Conference vicki::boats

    see also note 61.* for Formula advice

    I GUESS IF IT WAS ME I WOULD FIRST TELL MYSELF HOW MUCH I COULD SPEND
    WHEN YOUR TALKING FORMULA YOUR TALKING BIG BUCKS..65-75,000.
    (NEW) FOR A 27 FT.BUT IN THAT SAME QUALITY RANGE BUT A LITTLE 
    CHEAPER (NOT MUCH)YOU CAN LOOK AT DONZI,CHECKMATE,FOUNTAIN,
    IF YOU CAN FIND A GOOD USED DEAL OUT THERE GO FOR IT, YOU WOULD
    BE SUPRIZED ON WHAT YOU CAN GET A BOAT OF THIS QUALITY FOR 
    JUST A COUPLE OF YEARS OLD. BUT IT WILL STILL COST SOME BIG
    BUCKS.AND LIKE ANY OTHER BOAT LOOK FOR THE WAY IT BE TREATED
    MOTOR UPKEEP, CRACKS IN THE HULL,INTERIOR,ITS PRETTY EASY TO
    TELL HOW THE BOAT HAS BEEN TREATED. AND IF YOUR NOT SURE JUST
    WHAT TO LOOK FOR IF YOUR CONSIDERING A USED BOAT GO TO LOCAL
    DEALER OR SOMEBODY WHO UP ON THERE BOATS AND LET THEM ASK
    SOME QUESTIONS.. LETS US KNOW WHAT YOU DECIDE.......

    
    Thanks for your reply.  You're right about the big bucks, the
    Formula's list was 87K.  They did have a used Formula for 55K with
    50 hours on it, sounded like a fair price, but wanted some more
    input on the quality of different boats.  I'll be sure to check
    out the Donzi, Fountain, and Checkmate.  I was familiar with the
    Checkmate as my sister has one.  I'm pretty sure the hull is not
    deep enough for what I would like.  I would like something that
    I could spend the weekends on comfortably.
    
    Thanks,
    Sue

    SUE.
    I REALIZE THE SITUATION YOU ARE IN SINCE I AGONIZED OVER THE SAME
    DECISION MANY YEARS AGO. I WANTED A PERFORMANCE BOAT ON LAKE
    WINNY THAT WE COULD SPEND WEEKENDS ON . AFTER LOOKING FOR A BOAT
    FOR TWO YEARS, WE FINALLY BOUGHT A USED 242LS FORMULA FROM
    LAKEPORT LANDING MARINA. IN OUR OPINION, IT POSSESSES THE BEST
    QUALITY IN TERMS OF CONSTRUCTION, RIDE, HANDLING,LOOKS,CABIN
    AND COCKPIT.
    THIS YEAR WE TRADED UP TO A USED 272SR1 FORMULA WITH TWIN
    350 MAGNUMS. WE GAINED MANY ADVANTAGES OVER THE 242LS SUCH
    AS A LARGER CABIN, BOLSTER SEATS, MOLDED SWIM PLATFORM,
    AND CLEARLY A BETTER RIDING BOAT.
    WE COMPARED THE FORMULA TO THE CHECKMATE, DONZI, FOUNTAIN,
    AND WELLCRAFT AND, IN OUR OPINION, THE FORMULA WAS CLEARLY
    THE BETTER CONSTRUCTED AND APPOINTED BOAT.
    YES, THEY ARE PRICEY LIKE MOST PERFORMANCE BOATS, HOWEVER
    IF YOU KEEP THE BOAT WELL MAINTAINED, THEY SEEM TO 
    DEPRECIATE FAR LESS THAN OTHER BOATS IN THEIR CLASS.
    WE LOVE OURS, BUT THEY ARE NOT FOR EVERYBODY.

