Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

        I myself have only been using a muzzle loader for two years.
    The first year I was lucky enough to get my deer the first day out.
    Last year I hunted all week and left my charge in my gun all week
    only to shoot it the day after the season closed. I passed up two
    does due to the fact that I didn't have a doe permit. In Maine
    the law says that you can not have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle.
    Also it states that in order for a muzzel loader to be considered
    loaded it must have a charge of powder, some sort of projectile,
    and a means of primer (cap or primer charge). With out any one of
    the three your gun is not considered to be loaded.         ---
                                                                   
                                     
                                                        Mike
    

    As in .1 it is also true in Ohio. The means of ignition must
    be removed.
    
    As far as how long, there are folks that leave it loaded all week
    and have had little problem. As a suggestion what we do is load
    the powder followed by a couple of dry pillow tick patches, followed
    by the crisco greased patch and ball. Have never had a problem
    with fouled powder even when I left it loaded 4 days but lately
    have started pulling the ball each day. Keeping a piece on innertube
    over the nipple and the hammer down will keep moisture from entry.
    If you use the dry patch/crisco patch method be sure that you check
    and verify the sighting with that combination since it could change
    the point of impact slightly. Also be very sure that it is seated
    tightly on the powder and check it a couple of times during the
    day. One final thought, don't use spit or any water based lube when
    you anticipate temperatures close to freezing.
    Happy hunting...

    
    Steve, Ive been hunting with a M/L in N.H. for 11 years. 
    
    To answer you first question: YES with the CAP removed from your
    Thunder-stick the gun is legaly UN-Loaded.
    
    
    Your second Question: How long can I leave powder and ball in barrel?
    
    In 1977 I learned a lesson, After the days hunt I removed the cap
    wiped down the gun and brought it into camp. The next day I had
    a mis-fire, as the deer ran off laughing I was wondering what happen.
    
    What had happen was that I brought the gun in from the cold to the
    warm camp and back out into the cold again which resulted in
    condensation. Since then I remove the cap and leave the gun out-side
    locked in the Bronco. Once I load with powder and maxi-ball the
    gun never comes in the house unless Im hunting weekends then I fire
    it off after the days hunt on Sunday. Thou most of my hunting party
    never had a problem We mostly practice the above with-out problems
    for over 10 years.
    
    Hope this helped and good luck to ya. Its a lot of fun.
    
    Regards,
    Rick...........

    		Since nobody mentioned it, and in case you didn't
    already know, if you fire the gun and then reload, it will have
    to be cleaned at the end of the day. You'll either have to fire
    it or pull the ball etc. There's an old saying about muzzle loaders
    "The sun must never set on a dirty gun"  this is because rusting
    will probably begin to happen overnight.
    
    	Just for what it's worth,
    
    		George
    

    
     re .-all
    
        Thanks for the good info.  I'm now anxiously awaiting Oct. 29.
    
     Steve
     

    Steve:
    
      The tip about leaving the gun outside is right on! Believe you
    me, any moisture on the powder or cap/priming charge means trouble.
    
      I've also found that it ISN'T necessary to fire off a couple of
    caps before loading your rifle. The residue from firing a cap att-
    racts moisture too, not to the extent of blackpowder, but never
    the less it does. What you want is a COMPLETELY dry and oil free
    interior of your rifle. First thing is to take a large shotgun
    cleaning rod and eyelet and put half a paper towel in the eyelet.
    Then, put the ends of the paper towel down the barrel BEFORE insert-
    ing the cleaning rod. This will get the paper towel touching the
    BOTTOM of the barrel so that it can absorb all the moisture and
    oil that has accumulated down there. Do this with as many clean
    P.T.'s as is needed till they come out clean and completely dry
    and oil free. Then make sure that your nipple is completely dry
    and oil free, and do the same with the flash channel remembering
    to remove the side screw so that you can get access to the channel.
    Use Q-tips, pipe cleaners, etc. to make sure that the channel is
    completely dry and oil-free.
    
      Then, replace the side screw and nipple. Load your powder. If you're
    using a maxi-ball, just make sure that you put the lube in the 
    grooves. You shouldn't have any problem whatsoever with the lube
    getting to the powder and neutralizing it for "the entire deer
    season" (one or two months at most...).
    
      Another thing you'll want to do is keep water out of the cap. The
    way I do it is by carrying a bit of "bullet lube (alox)" or beeswax
    with me. If it's going to be raining, or IS raining I'll cap the
    rifle, then take some of the waxy lube on my little finger and smear
    it on the cap to effectively seal the cap against moisture getting
    to it. DO NOT substitute "maxi-lube" or crisco with beeswax. This
    stuff will seep up into the cap and possibly neutralize it...
    
      
    Hope these tips help. I've had mis-fire problems in the past, and
    these procedures cured them completely!
    
    
    Joe                                                               
    

    
      Thanks Joe,
    
         The only area I think I'll have trouble drying out is the
      flash channel.  I've got a new T/C Renagade and they no longer
      have a clean-out screw on the side of the bolster.   The only
      way I think I can do it is to remove the nipple and use a good
      fuzzy pipe cleaner with some alcohol for a degreaser. 
    
         I've been shooting round balls but plan on using maxi-balls
      for whitetail.  I think the maxi's will be easyer to deal with
      under hunting conditions.  Plus, at 370 grains they should do
      a very good job on deer.  As soon as I get my gun back from the
      shop (having peep sight installed) I'll be spending some serious
      time practicing for deer season.         
    
                                      
      Steve

    Steve:
    
      You're doing one of the BEST things I can think of for any deer
    rifle. Having a peep-sight installed! You'll love it... They are
    sooooo much better than standard open sights...
    
