Conference vmsnet::hunting$note:hunting

         Find ducks with clay birds on their backs!!

    But Seriously....
    
    How about some details:
    
    1. Kind of gun and choke
    2. Kind of shells
    3. Kind of ducks you were shooting at
    4. Approximate range?
    
    As you found out.... NEVER shoot up all your shells before you get back
    to the car.  It's the one sure way I know to attract birds!

    
    gun...Mossberg pump w/modified choke
    shells..winchester super X magnums after they were gone..remington
            nitro mags 4 shot on both shells
    ducks..hell if i know..its dusk..they're dark and fast...man these
           things cover some airspace in a very quick amount of time!
    
    we spot them about 400 yards out coming over the top of the tree
    line (very easy to see) and in about 6 seconds they're on top of us..
    range...from too far out to within 30 yards..majority of them being
    in the 30 to 40 yard range..and all coming right down the middle of 
    the pong sometimes fading to the right..we're right between the middle
    and the shore..they mostly go right over head or to our right..and most
    of them don't ever see us..when they do you can see them veer off of
    they're course..
    
    
    

    It's simple in theory, but tough to do.
    
    I'ed try a full choke to start. Better patterns further out. Make sure
    you lead them enough, aim a little more in front of them each time.
    Until you get hits. They do cover a lot of air space fast and you have
    to get them to fly into your shot. Steel shot range is not as good as lead,
    but we have to do, what we have to do. So only take the close shots.
    And most important aim at one target. You'ed be suprized how many
    people think they are aiming at one duck but it's the flock their just
    pointing the gun at and blasting air.
    
    If you've ever seen time lapsed photos of shot going out from a
    shotgun. You would say there is no way anyone should miss. But we do!
    
    Don
    

>>                      <<< Note 814.3 by JUPITR::OTENTI >>>
>>                         -< details...here they are.. >-

>>    ducks..hell if i know..its dusk..they're dark and fast...man these
>>           things cover some airspace in a very quick amount of time!
    
Am I interpreting this to mean that you didn't (or couldn't) identify
the species (or sex) of duck at which you were shooting?  If so,
perhaps you had better study up on this.  Shooting too many of the
wrong kind can get you in a heap of trouble.    
    
I'm not a duck hunter, but I do know that there is some kind of point
system which sets a point limit and associates a certain number of
points to a certain type/sex of duck.  I'm not meaning to get on your
case here, but if you're shooting at ducks which you can't identify,
it's just as well that you did miss.  It might have saved you a lot of
grief, later.  Perhaps some of the duck hunters in this file would like
to comment on this.

Jerry

    Re: .0 & .3
    
    Based only on my experience.....
    
    Seems to me you just need to shift your position a little (if you can). 
    I find that the toughest shots for me when duck hunting are when they
    are coming right at me and zooming directly overhead.  In that flight
    pattern, the lead and speed is changing constantly and at a very rapid
    rate the nearer the ducks get to you.  Of course this doesn't even take
    into account that the barrel of your gun "gets in the way" of the ducks
    as they get closer.  It's real tough to judge the lead when you can't
    see the target!
    
    When the ducks are more to the side, you can see your target
    (individual
    duck as opposed to the flock as the previous reply said) and it's a lot
    easier to judge the lead and it also changes at a much slower rate with
    a side-on perspective as opposed to overhead.
    
    Sat. AM I was out with my son and missed on a duck going right
    overhead, but neatly bagged the one later that went broadside to us. 
    After
    waiting a while and calling it quits, we paddled the canoe out to pick
    up the duck and had 4 nice geese go over us.  They were just out of
    range and I think we would have had a chance if we had only held tight
    for just another 5 minutes, but that's hunting.
    
    The other comment about just plain practicing is very valid too.  It
    sounds like you certainly don't have a problem with enough ducks to
    practice on.  Wish I had that problem.  Good luck.
    
    Pete
    

   Jerry

    Im as legal as they get but this duck ID thing is bullshit at times!
I sat on the side of a river with my duck field guide(pamphlet) trying to ID
a floating duck for 10 minutes and still came up with nothing. Either I need 
a new guide, new eyes or this thing came in from Africa or something but try
doing this at 40 yds overhead at 35 mph! I just left him there and do my best 
when they're flying, but it's tough real tough.


  Otenti

    I just picked up the Mossberg 12ga 31/2 AccuMag and it works real well with
 steel. Keep trying and try to find someone who's really experienced to help
 you. I would lead right at their head though. Any chance you want to broadcast 
 this location it sounds great. The geese part kills me. Funny thing happened to
 me yesterday. I've been looking for geese in legal spots and have been
 unsuccessful (my wife thinks It's funny since she seems them all over) yester-
 day were driving around for nothing and I damn near ran a Canada goose over
 coming around a bend in the road. 

