Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

    I don't have an approach to tanning, but, justwanted to say thanks
    for taking the time to put yours in notes. If on my last two days
    of the mass season I get one of the elusive little devils (no smart
    alec comments JEFF!!) I will try out your approach.
    
    Jack

    re .0
    
      I wanted to say thanks also... I've never seen or heard how it's
    done, and now I know... There's nothing that can beat deer hide
    leather...
    
    
    Joe

    .0 - Thanks a lot for the information... I didn't have any idea
    how to go about it. Now, if I ever get a deer......:*)
    
      Smitty

    The hardest thing to find is the Alum. I've found it at Safeway stores
    over by the prescription counter. But, it is about $1.75 a bottle
    and it take between 6-15 of those depending on what your doing,
    they are about the size of a asprin bottle.
    
    You use 1/4 pound of alum per gallon of water and a pound of salt.
    If your really into it the Ph level 3.9, salt reading should be
    40-50 %.
    
    Here is a place where you can get it in the Mail - cheaper 
    
    M&M FUR CO.
    P.O. BOX 15
    BRIDGEWATER, SD  57319-0015
    1-(800)-826-8596
    
         alum
     1 lbs  $1.75
     5 lbs  $6.00
    10 lbs $12.00

    (Walgreens has the Neats Foot Oil for $2.29)

    	I remember seeing a tanning kit in either the Gander Mountain
    or the Cabella's catalog. I will try to remember to bring in the
    current catalogs and look up the prices. It supposedly had everything
    you need to tan two average sized deer hides. It may be nothing more
    than the alum and salt but if the price is right it may be worth
    while.
    
    	RAYJ

    	Gander Mountain's latest sale catalog on the 3rd page (counting 
    the cover page) had the tanning supplies. It was $9.99 for the kit and 
    it claimed this was enough for 20 lbs. (2 average deer) of hide. It
    also said you could tan with hair on or off. Add $2.95 for shipping
    and handling and your up to about $13. Never tried it so I can't
    comment on how good it works.

    RAYJ

    Since I'm new to this file, and I think it's great! Here's my untimely
    reply to this note
    
    I have been tanning deer hides with the hair removed in the traditional
    Lakota (Sioux) way by brain tanning.  I flesh out the hide as soon
    as I get it and then salt it for storage.  Since the weather tends
    to freeze any de-hairing mixture, I wait until the warm weather
    to begin the tanning process.
    
    First step: Completely soak the hide in a mixture of wood ashes
                and water for three to five days.  This will loosen
                the hair enough to easily remove.  You can also use
                lime and water but that is more caustic to your hands.

    Second step: After all of the hair has been removed, use your fleshing
                 tool (a metal scraper or a sharpen wooden paint stirrer)
                 to remove any other traces of hair or membrane. Rinse
                 with water.

    Now the fun stuff...
    
    Go to the butchers and pick up some fresh cow's brains (the unfresh
    ones smell!) Three or four will do.  Place the brains in a large
    pot with enough water to cover and bring to a boil.  This is another
    reason why I wait till the weather gets warm.  My wife doesn't get
    too excited about the smell of boiling brains in the kitchen.  So
    I do the "cooking" outside.  The goal of this step is to make a
    paste that will be applied to the hide.  Once the water has boiled
    down and a paste like substance has been created by stirring and
    mashing (sounds exciting!)  Let the contents cool and apply to the
    hide by rubbing both sides of the hide and working the paste in.
    
    Rinse the hide (Finally)
    
    The hide should be very supple, take a rope and tie it to a tree
    on the other end, tie a loop.  Pull the hide through the loop several
    times to break down the fibers of the hide.  The hide should now
    be plyable.
    
    The final step involves building a small fire of cedar or hardwoods
    to smoke the hide. (to preserve)
    
    Build a small tipi structure over the fire and place the hide over
    the tipi, you need to be careful here to not burn the hide.  Continue
    to smoke the hide until it reaches the desired color (a golden tone)
    
    
    
    

	I once tried that method, It says in the book that I have That 
there is enough brain for what ever animal you use..Like a deers brain
in enough for a deer hide! Well I wanted to try on smaller things like
tree rats for example...So here I am skinning the little tree rat..
no problem but now I need the BRAIN! I really tried hard to cut that
sucker up so I could get the brain but after about 5 minutes of hacking
that tree rat up I just said forget it! I'll use the other stuff I bought.
( I bought a tanning kit and it came with some tanning stuff ) well by the
time I was finished with the tree rat the skin was so hard it looked
like cardboard.....so I figured the skin was to small so I did up a raccoon
hide and the same thing happened...cardboard, So i threw them both away
and I just gave up on the art of tanning!