      You might want to look into some 50 cal "Buffalo Bullets". My
    hunting partner took a deer last year with a Buffalo Bullet and
    it would've anchored a moose, nevermind the deer he took! And acc-
    urate! They are very accurate!  PLUS, they are pre-lubed so you
    don't have to mess with the Maxi-lube (baby ka-ka) junk...
    
      You're definitely NOT bad off using maxi-balls though... If you
    use maxi-balls here's a good trick: Get one of those Garcia-Vega
    cigar tubes and pre-lube about 4 or 5 maxi's and slide 'em in nose
    first. That way they'll be coming out base first when reloading.
    Or, you can just get some of those "speed loaders".
    
      One more... Try out fffg blackpowder instead of the old standby
    ffg. Your Renegade should be able to handle a 80-90 grain charge
    of fffg. That stuff (fffg) "seems" to ignite much easier than ffg,
    and it give you a pleasing KAAA_RACK! instead of the SHEEE_BOOOM!
    of ffg. I use it in my 58 cal Springfield Stalker, and it's great!
    No accuracy difference between the two that I can see...
    
    Welcome to the world of the "smelly guns"
    
    
    Joe

    
    A word of caution may be in order here regarding using 3f in place
    of 2f. There have been many many articles that relate to the 
    possibility of increased pressure by using 3f. I have to stress
    the word possibility as I have seen many printed opinions rather than
    proven facts. It however seems logical to me to expect higher
    pressures particulary when using any of the non-round ball projectles
    in the faster twist rifles.
    Have a good season,
    
    Dick
    
    

    You may get *some* pressure increase from the finer granulation,
    but I doubt it would be critical. Remember, black powder is not
    a progressive burner, generating steep pressure curves. 
    
    The problem of granulation making a difference is important
    when using smokeless powders. The example that comes to mind
    is Hercules Bullseye and Unique powders. Same formulation,
    different granulation. Substituting the fine-grained Bullseye
    for Unique loading data guarantees problems. 
    
    Dana

    Sounds like we could have a lively topic here...as I mentioned there
    seems to be no "real" data either way although I have read of a
    couple of tests run by bbrl makers in Muzzle Blasts which I'll
    try to dig up that made reference to this. In general you are
    probably quite right by saying *some* but without "real" numbers
    I wonder how much *some* really is. It may be fine for one bbrl
    and be disasterous for another espically if it was a thin,ringed,
    buldged or pitted bore. You are right in that there is a distinct
    difference in the sound (boom vs crack) which logically would suggest
    higher MV. The most important thing (getting back) is to use the
    proper load for the rifle and be damned sure that ball is down on
    the powder.
    I'll attempt to find the articles and post them if there is interest.
    
    dick   
    

    
      I picked up my ML the other day and put about 30 rounds through
    it.  The peep sight is incredibly accurate.  I did find that I had
    to clean the bore more often with the maxi-balls (4 rounds vs 6
    with round ball) but I can handle that.  Joe had a good suggestion
    with using the cigar tubes for storing pre-lubed maxi's. That stuff
    sure is messy.  I've got some T/C speed loaders but for target shoot-
    ing the tubes will work fine.  Now I'll have to convince the people
    in the office that I switched to cigars for a good cause.
    
     Well, it looks like the jury is still out on 2f vs 3f.  I just
    opened a new can of 2f and will probably go through the season with
    that.
    
    Steve
    

    I found one of the articles regarding 2f vs 3f. It was in the 
    Jan '85 issue of Muzzle Blasts. If anybody wants a copy please
    send me mail on CARLSN::STUART and I will blast a xerox out.
    Basiclly the article discusses safe loading practices for hunting
    rifles. He does touch on the 3f/2f subject with the following
    test...54 cal rifle with 100 gr 3f got the same mv as a 140 gr
    charge of 2f....but the 2f load in spite of its 40 extra gr load
    got the same mv with 25% less pressure. One of the fundamental rules
    of loading any firearm is to gain the most velocity with the least
    pressure thus in 45 cal and above 2f would be the choice. Also he
    makes reference to oscilloscope tests on bbrl pressure which tend
    to indicate that bp does not all burn at once as is assumed. The
    pressure trace of 3f sees a very fast initial rise, indicating quich
    and easy ignition, then there is a slight drop followed by a gradual
    rise to the peak pressure with tapering relaxation, not a fast drop
    in pressure.
    
    So there you have it, as I said I will mail a copy to anybody who
    wants it and will continue to find other references as time permits.
    
    BTW I use 3f in my 32 cal squirrel flinter and 2f in my browning
    50 cal mountain rifle.
    
    good luck,
    
    dick

    Another suggestion for carrying the maxi-balls after they are lubed
    is to use wax paper.  The wax paper twists up nicely, and it keeps
    the package small.  It is also cheaper than a speed-loader.
    
    Ed..
    

Just as an aside, it makes logical sense that the mv of a round is higher 
when using fff in place of ff.  The reason is this.

The assumption is being made that all other factors are the same.  This
includes the setting of the powder measure that you are using.  If you
don't change the volumn setting of the measure, then you are actually
loading MORE powder when using fff than if you are using ff. The fff powder
is finer grained than ff and packs tighter than ff, just as ffff packs
tighter than fff.  Hence you are actually loading a heavier charge when you 
switch from a course grained powder to a finer grained powder (and you 
don't change the volumn setting of your measure).

Another way to see this is by taking a measure of ff powder, grind it up
with a glass bottle on a wooden or plastic or glass board so that it is
about fff or ffff is size.  Then remeasure the the powder.  See how much
less volumn the powder takes up?  That's what's happening when you use ff
and fff interchangably.  So the idea is that if you are near a max load
with ff powder and switch to fff powder, you may have exceed the max load 
since you have to put more fff powder into your measure to fill it up.