    ONE OF THE BEST MAGAZINE ON THE MARKET IS POWERBOAT THEY GIVE YOU ALL
    THE  INFO YOU WOULD NEED ON THESE BOATS AND MORE I HAVE THE APRIL ISSUE
    RIGHT HERE IN FRONT OF ME AND IT A SPECIAL ISSUE ON HIGH PROFORMANCE
    BOATS (ABOUT 15 MODELS)IT STARTS FROM THE WATER TESTS RIGHT DOWN
    TO INTERIOR'S IT GIVE'S EVERYTHING YOU WOULD NEED TO KNOW.
               
        

    	re .0-.5
    
    	I'm in class all this week, but I'll add my 2 cents just the
    same... As was mentioned Powerboat Magazine is a good place to get some
    idea of the different performance boats available in your size and
    price range. If price/performance/resale value is what your looking
    for, then take a look at the Baja Sport 250 - Powerboat Magazine's boat
    of the year... I love Formula's , but in my opinion, for the money,
    Baja is tough to beat in the >22-25' range.
    
    	Also if you like Formula you might want to take a look at Mirage.
    They build a VERY nice high performance boat for the money. Their
    interior looks very much like Formula at a fraction of the price. They
    have a new line coming out that will knock your socks off...
    
    	Good Luck
    							-mike-

    
    Having owned a few boats around that lenght and style, let's see
    if I can help clarify some things.
    
    Formula is probably one the best 'production' boats around. They
    ride very well, are handsome, have the best interiors, etc. To rival
    Formula for quality are Donzi and Cobalt's Condurre series.
    Obviously, you get what you pay for. Having lived at Lakeport on
    a Formula 272 for a season, I can tell you that the Formula was
    a great 60 MPH 'camper'.
    
    Boats that you should also consider are Wellcraft (Scarabs) and
    Webbcraft's Velota...both not bad boats, both not quite up to 
    Formula/Donzi/Cobalt for overall fit and finish.
    
    'Above' the production boats are the 'custom' builders like Hustler,
    Fountain, Apache, Aronow, Cougar, Sutphen, etc. These people build
    race quality boats (hull and deck laminated together, laminated
    bottoms, foam stringers, 3-4 inch transoms, etc.) This is all obviously
    big dollars, but worth it for the hyper-go-fast crowd. 
    
    Other names to consider (and sometimes avoid) are Concord (NG),
    Chapparal (great quality/value), Nordic (great quality/vlaue), 
    Chris-Craft (NG), Sea Rays Pachanga (so-so). 
    
    A prime consideration is selecting a boat (new/used) that has a
    local dealer...unless you want to do most of the work youself or
    go to an independent shop (Winni has some). 
             
    Choosing is the most fun and helps make the winter fly by and gives
    you new purpose in going to all the boat shows both here in New
    England and Florida. 
    
                                                           
    

    I think that this note is a good example of the need to be specific
    about requirements and price range right up front. "the best boat
    for my money" is awfully hard to respond to, because it is your
    needs and your money.
    
    .0 obviously brought up Formula, an expensive boat, but value for
    the dollar had me thinking of many other boats, of far less cost
    and stature - but were 27' foot performance boats. Like the Stingray
    27' 270 SS model.
    
    Later note makes it plain Sue was seeking more than the Stingray,
    and even wanted a high degree of comfort. So now the question, which
    is more important performance or comfort?
    
    Remembering I have yet to learn the pecking order of all boats, and
    don't mean to insult anyone's sensibilities I offer a suggestion that
    probably leans more to comfort than maximum performance (like Fountain
    for example) but isn't a cruiser either: Cruisers Incorportated Rogue
    3000. It's center line length is 27'4" (32'11" including pulpit and
    built in swim platform), beam 10', approx weight 7,900 pounds. Engines:
    twin 260, 270, or 33o MerCruisers, or twin Volvo 275 duoprops. 
    
    It's hull is unique to the Rogue model, it isn't shared with any of the
    family cruiser models. It's a sporty design that offers good space
    above and below and seems quality made throughout. I didn't bother to
    ask the price of the on I saw. You know the line, "if you have ask...
     
    john

    
    Thanks everyone for all your replies.  I plan on checking out every
    boat that was listed.  I want to make sure I check out all the boats
    before I make a decision.  Hopefully I can make one by next Spring,
    I have "powerboat fever"!!
    