Mike_who_wont_tan_with_brains (yuch!)

    I can see it now.   "Hey Joann, can you pick up a couple
    of pounds of brains while your out?"
    Don't imagine it would go over to well.     
      Jeff

    Sam Fadala detaled a traditional Indian method of tanning in one
    of his books on black powder shooting. DBI Books maybe. Gave it
    away, not certain of title.

    When tanning by the alum/salt method, how supple is the end result
    in the case of a deer hide w/ hair on, any experience? Also any
    idea on how many gallons of solution per hide is needed? This will
    tell me how much alum I should buy. Thanks. I have 2 hides, a buck
    and a doe, both large animals, and I have salted them down. They
    await their bath. I will use the face masks for tying little black
    caddis flys for fly fishing and hope to use the hides as "throw
    rugs".

    how supple is the end result - depends on how much you work the
    hide when finished. You can get it pretty workable, just keep
    pulling. I wrap mine around a 4x4 post with rounded corners and
    you can even take the sander to it.
    
    How many gallons - I use a wash tub about half full per hide.
    You have to have just enough to get the hide completely submerged.
    I use 2to3 pounds of alum and 1 1/2 container of salt.
    
    You can mail order alum for about $.85 a pound. (10 pounds $12.)
    M&M Fur Co. Bridgewater, SD. (800) 826-8596
    
    For best results only do one hide at a time, and start a fresh
    bath for each hide. If the hide side is not WHITE when dry, you
    did not use enough alum/salt.
    If the hair turns white/yellow you used the wrong kind of salt.

    I've got 8 deer hides, 1 racoon, and 1 coyote to do. You know what
    I'll be up to all winter, when I'm not out hunting of course.

    does this help ?
    
    mark
    

>        For best results only do one hide at a time, and start a fresh
>   bath for each hide. If the hide side is not WHITE when dry, you
>   did not use enough alum/salt.
>    If the hair turns white/yellow you used the wrong kind of salt.            
 
    What is the right kind of salt ???
    
    Ellis	(The Rim Man)
    

    nonIodized salt

    re .12 Yes, that's what I needed! Thanks!! Good luck on the 8!

    I understand that I am supposed to roll the hide, salted side in,
    rather than fold while it is waiting to be "cured" to avoid fold
    lines. Is this also true when hair is to be left on? If so, won't
    the salt on the hair cause it to fall out? I have enough trouble
    with my OWN hair falling out! Also I would think that the salted
    hide on top of hair (as it would be when rolled) would be less
    effective at preserving the hide side than the skin-to-skin method.
    Eh?

    Salt on the hair side has not caused any problems for me, but I
    try not to salt the hair directly and don't worry about too much
    either.You should not have to worry about fold lines either. All 
    lines will/should work out when soaking in the bath.

    If you miss places in salting, such as in tails and on edges, that
    hair will sometimes pull (slip) right out when your done. Make sure to
    salt everything.
    
    After I salt flat skins I fold the sides to the center and then 
    roll it up. 
    
    If it's a full skin, meaning not cut down the center, like
    you can do on coyotes and racooons. (which is how you should skin
    them when you plan on selling them to a furrier) I turn it inside out
    scrape and salt, then fold the hair side up over the hide side. Kind of
    makes a little pocket, hide side in. (hard to explain in writing, 
    make sense to you?)

    mark

    I think I missed the pocket trick, but that's ok since I'm not yet
    working the mid size mammals. BTW, what kind of money do you get
    for various hides?  It is now clear what you do with 8 deer hides
    in a season. 

    What kind of money ? That's what my wife wants to know. I keep most
    of them I get. The 8 hides I'm working on now are going to be used
    for Mountain Man apparel and other types of things.
    