It's always good to understand why things are done the way they are.  The 
reason black powder is measured by volumn and not by weight is that BP is 
very hydroscopic, that is, it absorbs moisture easy.  It is so good at 
absorbing moisture in fact, that it can soak it up right out of the air.  
In fact, it can soak so much  water from the air that the added weight of 
moisture can change the weight of the powder.  This variableness of the 
weight of BP for a given volumn is so great that the measuring of BP by 
volumn is more accurate than the measuring of BP by weight.  That's why we 
use volumn measurements.  HOWEVER, this is all thrown out the window when 
you change any of the other factors, such the granulation of the powder you 
are using.

Anyway, I've been on vacation and I figured I'd add my 2 cents and get back 
into the swing of things.

Rich

    re.15...I suspect that the main reason is not the difference by
    weight of 2 otherwise identical loads ie. 100gr measures. Back in
    .13 the experiment indicated clearly that 3f developed higher
    pressure even though the 2f load was 40% heavier. I am going to
    weigh 2 100gr loads(measured) from unopened cans of 3f and 2f tonight
    and will add the results later.  For what it's worth, be careful
    when using glass around BP as an inclusion in the form of a bubble
    can act like a magnifing glass and light off the powder, it has
    been known to happen. Also, the statement about hydroscopic tendencies
    of our beloved powder are entirely correct I suspect that the reason
    charges were measured by volume rather than weight was that very
    few people who used BP in early America had scales, thus they had
    to measure by volume.
    
    more later,
    dick

    Well I did the measurements....using the same measure each time
    and tapping it several times to settle the contents. Nominal
    setting was 100gr, each can of powder was unopened.
    
    		2f		3f		4f
        
    		101.5		100.9		102.4
    		101.2		100.7		104.0
    		100.4		101.6 		104.8
    		102.4		100.7		104.2
    
    	Avg	101.38		100.98		103.85
    
    So there we have it, not that much difference in the actual weights
    although I am somewhat stumped as to why the 3f came in behind the
    2f as I would have expected it to weigh slightly more than 2f and
    slightly less than 4f. Possibly it is due to a moisture content 
    difference from the factory. I do not know how close the manufactures
    maintain tolerances on such things. So the only "conclusion" I can
    draw is that the increase in MV and more importantly the significant
    increase in pressure is due not to weight but to the rate at which
    3f is "burned" as compared to 2f when confined in the breech.
    
    Bow season is coming up.....oh boy oh boy oh boy!!!!
    
    regards,
    dick	

    Somehow, that message of a week ago go cut-off... Oh well... to
    continue.....
    
    The Minie' that they used for that African "Blackpowder" safari
    also incorporated an extra thick skirt to avert a "whistler" (a
    blown skirt). I can't remember if I mentioned how much fffg they
    used for their load... it was 180 grains. They had gone as high
    as 200 grains of the fffg, but settled on the lower loading.
    
      After I read this story I came to believe that if you use the
    same, or slightly less fffg as opposed to ffg, that you'll be
    alright... And you'll get better ignition in my humble opinion...
    The Navy arms Hamken Hunter in .58 is about the same, *strength-
    wise*, as the T/C Hawkens and Renegades. Thompson/Center's re-
    commended loadings of ffg in a .54 with the Maxi is the 435 grain Maxi
    with 120 grains of ffg. Using the same bullet, and substituting
    100-110 grains of fffg isn't an overload by any stretch of the imag-
    ination... as is 80-90 grains of fffg with the 370 grain Maxi in
    the .50 cal.
                                                            
      FFFg is a good powder for large caliber muzzleloaders!
    
    
    Joe
      

    I've had just the opposite experience with pyrodex. It has caused
    many misfire. I went back to black powder and that solved my problem.
    
    sjn

Has anyone tried the Buffalo Bullets (or maybe they're called Buffalo
Slugs)?  I think that they're made by Lyman, but I'm not sure.  I have
seen them, and they're a conical (sort of) hollow-point bullet.

The reason I ask is because the other day at the range I was talking
to a guy who was shooting a muzzle loader.  I started asking
him about what loads he was using and in general just trying to
pick his brains.  Here's what he told me.  By the way, I don't know
this guy from Adam and don't have any idea if he knows what he's
talking about.  However, he did seem to be knowledgable sort, and
he was shooting pretty darn well.

Anyway, this guy was shooting a 50 cal. T/C rifle which he had put
together from a kit.  Looked like he had done a decent job.  He
started telling me about how he used it in an elk hunter a few
years earler.  He was shooting round balls and using 100 grs. of
FFg.  He claimed that he had shot, and hit, 8 elk during that
hunt and didn't get a single one (I don't believe that I would
tell anyone something like this).  He blamed his poor results
on the round ball.  He even told me that one cow went down and
was absolutely still for several minutes before it jumped up
and ran off.

Then, he said that he had attended some sort of seminar about bp
hunting and the guy giving the seminar said that he should use the
buffalo bullet (or slug).  That it didn't matter what the rifling
rate was, because it shot ok regardless of the spin (I have been
told that a 1 in 66" rate was good for round balls and that a
1 in 48" twist was best for the conical bullets).  He tried these
and said that his son, who shoots a 54 with a 1 in 66" twist, gets
good accuracy from them.  He also claims that they are a much more
dealy bullet than the round ball, but that they make the gun kick
a whole lot harder.  It even cracked his stock near the hammer.

That's about it.  I apologize for rambling, but I just wanted to
include all of the pertinent facts.  So, has anyone tried these?
And what kind of results have you experienced?

Thanks,

Jerry

Has anyone tried the HotShot Nipples?  I've read that they are supposed
to be more reliable than the standard nipple, and that they also
result in better powder burn.