    I switched from a full to a modified choke this year for steel shot,
    and seem to be doing quite a bit better.  One other major adjustment
    that has helped is increasing the size of shot.  
    
    I wouldn't even consider 4 for anything bigger than teal or maybe
    bluebills.  Try using 1's with your modified choke, and I'll bet it
    helps - steel just doesn't have the kick lead does.  Also, remember
    that compared to lead, steel is faster close in (smaller leads) but
    slows down quicker, and requires BIGGER leads at long-shots.
    
    Don't give up.  I was out after geese Sat. and we were buzzed by a pair
    of woodducks; I ended up dropping one of them at 45 yards with a load
    of BB's - so it can be done, even by us average hunters.
    
    If you want to reach out and touch someone, use bigger shot sizes.
    
    John C
    
    
    P.S. While ducks are hard to ID at times, you can learn from scouting
    out an area ahead of time what kind of ducks are there.  Also, unique
    characteristics such as flight patterns, calls, etc. work better than
    color IDs.  Good thing you didn't drop a Canvasback - the old "didn't
    know what it was" goes over like a lead balloon in court!  

    
    Re: .4   Full choke and steel shot?  Anybody actually try this yet.
    	     Last I knew it was being discouraged.  I shot a round of
    	     steel through my full choke tube on my mossberg and I had
    	     all I could do to get the damn thing out after.
    
    Also, I'd like to second the vote on identifying the duck before
    shooting it.  Sounds like it might be a teal or something (sort of
    like an F16 with the afterburners on!!) but some ducks are forbidden
    to be hunted, by law.  Don't want to get caught with one on your 
    person whilst leaving the swamp.  Good way to lose your license, gun,
    etc.....
    
    If you find out that the ducks are legal, your modified choke may be
    ok.  I shoot an IC choke with some success.  Keep trying, and increase
    your lead on the birds.  You should find something that works after a
    while.  
    
    Good luck,
    
    Dave

    I would second the suggestion for larger shot size in steel.  I've had
    good luck with #2's.  
    
    My guess from you description is that it is very late in the day, and
    the ducks are farther away than you realize.  It is very tough to
    judge distance where you don't have something to judge against.  I
    always have trouble on an open marsh where it's flat as a board, or
    looking straight up.  Also if they are near the end of the effective
    range and flying full speed straight over you, that is a very tough
    shot in anybody's book.
    
    RE: .7 I would suggest getting a different duck id chart.  Years ago
    I too sat in the marsh with a dead duck in one hand and the chart in
    the other and had no idea what I had.  It turned out the id chart for
    that particular species was not real clear.
    
    By the way, are you sure your real name isn't Micheal Virgil??  It
    seems he has a similar problem with ducks.  :-)
    
    mark,
    

re .9, 

Are you sure you were using the right size shell ? I have an old
JC Higgins 12 ga pump, chambered for 2 3/4 in. shells. It's a full
choke, and It worked fine on Saturday. I don't think it would do so
hot with the 3 or 3.5 in. shells also available. I also think they
would have plastered the box with warnings if it were the slightest
bit dangerous, just to protect themselves from lawsuits. On the positive
side Mr. Ouellette and I shot our first ducks Saturday. We're both
new to duckhunting this year. It was a great first experince. We rounded
the bend of a river in the boat and Larry spotted two Mallard hens. We
raised our guns, but had time to talk over the situation. I whispered
"are you sure they're mallards?". Larry said "yup, wait until we drift
closer". A moment later they took off in a hurry. I pulled the trigger
and they both fell, hmmmm funny because I only aimed at the one on the right.
 Me "Larry, you shoot????". Larry says "Did you???". We had both fired at the
exact same moment, and both dropped the first ducks we ever had the chance to
fire at. It was a great experience. On the negative side the steel doesn't
seem to penetrate well. I was using number two, and had to pump another round
into the bird after it was down. Same with Larry. After cleaning it, it looked
like the shot was leaving more like a bruise, but not entering the inner cavity.
I didn't find any shot at all actually still in the bird. Also, does anyone
have any recomendations on a faster way to clean these things. There's a
million little feathers that took for ever to remove from the skin.

On the id issue, later on we spotted two more in the water that we couldn't
figure out what kind they were. We pulled ashore, and crept up, chart in
hand. Boy, was it tough to tell. We passed on these two, and used the
experience to see how close we could get, and to practice the duck call.
Lots of fun either way! A new chart is definitley in order....but when
they're flying fast it must be really hard...I never realized that there's
about fifty types of ducks, and the males and females all have different
markings....

Marty

    As a side note, it is illegal to hunt from a from a boat moving as a
    result of mechanical power in NH.  
    
    Mark.

