Conference vicki::boats

		     < The Price of Boatin' Goin Up>


	Don't feel like RI is the only place dock prices have increased at
a ridiculous pace!!!  I dock my boat in the Merrimack River in Newburyport, MA.
Last season I paid $49.00/ft - the same dock space this season cost me $70/ft.
It isn't just my marina - it was a conspiracy!!  Every marina increased their
price/foot in just about the same manner....That's a 43% increase in just one
season without any additional or improved service....

	I also think it's peaked at least in my area.  With a tighten economy
and people having a few less $$$, the new 150 slip marina that opened just this
season and with plans for another new marina next year - I think the prices
will drop next year.  I've had a boat in the Merrimack for 12 years and this
is the first season my marina has had so many open slips.  The rule has been
if you didn't get your slip paid in full before April - you didn't get a slip.
....not any more....

	Another complaint is the cost of gas - what the going rate for a gallon
of gas at the dock...In Newburyport is up to a $1.42 and that's for 87 octane
regular if you're lucky...What are other's paying for gas???

Regards,
Dave "Harpoonist"

    I did note in last Sunday's Providence paper, Masthead Marina
    on Greenwich Bay is offering 25' slips at a discounted price.
    
    

    Hampton Harbor in NH has a new gas dock. Prices are very good, reg.
    unleaded $1.19. Hours are 6:00 am - 6:00 pm. Cash and maybe bank
    card. The place is located at the state pier to the right of the
    bridge. If someone hasn't been into Hampton Harbor, make sure you
    keep to the right after passing under the bridge. Don't pass in
    back of the green/red/black can. There is a series of rocks that
    just show at low tide.

> Another complaint is the cost of gas - what the going rate for a gallon
> of gas at the dock...In Newburyport is up to a $1.42 and that's for 87 octane
> regular if you're lucky...What are other's paying for gas???
 
Parker River at bridge 1A (now Jimmy's Marine)........$ 1.509
   
Ipswich Bay Yacht Club (I've been told.....)..........$ 1.529
    
Lobster Cove (Annisquam River)........................$ 1.55
    
Gas dock in Annisquam closest to 
   the cut bridge (Glouster Harbor)...................$ 1.429
    
Danversport Yacht Club................................$ 1.369
    (I believe I saw this price ~1 month ago)
    
I paid $ 1.60/Gal in Niantic Conn. back in April !    

    I'm on a mooring and carry my gas in 6 gallon can. I pay $1.05 here
    in Nashua.
    
    But then I have a sail boat and only use about 15 gallons a season
    %^).
    
    Paul

    Re 5.
    
    I also moor in cape Porpoise Maine for $500 for the season. This
    is for my 30 foot boat.
    
    I use to have a slip in Danversport and a mooring at City Boat in
    Newburyport. 
    
    It is a whole lot less expensive when you gp north and get into
    a working harbor.
    
    Paul

    what would you rather see, 
    		
    		$70/ft and $1.50/gal
    		
    			or
    
    		condominiums where your marina used to be
    

    $1.34 at danversport yacht club
    $1.39 at port marine beverly
    $1.37 at marina bay quincy 
    
    I pay $55/foot at port marine in danvers, goes up to $90./foot down
    in berverly.
    
    Bruce

    Mooring in South Bristol, Maine (a working harbor?) is $500 for
    the season - up from $300 last year!!
    
    Gas in Boothbay Harbor - $1.55.
    
    I've heard it's better up North!

    Having my boat on a mooring I can not add to the conversation on
    slips (except to say that there must be a reason I have a mooring
    rather than a slip - $$$$$), but I can tell you that gas at Ryder's
    Cove in Pleasant Bay (Cape Cod) is $1.50/gallon. I haven't found
    any other sources of fuel in the area yet - the pumps in Chatham
    Harbor are reserved for commercial boats.
    
    john

    
    
       My boat is 5.5 miles from my house on the Parker River where 
       a Town mooring permit costs me $20./year. I own the mushroom.

