once it was legal to shoot, this "platoon" literally sprinted
    into the cornfields firing at anything that moved.  This included
    birds running on the ground, geese flying at 500 feet above, etc.
    
    To make a long story short, I stayed behind these "hunters" to see
    if any birds managed to stay put.  A cock flew up to my left affording
    me an easy shot.  Well, when the bird went down, I moved to retrieve
    it.  Another hunter approached the bird, picked it up and put it
    into his game bag.  I asked him what he thought he was doing and
    he replied that he shot the bird.  First of all, there was only
    1 shot.  Second of all, even if he did shoot at the exact picosecond
    that I did, it would have been impossible for him to hit the bird
    with a tree between us (he was on my right, out of sight, and the
    bird flushed on my left).
    
    Well, my temper started to flare up, which is not a good thing when
    you're holding a Savage autoloader.  Fortunately, I decided that the
    bird was not worth going to Walpole State Prison for, so I said
    screw it and walked away...never to return.  Just thinking of that
    day still burns my butt.
    
    My father has an interesting theory when it comes to ethics.  It
    involves placing less emphasis on shooting game, and more on the
    education you gain from the hunt.
    
    "Don't let shooting interfere with your hunting"
    
    Think about it.
    
    Mark.

    I believe it is illegal to shoot waterfowl sitting on the water.
    I'm not as sure about upland birds.  It's also not that easy to
    kill a duck sitting on the water.  (Yes, as a teenager I did try
    a few things that I regret).  A duck sitting on the water has all
    of its heavy wing feathers covering its body which I suspect is
    pretty good protection.  You would probably need to be very close
    or hit it in the head.  Easy or not, it certainly ain't sport!
    
    As for early morning surprises, it's nothing worse that being in
    your favorite spot and having the first light of dawn find you
    face to face with another hunter.  When I go deer hunting or duck
    hunting, I try to take a flashlight.  When I'm settled, I leave
    the light so that it is visible.  Hopefully later arrivals will
    decide to take a stand or blind a little farther away.
    
    Happy hunting,
    Mark

    I'm sure this note will get a responce from everyone, but I would
    like your opinions on how you would handle these situations.
    
    Last year on opening day of Duck season, My buddy couldn't make
    it so I decided to head out by myself. The night before I went through
    my usual ritual of loading the truck, checking the decoys, making
    lunch ect.ect. 
                          
    That morning I was at the water at 4:30 a.m  there was 2 other guys
    there we talked for a while and went our seperate ways. I proceded
    out into the darkness in my canoe, set up my decoys and buried myself
    in the brush. It was almost light so i had my last cup of coffee
    and a butt, and got ready. I took a final check of my decoys and
    there are 2 guys  parking their canoe 20 feet from me decoys,
    1 guy has on an orange hat!!  Comes legal shooting time, I yell
    to the guys they won't move, They just plain ignore me. Well
    there where 2 of them and 1 of me so I picked my decoys, called
    them alot of names and missed the best part of the morning.
    Damn I can feel my blood start to boil just thinking about this
    day. 
    
    I was really tempted to rip off a shot right over thier heads
    but didn't need the further aggrivations that would have caused.
    It really wrecked my favorite day of the year for me.
    
    How would you have handled it? 
    
    Mike
    

    
    The only time it is "ok" (my opinion) to shoot at a bird on the
    ground is if it is crippled and you cannot catch it, ie a pheasant
    on the run, or a duck that can swim into the weeds.  
    
    As for run ins with others I have had none like the ones you described
    but I have had one I thought was kind of rude.  Last year during
    deer season I stumbled upon a tree stand.  The next morning I figured
    I would work towards hit and hopefully push something to whoever
    was in it.  Well I got to it around 9 am, (we got to the woods real
    late that day) and it was empty, there were no human tracks of any
    kind going to/coming from the stand in the week old snow.  So I
    decided to have a seat in the stand, since one of the guys I was
    with had planned to take the same path I took.  Well after about
    an hour, a guy and his young son come along on their way OUT  of
    the woods.  He yells at me from about 10 feet from the tree telling
    me I am sitting in HIS tree and I had no right hunting here since
    his tree stand marks this area as his and noone can hunt their without
    his permision  (this is state owned land and open to public hunting)
    I nicely asked if he wanted me to get out of the stand so he could
    use it, He said "No, I am going home for a nap, besides you already
    contaminated the area with your smell" Then he stomped off.
    
    Remember this is public land, we asked the warden about it at the
    end of the day, and he was on his way out of the woods, probably
    from another tree stand further into the woods that I found the
    next afternoon.
    
    My question is, even though it was his stand, do you have the right
    to sit in a public, unoccupied tree??
    
    I believe I have the right, so I did.
    
    --Bob

    I recently had a long talk at a dinner to fish and game employee.
    He told me that one of the more difficult tasks that there agency
    has is the multable uses of public land.
    
    Just a few examples how the legal use of land can and does conflict
    with each other.
    
    sail boating, power boating and water ski-ing, Fishing.
    some sail boaters don't even want to smell the feumes from
    an outboard.
    
    Trappers and duck hunter in a marsh
    
    I'm sure there are many more examples.
    
    I beleive It is alright to use a tree stand or a duck blind
    if it is on public land and if you are prepaired to give it up with
    out arguement if the builder comes along.
    
    I don't think the builder should say more than, I would
    like very much to use my deer stand.
    
    He does not own the tree, or lay any claim to this land when
    he is not there.
    
    If it weren't this way there wouldn't be any piece of marsh
    or woods that wouldn't have a claim on it.
    
    Sometimes I wonder if we should let them build any kind of structure
    on public land...... 
    
    You would then be restricted to no blinds or portable blinds.
    I know some states have cracked down on tree stands.
    Some states require the remove-al of duck blinds by a certain date.
    
    I don't use other peoples duck blinds but I don't see where
    just because an individual builds 6 or 7 duck blinds in choice spots
    he feels he owns all of these spots and is entitled to keep
    every one out of there just because of his structure.
    
    If he owns the land,or the land is posted and he has permission
    thats a different arguement but if its public land
    No way Jose.
    
    Bear
    

    How to deal with Bozo's:
    
    Go in a differant direction. 
    
    #1 I dont like hunting near people I dont know.
    
    #2 Who knows what a stranger is going to do.
    
    #3 There are pleanty of woods and marshes.
    
    #4 My weekend hunting is limited.
    
    I have seen quite a few bozo's out there, about 7 years ago I was
    at the Bolton flats. There was a cock on the ground between myself
    and another hunter. There was about 200 yards between us, all of
    a sudden this guy charges the bird, the bird went up and was comming
    right at me so I am waiting for it to go over my head ....BANG ouch.
    I am just glad he was far enough away that the pellets didnt penitrate.
    This is the best part, He walked away, didnt say boo to me. I couldnt
    believe it.  
    
    
    Rich

    re. .5:
    
>    Well, there where 2 of them and 1 of me so I picked my decoys, called
>    them alot of names and missed the best part of the morning.
>    Damn I can feel my blood start to boil just thinking about this
>    day. 
>
>        How would you have handled it? 
>    
>    Mike

    Mike, you did the right thing.  I know it s*cks when situations
    like this happen, but the best thing to do is swallow a little pride
    and hunt somewhere else.  Thinking back today, you're probably glad
    you didn't do anything stupid that you'd regret today.
    
    I have another horror story that actually had a happy ending.
    
    In a previous note I related the story of shooting my first buck.
    To expand on the story a little bit, the area I hunt in New Hampshire
    is fairly close to populated areas.  I realized before the season
    started that I'd likely see other pumpkins in the woods, especially
    the opening weekend.
    
    Anyway, I had scouted this swamp heavily during bird season, and
    the stand I selected was on a ridge that afforded me a very nice 
    panoramic view of the trails leading from the swamp.  I remember
    being pumped up about my chances as I had seen deer coming out of
    this swamp on numerous occasions.
    
    I get to my stand about 6:15, and settled in for what I had hoped
    would be a short morning.  About 30 minutes later I hear footsteps
    behind me, which really got me going!  As I slowly turn, I see another
    hunter approaching and he sat down on a log about 100 yards to my
    right.  Figuring he didn't see me, I moved from the stand and waved
    to him, hoping that he would move.  Nothing doing.  He waved back
    and then did something *really* unbelievable.  HE LIGHTS UP A CIGAR!
    
    I was ripped, to say the least.  Well I picked up my gun and literally
    tromped by him, stepping on every stick, kicking up leaves, and
    generally making more noise than a herd of moose.
    
    I walk upwind from him about 500 yards, and sat down in front of
    a big oak tree.  By now it is about 7:30.  This is when the buck
    emerged from the swamp into my line of fire.  
    
    The best part of the whole story is that the buck would have walked
    right in front of this other guy if I hadn't dropped him first.
    It was a great feeling dressing that deer, while talking to this
    other hunter who was noticeably pissed. 
    
    Oh well, one for the good guys.
    
    Mark.

      My cardinal rule of avoiding pinheads is to stay away from the
    WMA's during the weekend.  During the weekdays, its not to bad but
    forget the weekends.
        
      I have had guys who see that I'm running a dog decide that there
    going to hunt with me.  Where ever I go, they go.  There hoping
    that they'll get a shot at a bird my dog puts up.  What I do is
    find a nice comfortable spot, and SIT.  After about 2 minutes of
    watching me sit there and pat the dog, they get the idea that I'm
    not going to continue hunting till there gone.
    
      I was hunting with a good friend and his springer when we dumped
    a hen.  The bird hit the ground running as we sent the dog.  Here
    comes this guy tearing across the field and proceeds to swing on
    the bird, which is about 3 ft in front of the dog.  ALex and I both
    yelled and luckily the guy held his fire.  AFter the dog brought
    back the hen, we left.
    
      Rich had the best advice for situations such as this, move, leave,
    or go home.
    Jeff

    Mark story in .5 reminded me of a time goose hunting last year.
    
    We have spot that is loaded with geese, perfectly legal, but is
    also noticable from a dirt road,  We were down there hunting when a
    flock landed on the far side, well out of gun range.  We sat there
    in the blind, trying to decide what to do when a lady pulls down
    the dirt road and stops.  She proceeds to start yelling at us that
    were "mean, heartless, etc... and that she has been feeding these ducks
    and geese all summer etc..     While she's yelling I can see that
    the geese on the far side are starting to bunch up and turn into
    the wind, they're getting ready to take off!  Sure enough here they
    come and as they pass over the blind we dump a couple.  The lady
    goes nuts.  My question, would you have shot at the geese with the
    lady watching?
    
    Jeff

    Absolutely!
    
    I believe in some states it is illegal for a person to interfere
    with legal hunting. 
    
    Mark.

                 I have always avoided someone else's blind or tree
    stand. I see no sense in settling in to a stand and take a chance
    on the builder coming to use it. I mean, here you are sitting in
    what seems to be an ideal spot, and along comes this hunter who
    asks you to leave. Number 1, it most likely will be a stranger,
    who you know nothing about or how he/she will react to the intru-
    sion. I've heard of some getting down-right nasty. To me, it's not
    worth the trouble. I usually scout well in advance and have my own
    stand set-up. If on opening day someone has set up camp at my area.
    Well that's the risk we all take. Oh sure, it pisses me off. But
    what can you do? I'm not going to stand there and challenge that
    person to a duel over it. 
              As far as duck hunting goes, I hunt over decoys and have
    had my share of other hunters trying to infringe on my blind. This
    is how things are now. There are alot of inconsiderate and careless
    hunters out there. It is just something that the few of us who are
    carefull and considerate, have to deal with. 
              I've still managed to shoot six deer, even with all the
    aggrivation that I have sometimes had to deal with because of some
    thoughtless hunter in the woods. So I chose to just keep my distance
    and hope their mistakes help fill my tag. I hope there are alot of
    you out there that feel this way. It would make it alot easier and
    enjoyable for us all. Isn't that what it's all about?
              Enjoy and good luck in the field!!
    
    

    I was turkey hunting this last year in Mass. It was the second day
    of the first season, kind of cloudy, misty, yucky weather. Dawn
    was late in coming. The area (just off of the Barre WMA) was full 
    of turkey sign. I am on my stand well before light and I'm waiting 
    legal shooting time. I picked a nice blowdown against a big hemlock
    and had a good view of a field where turkeys had been coming and
    going. After legal hours arrived I gave a few soft yelps and clucks
    and settled in. About 20 minutes went by and I called again. I got
    a resounding gobble behind me and well to my right. Sounded about
    60 to 70 yards out. I gave one more cluck and got ready.
    
    What do I see...a guy in full camo bent over with his gun at ready
    stalking through the brush looking for ... me!!! Since he can't 
    see me, he calls (with his tom gobbler call) again. I am certain 
    that had I clucked one more time, I'd have ended up with an a** 
    full of buckshot. As soon as he went by, I packed up and left. 
    
    I'll spend my early Mays in my garden or a trout stream thank you

    Guy

         An article in one of the sporting magazines talked about the
         alarming increase in the number of turkey hunting
         "accidents." Most of the incidents involve a camouflaged still
         hunter, working a turkey call, who is shot by a stalker. 
         
         When a hunter is shot in this manner--that's no accident.     
         Shooting at a sound coming from the brush is a reckless and 
         criminal act.
    
         I too, will stick to gardening in the spring.
             
         Doug 

    One thing that really burns my a** is seeing litter in the wild.
    The area I hunt in NH has quite a few trails and after opening
    day you start seeing the trash accumulating all over the place.
    Even cigarette buts don't belong out there. I smoke, but after I'm
    finished I strip it down and stick the filter in my pocket. Last
    year I was walking a trail and came across a small pile of trash
    leftover from someones lunch. It contained a sardine can, juice
    can and other lunch related trash. I could not believe that some
    one actually sat on a rock ate lunch and just dropped the trash
    in front them. It bothered me enough that 2 days later I picked it
    up comeing out of the woods. Things like that really add to the
    anti's fire.
    
    Keep it clean
    Steve

    
    	I have to agree strongly with rep #16.  I come home from a day
    hunting or hiking and dump pounds of garbage out of my backpack.
    Few things annoy me more than going deep into the adirondacs - feeling
    like the only person in the world - and finding trash.  It really
    spoils my day.
    
    	I know none of you reading this file is a trasher, but please
    do me a favor.  Pick up the woods you hunt in.  Everybody benefits.
    
    Thanks.

         The thing that gets me is how some hunters don't view shotgun
         shells as litter. I know hunters who will chase after a
         little candy bar wrapper that's blowing in the wind, yet they
         won't pick up the pair of shotgun shells lying next to their
         feet! Plastic shotgun sells aren't biodegradable; they'll
         last a lot longer than the trash that comes from your lunch. 
         
         Another thing that qualifies as litter--orange ribbons around
         the trunks of trees. Why someone who calls himself a woodsman
         needs to mark his way in and out of the woods is another
         matter, but let's remove these unsightly things at the end of
         the season. 
                                          
         And how about those cheap orange rain coats that fall apart
         the first time you wear em. Last year after deer season I
         found two of them on one of the farms I have permission to
         hunt on. I carried them out in my game pouch, which is a good
         place for litter as well as birds. 
         
         Doug
         

    re. 16 & .17
    
    	I had just read .16 and said to myself, shotgun shells apply
    also.  Then I read .17 and there are my words.
    
    	I primarily hunt ducks, and especially enjoy the sport after
    pheasant season opens, and most definately the second half of the
    season is the best.  My father-in-law use to reload, so by habit
    I pick up ALL shells i see in the water and toss them in the canoe.
    Then i go through them when I get back to the car.  When I get home
    I trash em, but keep the size my father-in-law use to reload, just
    in case he starts up again.
    
    	First come first serve,  Yeah, I agree also.  I honestly don't
    know how I would react if I came into the blind I built and have
    maintained the past seven years, only to see or hear someone sitting
    in it.  First reaction would probably be to tell whomever to get
    out, then again I more than likely would politely let the person know
    I had built it, then ask if they wouldn't mind if I went a couple
    hundred yards back into the marsh, (the blind is on a cove at the
    mouth of a marsh).
    
    	However, to save this agravation, I think nothing of sitting
    for a couple hours before legal.  This way I 99.9% insure myself
    of getting to the blind first.  This way I get to enjoy a few cups
    of coffee, and good conversation with my partner, I get to see how 
    many people have found, and or try to claim the blind.  So far in
    seven years of hunting this cove I've heard a couple (1 set) hunters
    in the marsh, one pair came in, saw the decoys and left, then there
    are the brothers who hunt the marsh regularly.  

    Bryan 

    I too pick up discarded brass and shotshells in the woods. I have
    made a habit of sorting them by caliber and hull make and bagging
    them in plastic bags. Then the next time I go to the local gun shop
    for supplies for my BP rifle, I trade them in on my supplies. I
    have sometimes gone in to buy powder and game out with a few coins
    extra in my pocket.
    
    So, I have helped to clean up the outdoors and cut down on my shooting
    costs at the same time.
    
    
    regards,
    
    
    Carl

    	This may be a stupid comment on my part but that's because I'm
    ignorant on this subject.  Just plain lack of experience. :-(
    
    	If I built a blind and used it on a regualr basis such as you
    fellows have seem to have done, I'd probably put some kind of plastic
    tag in it with the message "This blind built by so-and-so and is
    used regularly by so-and-so.  If I'm not here today, please be my
    guest and use this and the best of luck to you.  Also please pick
    up after yourself and carry your trash out, I hate sitting in a
    garbage dump."  If the people who occupy the blind are reasonable,
    they'll feel alot better about giving up the spot if you come along
    since you can ID yourself with your hunting license.  If they are
    unreasonable then there's been no harm since the situation would
    have been the same anyway.  It would at least prevent any
    misunderstandings between equally reasonable people who have a chance
    encounter.
    
