Conference vicki::boats

    Bernie, you got a good question. In my opinion, your dealing
    with a perception problem. Most of us percieve Bayliner as 
    a "cost" boat. In other words, "cheap" with a low profit margin.
    In your case, where you intend using it for fresh water only,
    i think you'll do ok. There are not, and were never designed
    for use in salt. Their name seems to indicate that.
    
    Why are there so many around, PRICE. I honestly believe
    that when most folks look for a boat, they weight their
    decision heavily on cost. However, i think they are being
    a little near sighted. Comes time to sell or trade, most
    of them will take a bath, they will have finally understood
    the difference between a cost boat and a quality boat,
    and realize the leap is monumental. Another noteworthy point
    today there are grades of everything, ex. stainless steel,
    bayliner may brag about stainless, but whch grade.
    
    P.S. i doubt they use it.  In the end, its your decision,
    and your money, if a better quality boat, has a cost differential
    of +20% buy it, in the end you'll recover more of your
    $$$$$ than with a bayliner.
    
    hope this helps,
    
    jim.

re  < Note 268.1 by TYCOBB::J_BORZUMATO >
                         -< invest, don't waste..... >-

    Bernie, you got a good question. In my opinion, your dealing
    with a perception problem. Most of us percieve Bayliner as 


	I agree, its more of a perception problem than one of reality, 
however perception and reputation WILL affect resale value.  I've seen 
some old Bayliners running around in Vermont that have been in fine 
shape and I don't mean boats that have been polished and coddled every 
week-end either.  It seems to me that the Mercedes buyer gets more 
money at trade in time, but its from a higher priced car and he 
probably loses more total dollars than the chevvy buyer.  If its a 
question of a $7,000 Bayliner vs a $9,000 something else, well...  
....I doubt you'd really get the extra $2,000 back out after a couple 
or three years.  Of course, if its a question of the $7,000 bayliner 
that you CAN afford vs NO BOAT then the answer is obvious.

	Reg

    I mostly agree with what has already been said. It really comes
    down to what you can spend. I was all set to buy a Bayliner 2550
    back in 86. Here is what happened.
    I agreed on a boat with a V8 and marine at a goog price,when I went
    to sign papers it was a 6 with a port-a-pot. They wanted almost
    2K more than agreed upon.
    Bayliner does not use any flotation in boats under 20'.
    Check how the hand rails are mounted.In 86 they were screwed down
    into the deck instead of mounting from the bottom with backing plates.
    A large dealer in New Jersey had to send sixty boats back with hull
    problems.
    
    So I finally wound up with a Searay and I'm convinced I made the
    right choice.
    
    Do some shopping around but you have to deceide what you want a
    Yugo or an Olds.
    
    P.S. They are pretty but its only skin deep.
    Walt

    re .1,.2,.3
    
    I couldn't have said it any better myself..I agree 100%. Do not be so
    quick to jump at an extra low priced Bayliner, when for a little more,
    $1k-$2k you could pick a higher quality boat (ie. Stingray, Sea Ray.
    etc..).
    
    We are not making a Yugo/Porsche comparison here, much more like,
    Yugo/Chevy or Olds. In the end you will be much better off... 
    
    							Good Luck
    							  -mike-

re .2, .3, and .4:

Let's not forget that those of us who work at DEC are rather well paid 
and can probably afford a better quality boat than a Bayliner if we so 
choose. .1 has it right -- price is of overwhelming importance to many 
if not most people because they simply don't have much money. Many more 
people simply don't wish to spend much for a boat or whatever. There are
many more Chevies sold than Oldmobiles and many more Bayliners sold than
the-more-expensive-boat-of-your-choice. There will always be a market
for inexpensive, even cheap, boats both new and used. When it comes time
to sell, there will be a bigger market for a low priced used boat than a
higher priced used boat. Quality is only one of many considerations when 
buying a boat. 

    Bernie,
    
    I own the very model you are talking about - 1700 bowrider w/ 85HP
    Force. This spring will start my 3rd year with this boat - no problems,
    no sign of finish deterioration, nor rust on the metal parts, etc. And
    the Force 85 has been a champ, requiring only new plugs 2 x Season!
    It's a real easy engine to work on. 
    
    My only suggestion might be to look at the 19ft bowrider (with either
    the 125Hp ob or the i/o). If you can handle the extra expense, you
    will find yourself far more comfortable in seas where you wouldn't be
    with the 17'. This is not a reflection on bayliner, merely on the
    difference between 17' and 19' boats. 
    