    I got them from a friend and my brothers. All of them are white tails.
    The first mulie I got I tanned and sold, got $40 from a guy.
    
    prices last year for hide where: (these are not tanned only scraped
    and sold to furrier's and going by old memory chips here)
    
    $20-30 for a racoon depends on size.
    $20-40 for coyotes depends on type and quality.
        (in Colorado there is a plains and mountain coyote, mountain
         are bigger and darker and bring more $$$$)
    badger is about the same $20-30
    bob cat $60-100
    Lynx is what you want for the big bucks, if I remember right they
    bring about $200 to $600 (haven't got any of these not real sure)
    
    Muskrat, beaver, skunks also bring money but don't know the amount,
    I'll check.

    The pocket trick-
    
    when you want to sell hides, you skin the animal by just cutting inside
    the hind legs then pull the rest down over the head. There is only
    this one cut.(unless you want to remove the feet). I alway call
    this taking off the pajamas.
    After you pull the hide over the head it should be inside out. Scrape
    and salt them pull this cut area (hind legs) back up to where the head
    is. With out completly turning the hide right out again.
    
          head (inside out)    
        |  this is the hide side
        |  |
        v  v
    \  /\  /
     \/  \/  <-- this is the fur side

    
    Mark, I guess you can tell I trap too

    Mark, do you sell any of your furs still on the carcass?  When I
    use to trap, you could get just as much money, and sometimes more,
    if you let the fur house do the skinning.  We use to freeze the
    'rats whole.
    
    Jeff

    Never have sold one whole, always skin them out. I would think you
    would get just as much if you don't make any holes in them. (???)
    
    
    There is a trick you can use in skining to get more from a hide.
    That is to make the cut go about an inch futher up from the anus, 
    towards the belly side. That gives you and extra inch in length 
    when they measure them out for size. Every inch counts, right ?:-)

    I have to go home tonight and mix up a bath solution. I have one
    deer hide the coyote and the racoon that are ready to go.

    Another, thing that might help your skins come out better is to wash
    the hair side before placing in the bath, to remove dirt and blood.
    If you don't the water will turn dark brown.

    Going out this weekend to see if I can call in another Coyote, too.
    Loaded up some 30.06 110 grain full metal jackets, 52 grains of
    4064. First time I've tried them, up they don't do to much damage.

    Have fun and happy hunting
    mark

    Where do you hunt - where do you live? I am thinking of going out
    this winter to do some fox, bobcat, etc. hunting but have never
    done any before. Do you have to sit motionless for hours to do varmit
    hunting or just how is it approached? Is my 30-06 really not overkill
    in 110 grain? That would be great! - Back to tanning, I received
    the M&M catalog today and it looks like Krome is much better than
    Alum in terms of work and seems very cheap too. They also mention
    pickling before tanning, do you know what this is about? Thanks
    for all your input. I am ready to tan but am hesitating on the Krome
    question. Will appreciate any comments.

    I live in Colorado Springs, I hunt anywhere I can. Mostly I have
    been going out to a farm that has a large population of Parrie
    Dogs. If no coyotes come in, we shoot little brown dogs :-).
    
    After what happen to those little brown dogs using the 110's 
    I made up, I know it's overkill. Need to work up a lighter load.
    
    There's another note in this file, somewhere, on the how too's
    of coyote/fox... hunting. Anyone know which one that was ? Don't
    sit for hours though, wasting your time. If you are using a call,
    give it 30 minutes or so and move to another spot. If they aren't
    there is 30 minutes, either they are not in the area or the smell
    you.
    
    I heard of Krome tanning, but have never tried it. The hide
    supossedly comes out softer. If I remember right, the hide
    comes out a blue color too.
    
    Alum/salt tanning is consider pickeling.

    There has not been much activity on this note in a while, but I
    am woundering if there are any other comments on this procedure
    (pro or con), from those who might have tried it.
    
    I have a small dear hide which I would like to try tanning myself
    with the hair on, to use as a throw rug. Some one else mentioned
    doing this in an earlier note, and I would appreciate knowing how
    it turned out. Does it come out soft and supple, or is the skin
    stiff, or will it go eather way ? And, how about the color of the
    fur, does that change at all ?
    
    Although the 'brain' method in note .7 sounds interesting, I don't
    feel I need to be that "traditional" (yuck).
    