    Re. .11
    On cleaning ducks, here's what I did Saturday and it's the quickest way
    I've ever found.  Take the duck before removing the innards and pluck
    away
    all of the large feathers.  You can remove the wings at the "elbow." 
    You can remove the feet now too or later.  So now you are holding the
    duck by it's head and it's body is covered by all the down.  It takes
    about 5 minutes to do what I just described, maybe less.  In a large
    pot, heat water warm enough to melt regular household parafin.  One
    piece of parafin (about 3"W X 5"L X 3/4" thick) is plenty for one or
    two ducks.  There should be enough water in the pot so you can immerse
    the duck completely through the floating parafin into the water, except
    for the head that you hold in your hand.  Immerse the duck.  Pull it
    right back out and allow a minute or so for the parafin to harden. 
    Repeat the process 3 or four times so you build up a layer of wax on
    the bird.  (The water doesn't need to be too hot, just enough to melt
    the wax.)  If it's cold outside, just put the bird aside long enough
    for the wax to get brittle.  If it's warm, then set in in the
    refrigerator for a few minutes.  Then just peel away the hardened wax
    like you were peeling a hard boiled egg.  All the down comes off with
    the wax and the duck is plucked completely clean.  Proceed to clean the
    duck in the normal manner.  This manner of removing the feathers is the
    easiest I've ever found, except one.  If you are going to use the meat
    in a fricasse (sp?) or stew or anyway other than roasting the duck
    whole, the easiest way is to skin the bird.  All the feathers and
    nearly all of the fat comes off with the skin.  Just takes a knife and
    a pair of pliers to pull at the skin.
    
    By the way, this past weekend was my first experience with steel shot
    (haven't been duck hunting in about 5 years).  Steel is a bummer, but
    I'll get used to it.
    
    Pete
    

Re: 12 We were drifting, drifting and drifting with the current. 

Actually we had a modified bass boat with twin Merc 150's and four twelve gauge
semi's rigged on outrigger post tied to a control panel on the dash. Then we run
down river as fast as possible for the surprise element and blast off randomly 
till were out of shells. There's no law against using more than one gun is 
there?

    Hi Larry.  I was just pointing out the regs as an FYI for those who may
    not be familiar with the boat laws in NH.
    
    Mark.

    
    
    went out again last night...it wasn't very clear and didn't get 
    to see many of the ducks till they were >RIGHT THERE< and by that
    time they're already gone. did notice that most of them were out
    of range though..seemed to be going out past the tree line.
    but..between the both of us we still managed to get out about 20ish
    or so shots (#2 magnums) and they all still flew over head laughing..
    police came down again...three times now out of four nights...guess all
    the preppies don't like to hear gunshots in their town!...the guy i'm
    with seems to think they're teals by the size of them and the speed 
    they're flying....and yes, they're still zooooming by at top speed
    but i did notice that the lead bird does wear goggles so that his
    eyes don't water from the vast amounts of wind being blown into them
    from the excessive speed they're all going!
    
    still got a few more days to try!
    
    al

    As a practice, you might try Sporting Clays. Trap is okay to tune
    up but I seem to have better luck if I do a round of Sporting Clays
    before I go after duck. I didn't make the SC this year and my 
    shooting showed it. The ducks you're having trouble with are
    probably the ones that warmed up on me. 
    BTW, I too have seen them wear goggles and as a rule of thumb, if
    I spot an oxygen mask, I figure they're a tad out of range :^)
    
    Good Luck and keep trying.

    
    re .11
    
    Marty,
    
    Thought I'd comment on the steel shot penetration issue.  Steel shot
    has incredible penetration characteristics.  They are much superior to
    lead...but I also believe this is one of the downfalls of steel shot.
    
    Let me explain.
    
    Steel shot is very hard.  When it hits the bird it does not deform like
    a lead pellet would, it stays round...it will ALWAYS stay round. 
    Therefore it will cut right through the bird, the bruises you saw were
    the exit holes from the pellets that probably entered the birds
    backside...I am assuming the birds were trying to get away from you.
    There will be a lot of bleeding.  There will be few if any pellets left
    in the bird.  This is one reason steel shot does NOT hit as hard as
    lead.  I've seen birds hit with as many as 15 pellets try to get away.
    There is minimal energy transfer, which is what kills these birds.
    
    As an example; I hit a hen woodie at about 40 yds with 2 3/4" #4's this
    season.  The bird had landed, it jumped and I shot...it went down, the
    dog got on it quick as it tried to get in the thick weeds...I figured I
    didn't hit it very hard.  Upon examing the bird I counted at least 15
    pellet holes in the bird...they went straight through the bird at 40
    yds!!!!
    
    Steel shot has too much penetration.
    
    Kevin

    Thanks for the explanation Kevin. We're going to give it another
    try Saturday.
    
    Marty