    Am I off base here?  
                                                                 
    
    Rich

    Sounds like a good idea to me.
    
    Mark.

    Rich, your idea is a good one.  I've seen a lot of blinds which
    have the "owners" name in them.  We use to put up a shingle with
    our name on it but some idiots would rip them down.  Now we put
    our name in some inconspicuous spot, like under a bench.  If someone
    is in it we can point out that we did build it.  To be honest, I've
    only once found someone in my blind, we ended up hunting together
    and he now is a good friend.  I tend to hunt out of the way areas
    where the preasure is light so tha may be the reason I haven't had
    any trouble.
                                      
    Jeff

    
      re .Shotshells
    
       I'm also a "stickler" for picking up shotshells lying about
    in the woods & fields. It's AMAZING how many shells especially
    on WMA's I can pick up in a few hours!!! 
    
    re .others
    
       Some REAL GOOD points have been brought out here... Glad to see
    there are other RESPONSIBLE hunters out there. I've begun to wonder
    seeing the "Jokers" I've seen especially on WMA's on weekends!!
    
       A guy I was hunting with last year had two guys cut right in
    front of our dogs with their 3 (Two Brittany's & 1 Golden) while
    working a field in Barre, MA. But the good point to all this was
    they were pushing their dogs so fast that they went right by 2 hens
    which we promptly dispatched leaving sick looks on their faces!!
    
       I agree:  "Sometimes you win one.."
    
                   ~Mike~

    Here is a good one for you folks
    Yeterday Shaun, my hunting buddy, and myself headed out to our
    best duck blind.  We throw out our coys then pull the boat to the
    back of the blind.  Well we walk the long sand bar to the blind,
    as we get near the blind we find these pits someone dug.  We figured
    they were put some kind of blinds around them.  We as we enter the
    bushes to our blind Shaun falls flat on his face.  
    
    THEY HAD MADE A MAN TRAP at the entrance.  They dug a 3'x3'x3' hole
    put a window screen over it then some sand and a bush.  Shaun stepped
    right in the middle.  His knee now looks like a water melone.
    
    I hope I go there some night this week and find someone that admits
    to have made those holes!!  every step we took we stamped the ground!!
    
    Bassin' Bo

    Bob,
      Would you mind telling us in what area you were hunting?  I heard
    a similar story from another guy yesterday and was just wondering.
    Jeff

    Goes to show , we should be pushing for strong hunter_protection
    laws. Harassment of sportsmen in lawful pursuit of wild game 
    directly violates the right to pursue happiness. The animal-rights
    people are going too far, this is no longer an argument among
    civilized people.

    
    This note reminds me of several bad memories, unfortunately.  I
    have been the victim several times of unethical, lazy, etc..hunters.
    It seems the guy that puts the time in preparing gets screwed by
    the dipshit who woke up the day before season opened.  One example
    of my own happened only a few weeks ago.  Opening afternoon of the
    Vermont duck season, my partner and I have been set up since 2:00
    pm, about 4:00 everyone and his brother pulls into the creek.  This
    one guy trolls around between our blind and the next blind (about
    120 yds apart), looks like he is going to set decoys????  Wind is
    blowing like heck, blowing his boat all around.  He comes over and
    tells us, "We're going to set up just over here, tie up to that
    stake because our anchor won't hold".  I told him I'd rather not
    see him do that, and he was welcome to use my other blind, on the
    other side of the creek (where the ducks were landing like crazy
    because of the wind) he tells us to take a flying leap (not exact
    words).  He ties up to a Regufe marker, 15 yds. off our furthest
    decoy, his boat drifts behind the stake...he is now breaking a Federal
    Law.  Where are the Wardens...??...who knows.  Anyway, they never
    shot their guns, and I folded 2 ducks 25 yds off their bow.  Which
    was very safe, because of the way the ducks came in.  This same
    afternoon the guys in the blind next to us drop several ducks, of
    4 I make out to be blacks.  The limit is 1 per day/person, again
    no wardens...I could go on...
    
    A few observations on the replies:
    
    Stalking decoys-I feel the guy who was upset about someone stalking
    his blocks was a bit to harsh.  Face it, with the right wind and
    spread, weeds etc. it can be tricky.  It is the knowledgeable hunter
    that realizes his mistake before making a fool out of himself. 
    When I stalk I seldon keep my eyes on my prey, I usually circle
    wide and come in from the point of worst view, which helps conceal
    me.  I have come up on decoys, usually the hunters never knew I
    was there.
    
    Man traps-who says it was an anti?  I would be willing to bet that
    it was a jealous game hog, pissed you were in the area, and probably
    doing well.  Our blind has been burned before because others got
    pissed that we would limit out and the ducks would come right into
    us.
    
    Blind marking-oh this is a real good topic.  In Vermont it is a
    law that any blind put in state waters must have a sign permanently
    attached to the blind, with name, address, etc.  This requirement
    is there to enforce the blind removal law.  Blinds must be removed
    by May 15, the following year, or you get a major fine, lost liscense
    etc.  This happened to me this year:  my partner and I built a blind
    in an area I have been huniting for 11 years, we put about $120.00
    of materials into this, we made it so it can be removed, not leaving
    a bit of garbage to litter the lake.  As traditional I had "staked"
    my area with a sign on a 2x4 8' long (with proper information).
    The stake was driven 4' into the mud to deter "stake pullers". 
    That Sunday (Sept. 13, 1987) we put in the blind and put on reeds
    as camo.  The blind was not finished, we had a dog ramp and "boat
    section" to finish.  We left the swamp at 7:00 pm, we had a late
    start.  We left the stake in the mud, less that 1' from the blind.
    
    That Thursday, Sept. 17, I receive a call from a Game Warden, telling
    me, "I was out torching blinds today, yours doesn't have the stake
    permanently attached, so I'm ticketing you, $55.00."  I was surprised,
    pissed, etc.  I tried to reason with him, explaining that there
    usually is cooperation between the F & G dept. and hunters, allowing
    us to finish our blinds, and then put the stakes on.  He said "you're
    in violation and that's it".  I received a ticket in the mail about
    1 week later informing me that if convicted I would loose my liscense
    for 1 year, have a criminal record (F & G violations are misdemeanors
    in Vt) and have to pay a whoping fine of $30.00.  I hit the roof.
    For 1; I feel victimized, everyone does this, this guy is reading
    only the law, 2; if convicted will be very upset that I won't be
    able to hunt or fish of 1 year...I mean I would be furious, this
    is a big right to me, and means a hell of a lot.  This same warden
    has burned several blinds in the area for the same reason, but has
    not ticketed anyone else.  I see his burning of blinds as criminal,
    and have a long way to go before I play dead on this one.  I've
    got a lawyer etc. and get arraigned Oct. 26, this is really stupid.
    It's a major piece of stress for me because if found guilty I won't
    break the law and hunt in Vt, if I was a crook it wouldn't matter.
    I'm the same guy that inquired to the VT F&G dept. about being
    deputized a warden because of the shit that I see in the marsh...like
    the 4 blacks etc....hope I haven't bored anyone too bad, this is
    a major sore spot with me.  So there are legal ethics as well not
    just hunter and game ethics....no one needs this hassle in Oct!!!!
    Wish me luck, hoping/praying the State's attorney throws this out
    the window...I still can't believe this.
    
    Kevin
    
    
    

                 Kevin, I can relate to what you have written. I too, had a
    run-in with a warden. This guy was Federal and there was no reasoning
    with him, either. The situation was this: By my watch, I still had 15
    min. of legal shooting time. I fired at a duck, missed and decided to
    call it a day. Next thing I know, this guy walks up to me, shows his 
    identification and asks to see my license. He checks that, then checks
    my shotgun to see if it's plugged. He keeps my license and tells me to
    wait by my vehicle until he arrives. So, of course, I do as I'm told.
    I must have waited for an hour as he finished making his rounds of the
    swamp. He shows up, finally, and says that I was hunting past sunset
    and of course that's illegal for ducks. I said that I was aware of the
    time and tried to explain that by my watch I was still legal. Then he
    tells me that by his watch I was 2 mins. illegal. I swear! He said, 2
    mins! I asked well, who's watch are we supposed to go by and he says,
    MINE. I couldn't believe it! This guy had a whole handful of licenses
    in his hand with the intention of ticketing all of them, I imagine. He
    then comments that if I had hit the duck that I shot at, the fine would
    be even more. By now I'm really pissed, but I kept my cool and he wrote
    me out a violation. The next day, I called the N.H. Fish and Game. They
    connected me to some head honcho there and I explained excactly what
    had happened. He tells me that I coulld fight it if I like, but, I will
    lose. That blunt, that plain and simple. He said for one, the guy was
    Federal and two it would cost me more to come to Concord, ask for a
    trial and so on. Well it ended up being a $55.00 fine and I paid it. I
    felt cheated and made to feel like a criminal or something. I always
    make it a point to know when sunrise and sunset are, so I will be
    legal. I leave and still here other hunters blasting away. Where are
    the wardens then? It seems that it's the legal ones who pay and the
    poachers and illegals that get away. I still hunt avidly and still con-
    tinue to abide by the Fish and Game Regs. But I have a twinge of doubt
    in their system and how it works. Good luck with your case. 'Cause I
    think you will need it!
    
             Bob

    Another warden story.  A good friend of mine was hunting ducks in
    Maine with 3 other guys.  They had split up into two groups and
    were pass shooting the ducks as they came in for the evening.  My
    friend and his partner had just dropped there last duck for a full
    limit and were waiting by the side of the road.  They could hear
    the other two guys still banging away in the marsh.  A warden drives
    up and goes running into the marsh and returns with the other two
    guys.  Now my friend and his buddy are just leaning against the
    car watching the scene unfold.  The warden starts telling these
    guys that they were hunting after hours.  Allen (my friend) over
    hears this and walks over.  He tells the warden that they still
    have a good ten minutes by his watch.  The warden tells him to mind
    his own business.  Allen walks back to his car and drives about
    a mile to the local gas station and calls the cops!  He tells the
    dispatcher that they are being harrased and he wants her to log
    a complaint!  She does and punches it in.  When it comes time to
    go to court, Allen walks in with the police log with the TIME AND
    DATE and the complaint logged in.  The time shows that when the
    call to the police was made, hunting was still legal (ie before
    sunset)  The cas e was thrown out, they got a letter of apology from 
    the head of the Maine warden service, and the A##hole warden was 
    written up.  Good ending.
    Jeff
    
    P.s. Moral of the story:  Always hunt close to a phone 8*)

 .26   >would you mind telling us in what area you were hunting.

    Jeff sorry for the delay in answering your question.  It was on
    lake Manchuag in Sutton Mass. I have lived on the lake for 17 years
    as a summer seaonal and shaun has been there for 24, and his family
    was one of the first to build a house.  During the off season only
    2-3 houses have people in them.
    
    We were on a sandbar in the middle of the lake far from any house
    or road or anything that would make it illegal!!
    
    Bob
    

    	I would like to know how people feel about the following situation.
    
    	I was hunting Vermont this past weekend(Sunday) and I came across a
    dead dog.   This dog had been shot probably opening day.  The dog
    was a blond short hair mut with a labador type head.  The dog had
    a collar and I would say was not a bird hunting dog. 
    
    	Now I realize that the major predator of deer is the family
    dog.   I know that they will pack up and chase deer all day and
    night.  They are responsible for most of the late winter kill of
    pregnant doe and also of spring fawns.  Dogs will chase deer into
    exhaustion and then tear the leg ligaments.  Sometimes they finish
    off the deer, many times they just leave it to suffer and die slowly.
    
    	There was plenty snow on the ground and there wasn't any deer
    tracks within 80 yards of this dog.   The view was open so I doubt
    if this was accidental kill.
    
    	I have heard of hunters killing dogs while they were running
    deer.  Even though this is illegal, game wardens and wild life
    biologist are somewhat relieved to hear about or find dead dogs 
    in the woods.
    
    	If I owned a dog I would never let it run.  People should be
    responsible for their pets.  If my dog was shot while running deer
    I would be glad someone shot it.  I can't answer for the person
    that shot this dog but I am curious about how other hunters feel
    and would be interested in their comments
                                             

    A good question,  the deer I missed last weekend didn't see me until
    10 paces away because he was running from a family dog.  The dog
    was about 30-45 seconds behind the deer.  I talked with a couple
    of other people and they had all said that if you see a dog chasing
    a deer in the woods that it was legal to shoot the dog and that
    if you gave the location of the body to the game warden and he could
    identify the owner, the owner would be hit with a fine.  I get the
    impression that this isn't so?  Does anyone know what the laws are
    regarding this in NH?
    
    Rich
                         

    Re:.32
    
    Thats a tough decision to make, and although i've said often that
    if I saw it happen I would not hesitate to kill the damn thing...
    it alot easier in theory than in actual practice.
    
    For some reason it just dosn't seem right to blow away some dog
    who happens to be wandering around in the woods.  Now if I indeed
    witnessed a deer chasing display, I might act differently.  It seems
    like I never have the right instrument in my hand at the right time.
    
    Take for instance last wednsday moring (snowed the night before)
    I'm hunting archery, in leominster, not 200 yds from a bunch of
    residential homes, deer are everywhere, so it seems are the dogs.
    I'm tracking a couple of deer into some thick cover when this dog
    shows up behind me (i'm about 50 yds in from the road).  The dog
    is on these deer tracks like a new suit, smelling all the branches,
    my legs (which had doe scent splashed on), etc... Now I had the
    perfect opportunity to hammer this dog (golden lab) on several
    occasions, but didn't do it cause the dog was within probably 2-300
    yds from his home... We end up jumping a deer in its bed, (standing
    watching us walk by, when i see it and make out what it is, and
    register it in my mind that i can shoot it, the damn dog smells
    him and takes off after the deer... now i should have probably shot
    the dog, but couldn't do it... (shotgun..... maybe!!! bow... noway!!!)
    so close to houses, i can see it now the dogs would crawl home and
    do the kivva on the guys doorstep with an arrow sticking out of
    him...  real nice!!!
    
    so I guess what i'm saying is, it all depends on the
    circumstances/location/time/season and the dogs proximity to the
    deers ass...  One thing we can't assume; is that every dog we see
    in the woods is chasing deer and should be nuked...
    
    Fra

    I was under the impression that ONLY game wardens could shoot dogs
    chasing deer... which is rediculous!!! how often can they be there
    and see it happen.... 1 in a million
    
    Fra
    

    I have a Chesapeake bay retriever, tan coat and approx. 120 lbs.
    
    The first reason for keeping him out of the woods is obvious.
    He could be mistaken for a doe by an ingnorant hunter that didn't
    take the time to check it out.
    
    The second reason why this dog is on a runner at all time is that
    I've had more than 1 deer hunter tell me that if he ever sees a
    dog in the woods, he assumes it is running or tracking a deer and
    would blow it away, no questions asked.  I cannot deal with this
    mentality AT ALL.  Its because of people like that, that creates
    an environment where I will not use my dog to retrieve partridge,
    as much as I wish I could.
    
    My dog is as much of my family as my children are and if someone
    shot it in the woods for no GOOD reason, I may act rather irrationally.
    
    Dave

    re:.36
    
    I don't want to be picky bout your choice of words, but what I think
    you would rather have said was "mistaken for a doe by an ignorant
    person who was atempting to hunt"... not an ignorant hunter, this
    implies all hunters as being ignorant.
    
    Fra
    

      I am pretty sure that anyone is allowed to shoot a dog that is
    in the act of chasing a deer, but it is illegal to shoot a dog 
    that is not "in the act", even if that dog is a known deer-chaser.
      In my hunter safety course, one guy said in actuallity that he
    would shoot any dog he saw in the woods.  This really bothers me,
    if not for the sake of the dog, well that dog is someone's property.
    There are alot of other reasons a dog may be in the woods, it may
    be lost, it may be trailing rabbits, raccoons, porcupines; it may
    just be out for a run if you are near a town.  I think the intent
    of the law is to protect the deer, but for someone to shoot a dog
    because they see it as "competition", or because they feel like
    a little target practice, I don't see any justification for that.
       Linda

    
    
       Here's what I was told regarding shooting dogs by a Mass.
    Gamewarden. According to law it is illegal for anyone except
    EPO's (Environmental Police Officer), Police Officers, & Dog
    Officers to shoot dogs chasing deer, BUT it's near impossible
    to trace shotgun slugs or buckshot....
    
    
                       I thought this was a "clever" way of answering..
    
    
                                       ~Mike~
    

    re:.37
    
    If I say that my car was hit by an incompetent driver while I was
    parked, does this imply that all drivers are incompetent? ;-)
    
    Anyways, I believe I qualified that statement by adding "...that
    didn't take the time to check it out."
    
    Sorry if any offense was taken.  It wasn't implied.
    