    Therefore, I called Gander Mountain to check on there Tanning Kit. 
    They still carry it, but it will be out of stock until January of 91. Thats
    a bit to long to wait, so I am going to try to assemble the ingrediants
    from note .0 (Bye-the bye   The kit from Gander Mountain is the
    same stuff, Alum and salt, although the product information folks
    were not sure of the type of oil or shampoo, the bath is the same.)
    
    Any help would be greatly appreciated !

    In the hides I've tanned the color of the fur does not change color.
    The hide side on the skin should be white if the right mix of salt/alum
    is made up. If your not sure always use *more*. I used a piece of
    cheap pine once to hold the it under the water and the hide turned
    yellow. I have since gone to bricks.
    
    How soft the hide comes out depends on how much stretching you do. Start
    before the hide is dry and continue until it's completely dry. Add
    Neatsfoot oil to the hide as it is drying. You have to do a whole lot
    of stretching to get is real soft, or a good woman to chew on it :-).
    
    Shampoo - After taking it out of the salt/alum bath wash it once in
    20 mule team borax. That stops the alum. If you don't it will shrink
    more than you can stretch it. I also use normal hair shampoo to wash
    the fur. Once I used head and shoulders and the other times a Breck
    shampoo, both work the same and make it smell better.
    
    One thing I've never done, but I should, is to wash the hair before the
    alum/salt bath. If you don't the water will get dirty and the hide side
    will get dirty. (deer don't take baths in the woods.) I have been
    scraping the hide after all the shampooing is complete to get all the
    dirt off and to get down to good leather.
    
    Has anyone else tried this yet ? How'd it work for you ?
    
    Mark
    
    ps. I still have 8 deer hides and 1 fox to tan. Maybe this winter.

    hanks for the come back, Mark. I was hoping that you were still
    out there.
    
    Speeking of Stretching.....how ?
    I have a couple of ideas, but I'm not sure how to build a frame
    that will stand up.
    
    One other thing....Is the temperature of the area that this is done
    in a factor ? I plan to do this in the cellar, which durring the
    winter seldom get much above 60, mostly it is in the high fifties.
    Would this cauce any problems that I should be aware of, if it can
    be done at all ?
    
    Rick

	Although I've never done it myself, I read of a coupla ways to
	strech a hide.  Keep in mind that these are pretty primitive
	methods and there's probably some kind of commercial stretchers
	available.

	One is to tie a stout rope to a strudy anchor, make a non-slip loop
	in the rope and keep running the hide through the loop back and
	forth with much vigor and tension.  Seems to me that this would
	abrade the hair right off.

	Another was to bury a baseball bat in the ground so it's rigid
	and you still have the end opposite the grip sticking out off the
	ground enough to strech the hide over this.  Kinda like with the
	rope - grab a handful on either end and drag it back and forth
	while stretching the hide.  A standing fence post or anything 
	similar to a bat in the ground would work but you want the
	"mandrel" to be smooth so the hide doesn't get torn, etc.

	Chewing sounds like a hard way to go (if you have to do it yourself ;-)

	AA

    
        I wanted to try that solution also but ended up buying some tanning
    solution from bass pro shop. I'm still working on trying to soften it
    up, I havent bought the neats oil yet.  As far as it drying in the cellar,
    the directions said that it would be dry in twelve hours but in fact ,
    because of the cooler temperture 60 degree's or so, it took about a week.
    
    Never having done this before I was'nt sure what it would dry like and 
    finally put it by the hot air furnace with the open duct blowing on it.
    It dries white and feels like card board. I put a 6' 2 by 4 clamped to
    one of my support post and have been working the hide on that. The
    directions said to use a formica edge or a dull axe blade. I didnt have
    either so went with this. It's gotten softer but I think the oil should
    do the trick.
    
                                                             ,gus
 

    When stretching mine I used the pole in the garage. The one that
    holds the beam up. It was a round steel pipe. When the hide is
    still somewhat wet you can fell it stretch when you pull. You keep
    do this until dry.
    
    Another way to do it is to build a frame, maybe out of 2x4's, with
    hooks all around the edge. Then put holes in the hide and tide it.
    I think that would stretch it better. If left alone it will be hard
    when dry. It should be scraped, with ya a dull ax or such to help
    break up the hide fibers(?), as it's drying.
    