    

    There's no reason for slip prices being so high, the fool's who
    jack these prices up are going to be left talking to themselves.
    Then we'll see who's gonna pay the bills. I believe they 
    are entitled to a profit, and a reasonable one, but they think
    we're all stupid, and will pay any amount for a slip. Mine has
    gone up 120% in the last 2 seaons. If i were in their shoes
    i'd be intersested in keeping the customers i have, rather than
    trying to rape them. Things arn't that great, and their in the luxury
    business. On the gas issue, the fuel dock upstream from me, went
    up to $1.50, (they were the least expensive around previously)
    i asked the guy who runs it, why, "they just arbitrarily sp? 
    decided to do it. They pay around $.80-.85 per gallon. Now is that
    price gouging or what. You can imagine what i told him, and i don't
    mix my words. I will not return, and from what he said, a truck
    load of others have said the same thing. They'll come down,
    their competition is at $1.28 and $1.32 a gal. for the premium 
    unleaded. Their way out of line on dockspace and fuel, the economy
    does not fall in line with what they have in mind, seems we've 
    been here before with these fools, and they still havn't learned
    their lesson. BUT THEY WILL.
    
    JIM.
    
    
    

    Bravo!
    
    Couldn't have said it better.
    
    _mb

    re: .12 I agree...Wonder who'll be around to bail THEM out!
    
> ....their competition is at $1.28 and $1.32 a gal. for the premium unleaded.
    
    Wow. Premium Unleaded! All the docks I've been at have nothing but
    Regular Unleaded (~87 octane). I see more & more people filling
    their dinghys with 6 gal. jerry cans with their favorite gas just
    to avoid paying $1.50/gal at the dock located within a stones throw
    of their mooring. No kidding. I could hit the dock with a stone. 
    
    Its true these marinas need to make their mony, when they can, if
    they're a seasonal business But to charge such outrageous gas prices!!!
    Perhaps the marinas need to make the mony at the pumps to compensate
    for the lack of sales on boats they overprice and the lack of people 
    requesting service because their lack of providing QUALITY service.
    But,....I was aware, and was warned prior to purchase of my vessel
    that - you got a boat..you're going to pay. I believe any hobby
    or activity has its associated costs to operate/maintenence etc.
    but I also believe that because of the short season here in the
    East, that boaters are.. at times taken advantage of.
    
        When will it all stop. (BTW:vessel = 20' Grady White)
    
    /MArk
    

    I a partial factor why gas prices are so high is, that insurance
    for the gas docks are high do to risk of water pollution/contamination
    from a leaking tank. I here the EPA is always checking these gas
    docks for leaky tanks.
                  
                                             Jeff

    
    	Conversation on a Shared Ownership marina has been moved
    to note #461.
    
    Rick

    I was at Block Island over Memorial Day weekend. They were charging
    $1.76 a gallon. So fill up before you visit. Also I can see a profit
    margin...but 100% ! Just how high can their insurance be? I notice
    several marinas have their tanks high and dry in a safe location,
    not underground and have the lines run to the docks. Not only that
    but between slip prices and fuel prices I wouldn't be surprised
    to see a few marina's go under if this keeps up. 

    How many of us who have boats (both power and sail) would be willing
    to boycott ALL MARINAS for a complete season.
    
    Yes, we would loose the enjoyment of using our boats, but we sure
    would be sending a message to the Marina Operators about what we
    think of their unfair practice.
    
    I for one would be willing to do all I could to reduce the totally
    unacceptable pricing practices.
    
    Paul

    In addition to boycotting slip rental, how 'bout boycotting having
    any service done at Marinas, too! I have had my boat winterized
    by the dealer (who also operates a Marina) and recently had a bad
    experience due to incompetent service. The owner denied any
    responsibility for what happened. Just like outrageous prices for
    slip rentals and fuel, $45.00/hr for questionable service is also
    worth boycotting.
    