Thanks,

Jerry

P.S.  This reply and the previous one (about buffalo bullets) are
cross posted in the firearms notes file.

    
    re .22
    
    Jerry,
    
    I've only been into this for 1 year, but I've done quite a bit of 
    reading on it.  From what I recall everyone seems to agree that the
    round ball has enough stopping power for whitetail deer.  It seemed like
    a general concensus that the round ball created a better wound channel,
    and ususally transferred 100% of its energy into the animal.  Picture
    the round ball opening up like a small pie plate as it travels through
    the deer.  According to the articles very rarely did the ball travel
    through a whitetail.  From my memory none of them recommended round
    balls for anything larger than whitetails.  They just don't have the
    penetration, even on large whitetails it was suggested you go to the
    Maxi-hunter (ball) or Buffalo bullets.  Maxi-Hunter are the latest from
    T/C, and are suppose to expande better than the Maxi-ball variety, the
    Hunter is a slight hollow point, much like a shotgun slug.  I've also
    heard from some people around here that shoot a lot more than be that
    the "Buffalo Bullet" from Lyman, does not produce as consistent results
    as the ones offered by T/C.  They claim the castings are too
    inconsistent.  I've never tried both, I'd be interested in your results
    if you go with the Buffalo's.
    
    For the purist the round ball and patch are the only way, for the realist 
    (me) the Maxi-Ball or Hunter is the way to go.  There's more energy,
    better accuracy, excellent expansion (so they say), and better
    penetration on larger game.  By the way, the authors recommended thinking 
    like a bow-hunter, with the muzzleloader...that is shoot for the vitals, 
    lungs, heart, and major artery centers.  Do not use the muzzleloader with 
    a high power rifle mentality, you will loose a lot of game.  My guess is 
    this is how your acquaintance viewed the weapon/sport.
    
    I have yet to kill a whitetail with mine.  I shoot a T/C White Mountain
    Carbine, it's very accurate with the Maxi-Balls.  I'm pushing 90 gr. of
    Pyrodex...my guess is his stock is cracking because he's over charging
    his loads...his stock should not crack if he's following the book on
    loads.  By the way, I can't remember off hand what flavor of the
    Pyrodex I was using, I could post if you're interested.
    
    I had a splendid time hunting deer with it last year, saw 3 bucks, 1
    was running at 80 yds...not a good shot.  And 2 were just little
    nubbers, or button bucks.  But they'll be back this year with a bit
    more bone...
    
    Good luck,
    
    Kevin

Jerry,

I have a T/C Hawken and a T/C Renegade, both in .54 cal.

I LOVE T/C guns , But I don't use the T/C nipples.  They used to flatten
over and I sometimes got misfires and couldn,t get the cap off. I think the
steel they use is soft. Instead, I always use HOT-SHOT Nipples (Uncle Mike's
of Oregon ?) in Size 11. They ALWAYS fire for me, and don't deform nearly as
much. I believe that the ignition is hotter and faster, because Hot-SHOTs have
a small air hole sideways through the top of the nipple.

Bottom line is, they work GREAT for me.


                                     Dave H. (who hasn't shot one yet with
                                               a smokepole, but is psyched !)

    I took a nice button buck a couple of years ago using a T/C New Englander
in 50 cal with the Buffalo bullet. The range was about fourty yard and I was
using 90 grain of fffg powder. You could stick your thumb in the entrance hole
and the bullet pulled some of the guts out the silver dollars size exit hole.
I've never seen such a wound channel. I've hunted with the Buffalo Bullet ever
since. BTW. the Buffalo Bullet is made by the Buffalo Bullet Company.

sjn

    I'd like to pick the brains of all you serious blackpower fanatics out
    there...  I'm currently in the market for a smokepole, finally rid
    myself of the 56 cal smoothbore...
    
    looking into a sporterized hawken with rifled 29" barrel...
    
    The question is; which caliber is better for deer???  45? 50? 54? 58?
    My gut feeling is 54 but I'd like some input before I drop the $$$
    
    Any takers???  Rick, Joe, Dana, Barry???? anyone???
    
    Fra

    Fra:
    
      I used to have a T/C Renegade in 54 cal. It was a great rifle "power-
    wise" for just about anything in North America. Only thing bad about
    the Renegade was that it weighed a ton :-) !!! By the end of the day
    you KNEW you had a package in your paws. 
    
      This is one reason that I'd stay away from the "heavy style"
    muzzleloaders. The type of hunting I do while carrying mine (stomping
    over hill and dale for about 5 miles each day) dictates that it be
    "handy". Of course, if you're one to hunt from a stand for the major-
    ity of your hunting, then just about any muzzleloader of an adequate
    caliber will do.
    
      I lucked out about 8 years ago and had a buddy (Steve Niemi, who just
    recently TFSO'ed) who found an H&R Springfield Stalker in 58 caliber.
    My wife gave him the money to get it for her, then she gave it to me
    as a birthday present (whadda gal, eh?!). Anyway, this is one of the
    best of the modern muzzleloaders that you'll ever find. Unfortunately
    they aren't made anymore. Even this muzzleloader has some drawbacks,
    such as a VERY slow rifling twist, which just about requires it to be
    used as a roundball launcher. Actually, that's not bad when were
    talking 58 caliber, but roundballs limit your shots to well under 100
    yards.
    