    The Formula I did check out was at Lakeport Marina.  Is that marina
    reputable? 
    
    Thanks again for all your inputs.  By the way, I did buy a copy
    of Powerboat magazine.  Some of the boats were out of my range
    (i.e cigarette boats, who can afford them???)
    
    Sue
    
    

    Ther are some very interesting views posted here. Let me give you my 2
    cents worth. I raced offshore power boats for several years and worked
    in a marina rigging race boats. Having owned several boats and given
    the experiences I have had I of course have my own views.
    What it boils down to is what you want out of a boat and then based on
    your own analysis determine what is best. The magazines especially
    power boat can give you some good data but not analysis. I don't
    particuarly share some of there views especially in the areas of power
    and drivability. I will steer clear of recommending a particular boat.
    I own a Baja , It is my second. I have owned Formula, Challenger
    (Shadow), and driven Scarab, Fountain and many others . There are very
    few boats I would say don't buy. Name brands and perceived leading edge
    companies are nice but they are expensive and for the most part
    overrated. Then there are companies that take harry homeowner hulls and
    try to sell tham as sport boats by making them look nice. You know the
    expression if it don't go chrome it. 
    It is a huge complex formula (no pun here) work it, spend alot of time
    with it and the answer for you will be apparent. I'm very happy with my
    decision and next time I buy a boat I'll do it the same way.
    
     Bill
        

    BTW - had the wrong model number for the Stingray, it is a SVC 275.
    It says Maxim 275 XL on the boat. Power ranges from a single 7.4
    litre, 330 Hp to twin 454 Magnums at 368 Hp each! It isn't meant
    to compete with $75,000 boats, but it ain't no slouch either.
    
    john

    
    >> (i.e cigarette boats, who can afford them???)
    
    Answer: President Bush :-)
    
    Jon

    
    
    Just another thought.  How is waterskiing behind all these performance
    boats?  Do I need to buy a boat with a shallow hull?
    
    Sue

    
    re: Sue
    
    	Waterskiing behind anything larger than 20 feet is ok just
    for a ski ride around the lake, but forget any serious skiing
    because the wake will be much too large.
    
    Rick

    You can ski behind a real performance boat but it is not fun unless you
    are into tourcher. Between the smell of the fumes (raw unburnt gas
    because you cant run it up top, the rooster tail(like skiing into a
    fire hose, and the speed (I can't stay on plane under about  36 MPH) ,
    not to mention the turbulence in the water and the fact that you would
    need a ski rope about 150 ft long  and the  poor turning radius and the
    lousie hole shot(all cavitation no torqe. ) Have I drawn the picture
    well enough? Ther are degrees of performance boating. I for one had a
    friend ski behind my boat once because he wanted to try it. He said it
    was something you should try once and only once he doesn't want to be a
    speed skier and my boat really wasn't rigged for this anyway.
    
       Bill
    
     Isn't thisd what they make Natiques for anyway. You don't see many of
    them blowing around in 6 foot stuff at 80!
    

    Re. .7,
    
    Please help me understand. You said that the Wellcraft and
    Webbcraft weren't up to the standards set by Formula/Donzi/Cobalt for
    fit and finish. Are the Formula/Donzi/Cobalt more expensive boats?  If
    so than they should be built better, and it is nice to know that they
    are if you can afford to buy one. If not, than it is nice to know that
    for the same money you'd pay for Wellcraft that you can get even better
    quality.
    
    You gave the Sea Ray Pachanga a so-so rating, why is that? I am
    interested in knowing if it is lacking in performance, layout, quality,
    size, or what. 
    