    Jon

    The last few replies about boycotts have set me to thinking.
    
    Boycotts do work, especially if there really is over pricing.
    I have no idea wether or not ther is.  I don't boat, I just read
    out of curiosity and possible future interest.  The one cost that
    marinas, and all businessmen(women) have to consider is the value
    of their real estate if it were used for another purpose.  Read
    waterfront condos in this case.
    
    A aquaintance of mine used to own an unpaved airport.  He was always under
    pressure to sell the sell the land for other "more finacially
    reasonable" purposes.  He resisted for years, but eventually he
    reached the point where he could not raise his prices enough to
    justify keeping the land for that purpose.  To keep the land as
    an airport would be a lousy business  decision, even though it was
    what he wanted in his heart.  The pressures of others "in this case
    wife and family" forced a business decision and the airport is now
    a condo.
    
    This is probabaly the same type of pressure marinas have that is
    pressuring the price increases.  If for any reason the cost of keeping
    the marina operating is no longer acceptable to the users, and some
    other service is willing to spend the cash.  Goodby marina, hello
    condo or whatever.
    
    So if you boycott, recognize the risk.  If they are price gouging
    you might win; but if they are just keeping the price competitve
    with other uses, you might lose everything.
    
    It's the way the free market works.  
    
    -Joe

    Excuse me. No one *forces* anyone to make the best economic use of any
    resource. Land included. Taxes may affect the decision, but that is
    about it. Most people are in a particular business because when they
    started it/joined it they thought that it would be a way to make a
    living that they would enjoy, i.e., not a purely economic decision.
    
    Your friend had a price on his heart. That's all. He sold out to the
    developers (with pressure from the family that wanted whatever they
    wanted and sale got it for them). If someone really wants something, it
    doesn't matter what the offer to take it away from them is. 
    
    If a business is making money while meeting expenses, and the owners
    enjoy the business the fact that someone comes along and offers them $1
    million for the land doesn't make a damn bit of difference in the cost
    structure of the business, prices don't have to be raised to reflect
    that offer. Why was your friend raising prices?
    
    This is exactly the kind of thinking that has made this country a less
    enjoyable place. People who are only involved in a venture to make
    money on the assumption that the only return on investment that is
    important is money and that it must me maximized to matter the cost to
    the community and environment. Yuppies and the me generation, save us! 
    
    john
    
    P.S.  A boycott won't work for another reason. There aren't enough
    of "us". There are plenty of people who will make use the of the
    marinas. Also, as the previous noter said, a boycott may force them
    to sell out to those with "more financially reasonable purposes".

    The whole Idea of Boycotting is absurd. If your thinking allong
    those lines, it must mean that you don't enjoy boating enough to
    even bother with it. Get out sell your boat and let someone who
    really likes it take your place. That Will help to lower prices
    at marinas, as it is the basic law of supply & demand. You will
    be helping to lower the demand and prices will come down.
    
    Just think! You will also save those monthly mortgage payments on
    the boat and the insurance & Fuel costs & winterizing & maintaince
    cost, ect.ect.ect....
    
    Land values are one of the major reasons for the high price of marina
    costs (supply & demand again) Everyone wants to be by the water,
    wether it be a boat, cottage or condo and with that much compition
    for a limited comodity; whoever offers the most for it will win.
    
    Just my 2 cents worth!
    
                                Walt
    

    This really might not fit here, but I don't want to write a new
    note just for it. 
    
    For Lake Winnisquam weekend launchers that are accustomed to using
    the ramp at Martel's Bait Shop on Bay Street: The ramp is permanently
    shut down. I heard that it was due to on-going problems with parking
    of rigs that have put in their boats there. Lots of trucks and cars
    and their trailers could be seen across the street from Martel's
    on weekends. This evidently caused great problems with the owner
    of the parking area. 
    