    Dave

    re:.40
    ooops, sorry for sounding so harsh, should have put a ;^)
    
    not all drivers are incompetent... only the other guy ;^)
    
    Fra
    

    Killing dogs only adds to the anti-hunter sentiment.Leave it to
    the Law Enforcement officers.Hopefully they can trace the dogs back
    to the owners and fine them.
    Killing dogs to satisfy a feeling of power to me is against all
    ethics of hunting.It's not the dogs' fault their owner did restrain
    them from doing what comes naturally.Nobody told them its illegal.
    
    Safe Hunting....Rick

    
      I think the point that a lot of people are missing is this:
    Most of those "hunters" who would shoot a dog in the woods would
    do so to prevent an extremely agonizing death for a deer should
    they fall victim to a dog. NOT to stop competition.
    
      There was a good article in Yankee magazine a few years ago
    about the whole "dogs chasing deer" situation. One NH game warden
    reflected on one of the most pitiful sights that he's ever witnessed.
    He came upon a doe that had had 60% of her hide torn off of her
    body. The dog/s that had done this just mosied off after the mauling.
    The deer was still standing and was in such shock that the game
    warden was able to approach it close enough to touch it. He of course
    put the poor thing out of it's misery. 
    
      This is what typically happens when a deer is mauled by a dog.
    The dog will tear at the hide, destroy the legs, go for the throat,
    and it's usually a "not immediatly fatal" attack. Then it'll just
    break off the attack. The attacks are not done from hunger on the
    dog's part since practically none of the dog killed deer show signs
    of being eaten. It's just the dogs long lost instincts getting the
    better of them.
    
      Most of the blame for the whole situation should be planted right
    on the dog owners shoulders. I've talked to alot of people I know
    that "let the dog out for an hour in the morning". When I told them
    that their lovable family dog could have torn 2 or 3 deer limb from
    limb in that time span they usually say something like "Oh, my dog
    wouldn't chase deer!" All I can say to that is BULLS__T!!!! From
    the smallest chihouhou to a biggest Great Dane, they'll all chase
    deer given the oppurtunity! Which means that dog owners MUST insure
    that their pets are properly restrained AT ALL TIMES unless you
    are directly supervising them. And even then, as was pointed out
    in the Yankee Magazine article, that might not even work. Some dogs
    that get a whiff of a deer take off on the trail and there is no
    stopping them!
    
      One of the worst times for deer is when it snows, and then a freez-
    ing rain storm comes along. Dogs can run 'em down real easy then.
    A deer will poke through crusty snow, while a dog can run on top
    all day long.
    
      So, before those of you out there think that "hunters" are just
    target practicing if they shoot a dog in the woods, try to understand
    what the vast majority of hunters are thinking about when they see
    a dog hot on a deer track. It's not competition, It's that pithetic
    deer with 60% of it's hide torn off, or half it's bowels torn out
    and then just left to die....
                                 
    joe

    Re:.43
    
    It seems to me that you are assuming alot.  Just because a dog is
    in the woods doesn't mean that deer are going to die.  What is wrong
    with someone letting a dog out for a little while?  Suppose someone
    lets out his $1500 Brittany that was trained for grouse hunting.
    The dog gets a grouse scent and starts off through the woods, doing
    exactly what it was trained to do.  A hunter sees it and he assumes
    that the dog is tracking deer.  BOOM.  All in the name of humanity!?!
    
    Does he have the right?
    
    Maybe - Maybe not.  My personal opinion is no.  
    
    
    I know alot of deer succumb to a gruesome death due to domestic
    dogs.  If I saw a dog actually tailing a deer, I wouldn't think
    twice.  But *maybe* the dog just browsing or walking in the woods
    deserves the benefit of the doubt.
    
    Dave

    re .43
    
      First off let me say that I have never seen a dog in the woods
    hot on a deer track, so I have never had to decide if "I" would
    shoot or not. The point that I was trying to get accross is that
    "any and all" dogs WILL chase deer! You seem to be of the opinion
    of those that I've talked to (ie "What is wrong with someone letting
    a dog out for a little while?"). There is a whole lot wrong with
    that! First off, it's against most, if not all town ordinances in
    relation to "leash laws". Those laws are there for a reason. Dogs
    cause accidents when they chase cars. They cause accidents when
    they walk in front of cars and the driver tries to avoid the dog.
    They get into garbage, which, when it happens to my garbage really
    fries my ass!!! And last but not least they rip deer apart and kill
    them. If you let your dog loose, then you should be there to super-
    vise it. That includes that someones $1500.00 Brittany. If you're
    foolish enough to let $1500 worth of dog roam around outside un-
    supervised and possibly get hit by a car (the most likely thing
    to happen to a loose dog) then you should also think about it poss-
    ibly being hot on a deer run where a hunter might be.
    
      Don't get me wrong folks. I'm not for or against someone shooting
    a dog in the woods. I'm for stopping this slaughter of our deer.
    
      Also, it seems that a lot of people think that dogs get loose
    all the time and it's no ones fault. I say BULLS__T to that too!
    You can't tie a dog up with clothesline, or build a run for the
    dog that'll fall apart the first time the dog puts a little pres-
    sure on it. Build it to last and build it strong! Use a choke chain
    on the dog so that he becomes trained to the fact that it'll cut
    off his wind everytime he tests the length of the run. If everyone
    would do this who owns dogs there would be a hell of a lot less
    deer suffering and dying in our woods each year. And there wouldn't
    be any "hunters" killing dogs in the woods either...
    
      Let's all face up to the responsibilities that we all have, hunter
    or non-hunter to one of our greatest natural resources. Our deer
    herd...
    
    
    Joe
    
      

    That should have been "re .44" on the first line. Stupid me! :-)
    
    joe

    Re: .46
      I think everyone agrees that dogs chasing deer and killing them
    or causing their death is wrong.It's a horrible way to die.But this
    topic is ethics.You state there are leash laws "laws there for a
    reason". Well there are laws against shooting dogs. Pure and simple
    its illegal.
    
      Cats killing mice is hrrible.Shall we start shooting the neighborhood
    cats. Where do you stop in the "noble"(?) name of humanity? Just
    those that interfere with your sport?
    
      The future of hunting belongs to us. Our actions today will decide
    what land is open to us tomorrow. Shooting someones' dog (possibly
    on the owners property) is a sure way to see more posted signs.
    Let the C.O.'s handle it.

         Regardless of their noble and humane intentions, dog killers
         in Massachusetts break the law. In taking the law into their
         own hands, they are more likely to harm ALL of hunting rather
         than save the lives of a few deer. A landowner who finds his
         dog dead in the woods is going to head for the hardware store
         and the NO HUNTING signs.             
                    
         I certainly agree that no dog should be allowed to roam, no
         matter where you live. But I think the threat that dogs pose
         to deer is being greatly exaggerated. Dogs, packs of dogs
         rather, do most of the killing under the crusty snow
         conditions described in .43. Also, the deer is a goner if the
         dogs push it onto ice. The lone dog that you see during the
         hunting season is probably not about to eat your deer. Deer
         are fast. What dog stands a chance of catching a deer without
         the aid of snow or ice? 
                                                                  
         Last year while pheasant hunting, my partner's wide-ranging
         English Setter flushed, not chased, a doe past a bow hunter.
         From the bow hunter's perspective, this dog may have been
         running the deer. It seems that some deer hunters would shoot
         in a situation like this. That would be a grave and
         irreversible mistake.
         
         Re .43:
         > From the smallest chihouhou to a biggest Great Dane,
         > they'll all chase deer given the opportunity!
                 
         Three times since the spring, I've spotted a doe while
         walking my American Water Spaniel and my little West Highland
         Terrier in an apple orchard near my house. Each time, I've
         gone to investigate the tracks after the deer fled into the
         woods. My dogs always showed only a mild interest in the
         tracks even though they were less than a minute old. So, not
         all dogs take the opportunity to chase deer. 
                                                   
         I don't buy the notion that the vast majority of dog shooters
         act out of kindness for the deer heard. Currently, hunters in
         other parts of the country are fighting proposals to
         reintroduce wolves into areas where they were long ago
         exterminated. The hunters are not against the wolves savage
         way of killing elk and deer, they're against competition. 
         
         We can only take our best guess at what motivates dog
         shooters. I think it's this way:
         
	         1. Eliminate competition
        	 2. Satisfy a sick desire to shoot something
	         3. Protect the deer heard from dogs
                        
         Re .36, I can understand how you've been spooked by
         irrational deer hunters who say they'll readily shoot a dog
         in the woods, and your fear that your Chessie may be mistaken
         for a deer because of its color and size. But I think the
         risk is really quite small, especially if you stay out of the
         woods during the shotgun/rifle season on deer. 
         
         Sharing in your dog's enthusiasm for the hunt is half the fun
         of bird hunting. Get your dog one of those 3 or 4" wide
         blaze-orange collars, a loud bell, and enjoy. 
             
         Doug           

    
      Maybe I should clarify what I've said so far as to my views about
    this whole discussion.
    
      I don't agree with arbitrarily blasting a dog in the woods
    "especially" if it's collared or has a choke chain. Hell, I don't
    think that I could shoot a dog to tell you the truth UNLESS I saw
    one actively mauling a deer, and a warning shot or trying to scare
    it off the deer didn't work. Even then I'd have a hard time.
    
      re -1
    
      You say that your dogs only showed mild interest in the deer tracks.
    Did it ever occur to you that your being with your dogs, at least
    in the vicinity, could have an effect on their interest in following
    the doe? You seem to also have this "My dog won't chase deer" belief.
    In my opinion you are wrong to assume that your dogs are not deer
    chasers from this one instance, and this is the real brunt of what
    I've been trying to say. There are those with that belief that let
    their dogs run free, and they ARE ALL a public nuisance unless re-
    strained or supervised.
    
      I still don't think that "hunters" are afraid of the competition.
    The thought of a dog tearing a deer apart is the first thing that
    all the "hunters" I know think about.
    
      Also, I would like to bust this myth that deer can "always" outrun
    a dog. That is a bunch of horse manure! Snow, ice, or not a dog
    can and often does overtake a deer. Deer are sprinters by nature
    while dogs are runners. The only time a deer will out run a dog
    of any speed (not a Pekinese, etc) is when the dog looses the trail
    or looses interest. The dog will tire out the deer, and then overtake
    it, but can't take a deer by shear speed alone.
    
      My views: I can understand the motivation behind why some "hunters"
    will shoot a dog in the woods. I can also understand a dog owners
    concern about their dogs safety. Conclusion: Keep the dogs restrained
    AT ALL TIMES and we wouldn't even be debating this! For those that
    have bird dogs in the field, make sure they have a bell and a bright
    collar and no one will be shooting at it!
    
    Enough said
    
    Joe

             
         Joe, I cannot control my Westie if he spots a skunk. I cannot
         control my Water Spaniel if she's on a hot pheasant scent. If
         this hot deer scent was so irresistible, they would have
         given chase, regardless of my presence. And I specifically
         said that my dogs investigated this does' tracks on three
         occasions, not one. 
         
         Furthermore, I didn't give this example as proof that my dogs
         would never chase deer. The point I'm trying to make is that
         deer scent does not bring out the killer instinct in all dogs
         to the degree that you imply. 
                  
         Doug   

    re .51
    
      Really when we come down to it, the point is mute. All dog owners
    should consider their dog a "deer chaser" no matter what. That way,
    maybe the owners will be vigilant about keeping their dogs leashed
    at all times unless under supervision... That is, if they care enough
    about our wildlife resources...
    
    joe

    re .48
    
      Comparing cats killing mice to dogs killing deer is like comparing
    apples to oranges. 1) Mice are not a game animal and are unprotected
    as far as game animals go. 2) Mice multiply much faster than deer
    do. 3) Mice are considered vermin and deer are not. Do you see my
    point? Heck, let's stretch it all the way as far as humans killing
    insects. How cruel!                             
    
      As you said "this topic is ethics". I consider it very ethical
    to keep your dog out of places it doesn't belong "on it's own", and
    thats anywhere DOMESTIC dogs can and will encounter , and run down
    maim and kill WILD deer. 
    
    joe
    
    

    All this talk about deer and dogs brings up something I heard, read,
    or whatever. The topic is ETHICS, but I don't want to create another
    note.
    
    Is it true that dogs are LEGAL for hunting DEER in the state of
    FLORIDA?  just curious....
    
      Smitty

    
    I walk my dog in a WMA every morning. Neither my husband or myself
    have seen deer signs in this WMA. The other day somebody in the
    woods said they saw a deer. I am now worried. When in the woods,
    my dog runs around like a madman, sniffing scents (usually squirrels)
    and just running off pent up energy. We have a bright collar and
    bell for him. I hope that someday when I'm walking him some hunter
    doesn't blow him away. Hopefully the hunter will see me and realize
    the dog is not "loose". I wear a bright orange cap and a bright
    green jacket. I keep my dog in sight/hearing distance. If I lose
    sight I call him and he comes back. I hope my dog doesn't chase
    deer. The day the deer was spotted in the woods and the guy pointed
    out where he saw it and which direction it went in, our dog was
    in the same approximate area. I'm hoping he was not interested in
    the deer instead of he just didn't see/smell it. We flushed a large
    buck on our property one day and the dog just watched him flee as
    we did. Now granted as soon as we saw the deer we grabbed the dog,
    but he didn't try to run after it as he does with squirrels/cats/ATVs
    (which aren't supposed to be in the WMA anyways). I guess all I'm
    trying to say is that I'm scared and I don't know what I would do
    if my dog started chasing a deer. I hope he doesn't, but I'm not
    going to stop walking him in the WMA. I've seen more signs of deer
    on my property (they bed under the apple trees out back) than in
    this particular WMA.
    
    Patty

    
    
    RE:  .53
      Joe, I agree with everything you are saying with regards to people
    keeping their dogs restrained.However you missed my point about
    killing cats.I was exagerating for effect.My point is you have no
    right to kill a dog.It makes you no better than the dog.It causes
    more harm than good and does little to "preserve our natural
    resources".Far more deer starve ,get killed by cars or are poached.

    	A couple of points,,dogs who by themselves don't chase deer,may
    do just that when with others,,"in a pack" so to speak. So even
    if your dog doesn't show interest in chasing deer,if he's loose
    and meets with other dogs,the pack instinct may well take over.
    	We have five dogs,and they don't run loose. When we're not
    home,they're in a strong fenced-in yard,and we keep them in sight
    when we let them run. We only do this when we can go out with them.
    Even then,we sometime have trouble calling them off of jackrabbits.
    	Here in Colorado,dogs may be shot,not only for running game,but
    for running livestock. Every year,horses and cattle are lost because
    of dogs running them through fences and onto the streets. I shot
    one dog myself,because it was running my horses,and our colt had
    narrowly missed going through a fence.  I'm not advocating needlessly
    shooting dogs,but trying to re-enforce what was said in .43 . That
    is that we dog owners have a responsibility NOT TO INFLICT OUR DOGS
    ON OTHER PEOPLE OR THEIR PROPERTY. I would feel terrible if one
    or more of our dogs inadvertantly got loose and were shot by someone
    for chasing cattle or game,,but I'd understand. I certainly wwouldn't
    go gunning for him.
    	Also,I have no sympathy for people who say that they love their
    dogs too much to restrain them. I maintain that they don't love
    them enough to protect them. 
    	I'm not in favor of shooting dogs on sight,but I will if they
    are in the act of chasing,especially livestock,but also game,and
    especially if they're running in a pack.
    	The ethics involved here are "Is it ever justifiable to shoot
    a dog " and I think the answer is SOMETIMES,but only if caught in
    the act.
    	The other ethical question is "Is it OK to let dogs run loose?"
    My answer to that is "NO,NEVER" (excluding hunting dogs when working
    and under the owner's control,or other working dogs who are
    supervised.)
    
    	George
    

        I agree with most of what has been said, but you can
      not assume either that just because a dog is loose in 
      the woods, the owner is an irresponsible scum.  Dogs do get
      let out accidentally on occasion, by guests or children who
      just open the door.  Also a dog may get seperated from its owner
      and become lost.  Or a hunting dog may take off intentionally
      when running.  As far as collars go, hounds are often run without
      collars on.
        I just object to this attitude of "keep your dog restrained
      or else"; it is bad enough having to worry about one's dog 
      getting hit by a car if it should ever get out of your control,
      without worrying about it getting shot by a person taking the law
      into their own hands.
    	Linda
    	( an extremely responsible dog owner )

    
    
    	Just a little note.  I was hunting the same area that I had
    found the dead dog this past weekend when I met the owner of the
    dog in the woods.
    	
    	She had been looking for this dog for quite a few days and was
    upset to know it had been shot.
    
    	She mentioned that the dog is always tied up but they had a
    party friday evening and someone let the dog loose.
    
    	I had found the dog on Sunday and by the sign (dried blood,
    rigor mortis, etc) I assumed the dog was shot Saturday.
    
    	I helped her look for it but was unsucessful(I think someone
    or something dragged it away).  I did NOT lecture her at all about 
    dogs running deer.  All I did was try to help her find her dog.
    She appreciated the concern and hopefully she does not have a
    terrible opinion about all hunters.  
     
       
    

    Generally I don't hunt to close to civilization, so if I see a dog
    in the woods the assumption will/would be it is wild and if I could
    get a clean shot off I do believe I would not hesitate to shoot
    it.
    
    Jack

    Your a jerk if you shoot a dog just because he is in the woods and
    you don't think he should be there! Maybe someday someone will
    shoot you because they don't know if you are a wild man loose in
    the woods chasing deer. We can only hope!
    