      Which brings us to your original question. My humble opinions follow:
    
      If you're going to be doing alot of still hunting, stump shooting,
    drives, etc. get a handy muzzleloader like the White Mtn. Carbine. 
    Either 50 or 54 is great for deer. I'd go with the 54 since they use
    the same barrel blanks for both the 50 and 54 but the 54 is of course
    drilled out with a bigger hole, therefore it's lighter! :-) And also
    it's more powerful! :-) ... There's no need to get the new T/C "Big
    Boar" rifle in 58 cal unless you're intending to hunt Elk or Moose.
    The T/C rifles are made with a faster rifling twist which is intended
    to be used with conical bullets. My rule of thumb for muzzloaders in-
    tended for deer pertaining to caliber/bullet/load is this: If a 45 cal
    rifle, use conical bullets at the top end of the loading scale. 50
    or 54, use either making sure that they are loaded with an adequate
    charge (like about 90 to 100 grains of ffg for either with a conical
    bullet), and for the 58 cal, a roundball is all you need, but if you
    use a conical don't push the high end of the power scale...
    
      So, get a T/C White Mtn. Carbine in 54 caliber and you'll be all
    set!
    
    Joe

Fra,

There are two other things that I would consider besides caliber.  Those
are rate of twist of the barrel, and what kind of sights comes with
the rifle.  Some of the cheaper bp rifles have fairly primitive sights,
and may not hold up very well.  You can probably get after market
sights, but it's something you should consider.

The other thing, as I mentioned before, is rate of twist.  The faster
the rate, the better suited the barrel is to conical bullets.  For
example, a .50 caliber with a 1 in 66" twist probably won't handle
conical bullets very well.  A 1 in 48" supposedly is middle ground
for both conical and round balls.  Anything faster should be
geared more toward the conicals. And, FWIW, it seems that conicals
are superior to the round ball in lots of ways.  For one thing,
there seems to be a bigger variety of conicals available.

If you think you may come out west after elk someday, you would
probably be more comfortable with a .54.

Jerry

    
    Fra,
    
    I have a T/C White MTN Carbine...What a sweet gun.  It's an absolute
    pleasure to shoot and carry.  I believe it weighs in at about 6 lbs.
    Mine is the 50 Cal. variety, and man does it shoot.  It has very nice
    adjustable iron sights, and with them you can plug Maxi-balls in a 1"
    group at 50 yds.  From a bench I can keep them in a 3" circle at 100
    yds.  I've never shot a deer with it...hoping to get a doe permit this
    year so the odds should go up.  It's the favorite gun in my small
    arsenal.
    
    Good luck with whatever you choose.
    
    Kevin

    re .29
    
      As far as the rifles (usually from Italy) with the cheap sights...
    I'd say "stay away from the whole rifle BECAUSE of the rifle, not
    just because it has cheap sights!" :-)
    
      For deer (which I'm assuming that Fra is going after exclusively
    with his rifle) A roundball in anything 50 cal and above is plenty
    of medicine for even the biggest whitetail in these parts! If I had
    a T/C White Mtn. Carbine for example in 54 cal, I would very much
    consider using a roundball in it, especially if it shot as good or
    better than the maxiball. In the Renegade that I used to have, the
    roundballs shot just fine with accuracy equal to the maxiball. T/C
    barrels with a 1 in 48" twist will stabilize a roundball... You also
    have the added benefit on not getting hammered everytime you pull
    the trigger when you have a roundball up the spout. 
    
    Fra:
    
      It is my opinion, after seeing/butchering a number of deer shot
    with both the roundball and the maxi type bullets, that a maxi ball
    while very effective, is not a "must have" unless you're using a
    45 cal ML. All the deer that I've seen shot (and have shot myself)
    with a roundball were dead within 50 yards of the hit, and had com-
    plete penetration. Two deer that Steve Niemi took with 50 cal buffalo
    bullets were "fairly well buggered" by those hunks of lead. One, a
    100 lbs buck, had a fist sized hole on the exit wound, and the other
    was hit in the spine with a wound channel that was the size of the
    meaty part of a baseball bat. On the other hand, the 5 or 6 deer that
    I've seen taken with roundballs invaribly had neat entrance/exit wounds
    and very little meat damage. Of course, this isn't the bottom line
    or reasons why I choose to use a roundball. I just feel that maxiballs
    of 370 grains up to and bordering on 500 grains of soft lead, and
    charged at or near max (which is where most maxi/buffalo bullet
    shooters load to) are not necessary for whitetails. Do they do a
    good job? Of course! But, are they NEEDED/are roundballs inadequate?
    No.
    
      So, don't worry about the rifling twist in a T/C if it's a 1-48"
    twist. It should stabilize the roundball well, and will of course
    stabilize the conical type bullet if you choose that. Also, stick with
    a good American made ML like the T/C's. I'm not sure where the Lyman
    rifles are made, but they are also made very well. DON'T get a cheap
    muzzleloader!! After having the 56 smooth-ie you'll recognize quality
    over cheapness!!!
    
    
    Joe

                      More Questions has anybody seen those
                      muzzle loader bullets. That are made
                      for 50 cal, But they are 44cal. slugs
                      with plastic insert around them.
                      The guy at the store said they are 
                      super accurate.  Anyone ever tried 
                      them.
    Mike

              Yep, I believe they are called sabots.  I know
    a few guys that swear by them.  
              No luck yet Mike??
    
                      Bob

    Thanks for all the info so far guys... I suppose it'd be a good idea to
    also get some info on how good the guns are that i'm looking at...
    
    I've looked at the TC's but their a little pricey... Cabela's has a
    dandy looking Hawken, with a 29" barrel, and another version
    (sporterized) with a rubber buttpad and black trim...  sights look to
    be adjustable rear with gold beaded partrige blade up front.  twist 
    rates were different for each caliber... cut checkering etc... I don't 
    have the catalog here, so I don't have the details...   
    Anyone seen the one i'm talking about??? selling for about $180 or so...
    Hows it rate???  any good??? worth looking into???
    
    
    I loved my TC Renegade SB, but Mass changed the laws and I got a good 
    price when I sold it, so now i'm looking into Rifled ML's.
    Appreciate all the help so far... keep it coming...
    