    I've stretched for hours on the damn pole in the garage. The closure to
    dry the hide get the more it needs.
    
    If the hide stays wet too long it could rot or mildew. I've stretched
    some hides, coon and coyot, in front of the fire place. Doesn't take
    as long to dry.
    
     Mark
    
    ps. I'll be in this notes file until the fire me. I'm working on
        getting my guide/outfitters license here in Colorado.

    	I'm going to attempt to tan a deer hide this year, mater of fact
    	I should getting it back Thursday along with the meat.
    
    	So my question is how do I remove the hair? I want to make a
        buckskin case for my BP rifle...
    
        Any help would be appreciated.
    
    	Frank Fontaine
    	

    	I was told that if you rub ashes into the hide the hair will fall
    out. I don't know if this works for sure. Just my $.02.
    							Bret

    Frank,
    
    Are you the guy in charge of Honeywell?  If so, send me the new
    master agreement and forget about Hunting notes!
    
    Just kidding,
    
    Bob Harris
    Services sales rep
    Atlanta
    
    keep hunting
    

    .32
    
    No. Wrong Frank, I work in disk engineering.

          <  So my question is how do I remove the hair? I want to make a
          <  buckskin case for my BP rifle...
    
          I watched a special on brain tanning a while back and the guy had
    the hide stretched out in a frame.  After removing the epidermis from
    the inside he turned the frame and started scraping the hide with a
    special tool he had that looked like a small, hand held hoe.  This
    thing was real sharp and took the hair off very fast.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    EARL

I once removed the hair from a roebuck(capreolus capreolus) hide. I just placed 
the hide in a small streem for 14 days or so, can't remember exactly. Note that it
was winter and the water was cold. When i took the hide from the water i could remove
the hair whith just my hands.

good luck

TJ

I had a couple questions about the tanning process (from 92.0).  Per the steps
below, should you attempt to salt *both* sides of the hide?  I heavily salted
the hide (skinned) side, after rinsing off all the blood, etc.   I didn't see 
where the salt could do much good on the hair side, as it wouldn't get to the
skin.

Also, the hide I got from the butcher was a bit on the ripe side. It doesn't
really smell or look rotten, but it it very gamey, and my garage (even at 30
degrees F) is getting a bit nasty.  With heavy salting and then 5 days in
the Alum solution, could I expect this smell to go away?  If this tanning
effort is doomed and the hide will be forever ripe, I'd like to know up front!  

Thanks for your help,


Steve

************************************************************
> 1     Flesh ( Fat, Loose Skin) Pull Cuckle Burrs off
>>> 1     Salt - coat hide and rub into flesh side (Non-Iodized)
                 ^^^^^^^^^^
> 1     Roll hide up and set aside for 2 days

	

> I had a couple questions about the tanning process (from 92.0).  Per the steps
> below, should you attempt to salt *both* sides of the hide?  I heavily salted
> the hide (skinned) side, after rinsing off all the blood, etc.   I didn't see 
> where the salt could do much good on the hair side, as it wouldn't get to the
> skin.


From what I've been told wetting/rinsing the hide before tanning is the worst
thing you can do.

The reason you salt the hide is to "stabilise" the amount of moisture in the
skin.  There is a bacteria which lives in the hair folicals of the skin and the
salt starves the bacteria of moisture and kills it before it does damage to the
hide.  If the hide has blood, meat or fat on it scrap it off with the edge of
your knife NEVER rinse the blood off.

I've been told that if the hide is wet you get a lot of hair slip (techo talk
for hair loss), the thing that really puzzles me is that they tell me you still
have to do this even though you want the hide for leather with the hair off. Go
figure.


Another thing which I've been told is that you should salt the hide the moment
it returns to room temperature (of course room temperature in a New England
winter is a lot different to room temperatue in an Australian summer) within
about 4 hours of the kill. I usually skin the hide within about 2 hours after
the kill and hang it on the fence for a couple of hours and let any juice run
off.


So from what I've been taught you've done everything wrong.  Don't give up
though because if the hide turns out you'll have a beautiful rug for the living
room.  I've never wet a hide before salting and I've always salted it within
four hours.  I do it this way because of habit and training and I've never had
reason to do it otherwise.  So the way you do it may not be wrong just
different, let me know how you get on.