    I should have also mentioned in .60 that my first shepard was shot
    in the woods (fortunately whoever did the shooting had a bad aim
    and caught him in the rear quarter and he survived). The point i
    am trying to make is I was more upset at myself for not ensuring
    that the dog could'nt get into the woods as I was at whoever shot
    him.

    re .60
    
      Same here Jack, I do most of my hunting in the wilderness too.
    
      Hunting in an area such as southern NH one `should` assume that
    the dog got loose, especially if it had a collar on, and that the
    owner is right behind the dog... And, especially if you're in sight
    of houses! Shooting a dog not 200 yards from a house is real irresp-
    onsible.
    
      Yet, what if this dog was chasing a deer at the time it was shot?
    Or, what if it had one in it's grasp? I'm glad I've never had to
    make that decision.
    
      I feel that fines should be increased for owners allowing their
    pets to roam free. I'm not talking about dog's that somehow get
    off their chain or run. Usually there is some evidence on the dog
    or at the house to show that the dog broke the restraint. And, I
    feel that this should never happen if they are built to suit the
    size of the dog. But, sometimes this happens no matter how good
    the chain or run is built, and in these cases, should be understood
    by the town dog officer, and by the hunter in the woods.
    
      Better to "really" hurt the dog owner in his pocketbook than to
    kill the dog...
    
    joe
    

    .61 have you been a city slicker all your life ?
    
     I was raised in Missouri and we use to shoot dogs and cats that
    where running around in fields and in the woods. Most of them where
    so thin, they would not have made it through a winter. We did not
    need to see them chasing deer. Wait until a $1,200 cow of yours
    is found in the field half eaten.
    
    You see alot of humans are totaly irresponible. They raise a dog
    as a family pet and when there gets to be not enough time to care for
    the dog they either take it to the pound or take a Sunday drive
    in country, where they let dog/cat out and drive off. Have you ever
    seen a whole litter of kittens wrapped in a trash bag and left on
    the side of the road or dog thrown off the bridge into the river?
    People do this, believe me.
    
    Granted some people are trigger happy and I would revoke their licenses
    for life, if I could. But, there are cases where it is necessary
    and running deer is a good one.
    
    Get real,
    Mark
    
    ps. It's been a bad week...
   

    
     I've been reading this note on shooting dogs and I have very mixed
    feelings about the whole thing. One of the first things to consider
    is when are the deer most vulnerable to dogs. I've seen dogs chase
    deer on dry ground . Guess what ? The deer leaves the dog in the
    dust ! I believe that deer are most vulnerable when being chased
    by a pack of dogs in which case, the dogs out flank the deer, the
    other case is when there's deep snow or ice and the deer sinks in
    or slips, and yet another case is when a deer is injured. In all
    of these cases, if I saw deer being threatened by dogs, I would
    notify the local game warden and let him/her deal with it. I remember
    when I was very young, there was a problem with dog packs killing
    deer. The state put a bounty on these dogs. They probably had
    their reasons, maybe lack of man-power or whatever in the Fish and
    Game department and they needed help. I don't believe that this
    is the norm.... I don't believe that anyone should take the law
    into their own hands. Dogs are not allowed in the woods during
    deer season only, at least in Mass.
     Another instance that's been mentioned is a case when dogs are
    killing/maiming/disturbing live stock. I do live on a farm, and
    normally any stray dogs that come on to our property, belong to
    one of my neighbors. There was one dog that we just put a leash
    on him, tracked down the owners and returned him to his home.
    The owner told us that the dog broke loose from it's chain and
    took off. They were very apologetic and very thankful to get their
    dog back. Shooting a dog that is caught in the act of killing live-
    stock does not replace the cow, or chickens or whatever. Maybe
    contacting the owner can result in getting your live-stock replaced.
    Let the owner decide what to do with the dog, the first time. This
    can also keep peace with your neighbors. With second offenders ?
    My defense stops here !!!!! 
     I train many young, big running, bird dogs. I've encountered many
    that liked to get on a deer trail and were gone in seconds. In this
    instance, part of these dogs training is to break this desire to
    run deer. I think a bullet as a training device is just a little
    too harsh !!!!
    
    pat.
    
    
    

    
    
     I was just wondering how many deer are killed by dogs and at the
    same time how many are killed by motorist or construction crews
    that destroy their habitat. Just for fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Let's shoot any motorist caught running into a deer !!!!!!!
    Maybe the state will pay a higher bounty on motorist with compact
    cars than those with tractor trailers ???????????
    Lets shoot any construction crew caught destroying prime habitat!!!
    Come on folks , lets add to this list, I'm sure we can get really
    creative!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    pat.
    

    .61 ....
    
    We are never ALL going to agree on what is right and what is wrong.
    It's wrong, and illegal, for dogs to be in the woods during deer
    season, PERIOD. If some hunters feel that they should shoot dogs
    which are in the woods, then so be it. The owners of these dogs
    are well aware of the consequences of not keeping their dog under
    control during the deer season. Other dog owners have the attitude
    that 'I am going to let my dog run loose, and nobody is going to
    tell me I can't'. The dogs won't run for long, especially if some
    of the guys I hunt with se thme in the wilderness.
    
    .66...
    
     Since when do construction crews KILL deer? Deer are moved out
    of areas, and the strong will survive. The herd is not in danger,
    but that does not mean that dogs should be allowed to run deer down
    and rip them apart. It's like several other things in life, if you
    don'r obey the 'rules' you may pay the price, in this case your
    dog.
    
     I LOVE this conference, but this NOTE is taking away from it. Let's
    get back to hunting....
    
    Smitty

    re.64
    
    I was born and raised in Alabama and have never been a city slicker.
    We have deer drives using dogs to run the deer to people on stands.
    I've seen dogs run behind deer for hours and never get close to
    catching them so unless there is alot of snow or ice on the ground
    or there is a pack that has a deer surrounded I can't see the deer
    population being devasted by dogs; especially house dogs. I just
    can't see my cocker spanial running down and mauling a deer! And
    if you shot a dog in Alabama for any reason you would be in jail!
    I had a guy shoot my bird dog in front of his house and I blew several
    holes in his car (should have shot him) and still had the guy arrested
    and he would up having to buy me another dog and pay a fine.
    
    And it's reassuring that we have people in Missouri who can make
    decisions on wiether a dog or cat can survive the winter and shoot
    them at will! Surely you must believe in capital punishment! And
    what does finding a $1200 cow in a field have to do with shooting
    dogs running through the woods for no reason? And you have the nerve
    to complain about people being irresponsible about their house pets.
    What a joke! You sound pretty trigger happy to me.
    
    Don't get me wrong, if I saw a dog (or cat) mauling a deer or cow
    or whatever I probably would shoot it, but not for the hell of it
    if I see one in the woods.
    
    FPT

    
    
    If you shoot a dog in Alabama for any reason, you'd be in jail?!?!?
    
    Betcha if that dog had just bit my son playing in my yard that the
    dog would be DEAD and I wouldn't be in jail!
    
    Just for the record, the top speed of a dog (greyhound) is 40 MPH,
    and the top speed of a whitetail deer is 30 MPH. This is from the
    World Almanac and Book of Facts. Granted, the dog mentioned is a
    greyhound, but coyotes are listed at 43 MPH, and a domestic cat
    is listed at 30 MPH. I would say that a dog of any size at all
    from a beagle to a great dane, is going to be able to out run a
    deer easily, especially if the dog has the deer scented, and in
    sight.
    
    You "seem" to be of the opinion that we have NO "dog killed deer"
    problem at all. I would suggest that you contact the fish & game
    dept of the state that you live in and ask the experts. And, in
    the meantime, keep your Cocker Spaniel on his lease :-)
    
    
    Joe

    
    Re.> ?? maybe Pat Perry??
    
    Is it true that it's illegal to exercise a dog in the woods during
    deer season?? If so I don't know what I will do.I could exercise
    my dog in the woods behind my house which my property, but my land
    abuts a rod and gun club. I have heard gunshots very clearly somedays,
    from my house, saying to me that they are near my property line.
    I have nothing against this, but I feel safer in the WMA, because
    I stick to the "roads". I would assume that with 300 acres, the
    hunters would be in the more deserted part of the woods, not on
    the main paths that are traveled by people, WMA vehicles, and
    (unfortunately) ATV's. If it is illegal to be in the WMA with my
    dog during deer season let me know, but isn't it still bird season
    at the same time?? I know pheasants are over with, but what about
    partridge?? Couldn't somebody be hunting birds with their dog during
    deer season?? I don't want to break the law, but I also want to
    exercise my dog or he (and I) will go crazy.
    
    Patty
    
    P.S. This is in Mass.

    -1.. You cannot be in the woods with a dog during deer season in
    Mass. Let's face it, there would be a lot of bird hunters out there
    with a pocket full of slugs if this was allowed :*)...
    
    Smitty

    re.:69
    
    Joe if you go back and reread my note, you would see  that I said
    I would shoot a dog mauling a deer or whatever. And I would certainly
    shoot one that was mauling or biting a child or any person. But
    I still refuse to shoot a dog or cat for running around in the fields
    and the woods like noter .64 says he would! And then he says that
    he would revoke the licenses of trigger happy people. Kinda hard
    to figure huh?
    
    By the way I took your advice and I just got off of the phone with
    the New Hampshire Fish and Game and here are the results:
    
    In 1984 there were 55 dog-related deer deaths.
    
    In 1985 there were 40 dog-related deer deaths.
    
    In 1986 there were 26 dog-related deer deaths.
    
    The officer also that there was no real way of saying for sure
    that all of these deer were actually killed by dogs because only
    a few were actually seen.
    
    Staggering figures huh?! I really don't think there is a bad dog
    problem in New Hampshire. How about your state?
    
    FPT

    I've read all these notes and can only say I would shoot a dog if
    it were in the process of mauling a deer.  Then and only then would
    I ever consider this.
       About being trigger happy, who would shoot a couple of holes
    into someone's car and say they should of shot the owner instead?
    This sounds a little deranged to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
       In central MA in a small town the Fish and Game department found
    over twenty dead dog mauled deer. It was stated in the paper that
    for every deer found you could safely say three more weren't.
    You got to make up your own mind, will you or won't you??????????????
    
    sjn
    

    n'uf said.................RAYJ

    RE:.64    hey chill out on the flaming will ya.... leave that to
    soapbox!
    
    Fra

    re: .70
    
    Hi Patty,
    
    In Mass. dogs are not allowed in the woods during the shotgun season
    on deer. They are allowed in the woods at all other times. The shotgun
    season for deer in Mass. begins on Nov. 30th . I'm not sure what
    the date is when it closes but maybe someone else here can answer
    that for you. I think that this is a good law as a dog could easily
    be mistaken as a deer and killed. I will not allow my dogs loose
    during this time. 
    
    pat.
    

    In Mass you can hunt birds during deer season (ARCHERY)...I was
    in the Groton town forest during the archery season and ran into
    3 guys one day, and another 5 guys a week later...and they were
    all bird hunting....So when i got home i called the Division of
    Fisferies & Wildlife and they told me that it was ok for those guys
    to be hunting birds the same time i was hunting deer....They had
    to have on the 500 square inches of hunters orange on while hunting
    birds...And they did....No laws broken there....
    
    Steve
    

    re .72
    
    One is too many in my book. Like Steve said, for every one dead
    deer found from a dog attack many many more will have suffered,
    and died from dog attacks, never to be found. The problem is much
    bigger than the F&G figures show. 
    
    re .74
    
    I think that we can discuss topics, even though they tend to get
    somewhat heated, here. Soapbox is a garbage pit of worthless crap
    where something like this conversation would be destroyed by the
    mindless liberals...
    
    
    Joe
    
    

    re .77
    
       I think you are a little confused or are new to Mass.. Don't
    get me wrong I'm just trying to "straighten" things out.
    
      1) Bird hunting is allowed during the archery & muzzleloader
    seasons on deer.
    
      2) Bird hunters do NOT need 500 square inches of "hunter" orange
    during the bird season. The only "hunter" orange requirement is
    on WMA's where a "hunter" orange cap or hat is required.
    
      3) Bow hunters on WMA's during the pheasant season must ALSO have
    hunter orange hats (seems a little odd, but I saw a guy get ticketed
    last year for not having one)..
    
      4) The only requirement for the 500 square inches of "hunter"
    orange is during the Shotgun season on deer (this year Nov 30 -
    Dec 9 inclusive excluding Sunday).
    
       Comment:
    
      I also keep my dog "in" during deer season. Too many shoot first,
    then ask questions later here in MA...
                                          
        Maybe we have "thrashed" this topic (dogs) to death?? (No pun
    intended)...
                                                   
                                     'nuf said,    
                                                   
                                                   
                                             ~Mike~

         Thanks for the figures .72. Now we have something more than
         an old song and dance to go on. Certainly this is a gruesome
         problem, but its extent is greatly exaggerated. And
         exaggerating this problem leads to an exaggerated reaction,
         that is, jerks who say they'll shoot any dog they see in the
         woods, and others who fashion their own criteria for when
         it's acceptable to break the law and shoot. 
                                                      
         Let's not overestimate the capabilities of the family dog and
         underestimate the capabilities of the wild deer. Why
         according to .43, a single dog can kill three deer in only
         one hour! I can just see it, Father lets Sparky out on his
         way to work, and the dog heads for the woods and slaughters
         three deer. Within the hour he returns with his bloody face,
         just in time to watch Sesame Street with the kids. 
               
         Re .78, if the Fish and Game figures are wrong, tell us, how
         many dog attacks on deer have you witnessed? How many dogs
         have you seen that were hot on the trail of a deer? How many
         deer carcasses have you found that were surrounded by dog
         tracks? How do you know the tracks weren't those of a coyote?
         How do you know the deer wasn't wounded by a hunter and found
         by a dog? 
                            
         Twentysix dog-related deer deaths in 1986 in New Hampshire.
         How do you think that number compares to the number of New
         Hampshire deer crippled and lost by hunters? 
                                                             
         Doug    

    boy some of these replys are really pissing me off...  As far as
    the reported dog related deer deaths are concerned, these are eye
    witness accounts of of actual attacks taken by game
    wardens/officials...this in no way represents the actual numbers...
    If your ignorant enough to base all you opinions on this your being
    very foolish.  Just for sh*ts and grins, please tell me how 2 game
    wardens can patrol the woods of ashby ashburnham leominster westminster
    etc.... all at the same time and see first hand every dog attack
    or sighting of dog/dogs chasing deer... theres no way!!!
    
    re:.80   "fashion there own criteria for when its acceptable to
    break the law..."
    
    Does this also cover breaking the law in regards to leaving dogs to
    roam the woods unattended... If this is the case there are alot
    of dog owners who are constantly breaking the law. Are you as harsh
    on them... probably not because it dosn't effect you... out of sight
    out of mind... right!?!?
    
    I was archery hunting this year and saw first hand how fast a dog
    can take off after a deer... I hunted the same area for three weeks
    (every morning) and saw the neighborhood dogs (4 of them) on deer
    tracks everyday, and the killer was that i could set my watch by
    them.  Every morning they would come flying past me at 6:15 (probably
    just about the time they were let out) hot on the tracks of the
    deer that had just gone by only minutes before.  Sooooo all of you
    happy dog owners who say your little spot would never do that, are
    awfully ignorant to the facts.
    
    Fra
    
    
     

    Well, I tried to stay out of this one, but....
    
    Dogs are a problem for deer, but only if the deer is at a disadvantage,
    such as in deep crusty snow, weak at the end of a long winter, or
    a pregnant doe.
    
    Re: .69, if you think a dog can run down a deer this time of year
    because your book says so, you're nuts.  I'm from the deep south
    where lots of people hunt deer with dogs.  I've hunted with some
    pretty big hounds, and they never get even close.
    
    In case you think running deer with dogs hurts the deer population,
    the deer herd there is more than four times what is was 10 years
    ago.
    
    mark,
    

    DON'T WE HAVE ENOUGH PROBLEMS ENJOYING OUR SPORT WITHOUT CALLING
    EACH OTHER NAMES WHEN DISCUSSING A TOPIC OF CONTROVERSY?
    
    The use of the word "jerk" when referring to other contributers
    to this discussion not only tends to drive the discussion down into
    a soapbox-like shouting match, it alienates people from the position
    you are trying to present.  We have enough problems in enjoying
    our sports without driving wedges into our ranks thru the use of
    name calling and dripping sarcasm.  Both sides have presented valid
    arguments.  Let's all try to discuss this subject with some sort
    of civility towards each other, OK?
    