    Thanks, Fra

RE:                    <<< Note 198.30 by BTOVT::REMILLARD_K >>>
                              -< T/C White MTN. >-

	I've seen Kevin's T/C Carbine and his targets.  Very nice gun.
	Thats the one I would get if I ever took up MLing.

    Have you considered the modern style muzzleloaders with an in-line
    ignition. Knight and Gonic have been making them for years but CVA and
    other manufacturers are also starting to make them.  I purchased a
    Knight this summer and I'm looking forward to 10/31.
    
    Anyone else out there use a Knight or other in-line ignition bp rifle?
    
    -donmac

    
    Okay muzzleloading enthusiasts, how does one get consistency out of
    patched round balls?  I shoot a T/C White Mountain Carbine that will
    drive nails with maxi-balls, but haven't been able to come close to
    reproducing those results with patched round balls. 
    
    Now it could be the gun, it has a very short barrel, something like
    22".  I don't know the barrel twist rate off hand, but it is rifled.
    
    So far my groups are averaging 6" at 30 yds., not ideal, but not having
    anything to go by is this what to expect?  Should I be able to get
    better results? 
    
    Comments welcome.
    
    Kevin

    re .-1
    
      You should be getting better results than that... Some things to
    check/be sure of:
    
      Make sure you're using the proper sized roundball AND patch. I found
    that if I "don't" have to hammer the roundball in with my fist while
    using a short-starter, that the fit of my ball/patch combination is
    too loose. You've got to have a super tight fit.
    
      If you're using roundballs that are cast as opposed to swagged make
    sure that the sprue (the "cutoff" mark) is in a consistant position
    from shot to shot. Most people shoot cast roundballs "sprue-up". Better
    yet, get the swagged roundballs available from Hornady, Speer, etc.
    These are the closest to a true ball shape that you can get. There's
    NO sprue to deal with either, just put the patch on the muzzle, put
    the ball on the patch, and ram it home :-) ...
    
      T/C barrels are a sorta compromise between a straight "conical bullet
    barrel" and a "roundball barrel". They have a 1 in 48" twist, which is
    OK for roundballs, but they also have "shallow groove rifling" which
    is usually the culprit when roundballs fail to shoot well out of a T/C
    barrel. The shallow groove rifling is ideal for the maxi type bullets. 
    The Maxi bullet works on the principle of "bullet upset". (upon
    firing, the bullet is hammered from the rear end by the charge going
    off. This makes the bullet "shorter", and also causes the bullet to
    scrunch into the rifling). Shallow groove rifling is ideal for bullet
    upset. It minimizes the distance that the bullet has to "upset" into,
    and this increases accuracy and limits "gas blow by".
    
      So, if I were you and I was having no luck getting patched roundballs
    to fly well, I'd give either the Maxiball, Maxihunters, or buffalo
    bullets a try. More than likely one of the latter 3 will shoot well.
    
    Joe

    
    re .38
    
    Thanks for the inputs...you really seem to know this muzzle stuff.
    
    I have shot maxi-balls and have had impressive results, 2.0" groups at
    50 yds.   I may be hunting in NY which has a patched round-ball
    requirement.
    
    I am using Hornady, .490" round balls, with T/C (pre-lubed) patches. 
    They do go in hard, about the same as a maxi-ball.  One thing I have
    noticed is the ball starter puts an indentation on the ball, since it
    requires a lot of pressure to initially seat the ball in the barrel.
    Could this be a problem, if so should I 'pad' the ball when starting
    it?
    
    Any clue on the ballistics of a 175 gr. round ball being driven by 80
    grains of RS Pyrodex?  I'm sighting in about 3" high at 25 yds., but
    haven't gotten the consistency to move back to 50 and 100 yds.  So 3"
    high is just a wild guess.  I would like to be flat at 50, 3" is
    probably too high, more like 1-2" I would guess...
    
    Keep it coming...
    
    Kevin
    

    Kevin, I also own a T/C White Mountain and I found the same thing as
    you.  I talked to the owner of a sporting goods store down in my part
    of the state about this possible problem.  He told me that because of
    the shorter barrel and faster rate of twist the balls don't have enough
    time to start much of a rotation.  I have shot approx 200 round balls
    through my smoke stick since this spring and I would see groups around
    3" at 50 yards.  I went to the Great Plains bullet and could not
    believe the difference in the grouping or recoil.  

    I concur with .38, try a few combinations.  My T/C Renegade seems
    to like the Speer .495" swaged ball with .005" patch material.  I
    had been using some .490" with both .010" and .015" patch material
    and never got near as good as I do now.  Also, you'll need to try
    different charges - I cannot use the same amount of powder with
    the round ball as I do with the maxis and still get good accuracy.
    I use 85 gr of FFFg with the maxi but only 75 gr with the round
    ball.  Make sure you check a few spent patches for burning - a
    little scorching is OK, but charring is bad news.  Shooting over
    an old sheet or a fresh blanket of snow will show if you have much
    unburned powder spewing from the barrel - a good indicator to back
    off the charge.

	Mike

    
    I did notice the patches were scortched.  Some were blown apart.  I
    was using T/C's recommended load of 80 grs.  I used 90 grs. for the
    maxi-balls and this is a very good load.  I will back down to 70 and 
    see how that goes.
    
    Joe you're getting better groups than me, maybe I'll come talk to you
    about specifics...
    
    Kevin

Kevin,

You mentioned that you were using Pyrodex.  I've never been a real
big fan of Pyrodex because I got some pretty inconsistent ignition
with it in my shotgun several years ago.  I wonder whether the larger 
mass and hence slower acceleration of the maxis would tend to be more 
forgiving of inconsistent ignition?  You might try real BP instead and
see if that makes a difference.  