The one thing that I really don't like is the fact that the hide smells, I've
never had any of my hides smell and I think it's a sign that something is not
right.



Good luck
Glenn



P.S. Salting both sides of the hide is not required, the salt and tanning
solution will only enter from the skin side.  I salt the skin side only and fold
the hide up into a parcel so I guess a far bit of salt comes into contact with
the hair.

>         <<< Note 92.37 by 60600::CASEY "I'd rather be ... anything" >>>
>                       -< Something doesn't smell right >-


>The reason you salt the hide is to "stabilise" the amount of moisture in the
>skin.  There is a bacteria which lives in the hair folicals of the skin and the
>salt starves the bacteria of moisture and kills it before it does damage to the
>hide.  If the hide has blood, meat or fat on it scrap it off with the edge of
>your knife NEVER rinse the blood off.

	Luckily, it's dry out in Colorado, and the hide quickly dried, esp. with
the help of 6lb. of salt on it.  


>I've been told that if the hide is wet you get a lot of hair slip (techo talk
>for hair loss), the thing that really puzzles me is that they tell me you still
>have to do this even though you want the hide for leather with the hair off. Go
>figure.
	
	I (arrgh!) rinsed it off last night, shampooed it (as best I could) and
the hair seems very firmly attached.  The hair loss has only been at the cut 
edges, and I had to horse on it pretty hard (a dripping wet hide weighs 50lbs
or so).  


>Another thing which I've been told is that you should salt the hide the moment
>it returns to room temperature (of course room temperature in a New England
>winter is a lot different to room temperatue in an Australian summer) within
>about 4 hours of the kill. I usually skin the hide within about 2 hours after
>the kill and hang it on the fence for a couple of hours and let any juice run
>off.

	Ideally, I would have done this, too.  I realize my techniques haven't
been the purest.


>So from what I've been taught you've done everything wrong.  Don't give up
>though because if the hide turns out you'll have a beautiful rug for the living
>room.  I've never wet a hide before salting and I've always salted it within
>four hours.  I do it this way because of habit and training and I've never had
>reason to do it otherwise.  So the way you do it may not be wrong just
>different, let me know how you get on.

	I'll post my results here in the file - if this hide works out, then
clearly there is some latitude in the directions ;-).


>The one thing that I really don't like is the fact that the hide smells, I've
>never had any of my hides smell and I think it's a sign that something is not
>right.
	
	I wasn't happy with this, but at least it wasn't a real rotting corpse
smell (like a dead cow, or something).  After I put it in the alum+salt solution
last night, it suddenly didn't smell near as bad.  The last day it was covered
with salt, the garage finally got better smelling.

	Time will tell (and then I'll tell you all in here..)


Thanks for the input!


Steve, the hide-buster

Well, I pulled the hide out of the alum/salt solution, rinsed it 3x with cold
water, 3x with warm water, shampooed it with hair shampoo and Ivory liquid 
(mixed) and rinsed it 3x more with warm water.  At this point, all the soap 
was out.  Nothing like picking up a 50-ish pound wet deer hide a couple 
dozen times on a 30-degree night. 

The hair is all intact, it doesn't seem to be shedding, and it smells faintly 
of ivory liquid and somewhat like a wet dog.  But, all the really rank 
deer-musk smell is gone, hopefully for good.

It seems to be drying very slowly, but that's o.k. by me.  I'll put neatsfoot
oil on it tonight, and start working it a bit (hoping the hair doesn't come
out).



Steve

    		For what it's worth.  I hope you aren't planning
    on using the hide as a rug because deer hair is hollow and 
    WILL fall out over time, especially if tread on a lot....
    
                    Bob

Nope, it's going to cover the top of a Lane cedar chest that has a the cheesiest
(factory installed!) black vinyl padded top on it, right now.  This will be a 
low-wear use for the hide.   I don't think any hide could handle use as a rug,
for the long term.


Steve

Well, I'm done with the hide, and here is what I learned:

	Don't let it dry completely (of water) before you put the neatsfoot oil
	on the hide.  If you do, it won't absorb it as well.  Also, the dry 
	parts are like ceramic...