    Rich (who probably wouldn't shoot a dog anyway though he'd like
    too)

    
     I'm in agreement with you Rick. The dogs that are running during
    deer season have, for the most part, been running the woods all
    year long. They don't know any better. Why kill the dog when the
    owner is at fault. To kill the dog will probably only result in
    the owner getting another one. I think the best thing to do is
    report the siteing to the proper authorities and hopefully they'll
    follow up on it. I look at killing anything this way.... If you
    kill it you should eat it, or don't kill it in the first place.

    i'm new to NOTES. The last reply 24.84 was in reply to Rick Hatfield's
    numerous inputs.
    I do agree also with note 24.83. We all need to repect each others
    opinions on ethics, after all that's what ethics are all about.

    re .81
    
    As I stated in .72 most of the figures I gave you were not...I
    repeat not actual eye witness accounts or wardens/officials or anyone.
    Most of the deer were found in the woods dead and assumed to be
    dog related but I think it would be hard to tell if no one sees
    it. But when I personally talk to the Fish and Game (as someone
    in this note suggested I do) and they give me these figures I have
    a tendency to believe them. Seeing that they are in the field and
    trained I feel they know a little bit more about the subject than
    the people in this conference. What are we supposed to base our
    opinions on if we can't use the figures of the Fish and Game Dept??
    Maybe we should believe the people in this note who say the figures
    are wrong.
    I grant you that the number of dead found is probably 1/2 or maybe
    1/3 the amount of the actual number killed but I still don't think
    they will destroy the deer heard in N.H. Maybe you have a worse
    problem in Mass. I don't know. You say you saw neighborhood dogs
    chasing deer every morning for three weeks while you were hunting.
    Gee that must accounted for the 26 deer that were killed! Or did
    you see any dead deer, or did you see the dogs catch them?
    
    I rest my case.
    
    FPT

     Jack I personally appoligize to you for calling you a jerk. I
    guess it was just the heat of the battle. Anything I say here to
    any response is not meant to be taken wrong.
    
    FPT

    Some random thoughts on the subject
              
    --Dogs should not be allowed to roam at will, they get into trouble
      ie: run deer, chase cars, get into garbage etc.
    
    --Not all dogs loose in the woods are running deer.  They could
      be hunting dogs, or just a dog out with there owner, running up
      ahead. I've known coon hounds that lost a trail and weren't picked
      up till the next morning, would you shoot them?
     
    --Whomever it was that "could set my watch by the dogs running the
      deer at 6:15."  Did you report this to a warden?  If this happened
      for 3 weeks straight, then it seems like it would be fairly easy
      to verify and prosecute the owners.
                                         
    --I'd be damned sure of the facts before I let lead fly at a dog
      I saw running in the woods. By doing so indescriminately, your
      supplying and unbelievable amount of fuel to the anti-hunting fires.
      
    --Lets cut the "jerk, etc." bs.  It doesn't serve any purpose except to
      piss people off.        
    
    --I do beleive that dogs running deer is a problem that should be
      adressed.  I also believe that the great majority of the damage
      is done in the winter, when the deer are yarded up and there is
      a crusty snow.  Also to a lessor degree during the fawning season.
      
    --I also believe that your "average" dog will run deer when in a
      pack enviroment. Granted that there are some that wont. Dogs can 
      be trained to avoid deer.
    
    --I believe that the solution is to keep dogs supervised at all
      possible times.  I don't think a vigilante attiude is going to help
      the problem or win us any points with the general public.  If you
      see dogs running deer, report it, and try to find out who owns the
      dog.          
    Jeff

    re:87
    I will accept the apology for "jerk" although it wasn't necessary
    since that is your opinion and you are intitled to it. I have since
    I read your reply and still am very "PISSED" that another hunter
    would "ONLY HOPE" that another hunter would get shot because he
    disagrees with a statement. (Maybe it's time to hang it up).
    We seem to have beat this one to death and heard all the possible
    opinions and variations on the subject, it is now up to each person
    to make a decision if ever faced with the situation.
    
    Jack

    
    
      Maybe we can close out this subject with this:
    
      I just called and talked to Scott Williamson at NH F&G. The figures
    for the last 5 years were as follows: 1986-24 killed, 1985-28 killed,
    1984-39 killed, 1983-13 killed, 1982-*229 killed*. Scott talked
    about the 1982 figures with me. He stated that the conditions were
    just right for the dogs to be able to run down the deer that year
    (crusting of the snow, etc).
    
      I told him that we had quite a debate going on here and that a
    contributor in this file was playing "number games" and saying
    that we didn't have a major problem at all. He agreed with my opinion
    that *one* deer kill is too many. 
    
      He also stated that "Dog owners have an obligation to keep their
    dogs restrained at all times so as not to cause undue suffering
    to the deer, especially in the winter months when the deer are yarding
    up and are weaker." And he also stated that "Those dog owners who
    allow their dogs to run free are irresponsible owners and shouldn't
    be dog owners."
                               
      Here's another little piece of info I uncovered:
    
    RSA 466:36
    
    ...The owner or owners of any dog or dogs caught in the act of maiming
    or in close pursuit of deer, moose, caribou, sheep, cattle, swine,
    poultry, or any domestic animal shall be guilty of a violation and
    notwithstanding the provisions of Title LXII may be fined up to
    $500.00. 1983, 68:1
                       
    
    
    joe

    re. 90
    
    Maybe we should just delay opening by one day. Shortening the season
    by one day would more than make up for the dog kill. Especially
    since the figures you gave were less than the ones quoted to me
    yesturday. One deer killed by a dog is too many but it's ok to kill
    all the dogs in the woods.
    
    FPT
    

    
    re .91                      
    
    I would suggest that if you have nothing constructive to add to
    this note other than "soapbox like" comments about "shortening the
    season by one day to make up for the dog kill" that you just refrain
    from responding. 
    
    Joe

    I was hoping I would'nt have to get involved with this note but
    I can see someone has to put an end to this, and seeing that I'm
    the moderator I guess I'm elected. I would just like to ask EVERYONE
    to drop this topic where it stands, and not put anymore more replys
    here. I would hate to lose this note do to name calling and such.
    I would also like to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving. Thank you
    for your cooperation.
    
    
                                                 The Moderator
                                                 Mike M.

    re:.88
    
    I did call the F&G dept, and the problem will hopefully be taken care
    of, they were quite interested, and said they would send a warden 
    up to investigate the situation... seems like a waste of time, but if
    they can at least catch the dogs running around in the area, they
    can probably contact the owners.  
    
    Fra
    

    ooooppps, replyed to .88 before i read .93... sorry
    
    fra
    

Anybody ever hunt doves in Miami?  Rediculous to such an extent that I stopped
hunting till I moved from the entire state.

There is very little area left to hunt, most is done south and west of Miami
proper.  The fields themselves are mostly posted and those that aren't have
hundreds of hunters .... literally!  An area 250' square would easily have
50 persons to a side with more in the field itself.

A dove comes sailing along and (I swear to God!) thirty shots are fired, most
missing the poor critter.  Even after hit, there are still shots fired at it,
sometimes the bird is hit 3 times or more before it hits the ground, the bird
being chopped upon hitting.  Then the fun starts ... "It's mine!", "No, mine!"
and on and on ... several people claiming the same bird.

There have been incidents of gun-play (pistol-packers) and death over a dove.

Incredible to say the least!

I've had people from as far away as 100 yds come running to claim a bird they
haven't even shot at.

As much as I love(d) the sport, I just couldn't stand it any longer.

Hunting to me is as much of an excuse to escape the fools and enjoy the out-
doors.  Actually putting game in the bag is certainly part of that enjoyment
but hardly worth the hassle in some aspects.

AA

    I have not had personal experience with this but know two other
    hunters who have had the problem.
    
    Ok, its opening morning Mass shotgun (for deer). A nice fat spikehorn
    comes sceaming by you at first legal shooting hour. You quickly
    determine it is a legal deer, bring your shotgun up to your sholder,
    and squeeze the trigger. Down he goes...but wait, he's back up and
    off to the races. You go over to where you hit him, and there is
    a good deal of bright red blood. Looks like a lethal hit. So off
    you go on the blood trail. 
    
    The deer is following a brook crossing back and forth and the tracking
    is slow (lots of leaves). You see a couple of places where he has
    stumbled. As you approach a ridge, you hear two shots. You cross
    over and there is another hunter putting his tag on the spikehorn.
    
    Two questions...Who's deer is it legally? Who's is it ethically?
    Let's say the elapsed time is 1 hour from 1st gunshot to second
    and third. Let's also guess the deer went 1/4 mile.
    
    I am sure these are even better questions if you are hunting with
    a bow.
    
    How do you feel about it?
    
    Guy

    Here is my OPINION.  I'm sure that there are plenty of folks out
    there that may disagree with it.  
    
    Legally it is whomever gets his tag on it, period.
    
    Ethically, I believe the deer belongs to whomever got in the first
    lethal shot.  If the first shot is lethal then I believe that hunter
    should get the deer.
    
    Jeff

    
    re:.98 thats exactly what I would have said...
    
    If you happened to be hunting with a few other guys, and the same
    thing occured, I would say, pick better guys to hunt with...  Up
    at our camp, we have an understanding that the first guy to lethally
    hit the deer gets the honors.
    
    Now I have a comment to make, what happens if say, the second guy
    to shoot it, doesn't realize it's been hit prior, and follows the
    rules and tags it immediatly, only to find out that it was hit before
    and the guy comes strolling up to confirm this???  now your tag
    is "used up" and you feel obligated to give the deer to the first
    hunter, what then???  Can you legally remove your tag???? should
    you???  
    
    Another thing I would like to ask is, do you consider a gut shot
    deer to be lethally wounded, be it by bow??? or by rifle???
    
    
    Fra

    My *opinion*, especially in Mass, whoever downs the deer should
    get the trophy. Now, in the same party, we also have an understanding,
    especially if we ar hunting fairly close together.
    
    Most places in MA are *very* heavily hunted. When I say most places,
    I mean in the Berkshires. Since your hunting soooo close to other
    hunters, you almost have to drop the deer in it's tracks to insure
    that you get the kill. If a deer is running, very fast, by you,
    and you drop it, I feel you should get the deer. It's certainly
    a consideration when hunting MA, which is one reason I haven't hunted
    deer in the Berksires, or the Cape, for many years. It's kinda like
    fishing from one of those 50 person party boats. You know someone's
    going to catch a fish, you just hope it's your hook that brings
    um in. 
    
    Smitty

    There was a story in one of the hunting mags a while back
    (Deer & Deer Hunting, maybe) that described such an incident.
    The court ruled that the deer belonged to the first person that
    shot it, citing a case to the effect that the first shooter
    had a vested  interest in the deer which could not be denied by 
    another person shooting the deer. This was dependent on the 
    inevitability of the deer eventually being brought down by the 
    initial shooter. (This was in another state, and the laws may
    vary. If the other guy had a gun, I'd think hard about pushing it
    too far.) (No :-) )

    I'll look it up tonite.
    
    Dana Charboneau

    In all the years I have hunted if the deer is moving and has no
    indication of a previous wound it would be yours no questions asked,
    period.
    
    Now if it was baddly wounded it is still yours but if those wounds
    were put there but your hunting partner or someone from your camp
    you might encourage him to take it because it was sort of a group
    effort and you don't like to see things run of and suffer. You are
    not bound to do so its good sportsmen ship.
    
    Say it was your son. There is probably no question what you would
    do even if the first wound was superficial ( sp ).
    
    I have seen deer that were down right imobilized shot again and
    the last hunter claiming it to be his...Not the type of deer I want
    to tag and I would purhaps shoot it to dispatch it but would the
    very first person who came after it tag it if he wanted to.
    
    Strangely enought in archery it is just the oposite. It is generally
    agreed that the first person who draws blood is entitled to
    the deer.
    
    A lot of these are unwritten rules and universal except for obviously
    people who don't give a hoot and think that aggression will get
    them some deer meat...They will come across a fresh kill and fire
    into the ground or air and claim the animal.
    
    I sometimes wonder why? They shure have missed the whole reason
    why we hunt.
    
    bear

    Good topic of discussion, something every deer hunter (at least
    those who hunt heavily hunted areas) should consider.
    
    The hunter I referred to in note .97 was my brother-in-law. The
    person who tagged the deer was a stranger (was not his party). Both
    hunters agreed as to whose shot went where. My bother in law hit
    the deer broadside behind the shoulder. The second hunter hit the
    deer in the brisket as it approached. 
    
    The warden who showed up says that in Mass., if the deer is standing
    up (not dead and leaning on something) it is still fair and legal
    game! Period, end of discussion. He also said that the same rule 
    applied to archery! So if you arrow a deer, until it lays down and
    dies, it may be taken legally by another hunter. How does that grab
    you???? They (wardens) don't care about lethally wounded. They want
    to know was it up or not, yes or no. The deer went home with the
    second hunter.
    
    That deer would have died as a result of the initial wound. I believe
    that no matter what the law says, that deer belonged (at least
    ethically) to my brother in law. I am sure there are other cases
    that are no so clear cut, paunch shots etc.
    
    So I guess you are half right Jeff (.98). As long as the deer is 
    standing, you can shoot it and tag it. However, if lets say that 
    deer never made the ridge, and the second hunter upon hearing the 
    first shot came over the ridge and saw the deer lying on the ground. 
    Legally, he could not have tagged it.
    
    If I came upon a deer on the ground or for that matter about to
    be on the ground, I'd finish it. I'd then wait to see if the guy/gal
    that shot it showed. If not, I'd tag it, if I had a legal tag. If
    I did not, I'd notify a warden.
    
    Fra, I don't know what I'd do if after tagging the deer, the rightful
    owner did show up. I guess I'd call a game warden and let them sort
    it out.
    
    Does anyone know the laws in their state and if they are different?
    How do you Mass bowhunters feel about this?  
    
    Guy

    re: -1
    
    <If I came upon a deer...>
    
    This whole paragraph should be preceeded with "If I had a legal tag
    and came up a deer ..."
    
    No I wouldn't finish a doe if I didn't have a doe tag. I would still
    wait though.
    
    Just didn't want to give you the wrong idea.
    
    Guy

    RE .101   This is from 'Deer & Deer Hunting', Oct. 1987, an article
    titled 'The trial for the King of Green Mountain'.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    "The law in the state of Wisconsin relating to vesting of title
    to a wild animal to it's pursuer is set forth in the case of
    Liesner vs. Wanie 156 Wis. 16, a 1914 case. In part it says, "When
    a wild animal is brought under control of a person so that actual
    posession is practically inevitable, a vested property interest
    accrues which cannot be divested by another intervening and killing
    it." When I talked to a warden from Wisconsin, he told me that a
    deer belongs to the hunter whose shot "makes death and posession
    inevitable." In other words, if you make a gut shot, surely the
    deer will die but will you recover it ? On the other hand, if a
    deer is shot through the heart and lung area, death and posession
    is inevitable."

    re:.-1
    
      I like the law in Wisconsin.  It makes sense.
    
    Jeff

    I also like the wisconsin law but it shouldn't have
    take a court of law to determine who should get the deer.
    
    unfortunately sometimes it does. I don't think I would want a deer
    bad enough to go to court. 
    
    It sorta ruins hunting for me...
    
    I once saw a guy shoot a deer that was down with in sight of the
    original hunter trying to get back up. It had been able to
    get half up on its front legs and was shot again buy another hunter
    who also knew who had shot it and could see the deer and the original
    shooter.
    
    He claimed the deer as his. He was the first one to it.
    
    There were 4 or 5 of us and it was obvious that there was going
    to be a confrontation.
    
    this is a potentially dangerous situation. Lots of swearing
    and tempers rising.
    
    short of elivating this and ruining the whole week there was
    no way you were going to take that deer from him.
    
    I beleived he beleived he was right.
    
    In the end we let him take it and continued hunting
    I really hate to get in these situations....
    
    If you let him take the deer you may be alowing this sorta 
    thing to happen again. If you seek leagle ( sp ) definition
    it is time consuming and could be expensive.
    
    Don't ever bother the land owner because this will ( in my
    opinion ) definately get the land posted real soon.
    
    bear                                      

    It's because of situations such as Bear described that I like to
    hunt away from the crowds.  Give me wilderness or private land (with
    permission).
    
    Jeff

    Re: .107
    
    Why not give the guy the deer and get his name and tag number and
    report the incedent to a warden?  The state might at least write
    the Bozo a letter letting him know the error of his ways.
    
    I had an uncle who was a game warden in Pennsylvania who told many
    stories of 'hunters' trying to shoot him.  I situation like the
    one Bear discribed can get crazy.
    
    larry

    	I hope I never get into a situation like this. I hunt with at
    least 3 others (sometimes more) and it has already been discussed
    that if the hit is in a vital area, that person gets the deer
    regardless of who finally takes it down.
    
    	I have heard of an instance where someone in the party I have
    hunted with for the past 5 years had someone else tag a deer he shot. 
    This sleezeball didn't even take a shot at it so it was real obvious.
    He came up on a fresh kill, tagged it, and was already gutting it
    when the owner showed up. The kid and his partner that did it were
    also pretty uppity until the rest of the party showed up (about 5 
    total) and then he was shaking in his boots. The end result was
    the owner was so disgusted that he let him have the deer, but not
    until the guy that did this was made to feel like the sleezeball he 
    truely was. As someone else said, these type of people do seem to 
    miss the true spirit and reasons behind hunting.
    
    	When someone in our party shoots a deer we have a certain series
    of shots to call in the rest of the party to help in tracking/dressing/
    dragging. This also tends to set limitations on how far a dispute
    will go (i.e. as in any others will think twice about doing something
    REALLY stupid like using their gun to settle a dispute).