    The bottom line is: your launching area is narrowed-down to either
    Sarge's store or Jay's marina in Winnisquam. I guess I'm just trying
    to save folks the inconvenience of fighting traffic all the way
    into Laconia and then turning around and driving 3 miles back through
    the way they came from. 
    
    And---good luck trying to slide into someplace else---they're all
    maxed-out as well. 
    
    Remember, Jay's Marina is $7 in-$7 out, with no parking available.
    
    Good luck. You're probably better off going someplace else at this
    point. :-(
    
    Mike

     Prices at marina's ( as well as prices for most things) are
     a function of supply, demand, and greed.  As long as there are
     those who place so little value on VALUE that they will pay
     whatever to have "it", those who understand "value" will be priced 
     out of the market, pained by participation,  or just plain refuse to 
     participate in it.

     A good case in point is the new 2 seat sports car that has come
     out from whatever Japenese car company.  Dealers are marking it 
     up as much as $3,000 over the manufacturers list price and are not 
     having any trouble selling them.  
   
     What kind of idiot would willing pay more than full list price for a car?
     I guess there are an abundance of them.  If Sears tried to charge him 
     $100 more than list for a toaster would he  pay that too?  
    
     Its this same mentality applied to boat slips that drives the prices.
     Pleasure boating is booming and there are not enough slips to go
     around. So, if you are not willing to pay because it is not a good value, 
     step aside; the guy behind you doesnt care 'cause its only money. And
     the marina operator will be more than happy to take the money 'cause
     that's his job.

     As I sit here typing I realize that I am about to get seriously on a 
     soapbox, so I'll put on the brakes here.  What follows is what I think 
     is a great article, amusing in a bittersweet way; for me it touches 
     cleanly on some of what is going wrong with society today.    

     I spent a few summers at a boatyard (with a woodpile) in Normandy
     Beach, N.J., so I really can relate to this.  Hope You enjoy it.





     Reprinted without permission from Power and Motoryacht, August, 1989

                      The Wimpification of Our Boatyards
                                 by Tom Fexas
(His italics are my Caps)

	As we speak, a national treasure is being destroyed before our
	eyes.  A great part of this country's maritime heritage - old,
        dirty boatyards - are being cast aside for that which is trendy.

 	Take, for example, The Ramp in San Francsico - this was one of
        California's grittiest, saltiest boatyards, catering to working
        vessels of gnarly local fishermen and knowledgeable pleasure
        boatmen.  I've been there.  This was a REAL boatyard, a WATERMAN'S
        boatyard.

        What happened is almost too horrible to relate here and is graph-
        ically depicted in the photo above (sorry, no picture here, but..

          [ Approx. 60 - 80 people sitting around little tables in the
            open air. Boats can be made out in the background but the
            view is broken up by trees.  Most people facing the boats.
            Everybody looks well dressed in a casual way, sports jackets,
            sweaters.]

        A perfectly good boatyard has been turned into a..a.. DAMMED
        YUPPIE BOATYARD/CAFE!  Imagine, a BOATYARD/CAFE!

        Yes friends, the Ramp(a strong simple name that came from the
        steep concrete launch ramp at the yard) has been bought out. Its
        now The San Francisco Boatyard.  The day of the Yuppie boatyard
        has arrived and yuppies will be descending on boatyards the way
        a hoard of cockroaches would attack a scrap of moldy food under
        the sink.


                      Real Boatyards Don't Serve Perrier

        We all know that Califonians are trendsetters and what happens there
        spreads to the rest of the country and, thereafter, the world.  Yes,
        the Yuppie cockroaches are coming to a boatyard near you(if they're
        not already there).  This is a truly nefarious development for
        boatmen who have known and loved boatyards all thier lives, and
        flags the end of boatyards as we know them and the beginning of
        the "yupyard".