	Hanging a hide causes the upper part to dry more quickly.  Consider
	rotating the hide end-for-end during the drying process.  Don't nail
	the hide to a board in (only) four places - it stretches around the
	nails and makes it nearly impossible to work these stretched parts 
	after they dry (to the ceramic-like condition).

	Work the hide over the file-rounded end of a 2x4 in your bench vise	
	_before_ it gets dry.  It's much harder afterword.  Work it early and
	often.

	The hide will shrink laterally (across the deer) if you don't work
	it while damp.  The shrinkage can be surprisingly great, and makes the
	hair look funny (bunched up, in a way).
	
In spite of the smelly hide, and the washing (mentioned earlier), my hide is 
now odor-free, fairly soft, and the hair seems very tight.  I guess there is
some latitude in the directions, if my experience shows anything.  I hardly 
did it the way you're supposed to, but not by choice.

I might even do it next year, now that I have learned where you can take short
cuts and where you cannot.  Fortunately, my use doesn't require that the hide
or tanning efforts be perfect.  I think an elk hide (should I ever get one) 
would be best sent to the pros, as they will weigh a ton when wet.

Thanks for the comments, as usual.

Steve

This is probably one of those shutting the barn door after the cows are
out type questions, but I'll ask anyway.

I have an elk hide that I'm thinking of tanning.  Actually, I want
to perserve the hide with the hair on.  Who knows, maybe I'll get
into fly tying and have a lifetime supply of elk hair.

Anway, I may be too late but thought I'd ask anyway.  All that I have
done with he hide, other than take it off of the animal, is to nail
it up on my back yard fence.  It's sort of stretched out.

It's been out there for about a month, and it is dry and hard, and
there's still fat and meat on the hide.  Is there anything that can
be done to a hide at this point, or should I just chunk it?

Any and all suggestions welcome.

Jerry

>It's been out there for about a month, and it is dry and hard, and
>there's still fat and meat on the hide.  Is there anything that can
>be done to a hide at this point, or should I just chunk it?

	I tanned a hide last year that I bought for $5 from a butcher.  It 
was already rather ripe, but the tanning totally took the smell out.  


	I'd lay it out on your garage floor (or wherever) and trim off all the
fat and meat with a sharp knife.  Then, buy about 6-8 26oz. containers of 
*non-iodized* salt, and dump them on the hide.  The salt should be 1/4" thick.
Generally, you need to heavily salt to extract the moisture - but your hides
are dry.  The salt will kill the various bacterial stuff going on.  Anyway,
I'd leave it salted for a while (week?) until it's good and dry.  (Iodized salt
will turn the hide yellow.)  You might set the hide hair-down on cardboard,
rather than concrete, so that the moisture will go through, rather than stay
trapped under the hide.  

	After that, follow the tanning recipe in this file (or get some tanning
solution at the Tandy leather store at Palmer Park/Academy) and follow their
directions.  I'm just finishing up some de-haired elk hide, and three pieces of
hair-on hide.  Removing the hair is another step (involving hydrated lime), but
was kind of fun.

	To answer your question - I think the hide is still salvagable, unless
it's really rotten, and the only issue is that hair tends to fall out of 
mis-treated hides a bit easier than ones that were promptly tanned.  If you 
plan to de-hair the hide, then that doesn't matter.  Even my rotted, rank hide
from last year hasn't lost any hair to speak of.

	Good luck!



steve

If the hide has dried before you start the tanning process it'll never be a soft
hide.  By this time the fibres would have cemented together and you'll never
break them apart, if the hide has dried flat and your happy with that shape it
might not be a problem.  Any attempt to bend the hide will cause it to crack.

What happens if you grab a tuft of hair and give it a pull does it come out?  If
it does you'll never save the hide.  As a previous noter said the salt kills the
bacteria, it's this bacteria that destroys the hair folicle so you may be too
late. 

If you don't tan the hide everytime it rains or gets damp the hide will soak up
moisture and give off a wonderful aroma of rotting flesh, which is in fact what
is happening.

But hey what do you have to loose at this stage $1 worth of salt against a hide
that will give you memories of the hunt for a lifetime - buy the salt.


Glenn


P.S. Must have been a bit on the nose during the last month expecially if it has
meat on it.