    	RAYJ

      Read an article this past weekend in one of the hunting mags that
    got me to thinking about ethics.  This article was by Jim Bashline
    whom I considure to be a decent writer.  The subject was hearing
    protectors/amplifiers.  These are devices which look very much like
    earmuffs, but with an added advantage, they amplify the sounds around
    you.  You can hear normal conversation at quite a distance.  The
    idea is that it lets you hear game coming from a greater distance.
      After reading the article, I had mixed feelings.  I can understand
    where this type of device could be a great help to people with hearing
    disabilities.  On the other hand, I would hate to see hunting get
    to the point where you need a high-tech arsenal to get your deer.
    Why not set up remote listening posts?  Seems that we are getting
    away from what hunting is all about, getting out in the woods and
    trying to match wits with the game on its own terms.  Did anyone
    else read the article?  What do you think?  
    
    Jeff

    Why not just go to a game farm and pick out the biggest. I personaly
    could not enjoy hunting if thats what I needed to help me out. I
    would rather get skunked (which has happened more  often than not).
    In my opinion it is those types of gadgets that seperate hunters
    from those that think they are hunters.
    
    This might be a good time for me to mention my Hunting Partner.
    I read that note and thought "yea, my partner has those good
    qualifications" and this note confirms. 
    
    Two years ago he brought along one of those devices for bow season.
    After the first day and him knowing I didnt think to much of the
    idea I have never seen it since. To me thats one of many points
    in his favor.
    
    Jack

    I see nothing unethical about the electronic ears.  If you carry
    binoculars, then you should have no beef with the ears.  Remember,
    you still have to get within range of the animal without spooking
    it.  The ears won't help you sneak up on anything.  I sometimes
    use ears when I am on a stand, but I use a long bow without sights
    or release instead of a compound overdraw etc.  Which is more ethical?
    

    In my view the ears give you an unfair advantage.  When sitting
    on a stand you get a lot more warning that an animal is aproaching
    then if you you use just what God gave you.  I think the real question
    is where you draw the line. I would not like to see hunting get
    to the point that fishing has in some areas where some boats look
    like they are out of star wars.  The reason I go hunting is to try
    and match wits with the game.  Binoculars do allow you to cover
    more ground, but they don't tell you when an animal is aproaching.
    The ears remind me of an "early warning system" for hunters.  The
    difference, at least to me, between binoculars and ears is that
    with binoculars you still have to get to the game, but with ears
    the game is coming to you.  Just my opinion.
    
    Jeff

   > I would not like to see hunting get
   > to the point that fishing has in some areas where some boats look
   > like they are out of star wars.  The reason I go hunting is to try
   > and match wits with the game.
    
    Jeff- if you are talking about sport fishing, I have to disagree
    with you. All of the electronic devices in the world cannot make
    a fish bite. Having spent much of the summer weekends chasing giant
    tuna around the atlantic, I have to tell you that having reliable
    navigational abilities and sonar fish finders did not help us get
    a fish in the boat. Even when you know where the fish are you are
    not guaranteed getting them to bite. I'll admit that with some species 
    finding them is tantamount to catching them, but with many more
    you still need alot of skill and luck to catch them. Having a sonar
    is similar to seeing tracks and sign; it lets you know that your
    quarry is around. On the ocean, most of the time you can't see your
    quarry. Sonar is kind of like "underwater eyes." You wouldn't waste
    time hunting in a spot where no sign were present. Fishermen don't
    want to waste time fishing where there are no fish.
    
     As far as the electronic ears go, I personally would not be inclined
    to wear them as they are yet another piece of gear to carry and
    care for. They also, in my opinion, get in the way of my experience
    with nature. I prefer to travel light, taking the minimum necessary
    to do the job while also making the experience enjoyable. I don't
    hunt to become a slave to all the equipment that you can have.
    
    The Doctah

    Yea, I'll agree with you about the fishing.  I've spent alot of
    time both sport and comercial fishing.  While working on a swordfishing
    boat, we used all the electronics we could to mark fish.  Didn't
    always help us that much though.
      My point with hunting is that I couldn't imagine going afield
    loaded down with all this high-tech gear.  I think it takes away
    from the experience.  It seems to me that the ears give the hunter
    an unfair advantage in knowing far in advance that the animal is
    approaching.
    
    Jeff
    
    

    RE: last few
    
    The problem with the gadgetry is that there really are a lot of
    gray areas involved here.  I think that if you look at this question
    in a little more detail, you will see what I mean.
    
    Let's look at binoculars again.  Some people still-hunt for deer
    using binoculars.  They take a few steps, stop, and search the woods
    with the glasses - they kind of let you focus through the brush
    and pick up a deer that you might not otherwise see.  They can let
    you know that a deer is there, and that if you move again, the deer
    will spot you.  Is this really different from the ears?
    
    Now, let's think about scents for deer hunting - both cover ups and 
    attractors.  Sometimes I use them and sometimes I don't.  I personally
    would not use scents for fishing, but many do.  Are scents more
    or less ethical to use than electronic ears.
    
    Here is one for you Jeff.  What is really the difference between
    me using ears and someone using an electronic beeper on his pointing
    dog - you know, the kind that beeps when the dog is frozen on point
    deep in a cover who knows where?  Come to think of it, is it ethical
    to use the dog?
    
    Let's get even more basic.  I have lousy natural vision.  Should
    I remove my eyeglasses when I hunt - I could really be pretty
    dangerous.  I also have lousy hearing in my right ear - I have a
    tough time locating sounds that I hear in the woods.  The electronic
    ears help me there, but does that really make a difference in whether
    or not it is ethical to use them.
    
    The real point is that we already have a whole gamut of technical
    advantages.  How are we to decide whether the next one to appear
    on the market is ethical or not?  Actually, who are we to decide
    this question?
    
    Back to the question of the electronic ears.  They really do not
    give you as much advantage as you might think.  They amplify background
    noise (wind, squirrels, yourself) just as much as they would amplify
    deer walking.  They are kind of a pain in the butt to carry.  It
    probably would not be a good idea to use them in the rain.  I don't
    have enough experience with them yet to know whether it is worth the 
    effort for me (even with a bad ear) to carry them or not.
    
    - Dave

    Dave,
      I agree that this is a difficult question.  Probably one that
    can only be answered by the individual.  In regards to using a beeper
    on the dog, I think of that being more of a safety issue.  I use
    a bell on my Labs when  hunting upland game.  The reason being I
    want to know exactly where they are at all times.  I also want other
    hunters to know that there is a dog making all that racket, not
    a bird or a rabbit.
      I guess the question is where do you draw the line.  How about
    motion detectors?  Whats wrong with baiting?  How about night hunting?
    Starlight scopes?  
      Anyone else out there have any thoughts on the subject?
    
    Jeff

    	I think this is one of those unanswerable questions since it
    is really a judgement call, not a legal one. It is also a matter
    of reference. For example, there may be a person out there that
    only hunts with a bare long bow only. This person may feel that
    every other person that doesn't hunt this way and uses high powered
    rifles and scopes are unethical. If someone were to voice this to
    me I'd probably say, SO WHAT !!!! or To each their own.
    
    	The idea is to enjoy the outdoors and the sport. Trying to
    determine if electronic ears, binoculars, and other legal accessories
    are ethical or not tends to detract from rather than add to the spirit 
    of the sport and this conference.
    
    	RAYJ	

    I believe all these gadgets catch more sportsmen than game. Lets face
    the facts, if these gadgets where to give the individual an unfair
    advantage they would be outlawed because the harvest would be to great.
    Who knows maybe they will be outlawed. The way I look at if you want to
    put the money in someone's pocket then fine, it might just help an
    individual with a problem they have (sight,hearing etc.) As long as it
    is within the laws, then have a good time. You be the one who decides
    if is ethical.

    Just my opinion
    Rich

    Come on guys....what is a gun, its hi tech.  Your argueing degrees.
    
    
    
    /Bill
    

    	I agree that it is one of those things that each person has
    	to define for themselves.  To tell the truth, I don't feel
    	like going after stocked or planted birds is really hunting.
    	I do it because me and the dog need experience, but some day
    	I would like to go after wild birds only.  Many anti's feel
    	hunting is not sporting period, because animals can't pull
    	a trigger.
    		Linda

    	The "ears" are primarilly intended to be used as hearing protection
    on the range. They shut out high frequency noise (gunshots) but
    allow the shooter to clearly hear the range officer. In hunting,
    they do amplify everything, as previously stated, and therefore
    are a hindrance if you try to wear them while walking (CRUNCH!!
    CRUNCH!!).
    	Personally, the more hi tech the better. My ideal hunt goes
    like this....I'm sitting in my living room with a beer, and hear
    what sounds like a deer coming over the loudspeaker. I check
    the console and find that the sound originates at listening
    station 3,,the one by the river three miles away. I throw the
    switch that activates the TV camera at the listening station,
    and a clear color picture of the area comes onto the monitor.
    God, the colors are beautiful. I love the outdoors, especially
    color enhanced. I get the camera to scanning, and pick out a
    movement. Zooming in reveals a beautiful five point (Western count)
    Mulie buck. I activate the automatic scent dispensers at the site,
    and pipe out the love calls of a female Mulie. I watch the buck
    approach. After a couple of minutes, he's close enough to focus
    the electronic sights which line up the MAC-10 machine gun with
    the camera.   Just three more steps and he's mine,,,two,,,one.
    	He's there and I push the button which activates the gun.
    Eleven beautiful hits (an a few stray shots) and he's mine. I
    pick up the phone and call the butcher to go out and dreas out my
    hard won trophy, and go back across the room to finish watching
    Hee-Haw.   Ahh, the thrill of hte hunt.  :^)
    
    	George

    re:  < Note 24.123 by GENRAL::BOURBEAU >

    Gee George, nothing like pitting man against the elements is there? ;-)
    I'm with you, I hate it when I have to rough it.  By the way, did
    you're beer get warm while you were "hunting"? ;-)
    
    +- Mark (tongue-in-cheek)

    Reminds me of ice fishing in ME.  A friend of mine had a house over
    looking a lake.  We would set all of our tilts and retire to his
    living room to drink beer and watch football.  Periodically we would
    look out his picture window.  If we got a flag up, the designated
    flag-checker would get his coat on and jump on the snowmobile and
    go check the tilt.  God it was hard work.
    
    Jeff

    re:.123
    
    got a good laugh outa that....
    
    Fra
    

    
    
    	Any what do you guys think about this??  I was calling a turkey
    one morning quite early.  The bird was out about 100 yds on a flat
    above a steep bank and I was working it toward me.  I'd called perhaps
    15 to 20 minutes and the bird appeared to be hung up just out of
    sight, gobbling every now and then.  Suddenly KABANG! right from
    where the turkey was.  
    	I knew right then what happened because there weren't any other
    turkey sounds from that direction.  I went over and saw this guy
    standing over the flopping bird, made a few comments of which he
    got quite defensive and I left.   The guy sneaked up the steep bank,
    cut the bird off and blasted it right out in front of me.  I guess
    The bird was up and about so it was fair game, but I would never
    even consider cutting another caller off like that myself.  In fact,
    I will look for another bird if I hear a hunter working a bird.
    
    - Rob
    

    
    Is it possible that he didn't know you were a hunter?? If not then I
    agree, it is unethical. If he thought you were another bird, then 
    he maybe should apologize, but then again, give him alittle credit, he
    did stalk a turkey.

    	I don't feel good about it. If that hunter would stalk a
    turkey the he/she might stalk me!! I sound like a turkey when
    turkey calling!! If the other thought it was just two turkeys
    calling to each other then he/she would have set up and tried
    to call the tom in to their position. You don't stalk turkeys
    unless you can't call em or unless your trying to cut off
    another hunter!! I'll bet dollors to donuts it was the later in
    this case.
    
    	If you see another sneak in between you and a tom your calling
    give out the warning put to the tom. He'll turn and go the other
    way and give you a chance later that day or the next day. After
    you turn the bird tell the other hunter what you think of their
    hunting tactics. All this IF you see the other hunter sneak in.
    
    	Steve my_spine-shivers_at_the_thought_of_being_stalked

     Having never been turkey hunting, I have two reactions. The first,
    gut level reaction is that if you were doing your job properly,
    he would have had no way of knowing you weren't another bird so he could
    have shot justifiably at the turkey you were calling. He may have
    simply been ignorant of turkey hunting etiquette. (I am worried
    that I may have done something similar if I went turkey hunting
    because I didn't know better.) If you'd spent several weeks hunting
    turkey and you hadn't gotten close enough for a shot, and you saw
    a bird happen by that you thought another hunter _might_ be working,
    would you let the bird go by?
    
     My second reaction is that if turkey hunting _requires_ that you
    call in your bird (stalking is fruitless), then it appears that
    the hunter might have been engaging in less than admirable tactics.
    
    The Doctah
    

    I've got 2 episodes that relate to the topic. First, I hunted the
    Penn. season 2 years ago. My partner and myself being non-residents
    were there 2 days early to scout for sign. Well all we had read
    about the Penn. population lead us to believe that getting into
    a good area would be EASY.
    
    Well, we only found one area that had good sign, on a WMA. Sign
    elsewhere was spotty at best. We planned our strategy the night
    before and agreed on our calling locations. We would be on the same
    ridge, but about 4-600 yds apart. When we pulled in, there was 1
    car parked below the ridge, so we drove down the road to see whatelse
    we'd be infore as far as competition. It was the only other car
    in the WMA road, and this was several thousand acres big! So we
    felt assured that we'd never even see this other hunter.
    
    At first light I let go with a few yelps, and immediately got a
    response that didn't sound too far off. I continued to a point where
    i figured the bird to be almost within sight. Something seemed 
    a bit strange though, somtimes the bird would gobble back immediately
    to my call, and sometimes I'd just be ready to let go, and he'd
    double goble before I had a chance.
    
    Then all of a sudden...
    BLAM... I hear wings beating, then I see a figure in YELLOW run
    over and just barely see him retrieve a bird still flapping, about
    100 yds away! It was raining prior to first light and this guy had
    a yellow slicker on!

    So, initially I was pissed! I figured that this guy had done just
    what you described to me! Well after approaching him, he explained
    that he'd been there since before dark and was calling to the bird
    also. He said he'd never heard my calling, and surely I hadn't heard
    his! After talking with my partner later, the same group of birds
    had passed him barely within his sight on the way to this other
    guys call. He'd thought initially that they would come into his
    call also! He didn't hear the yelps, and figured they'd walked to
    me  and that I'd ended up in a position much closer to him than
    originally planned.... after he heard the close proximity of the shot.
    
    In the mean time, my buddy got to the other guy first, and the guy
    said there was another tom with this one that flew higher up the
    ridge, after he shot. Well, about an hour later, my partner came down the
    ridge carrying it!
    
    I guess the moral of the story is, that the call doesn't always
    carry as far as you might think in the field, under certain conditions!
    And the birds hear the calls at a greater distance than we do! This
    may or may not have happened to you, when you think you were cut
    off!
    
    The second situation happened to a guy I know, last year. He was
    calling, saw the bird coming, and saw the bird get shot! When the
    person who shot it went to retrieve it, my friend saw that he had
    been sitting about 70 yds from him in full camo. My friend never
    saw him til he stood after the shot. He then approached him, and
    asked why he didn't hear his call, when the hunter demonstrated
    his method of calling, my buddy said it was barely audible from
    a few feet away! This clown obviously had no idea what he was doing,
    yet there he stood with the nice Tom at his feet! My buddy also
    described this hunter as being real old, so he just let it go!
    
    I mean what can you do, in there own mind there are nimrods out
    there who just haven't got a clue, yet they sometimes luck out at
    the expense of others!

    Does anyone else get pi%% off at the hunting shows on TV?  I was
    watching a show called the Outdoor Trail yesterday.  They had this
    guy in a box blind hunting deer.  After awhile a buck comes out
    and the guy shoots at it, the deer runs off.  He gets out of the
    blind and goes to investigate.  Finds where his bullet hit a sapling.
    He also finds some hair, indicating the deer was hit.  Thats it.
    Made no effort to find the deer.  Do we really need this kind of
    free advertising?
    
    Jeff

    That is terrible. Its just like the guy on Rod and Reel, half the time
    he doesn't even know what the game laws are. These guys set a rotten
    example. I think the best thing would be to send them a letter
    informing them how we feel about their example of Hunting/Fishing.

    Rich

    
             
    
    In addition these shows are an excellent example of safety...
    
    /. Ian .\

    [I don't know the icon for a sarcastic face, so I'll add a :-)]

    I came across a tree stand this past fall and it had a little poem
    painted across one of the 2X4's:
    		You may use this tree stand
    		As long as we both agree
    		That when I show up
    		It belongs to me.
    And underneath it had the owners initials.
    							Bret

    
    "Trolling" is illegal, at least in MA. From memory it is illegal to use
    a power boat, under the influence of the motor while persuing game.
    
    --Bob
    

    RE: .136
    
    Like Bob in .137 says it is illegal....the next time you see this
    clown doing that, get his boat number and turn his butt in to the
    game cops.....and don't feel bad about doing it.
    
    In regards to canoes, I think those must be tied/anchored inorder
    to take a shot(?). The abstracts will tell you for sure.
    
    Tom,

RE .139

A boat powered by a motor (especially an electric trolling motor) is
not as likely to alarm the ducks as is a canoe being paddled or a boat
being rowed.  The reason is that with paddle or oars, something in/on the
boat will be visibly moving to catch the duck's attention.  

    I would imagine that it also has something to do with safety.  If
    there is a shooting accident in a canoe, the canoe will eventually
    come to a stop.  If one gets hurt while in a powered boat, the boat
    may continue in some direction, potentially causing further havoc.
    