        To quote an article in the Western Boatman(Feb.,1989) about the
        transformation of The Ramp: "Every Sunday, for example, hordes of
        young San Franciscans swarm into the cafe's outdoor patio for
        eggs benedict and clarient marmalade.  Boat owners in the ajacent
        yard are adjunct listeners to the jazz concerts that are staged
        amid the clattering plates and chattering customers."

        EGGS BENEDICT? CLARIENT MARMALADE?  JAZZ CONCERTS? CLATTERING
        PLATES?  CHATTERING CUSTOMERS?  IN A BOATYARD???

        Old boatyards!  I love them with a passion.  They have a friendly
        feeling to them thats difficult to describe.  There's something
        about bottom-paint spattered dirt(real boatyards are never paved),
        the old sheds, and the rickety docks that make one FEEL GOOD.

        There are a few left in every boating town, but they're disappearing
        fast.  Connecticut has a good number left, as does Long Island,
        New York.  The Lakes region has some good ones but there are very
        few left in Florida.  South Jersey probably has some of the best
        old yards in the country.  But these great yards are fast being
        replaced by wimpy places called "Boating Centers", with Butler
        buildings and dry stack storage and, yes, cafes.


                              Yup, Yup and Away

        Yuppies.  God, I hate them and all they stand for.  "Yuppie" 
        initially referred to a young urban professional - in other words,
        young people with bucks.  It was originally a COMPLIMENTARY term.
        Six or seven years agao one could be proud to be a Yuppie.  Now,
        Yuppie-ism has turned into a fanatic cult, a cult with its own
        uniforms, language, and rituals.  Worse are yuppie imposters who
        can't really qualify as yups, but do thier best to act like them.
        The original yuppies shun all the foolishness and are doing their
        own thing now.

        Today, "Yuppie" is an extremely derogatory term, one which I would
        think twice about applying to my worse enemy.  Yuppies are phony,
        pompous, backstabbers to whom "getting ahead" is paramount.  They
        accumulate things just to have THINGS - not because they like them.

        Yuppies drive - no WEAR - BMW's and Mercedes, not because they
        appreciate their features, but because they are a part of the dress
        code.  A car is like a pair of loafers or a jacket - simply an
        accessory with a three pointed star or kidney grilles for the express
        purpose of impressing other yups.  They don't care about, nor are
        they aware of the cars great heritage or its handling and brakes.
        Whats important is IMAGE.

        Look at the picture!  It really says it all.  One glance tells you
        exactly what kind of people these are:  Investment bankers, Stock
        analysts, doctors, and yes, worst of all, LAWYERS.  It's all there:
        The Top-Siders and fake bomber jackets and imported sweaters and
        85 dollar haircuts and gold rolexes and 300 dollar sunglasses(with
        unnecessary straps around their necks).  No doubt "Calvin Klein"
        is written all over their damm underpants.

        You know, when I was in the Merchant Marines, I, too, wore under-
        wear with a name on it.  It was MY name stenciled on the waistband.
        In those days, nobody would even dream of wearing underwear with
        ANOTHER GUY'S name on it - especially a guy like Calvin Klein!


                           A Yuppie Spectator Sport


        To me, boatyards were always a kind of refuge from the world, a
        not quite respectable place where one could go and become part
        of an underground fraternity that people on the outside didn't
        understand.  They were places you would'nt take your mother.  
        They were places where guys could get together, scratch, belch, 
        say rotten things, laugh, and drink beer while they worked.

        A boatyard was a place where you could take a pee in the woodpile.
        No more.  How could you, with hundreds of sunglassed yuppo eyes
        staring at your every move.  Besides, these yupyards have spotless
        his and hers bathrooms now.

        What these yuppies and yuppie imposters do, see, is decend on the
        cafe/boatyards on the weekends, stuff eggs benedict and quiche
        (we all now what kind of people eat quiche) into their manicured
        faces and WATCH guys working on boats.

        Look at the picture - nearly everybody is facing the boatyard like
        its a damm STAGESHOW.  