 - Dave

 re .43

Dave,

Thanks for the information.  To be honest I don't really know the difference
between Pyrodex and Black Powder.  I was told that Pyrodex is much more
forgiving to temperature changes, more reliable, and not as dirty (cleans
easier, allows more shots).  Anyone want to open a discussion on the 
advantages/disadvantages of BP vs. Pyro?

Kevin

    re .45
    
    Kevin,
    		I believe Pyro ignites at a higher temperature than BP.
    Maybe someone can correct me but it is 600F for Pyro and 300F for BP.
    Why is this important? I can only relate an experience we had hunting
    a couple of years ago.  It was opening day for front stokers and my
    friend and I we hunting the Irving State Forest.  Both of us had Pyro
    stuffed down our barrels.  It was a real cold morning, in the teens if
    not lower.  We were careful loading our guns that morning, they were
    kept dry and cold the night before, made sure our powder and caps were
    also dry.  About 9:00 am these 3 does come walking right at me and stop
    at about 25 yds.  I was down wind and behind a tree.  I fired at the
    biggest doe, the cap went off but not the powder.  They were startled
    but did not run so I fumbled with my frozen fingers to put another cap
    on.  Brought the gun up, took aim, squeezed, and heard the 2nd cap go
    off.  They still did not run but were now getting a little anxious. I
    somehow managed to get a 3rd cap on and - you guessed it - the cap blew
    off but not the powder.  This time they  figured something wasn't quite
    right so they started to wander away from me but were heading towards my
    friend about 200 yds away.  By this time I figured I must of had wet 
    powder so I put another cap on to clear the gun, aimed it up in the
    air, squeezed and it finally went off.  I figured it would alert my
    friend also that somthing was moving around.  About 5 minutes later 
    I hear him below.  That is, I heard HIS cap go off but no ignition.
    A couple of minutes later I heard his second one go off.  A few minutes
    after that he comes walking up towards me swearing so bad it would of 
    embarressed a drunken sailor.  He said the three does came wandering
    down towards him and were feeding right in front of him and his stupid
    gun wouldn't ignite.  
    	We both figured our powder was dry but because of the cold it just
    wouldn't ignite.  I found out later about the temperatures that Pyro
    and BP ignites at and converted over to BP after that without ever
    having any problems. Granted, Pyro is cleaner to use and easier to swab 
    out of a barrel, and I still use it for practice and sighting in.  But
    when the season comes all I will ever use is BP.  
    
    	I know this story isn't to scientific about the differences between
    the two powders but it is gonna take a lot of convincing to get me to
    switch over to Pyro again. 
    
    Ken

                           I orderd a peep site for my
                           New Englander this year. I have
                           missed two deer so far with my
                           Thunderstick. I don't want to make
                           three B^( . I figure it might help
                           me zero in a little better. Anyone 
                           ever installed a Tang peep site 
                           for a T/C.
    Thanks
    Mike G.  
                            

    I've never used Pyrodex as I was forewarned by a couple of "older"
    hunters (Walt Bowse and Dave Ayotte) ;^) of it's ignition problems.
    I've used FFFG and have never had a problem, other than the really wet
    days, or days where I brought the gun into the house after a cold day.
    Since learned to leave it outside in the garage till the next morning,
    to keep the condensation from ruining a hunt.  Even then it only took
    one bad cap before the gun went off.
    
    Ordered myself a new gun... looking forward to it's arrival!!!  all I
    need now is a peep sight and i'm ready to roll, course a little
    cooperation from a deer or 2 would also be nice. ;^)
    
    Fra

Has anyone tried the new (fairly) Hot Shot Nipples?  I wonder if
they would make a difference with Pyrodex on cold days?

Jerry

    
    Personally I've never had a problem with Pyrodex on cold days, I shot
    over 20 shots out of my gun last December when the temp was below zero
    without a single misfire.  Of course I follow some of the good advice
    that I read in this notesfile about leaving the gun outside, and using
    some wax to seal the cap/nipple during snow/rain.  I've never
    experienced a misfire, although a friend I shoot with has had several.
    There has to be some differences in the way we clean our guns (same
    gun, powder, projectile, etc.).  If I can get my hands on some fffg
    (what are the differences between the grades??) I will try some loads.
    
    Kevin

Miscellaneous ramblings from an avid muzzleloader (who never got a deer with 
one ....)  :

I use ONLY the Hot Shot Nipples from Uncle Mike's of Oregon. SInce I started 
using them, I haven't experienced the misfires I used to.

One other thing is REAL important ! Before you hunt (using a recently cleaned
gun), make sure you dry the oil out of the barrel, using a couple of dry 
cleaning patches, and then fire off several caps. I do this before I
drive to my hunting site. Then, when I get there, I just load up and hunt.

About burned patches :  If you are getting rings burned in your patches
(causing gas leakage and loss of accuracy), it's more likely due to 
insufficient libricant on the patch - patch is too dry, rather than
too much powder. A great Pennsylvania hunter friend of mine showed me 
how to deep fry my TC patches in a 70-30 mixture of Crisco and Beeswax
(got the wax from an old toilet seal ring, no less !). This really impregnates
the patches, and they load tight and shoot right !

Can't wait for the N.Y. Northern Zone Muzzleloading Season !!! Opens Oct 17.
We scouted in Osceola, N.Y., and saw about average deer sign.

N.H. looks good this year. My son and I saw great sign up around Peterborough
and Stoddard. Saw a turkey in Hancock.

Let's go get 'em.

Dave

    What kind of caps are you using? I gave up on CVA and CCI caps
    and now use nothing but RWS. These babies are _hot_. Fire a 
    couple of each through an unloaded barrel and you'll hear the
    difference. If an RWS won't ignite your powder, you'vr probably
    got a contamination problem.
    