    Mark.

    I checked out the abstracts pertaninning to this and it does state
    that you can not use a motor of any kind, it mentions nothing about
    jump shooting from a canoe.....so I would say go ahead and do it.
    The piece that caught my attention, was about sail boats. They said
    the sail had to be un-ferrled(sp) in order to shoot. Here is a chance
    for Gander Mountain to sell camo sails for Hobie Cats ;^} (sorry
    folks, I couldn't help it.) Maybe they could even make the sail
    so that it transforms into a blind.
    
    Seriously though, I would almost think that there is about as much
    effort involved in canoe jump shooting as there is in pass shooting.
    It seems a little risky to be shooting out of an un anchored canoe.
    All I can vision is doing an Eskimo roll with all of your gear in
    the canoe.
    
    Tom,

    I'm suprised by all of the comments about jump shooting from a canoe
    being as little effort as pass shooting, etc.  From that, I assume you
    haven't tried it.
    
    It is a lot of fun, but it is not easy being successful at it.  You
    need a good location, with lots of steep bends and someone that can
    control a canoe in current with no noise and little movement.  A bump
    on the canoe with the paddle or a slight splash as the paddle enters
    the water, and the ducks are gone.
    
    As far as safety goes, I guess it depends on the canoe.  My 17' Oldtown
    tripper is plenty stable; others aren't.  
    
    Mark,
    

    Jump shooting for ducks from a canoe involves the hunter paddleing
    up to the ducks as quiet as possible, spooking the duck into flight
    (hopefully in range), then shooting. The duck for all practicle
    purposess is a "sitting duck", that is to say, it is no where close
    to top speed and is trying to gain altitude.
    
    Pass shooting for ducks involves luring the ducks to you via decoys
    and/or calls. They usually are at a pretty good height and travelling
    at a pretty good speed (i.e. 40-60 mph).
    
    Jump shooting does sound like alot of fun. As for effort involved
    compared to pass shooting, you be the judge. I'll try jump shooting
    maybe I will improve my harvest.
    
    This reminds me of the time I had my decoys set out and along comes
    these two guys in a canoe, the guy in the front says...."Theres
    about a dozen right in front of us"...the guy paddleing in the back
    says...."Take them on the water".....I said...."They won't fly and
    they might taste a little rubbery".....then they saw the four of
    us glaring at them. 

    I read a recent note that sorta got me thinking again.
    
    I needed to revisit this note again I beleive that purhaps we should
    all reread this entire note before we go out again this year.
    
    We either stand for the Laws or we don't. It does not include bending
    the laws to suit us.
    
    One of the difficulties is just like automobile laws, most of them
    are self imposed because the Police or the Game officers just can't
    be everywhere and enforce all of the violations...
    
    Also there are some rules that are not laws but actually in the area
    of Fair play.
    
    Lets visit a few.
    
    What do you think of Ground blasting a partridge?
    Shooting sitting Ducks?  Blasting my decoys mistaken for sitting
    ducks?
    
    What do you think of filling another persons deer tag?
    
    What if the person is very old or very young?
    
    What do you think Of possesion limits? In your freezer?
    
    Can you think of any other commonly accepted practices that are
    considered my many sportsman as O'K but is actually against the Law.
    
    It is our responsibility to know the laws and our responsibility to
    obey the Laws...Some of the laws are nearly impossible to enforce.
    It is still our iobligation to live by them or to change them not
    to do as we see fit.
    
   Sincerely,
    Bear
    

      Can some one explain to me the logic of the possession laws?
    I like to hunt geese, alot.  I manage to shoot quite a few in that 
    during the season I'll hunt at least several times a week. If I manage
    to limit out at least once a week, I'm over my possession limit by the
    second week of the season, provided I don't give any birds away.  I
    don't shoot over my limit, and I don't drop birds for others, unless
    there obvious cripples (the bird, not the other hunters).  If I have
    more then 6 birds in my freezer do you considure me an outlaw?
    
    Jeff

    One law/rule that is frequenty not followed is drinking, before
    during or after hunting but still in the woods. 
    
    Twice while hunting my group has invited an individual and that
    person has drank.  At the time the three of us who always hunted
    together all agreed to never ask these individuals back.
    
    
    Tom
    
    Booze, there is no place for it during any part of a hunt. If you
    must drink wait until you get home.
    
    

>>    Booze, there is no place for it during any part of a hunt. If you
>>   must drink wait until you get home.

Tom,

What's so bad about having a cold one AFTER the end of a day's hunt?
While I certainly agree that no one should drink while they're hunting,
I can't really understand the logic of abstaining while relaxing
around a campfire after the end of the day.  You can't hunt anymore
that day, and you have the whole night to "sleep it off" for lack of
a better way to put it.  Mind you, I'm not advocating getting drunk,
but I can't see any objections to one or two beers after you're
done hunting.  Naturally, you must have your firearms, or archery
equipment, or whatever you use, put up.
    
I'll listen to any rational argument you have to prove me wrong.  All
I ask is that you extend me the same courtesy.

Jerry

    	Jerry, I personally see nothing wrong with having a beer in the
    evening after a hunt.  That's probably all you're going to have 
    anyway cause you won't want to get up the next morning if you
    overindulge.  Actually a beer in the evening after a hard hunt may 
    help you relax and get to sleep.  I believe some doctors even 
    recommend a person to have  A beer occasionally to help them relax
    and beat the stress.  Some people just don't believe in drinking 
    anything at all, whenever, (not saying is/is not -.2) and that's 
    their choice.
    
    - Rob

    Jerry
    	If in camp with the firearms or archery equipment put away then
    that what I mean by being "Home".   The guys I'm talking about would
    roll up, step out and down a few swallows. Then into the woods.
    At lunch it's "Miller" time and then back into the woods. At the
    end of the day it's a few more beers while talking about the day's
    hunt and packing the car.
    
    	There used to be a car load of guys that did exactly what I
    described above.  The three of us would have a section of the forest
    all to ourselves all bow season and then sure enough come 6:00 AM
    first day of gun season they'd tool up making all kinds of noise
    drinking and all that and then trudge off into the wood.  We eventually
    resorted to parking two trucks side by side at the beginning of
    the wood road. This forced the others to huff it in app. 1/2 miles
    before they would get to the normal parking spot.
    
    
    Tom

    Bear, thanks for the timely resurrection of this topic.
    
    >What do you think of Ground blasting a partridge?
    
    Although I doubt that it is illegal, I personally wouldn't shoot any
    bird that was on the ground.
    
    >Shooting sitting Ducks?  Blasting my decoys mistaken for sitting
    >ducks?
    
    Ditto for sitting ducks.  Regarding decoys, I've had someone shoot my
    decoys while my partner and I were hollering at the bozo that they were
    decoys.
    
>    What do you think of filling another persons deer tag?
    
    A sore spot with me.  This is an illegal act and as responsible hunters
    and sportsmen, we should ensure that hunters in our parties respect
    this law.
        
>    What if the person is very old or very young?
    
    This should not make any difference.  If the person is young, what type
    of example is being set when we fill someone's tag for them.
    
    Age doesn't make a difference.
    
>    What do you think Of possesion limits? In your freezer?
    
    I've never had a problem with limits.  The limits are there to protect
    the very sport we participate in.  This is another sore spot with me.
    People who claim, "well, I got skunked last year so I'm making up for
    it this year" ought to be turned in and fully prosecuted.
    
>    Can you think of any other commonly accepted practices that are
>    considered my many sportsman as O'K but is actually against the Law.
     
    Illegal deer drives, baiting, sharing doe tags, swapping ducks to
    preserve individual limits...
    
    
>    It is our responsibility to know the laws and our responsibility to
>    obey the Laws...Some of the laws are nearly impossible to enforce.
>    It is still our iobligation to live by them or to change them not
>    to do as we see fit.
    
    And it is our resposibility and in our own best interest to turn in
    those who violate these laws.
    

    Mark.
    

    I didn't hunt at all last year. Why ? Because of the slob's that are
    out there. I found a self centered mentality among sportsmen more often
    than not. I've seen hunters shoot at pheasant regardless of the hunters
    that were in jeopardy of being hit. Every game management area I've
    hunted, I would hear gun shots before sun up. Limits were always
    justified with the argument, "makes up for the times I got skunked."
    Signs, birdbox's and other property in management area's were more
    often than not, shot up.
    
    I'll tell you one thing though. The slob's are in equal numbers among
    animal rights activist. They disrupt nest, and bird box's in order to
    get brag pictures. They trespass, drive vehicles where they shouldn't
    and dam anyone if tell them about it. After all, only they know and
    love animals.

    I've returned to hunting this year because I missed it enough to want to 
    give it another shot (no pun intended). I hope I'll  see better behavior.

    Jim

    
    re .152,
    
    Mark, By possesion limit I think he meant the law that says you can 
    only have so many in your possession, including your freezer. The 
    possesion limit is lower than the season limit, if there is one, and us
    usually set to roughly 2 daily limits.
    
    I never understood the possesion limit. It basically means that to 
    fill you season limit you would have to dispose of (eat, give away etc)
    some amount of your game.
    
    I don't think anyone was trying to justify going over the season/daily
    limit by saying they didn't get any last time. Boy if that were the
    law, my hunting group is ready for about 100 deer this year :-)
    
    --Bob
    

    Unfortunately if we concentrate animal stocks in a small area
    we generallly see some despicable behavior.
    
    If we go to some really remote area of maine or N.H. or Vermont
    and hunt wild birds it usually is a different story.
    
    Another posibility is to hunt these areas at odd times. Durring
    the week in the afternoon is usually less people around.
    
    I beleive Greed is what makes many of act in a way that makes
    me sometimes ashamed of hunters.
    
    I am not asking anyone to live by my standards But I do wish I can 
    make some of you think just a little and maybe Raise your standards
    just a little this year...
    
    We all , myself included could raise our standards just a little
    we would all be a little better off.
    
    Bear

                   <<< Note 24.151 by SA1794::TENEROWICZT >>>

>>    Jerry
>>   	If in camp with the firearms or archery equipment put away then
>>    that what I mean by being "Home".   The guys I'm talking about would
>>    roll up, step out and down a few swallows. Then into the woods.
>>    At lunch it's "Miller" time and then back into the woods. At the
>>    end of the day it's a few more beers while talking about the day's
>>    hunt and packing the car.
>>    
>>    	There used to be a car load of guys that did exactly what I
>>    described above.  The three of us would have a section of the forest
>>    all to ourselves all bow season and then sure enough come 6:00 AM
>>    first day of gun season they'd tool up making all kinds of noise
>>    drinking and all that and then trudge off into the wood.  We eventually
>>    resorted to parking two trucks side by side at the beginning of
>>    the wood road. This forced the others to huff it in app. 1/2 miles
>>    before they would get to the normal parking spot.
    
    
    Tom,

    It appears to me that we are in perfect agreement on this one. I
    certainly don't have any desire to be around a bunch of drunks
    with loaded firearms.

    Jerry

    re .155
    
    Maybe you were just referring to bird hunting, but if not, there's no
    shortage of people trying to get around the rules even way up in
    northern Maine.  During my moose hunt we were camped beside another
    group of four hunters. Even though you can only have one subpermittee,
    these guys were ALL moose hunting - all 4 of them.  They were hunting
    from two separate trucks, not even together.  The guy breaking the
    rules was a potato farmer from Houlton.
    
    One night he came in and was griping about how the warden had hassled
    him because he had his rifle in the truck and no moose tag.  His
    rationale was that there were other species he could hunt.  (About the
    only big game he could have been after was coyote I guess.)  Apparently
    the warden tried several times to catch them in the act, but couldn't. 
    Too bad.  He did catch the other half of their crew with the clip
    inserted in the rifle while in the truck.  Cost him $100.

	> birds on the ground ...

	When using a shotgun I won't (except for the exceptions) 'cause
	that's the main reason I'm hunting the birds - to try my skill
	at hitting them in flight.  Shooting birds on the ground is
	not much better than having a deer tied up.  The exceptions is
	to put down a running pheasant (fer instance) that's already 
	been knocked down/crippled.  With no dog, it's probab a sure
	loss/dead bird that does no one any good.

	I do every once in a while hunt the dreaded spruce grouse with
	wadcutters in my Python (head shots), same as with ptarmigan.
	Neither of these birds flush and having your buddy throw them in 
	the air just ani't safe. ;-)

	> possession limits ...

	Never could really see the reasoning behind these (assuming
	daily/season limits aren't exceeded) unless the powers that
	be think that a lot of game would go to waste/freezer burn, etc.
	by having so much stashed away.  Most of us don't have that
	problem. ;-)

	AA

    re    "ground blasting" birds
    
    	Not very sportsman-like or satisfying but  definitely not illegal.
    
    re   "a cold one" after a hard day at the office
    
    	Nothing better.  If your profession was something like a logger
    or a sky-jack or a combat pilot or etc.  obviously you had better be
    sober or you might be dead.  But when the daily hunt is over, and
    the guns are stashed, it great to relax with a cold one to discuss
    the 'blunders' of the day with your friends.
    
    Andy
    

    Well, I'm not all that condemning on shooting birds on the ground. I
    won't allow people who hunt with me to do it, for the dog's safety,
    but I have shot birds on the ground. When I was hunting one year,
    the dog chased the pheasant through a swamp. The dog drove the bird from 
    the swamp and onto the dry ground  I was standing on. The dog was still 
    in the swamp so that the bird would've gotten  away had I not shot it. 
    The bird had not  been previously shot, but it's wing was broken so it 
    couldn't fly.

    People who hunt without dogs, don't really have a choice. Most of the
    time the bird won't go up unless a dog is on it's ass. And given the
    odds of getting birds without a dog are so slim, they got to take them
    when they see them.
    
    
    I general I shoot only birds on the fly but would rule out shooting on
    the ground if the situation warrant's it.

    Jim

    Jim, I understand what your saying, but respectfully disagree.
    
    One of the first things taught in hunter safety courses is always to
    keep the horizon below your line of fire.  The thinking behind this is
    that you'll never shoot another hunter (or dog) by mistake if your line
    of fire is above the horizon.
    
    I think it's called the "blue sky" rule of thumb.
    
    Now, if there's deer hunters sitting in tree stands...:^).
    
    Mark.

    Mark,

    
>    One of the first things taught in hunter safety courses is always to
>    keep the horizon below your line of fire.  The thinking behind this is
>    that you'll never shoot another hunter (or dog) by mistake if your line
>    of fire is above the horizon.

    
>    I think it's called the "blue sky" rule of thumb.

    Well, explain how you would shoot rabbits ?


>    Now, if there's deer hunters sitting in tree stands...:^).
    
Hunters that are in tree stands in a game management area during pheasant
    season would have the level of intelligence that would make anyone
    worried about them having a weapon in their hands.

    I agree that you should use the blue sky rule. The pheasant I shot was 
    only ten yards  from  me. BLOWED HIS HEAD OFFFFF. -:)

    Jim

    Rabbits don't fly?
    
    Mark.

    They don't?  I've been wooking fow dem in aw da wong pwaces den.
    
    Does dawn wascally wabbits
       

    
    	Gee Dave, I always thought you looked a little like ol' Elmer
    Fudd!!  :')
    

    RE:Mark

>    Rabbits don't fly?
    
    Thank's for that bit of wisdom.-:) Now how do you keep your line of
    sight above the horizon when you shoot rabbits ? 

    I know!
    

    Shoot up hill from a prone position. -:)

                                
    I saw a show last week called "Expose" that was going to do a story
    on illegal hunting. It showed a Doctor hunting A Bengal Tiger on a
    private ranch in Texas(?). The only problem is that the Bengal Tiger
    is on the endangered speices list and it is illegal to kill them no
    matter where it is. They showed another peice where the Dr shot an
    African lion on the same ranch. Both animals just stood there looking
    at him while he walked up and shot them.
    
    Another feature showed a black leopard (maybe panther) in a cage with
    6-7 guys standing around and a pack of dogs going crazy around the
    cage. They opened the door to the cage and the cat took off with the
    dogs in pursuit. Turns out the cat had been declawed and was from a
    zoo or some such place, he didn't run more than what seemed to be 50
    yards and there was just no place for him to go. Then someone walked up
    and shot him.
    
    I figured this show to be anti hunting but it wasn't. It showed what
    levels some (hopefully very few) people will do to get a so called
    trophy. The DR is being tried for shooting the tiger but not the lion.
    
    Nothing I saw on this show could or should be classified as hunting.
    The animals never had a chance and were sold to the ranches cause they
    were old and or sick. It really ticked me off to see this stuff.
    Hopefully they'll throw the book at those butt heads.
    
                            Walt

    
    
    some pretty sick sh*t that goes on out there, eh Walt? :(
    
    jim s.

 I saw that. I can't imagine what kind of person could take pleasure in
such an activity. How repulsive. Where's the challenge?

    
    	Did the reporter(narrator) refer to it as 'hunting'?  If so the
    harm has been done-whether we think of it as hunting or not. 
    	

    It was a pretty sick show, but it wasn't as 'anti' as I expected.
    They never referred to it as "hunting" and in fact they said that
    this behavior outraged most hunters.
    
    Mark,
    

    Unfortunately, this is exactly what the antis will point to as
    'typical' hunter behavior. 
    