        I can just hear one of these phonies in his affected singsong
        voice say to his wife, "Oh, look dear.  There's a man actually
        PAINTING A BOTTOM! I've often wondered how bottoms got painted."
        BOATYARDS HAVE BECOME A YUPPIE SPECTATOR SPORT.  What' this
        world coming to?  Maybe its a commie plot.


                                  Coming Up:
                          Engine Rebuild?Health Spas


        Boatyards soda machines which once dispensed bad stuff like
        high octane sodas - tough drinks that rotted your teeth on 
        contact - will now dispense Perrier and Evian.  Boatyard marine
        stores are changing too.  Now they sell stuff like bronze wool
        and drain plugs in DESIGNER PACKAGES.

        Anything liquid you buy, like turpentine and thinner, now has
        a foolish saftey cap on it.  And, guys working in the yard wear
        saftey glasses.  HALF the written stuff on anything you buy is a
        warning label.

        All of this comes courtesy of the same damm yuppie lawyers you see
        sitting in the picture.  Yuppies browse thru marine stores like
        they do Bloomingdales, buying stuff like designer-packaged bilge
        cleaner(real boatmen know that you simply dump some dishwashing
        liquid into the bilge to do the job).

        A boatyard/cafe...it boggles the mind.  What the hell's coming next?
        An engine rebuild shop/health spa?  A boat supply store/sorbet
        counter?  A carpentry shop/Mrs. Field's Cookie Store?  The end of an
        era is here folks.  My advice is to pee in the woodpile while you
        can.

I loved that article! Ive felt that way for a while about boatyards.

I dont mean to turn this into a soapbox, or an economic discussion, but just 
maybe the prices of slips and boats will come down, and boatyards will return 
when this damn 'Credit Economy' bubble bursts, and all the yuppies are 
foreclosed. I cant help but believe that $100 per ft prices for slips can only
be paid by people with no value for money.

    This is already a soapbox and an economic discussion.
    
    great article...thankx for putting it in, (as it were)___mb

    Wellll.... just to start an update since this string is a bit old.
    
    I just priced slips in the Annapolis Md. area.  I did not even ask in
    the downtown marina since I knew that would be $$$$$.
    Nearby areas varied in price for 1 year for a 34'
    
    Wet Slip - $1200 to $2800
    Lift Slip - $2300 to $3400
    Rack storage (covered or uncovered boatel) - $1400 to $2000
    
    Garrison.

ok, I'm guessing a wet slip is a slip in the water, a rack slip is one on the
boat rack but what is a lift slip?

George

    Sort of a hybrid.  It is a dedicated slip, like a wet-slip, so you can
    party at the pier when you get in, don't have to wait for the marina to
    put your boat in like a for a rack.
    The difference is, it has a lift built into the slip.  I have a 34'
    Scarab III, with a clean gelcoat bottom. No anti-fouling paint.
    (Most of the Fountain/Scarab/Cigarette style boats are unpainted for
    performance) So, you pull in to your slip, center the boat over the
    lift cradle and wind her up out of the water! Voila! No paint, no
    barnacles no moss!
    
    Garrison.

 A 34' Scarab III...

 Bet you know where all the gas stations are... Let's see... leave onset,
 stop at woods hole (gas) rock n roll up to cuttyhunk (gas) zip over to 
 the Vinyard (gas) back to woods hole (gas) and into onset (on fumes) That
 would be a cool day!

 -Sully

    re: -1
    
    :)
    
    Not that bad!
    3300rpm = ~40mph = ~34-35gph
    With a 200 gal tank, I've got reasonable range.
    The upside is that the whole Cheasapeake Bay is now just a day trip!
    I can get to my home town in half the time by boat than by car during
    friday beach traffic.
    
    It does get bad if you wind her up:
    5200rpm = 57mph = SLURP!!!!! (I swear you can watch the needle move!)
    
    Garrison.