    As for the other replies,
    
    I'd like to know where and how you can get a stingray or a searay
    for only $1-2k more than a bayliner. Does this addt'l 1-2k include
    radio, trailer and canvas? The bayliner base price does.

    Bill    

    I have been following the comments in this file about Bayliners
    for some time and have ( usually) kept my thoughts to myself.
    But now I have to enter my two cents worth. But, isn't that
    what this conference is all about ?
    
    I have never owned a Bayliner.  I have been boating exclusively
    on salt water for several years ( Wellcraft 25')and have also
    spent a considerable amount  of time on my friend's Bayliners. He had
     a 24' and now has a 28' command bridge model. I have to take exception
     to other comments that Bayliners are not made for salt water !
      Bayliners, at least in the 80's, are high quality, reliable boats
    that offer tremendous value for the cost.  And that's where I think a
    lot of the misconception arises.   Several years ago, Bayliner realized they
    had to change their way of doing busines to survive.  They now offer
    many less options, resulting in tremendous savings in manufacturing.
    They have improved the quality of their product, more stainless
    vs aluminum, better vinyl, etc.  They were able to build a better
    quality boat at less cost and they passed this savings on to the
    consumer.  I can understand why a lot of dealers selling other
    brands are quick to bad mouth Bayliners because they are losing
    sales and are having trouble competing.  Now, I will not try to
    debate the merits of Bayliner vs Searay or Cruisers, Inc, etc.
    But, I do believe that Bayliners are every bit as seaworthy and
    reliable as any other brand.  If you follow the boating mags, you
    will find very favorable articles about Bayliner.
    Can anyone say that about Chris Craft ? Who is the Coast Guard
    investigating for cracked hulls ?  Clue - It isn't Bayliner.                                   
                                                                
    How many Bayliner owners enter notes saying they are unhappy with
    their boat ?   Seems to me that all the negative comments are
    from non-Bayliner owners.  Come on guys.  If you don't own one,
    maybe you aren't really in a position to  knock them.
    
    This debate is entirely too reminiscent of the "war" between
    Harley owners and "rice burners" but that's a topic for a
    different notes  file.
                                             

    I agree with .8 a friend of mine has had a 17' and now owns a 23'
    and hasn't had lick of problems . He also was able to sell the 17'
    rather quickly when he decided it was to short . I seem to remember
    hearing about Bayliner having hull problems years ago . But they
    fixed that . Had to or go out of business .
    		my .02 cents
    				CAPTAIN MARK
    

    re: .2
    
    reg, maybe you didn't understand what i was saying. Although
    you did point out that it was a "perception". My point is
    this, if enough people have that opinion whather right or
    wrong, you the owner of a Bayliner share the problem.
    Personally i have never owned one, and i don't have any 
    plans too.
    
    the question at hand is: has anyone out there had one and sold
    it, if so, could you share the details with us. i think the
    proof may lie in the answers. Or can we gt some purchase
    prices of some 2 year old Bayliners, and some of the other
    brands of the same length, and i'll get there current book
    values. We'll see if the book values have held or not.
    
    jim.
    
    
    
    jim.

re  < Note 268.10 by TYCOBB::J_BORZUMATO >
                         -< need data, not opinions. >-

    re: .2
    
    reg, maybe you didn't understand what i was saying. Although
    you did point out that it was a "perception". My point is
    this, if enough people have that opinion whather right or
    wrong, you the owner of a Bayliner share the problem.

	I don't disagree....  I was just making the point that maybe 
I'll get more for my SeaRay when I trade than if I had bought a 
Bayliner, but I doubt that I will get back the whole difference.  
Maybe thats OK, I will have had the  "satisfaction"  (yeah, nebulus) 
of having owned the SeaRay vs a Bayliner.  Whether thats worth the 
difference is a value judgement and we can't call that for each other. 
Even if I did get it all back there's the opportunity cost of having 
the additional money tied up, again that may be OK if its worth it to 
me (in whatever units I chose).  For  "real data"  the credit union 
could look them both up in the boats blue book, that will give new price, 
wholesale and average retail...  ....but depreciation isn't the only 
factor.  For  *_ME_*  the whole decision to buy a boat (and to buy THAT 
boat)  involved much more than the  $$$s.new vs $$$s.when_I_trade  
equation, i.e.  I  "WANTED"  the SeaRay, just raw want.