    I am curious as to whether these are cases of my BMW 325 not measuring
    up to your Mercedes 560 SLC, or whether it a case of different strokes
    for different folks as in the on going Porsche/Corvette debates.
    
    john

    SUE,
    ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS TO CONSIDER IS THE DEALER/MARINA
    IF YOU INTEND TO KEEP YOUR BOAT ON LAKE WINNI,THINK ABOUT BUYING
    A BOAT FROM A DEALER ON THE LAKE THAT ALSO HAS AN AVAILABLE SLIP
    FOR YOU TO RENT AND PROVIDES WINTERIZING AND WINTER STORAGE.
    IN MY OPINION, LAKEPORT LANDING IS A GOOD MARINA THAT PROVIDES
    GOOD SERVICE, REASONABLY PRICED SLIPS,AND OF COURSE SELLS FORMULAS
    BE CAREFUL TAKING ADVICE FROM OTHERS WHO ARE NOT INTO PERFORMANCE
    BOATS AND GIVE ADVICE FROM READING BOATING MAGAZINES. ONE WAY TO
    UNDERSTAND THIS TYPE OF BOAT IS ASSOCIATING YOURSELF BOAT OWNERS
    INVOLVED WITH THEM FOR FACTUAL/HANDS ON INFO. MANY BOATS HAVE
    THE SAME MOTORS BUT ARE NOT PERFORMANCE BOATS. REMEMBER, IN
    MOST CASES YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR !

    Must you SCREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have dealt with Lakeport Landing in one way or another for about 10 years
(ever since it was bought by the current owner, and a LOT smaller than they are
today). I have never bought a boat there, but I have had various kinds of
work done, stored the boat in the winter, and for a time rented a slip. I have
not had a bad experience with them.

Dave

    
    Work firedrills are over (for now) so I can back to the important
    issues of boats and marinas.
    
    I mentioned some tiers in an earlier note and have been asked how
    I came to those personal/private opinions.
    
    I own a custom race boat now and do (or participate in) most of my
    own work. I even worked the hull and drive layout/design with the 
    builder. Prior to this I owned several performance sportboats and
    did most of the work myself on those as well.
    
    MY 'quality' tiers were based on having worked on the motors/drives
    electrical systems, windshields, fuel systems, transmissions, throttle
    assemblies, and gelcoat from lots of boat mfrs. Understanding that
    boat building is mostly assembling relatively standard parts into
    a 'boat' and understanding what the builders put in and how they
    did it...I developed the tiers. 
    
    All stainless hardware through bolted with stainless backing plates in 
    the 'glass' impresses me. Screwed and glued bonding of hull deck
    does to. Neat and color-coded wire bundles; high quality electrical
    systems; non-binding cable linkages; high strength windshield
    assemblies; pressure tested fuel tanks; easy access to routine
    maintenance items (god bless remote mount oil filters and ez
    drains); no cloth pattern visible in the gelcoat; quality and fit
    of deck hatches, and portholes; bilge finish; thickness of and
    waterproofing of transom materials....all the 'little' things that
    go into making a successful boat. Those are all things I crawl aroud
    looking for when near boats.
    
    The production guys that have impressed me are (again) Formula,
    Cobalt, and Donzi - quality and assembly of components. And yes,
    you do pay a premium (esp if new). 
    
    I bought a Formula and sold it only to build a custom/radical race
    boat. Mfrs that impress as offering 'value', i.e., taking some very
    reasonable compromises to hit a price point are Baja and Chapparal.
    Wellcraft drives me nuts because of their beautiful designs with
    'off' production/assembly.
    
    Other production manufacturers had their own 'uh-oh' (or several) 
    somewhere that cause me to put them in a tiers as well.
                                                          
    What it comes down to is: pick your compromise and match it to the
    builder that shares your 'bias'. 
    
    Lakeport Landing - not a bad place to do business. They take care
    of you (although they do get backed up a little on service this
    time of year). 
                                     
     

    Re .20 I'd be interested in hearing What compromises you feel some of
    these companies make. Also please qualify your statements ie. real
    world benchmark. I find it difficult to understand how you can put
    chapparal and baja in the same league especially considering your
    experience in boat building and rigging in terms of your Hustler. You
    can custom rig anything. I did it with my boat just as you did with
    yours. If you buy production line that is what you want. If you opt for
    custom rigging you can build anything as Fiore demonstrates on the
    Hustler.
    
       Bill