    (climbing on soapbox)
    
    The sport of hunting has, unfortunately, some members who place 
    too high a priority on the kill, to the virtual exclusion of all
    the other factors involved. Anybody with the $$ can jump on a plane, 
    fly to some game-rich environment, and shoot an animal. It requires
    only modest marksmanship, no knowledge of the game, it's habits
    and habitat, no scouting, no work. Your guides have done all the
    _hunting_, you just shoot. In the extreme cases, such as this one,
    the animal is neither native to the area, nor wild. The person
    who employs such methosd has *no damn right* to call himself a
    'hunter.' That title is a badge of honor, to be earned.
    
    End of soapbox.
    
    Dana Charbonneau

              RE:171
    
             I agree 100% and have always had a problem with
    the type of 'hunting' you described.  But there are those
    who know of no other way to 'hunt' and that's the really
    sad part......
    
               Bob

    Bob,
    
    I just had a wicked case of deja vu after reading your last message,
    didn't we have this discussion before or am I dreaming...
    
    I think that kind of hunting is "out"...  This whole thing with game
    ranch's is getting outa hand, in my opinion... it's getting to the
    point where it will soon be only a rich mans sport.
    
    Fra

          re last:
             It wasn't a message, I was just agreeing with Dana.
    I won't get into debates anymore in this file.  I may have been
    out of line the last time, so I'm very careful of what I write
    in this file now.  However, I think as long as there is money
    to be made, that style of 'hunting' will continue.  
    
                Bob

    Bob,
    
    nothing vecisious (sp) meant by my reply, i'm agreeing 100%  
    
    FWIW, Fra
    

	Well, here's an ethics question.  I may not be able to participate
	much more than just sticking it in as I've been offered and
	accepted the package.  11/8 is my last day.  I've still got a terminal
	and it only depends on when they pull my account plug ....

	2nd combined season in CO.  We're hunting in an area far from any 
	paved roads.  There's a few 2-trackers we use to get from one part of
	the area to another.  The two of us are in my LC, driving to another
	section.  It's about 1PM.  There is enough room (and the terrain
	allows for it) to drive around the other vehicle.  Plenty of
	room for this other vehicle to have backed off the road.  I didn't
	want to drive around as it's bad for the land, etc.

	We come around a corner and find a Bronco/LA tags (I spent a few
	years in LA and really enjoyed that time - a super state!) parked in 
	the middle of the 2-tracker/nobody in sight.  We wait for a coupla 
	minutes not knowning whether the owner is up the hill on a stand, 
	attending to a call of nature or ?  

	After a brief wait, I beep the horn twice.  No sitting on it,
	just two quick beeps (and as soft as it would ;-).  Nothing.  A
	coupla minutes later, two more.  We in the LC are getting a bit
	miffed as we can't proceed as we would have liked to.  Talk of
	out-of-staters ensued (you can imagine ;-)

	I get out and walk up to the Bronco (nobody dead in the front seat)
	and on past.  This "lady" (we now have another name not quite so 
	polite but which avails itself more readily to the tongue) comes 
	walking from up the road gestulating wildly and I'm expecting her to 
	be falling all over herself appologizing.  No such luck.  She starts in
	on me about hunters' courtesy and how if I ever again come across a
	vehicle blocking the road, I should always wait 15 minutes to give
	her a chance to "get that elk she saw crossing the road and that
	we're nothing but a bunch of road hunters."

	I caught the drift right off and figured there's no way to break
	even with this "lady" and (even though I figure she's just plain
	nuts) appologize to her for interupting her hunt.  You had to
	be there, it was no win situation on our part no matter what we
	did from then on.  So, we're outa there but see her (every time!)
	just driving around in her Bronco.  (Of course to be fair, we
	wouldn't see her at all if she was out in the woods - just the Bronco
	parked somewhere.)

	Sorry for the length but wanted to get the story as straight as my
	bias would allow.

	Should we have just parked the LC and waited not knowing what 
	was going on? or ... ?  I really didn't want to just drive over the
	brush to get around the other vehicle.  And as an afterthought, if
	we would have driven through her "hunt" we would have caught hell
	anyway, I guess.

	And, to liven it up a bit more ....

	What would you consider road hunting?

	I know of a few "hunters" (used very broadly here) that just cruise
	the roads looking for an animal in the open.  If they see one,
	they'll roll down the window and blast the sucker.  "Hey, good
	one."  You know the type.  This to me is distasteful and not in
	the spirit of hunting.

	But, if you were driving (say on some 4WD road) and saw a legal animal
	crossing same would you get out (get your vehicle off the road!) and 
	pursue it?  If it didn't run, would you shoot it where it stood?

	Where would you draw the line as to what is and wasn't "road hunting?"
	What's the cut off?

	AA

	Thanks, guys & gals for your input to this file.  It's been one
	of my favorites.  You all take care, good luck at DEC and in the
	woods, and be safe & courteous.  Bye.

     Worst case of road hunters I ever saw was up at a camp in New
    Brunswick, where it's legal to fire from a vehicle. Seems these
    "hunters" from Massachusetts had built a rig on a pickup bed, where
    they rode above and to the rear of the cab. The rig was complete
    with bucket seats, seat belts, wind screen, and even a big red
    button on the console, between the two "hunters" that would signal the
    pickup truck driver with a light to stop when a "hunter" saw a deer.
    Three hunters spent their days riding around the back roads with their
    (required) guide, searching the choppings along the road for deer.
     After having the whole scenario explained to me by one of the proud
    inventors/users, I was asked my impressions. I think the impressions
    I gave were not quite what this person expected, especially when I
    asked if a hunting license came with their driver's education
    certificate.
     Oh well.
    
    Bob

This sort of hunting vehicle is fairly mundane stuff in much of the Arab
world - only they don't usually bother stopping the thing to shoot at the
fleeing gazelles... which is why a Lamborghini LM002 can do 140mph over
sand...

/. Ian .\

	Al, if the lady thought you were "road hunters" just for driving
	up there, I wonder what that leaves her as, after all her car
	was there as well! The least she could have done was show 
	enough courtesy to back her vehicle off the road, one should
	think ?? 

							- Mike

	Ian, (thanks for your words in FIRERMS - you too, wished we could've
	run into one another - face to face).

	Your last brings to mind the swamp buggies used in the Everglades
	for "hunting" deer, etc.

	Some of these contraptions rival stuff out of a Star Wars flic
	in design.  B52 tires chained up, push button opening for
	dog cages up front, elevated platforms for the "hunters,"
	you name it ....

	They ain't fast, tho'.

	AA

Yup. A poacher.  Just ask a warden that one.

(We even had guys admit to the warden who was teaching our bow hunting course
that they would do that if they wouldn't get caught.)

Dave

	Some states (Not Colorado) allow "Party Hunting" which means as 
long as all of the animals are tagged, there is not a problem.  No one
I hunt with would want their animal shot for them anyway.
	But, I guess it's like the different bear hunting laws, as
long as the law is not broken, I will not pass judgement.
	My 2 cents,
	Jim Pedersen

    Turn his ass in!  I shot my two buck limit, and was thinking about
    buying two more buck tags, however that is not ethical.  I am ethical.
    I have three doe tags, and will hunt for does.
    
    bob
    

I too, would condone whatever's LEGAL in a given state.
In NY, there used to be party permits for does. And in NH, 2 people can hunt 
for a moose on a single permit (but can only take 1).

Dave

    
    We (my party) has "broken" an Uncle of this practice (keep shooting
    deer until everyones tags are full). Seems that before the current
    crop of hunters went, the previous generation hunted this way, this
    is what he was taught (note I have no idea if this was legal when
    he was taught, it was 20+ years ago, in NH, I know now it is illegal
    to shoot others tags, or even help once your tag is full). The way
    we did it was simple. After a long dry spell (8+ years for anyone
    in the group, in which time, the group had a turnover, grandfather and
    his brothers stopped hunting, other uncles, myself and cousins came
    in), this Uncle got one on the first day. We congratulated him and told
    him he was gonna have a boring fall, he said "nope, we have x more tags
    to fill. to the person, we all told him that if he shoots another one,
    he is on his own and we weren't tagging it. He was shocked, didn't 
    even believe this was the law, he now does, and the 3 of us that got
    deer this year sat out the rest of the season (made me want a bow
    though so I could keep hunting -- come on Santa!).
    
    bob, in .184 you say you "thinking about buying two more buck tags"
    but it is not ethical.  Can you buy them in stores? If so, good 
    enough.
    
    If what they are doing is legal, then you have no right to complain,
    you can do/not do it if you want. Its your right to choose.
    
    --Bob
    

    
    What's the law in PA?
    
    Walt

    In Georgia, there is no control of logging of whom buys tags, and how 
    many.  When you buy tags in Georgia, you get two buck tags, and three
    antlerless tags.  Antlerless can mean buck with no horns, or doe.  You
    use these tags for gun/bow season.  total harvest is 5.  Of which only
    two can have horns.
    
    I have three antlerless tags left.  These will be for does.  Next week,
    doe season kicks in again on the 26th, and ends on January 9.  So, if I 
    am not hunting for a doe after christmas, I will be fishing in my boat
    for trophy brown trout on the Chattahoochee river.  
    
    Everyone enjoy your holiday, I will!
    
    Bob
    

    
    
      The law in Pa is one tag per person (buck) doe you can posess up to
    5 doe tags in some areas. there is no party hunting although it does 
    happen on occasion. 
     
        even though its illegal there are some people that make this a
    practice, I guess thats your choice but you should be prepared for
    the consequences when caught. I witnessed this the first day of buck
    season down in Pa(see unsucc. note).
    
       As someone else mentioned NY state has a party permit system, what
    you need to do is have the persons name on the party permit and the
    group leader has to have signed the permit, I have been a group leader
    the last 3 years on both permits, I carry one for myself and I give one
    permit to a needy family in the town that I live in since they are
    tight budgeted and cant afford to buy a sportsman license or spend the
    extra $10.00 for a doe permit.
    
      Also I dont understand the meaning of buying an extra buck tag being 
    unethical??? in NY if you tag a deer during the first bow season you
    can turn in your tag and pay 15.00 for a secon buck only tag. when I do
    this am I being unethical? not by my standards or upbringing, heck I
    wish we could buy a second buck tag after the first gun harvested buck.
    but the D.E.C. say's that to control the deer herd you need to harvest 
    more does than bucks, which is true, but in some areas the deer
    population isnt that big so the guys should be more selective in
    harvesting deer, ie possibly only harvest yearling does for a couple
    years so that the adult doe's that have been bred already can drop a
    possible set of twins the following year.
    
        with the right group of people and a properly controlled area of
    land you can greatly improve a deer herd and even the quality of the 
    deer in that particular area. which is what we are working on doing on 
    our farm in Pa. it wont happen overnight but we will continue till we
    gat the results we want to achieve.
    
                                              Lee
    

    Bob,
    
        Ga doesnt have a means of tracking who buys tags? and how many a
    person can buy? this doesnt sound right, well I can understand that you
    may get through the season without getting caught but I would think
    that once the conservation dept inputs the license info that is where
    they would catch the extra tag or extra license purchase, and if Ga
    doesnt input the info they are way behind the times.
    
      In Pa if you loose you license before/during the season you can go to 
    any of the normal issuing agents and purchase a replacement license
    when you do this the previous license is void and if you are caught
    with it in your posession you can be arrested, as far as the doe
    license goes if you loose them you have to go to the county treasurer
    office and sign an afidavid stateing that the license was lost and only
    then will they issue you a replacement license and again the lost
    license # (s) are void.
    
    alot of people doent realise that there are ways that the conservation 
    dept can catch people doing things illegally, granted sometimes people 
    will get away with something for a long time before they get caught,
    the big mistake alot of people make is by talking about it. when I was 
    working with the Pa game commission I cant even remember how many times
    we were called and tipped that some guys were talking about going out
    to shoot a deer., sometimes alcohol was a best tipster the guys are
    hanging out at the local bar start running their mouth and at times it
    worked out well for us because we knew the popular fields for deer and
    we would just go out and wait.
      
        Ya know as I was just typing the last paragraph I realised how much
    I miss doing that, the excitement the satisfaction but the thing I dont 
    miss is the fear of being shot, after all almost all the criminals we
    delt with were in posession of a firearm, and sometimes intoxicated, it
    sure gives your nerves a workout when you walk up to a car out in the
    middle of nowhere at 3 am when there were just shots fired, and your
    senses are keen and you can smell fresh powder. man it sends a chill up
    my spine just thinking about it.
    
       oh well enough about that, anyways Bob have you ever talked to the 
    conservation dept about tracking license's and or tag either by numbers
    or through data entry? maybe if that isnt done you could suggest it at
    a conservation meeting or the club you belong to could come up with a
    program to do so, and I am sure digital wouldnt mind if you pointed
    them towards us for a computer to maintain their files.
    
                                                 Lee
    
    P.S. everyone have a safe and happy holiday season 
    
    

    Lee,
    
    Georgia tracks the licenses.  They do not register the tags with the
    licenses though.  I can buy a license and tags at one store, and then 
    go buy additional tags at another store.
    
    Now, the only people that will see my tags are the processor, the
    taxidermist, and DNR.  DNR will only see my tags once the taxidermist
    has submitted them.  If I choose to process my own meat, the tag stays
    with the meat until processed for consumption.
    
    The DNR has no way of associating tags with licenses, so if one was to
    buy two sets of tags, they would be able to harvest a total of 4 bucks
    and 6 does.  But then, no one would hunt with them.
    
    I get my big ole non typical from the taxidermist in the morning.  It's
    going to be a beautiful Christmas.
    
    Bob
    

    
    
    
       Bob,
    
       Man it sounds like they need to make some changes down there, that
    type of process is just inviting trouble, see out tags up here have the
    actual license # imprinted on them and if those #'s dont match your
    bagged!
    
       I hear ya about the getting the deer head back, I just made the
    plack for my horns the other night and mounted them on it with a
    picture underneath, it was a b!tch to make, I used a rough cut board
    from the sawmill for wood, I thought about putting it on the other rack
    board I have but this rack kinda dwarfs the other average racks so it
    deserved its own board.
    
      well gotta fly its crazy here today for some reason.....
    
     happy holidays to ya Bob
    
    
    
                                                        Lee
    

    
    bob,
    
    Do you have to 'check in your deer'? Up here (in NH) you have to do
    the following:
    
    1) Immediately upon killing said deer, fill out and attach your tag
       As Lee said, number on tag better match number on license. (Sure
       was hard to write legibly after getting my deer, looked like my
       3 year old signed it :-)
    
    2) You now have 24 hours to get the deer to a check in station. Here
       they take the license number, tag number, date/time/place killed, 
       weapon used, buck/doe, points etc. They then put on a metal tag
       with a registered number. this metal tag has to stay with the deer
       until processed (mine was even attached to the box the meat was
       in when I picked it up from the butcher).
    
    This is how they track the kill in the state and area to area. Don't
    the do anything like this to keep track of the kill down there?
    
    I hunted in N. Carolina a few years back where you could take
    5 deer (2 buck, 2 doe, 1 either). The two I got had the tags put on
    when we dragged them out. I believe the tags were tossed once we got
    back to the lodge, not sure, there was no type of check in that I was
    aware of. Not sure if the lodge owner did anything with the tag 
    after that I was not aware of.
    
    Have a nice Christmas and a safe and happy new year.
    
    --Bob

    RE -1
    
    Bob, you are forgetting that the dnr requires mailing in any used tage
    within 5 days of the close of dear season. If the person buying two
    sets of tags is STUPID enough to send in filled tags from two sets, then 
    he will get most likely receive a visit from the DNR.
    
    Several years ago, I got two tags when i bought mine. They were stuck
    together, and were detected when I showed them to the warden at a WMA.
    He advised me that it is not illegal to possess more that one set of 
    big game tags, BUT, it is illegal to use tages from more than one set.
    
    
    regards,
    
    Carl
    
    
    regards,
    
    Carl
    

    My hunting license and tags are at the house.  I think it states that
    you mail in any unused tags in.  If a processor processes your meat,
    they mail in the tags.  I remembered that my taxidermist never saw my
    tag.  The tag stays with the meat until it is processed for human
    consumption.  
    
    TAgs are not identified with licenses.  There is no check in station. 
    Sometimes they have roadblocks, and if your deer is not properly
    tagged, you're going to the pokey.  If you quarter your own deer down
    at deer camp, and put it in the ice chest for transport, you have to 
    retain the head of the animal (for identifying sex) and have the tag
    with the MEAT.
    
    If you do use two sets of tags, and do mail in both remaining sets of
    tags back to DNR, you are stupid.
    
    I guess why regulation is "slack" down here vs. the north, we have a
    serious deer herd population explosion down here.  Our herd is over a
    million head per the state of Georgia.  With the increased "progress"
    by tearing down there habitat, and building houses, they have no where
    to go except as roadkill, or increased limits.
    
    Bob
    

    here in MN group hunting is permitted and even encouraged by the
    department of natural resources (DNR). the reason is simple. the DNR
    wants "x" number of deer harvested. frankly, i don't hunt in MN (to
    crowded and "tree stands" ain't my style). never have and never will.
    MT and the dakotas are more to my liking.

    	In New Hampshire you have twelve (12) hours to register your deer.
    If you are a bow hunter you also have to report it to a conservation
    officer within twenty-four (24) hours.  He may or may not request to
    see the intact field-dressed carcass.
    
                     Bob