    Hint - use some de-greaser ain your bore before loading up. THe
    old tape-head cleaning kits included a can of the stuff, works
    like a charm ;-)

    i'm using some german brand of caps (fahvernugen's i think) ;^)
    and they work great... Again, I was told to stay away from the CCI's et
    all...
    
    As someone else said, run some patches through your barrel to get every
    last speck of oil out of the breech, i then fire a couple of caps off,
    run one more patch through, and load it up...  
    
    Fra

    
    I'm using Dynamit Nobel caps (made by RWS I think), and they are HOT!!!
    In 3 years of shooting this gun, in excess of 100 rounds, I've never 
    had a misfire, and using Pyrodex to boot.
    
    Went back out to the range yesterday afternoon.  Made some changes to
    my setup.  First I noticed my patches were dry, in comparison to new
    patches.  Second the round balls I had were swagged, but they were in 
    a generic container - so I didn't know the manufacturer.  I thought
    they were Hornandy, but looking at my friends new Hornandy balls I had
    doubts...so I switched to a known ball.  I also dropped my load down to
    70 grains, vs. the 80 I was using.  
    
    First 3 shots from 50 yds. were in a 3" group.  100% improvement from 
    my previous outing.  After tweeking the sights a bit, I ended up with a
    2-3" group 2" high at 50 yds., this puts my ball 1" low at 25yds.  I 
    couldn't believe the difference!!!!  The biggest thing I noticed was
    how much harder these round balls started in the barrel from the other
    ones I was using, and it took quite a bit more effort to ram the load
    home (even in a clear bore).  It was very noticable, from the blanket 
    on the hood of my truck (shoot with sandbags over the hood of my
    truck), that there was much less powder residue on the blanket...a good
    sign I guess.
    
    So thanks for the suggestions, they were all good and made me look at
    my setup and make the proper changes.
    
    Kevin

Mike,

I put I peep on my New Englander and I couldn't be happier with the accuracy,
I shot 3" groups at 75 yds. from a bench with sandbags.

Bob

     
     RE 55         I got in the mail the other day  boy sure is
                   nice now I have to have it taped. That goes
                   in bottom screw that is there, then you have it
                   taped between the 2 screws that are there? Who
                   did yours, and how much?          
    
    Thanks 
    Mike G.

    
    Some updated information on VT's 1992 muzzleloading season.  I read in
    the paper this past weekend that 7000+ hunters properly filled out
    applications for 9000+ antlerless permits.  Yes, that means if you
    filled your application out properly you will be getting a permit!!!
    
    Only 3 zones had applications exceed the number of permits for that 
    area, they were zones - A,B,C.  Now if you weren't drawn in your DMU
    you will be given a permit for the closest DMU with excess permits
    available (a nice deal I think).
    
    I remember reading that 340 (?) non-resident permits will be handed
    out, that seems really low...but maybe they just didn't have the
    interest from non-residents.  
    
    Boy I would love to take a deer with my smokepole...
    
    Kevin

      Someone raised a question this morning at break.  If (or should
    I say when) you get your muzzle-loader permit, does that now mean
    you can get 4 deer this year??  Or is it still a 3 deer max, no
    matter how you take them??
    
    -Ron-

    
    re .58
    
    The annual limit is 3.
    
    Kevin

    Ron, I read an article in one of the outdoor mags that stated that the
    limit this year is 3 deer of which only two could be does.  Sounds to
    me that if you take 2 deer with antlers less than 3" during the archery
    season then your muzzle loading permit is void.  Could this be the
    reason that the permits will not be mailed out until the middle of
    November??

    Kevin, thanks.  I thought that was the case, but wasn't sure.
    
      However, Joe brings up a valid point.  Filling both archery
    tags with Doe would make you ML permit void.  I suppose that
    you are going for a buck now with your second archery tag, Kevin.
    Right??  Hard to pass up a nice doe with the bow though....
    
    -Ron-

I have some questions for those who have experience hunting with muzzle
loaders.  I intend to apply for a muzzle loader deer permit this year,and 
have a lot to learn about this aspect of the sport.  I have had recent
conversations with guys who have a lot more experience at this than
I do, and have been a little surprised at what they have told me.

My primary question has to do with bullet types and rate of twist of
the barrel.  It seems to be pretty much fact that slower twists favor
the round ball, whereas faster twists favor the conicals.  By slower
twist, I'm thinking of something in the range of 1 in 66", and
faster twist would be like 1 in 24".  Intermediate twists such as
1 in 48" are supposed to handle both well.

I currently own a 50 caliber with a 1 in 66" twist, so I figure that I'm
pretty much confined to the round ball.  Until recently, I figured that
the conicals were a superior hunting round.  They certainly have better
aerodynamics than a round ball, and it seems reasonable that their
shape would be better for clean kills.  What I am hearing, though, is
just the opposite.  The claim is that round ball is far superior to the
conicals for hunting, both in terms of accuracy and ability to make
clean kills.  Supposedly, the round ball does a much better job of
flattening out and making a big wound than does this conical.  This
seems reasonable, but I wonder about penetrating heavy bone in an
animal as large as an elk.

Does this sound right?  What do others use?

My second question has to do with accuracy.  I am being told that the
primary factor in accuracy is the patch thickness.  What do you think
of this?

FWIW, I do plan to experiment a lot on my own to get my best results before
I go to the field, but it's nice to have a reasonable place to start.

Jerry

    Jerry,
    
    I shoot a round ball from my 50cal flintlock.  I have taken 5 bucks and
    1 doe in the last 6 years?  I think whoever told you that roundballs
    have more knockdown is wrong.  All of the deer that I shot were hit
    through the chest and only 1 fell on the spot.  The others ran from
    60-125 yards.  Of course I'm not the "know it all" on the stuff, so 
    does anyone else have any answers?
    
    Wess