	Reg

    re: .12
    
    understood.  WANT is certainly in the "list of good reasons"
    regardless of the subject. I'm not convinced i did a good job
    of answering the original question. But anyway i guess thats 
    why i enjoy reading this notes file.
    
    
    Cabin Fever Jim.
    
    
    

    Trailer Boats Mag has done more than one test on different models
    of Bayliner. In every issue they show previous tests and they can
    be ordered for a couple of bucks.
    
    Bottom line is you have to decide what you want. Money is a factor,
    but there are several others which have been discussed. These various
    factors have different weights for different people. Only the
    individual can decide.
    
    In my case I had my check book in hand and was already to put the
    deposit on an "entry level" model (in this case it was Sunbird).
    When I tried to write out the check, my hand would not work until
    I decided on something that was at least perceived to be of "higher"
    quality (Stingray). It ended up costing me about 3K more and it
    wasn't an even comparison. 
    
    I enjoy being on the water (lakes) but will confess I can't tell
    if the Sunbird or Stingray is a better boat. I guess I just was
    afraid of not being able to sell the Sunbird if I needed to/wanted
    to without taking a bath.
    
    Again, each of us needs to be "comfortable" with the purchase we
    make or we will never be quite happy or we will be constantly second
    guessing ourselves and our decisions. In my case, I wanted to enjoy
    my boat and the water and not be worrying if I bought the "right"
    brand.
    
    

    re .7
    
    Bill, back in 87 when you and I bought ours boats, Bayliner was the
    one and only leader in package entry level boats. I myself came very
    close to buying their 17' ski boat (Cobra outboard) from a dealer in NH 
    who sells mostly camping equipment. But after much research/boat shows/
    talking to people and sitting in many Bayliners and other brand boats -
    I decided to buy a Baja. That was my own personal pick because of my
    performance boat bias.
    
    Now I'm not saying don't buy Bayliner..all I'm saying is it's 1989.
    Bayliner is now NOT alone in the "Package Entry Level Boat" market,
    there are many other choices (ie. Wellcraft,Sea Ray, 4 Winns,..etc).
    As an example the 1700 Bayliner bowrider retails for $7995 while the
    Wellcraft 17 Sport retails for $8995, only $1K difference when measured
    retail to retail.
    
    So go to the Boat shows and do some research...there are many choices
    out there these days...
    
    							Good Luck
    							-mike-

    FWIW- The March issue of Popular Mechanics has a short
    review/comparison of the following boats:
    
    Bass Tracker 1800TF Tested price=9999
    Bayliner 1900 Capri Tested price=9795
    Chris-|Craft Cavalier 17 Tested price=9854
    Larson All-American DC-170 Tested price=9985
    Sunbird SPL 150 Tested price=5999
    Wellcraft 170 Sport Tested price=8995
    
    We own the Larson DC-165 bowrider, bought new in '87. We see a lot
    of Bayliners at Point Sebago, and they are sexy looking boats. 


         __
    * __|__|__  *    *    *     *
  *     (**)   V *  *  *   |* *   *
   *   (    )--| *  _______0_______  *  	   	
 _____(______)_|_________U___U______*___
	                
      "The Sno-man"			

	This came across USENET today, and since we have been discussing this 
    issue, I thought it might be useful to place it in this note...

								-mike-
================================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Path: decwrl!labrea!agate!ucbvax!hplabs!hpfcdc!mcb
Subject: The Bashing of a Bayliner
Posted: 14 Feb 89 21:29:28 GMT
Organization: HP Ft. Collins, Co.
                                                          
Re: Bayliner boats
 
I thought I would get back to you on why I don't like bayliners.  I owned one
for a few years.  It was a tri-hull (17' Capri) and I now hate tri-hulls.
The previous owner had to slam on the brakes for someone and the trailer didn't
hold the boat causing the hull to get severly gouged.  He bought a Shoreland'r
tilt trailer which worked quite well.  My Mercury 115 didn't even have power
trim!  Talk about an oversight.
 
Anyway, here is what a good friend of mine (he may have time to deny *that* :-)
had to say some time ago in this group:
 
Michael Berry   ARPA:mcb%hpfcde@hplabs.HP.COM   UUCP:hplabs!hpfcla!mcb
 
-----------------
 
It's no accident that Bayliner boats are consistently the lowest priced power
boats on the market.  Somebody has to be on the low end of the spectrum and
Bayliner has elected to fill that position, just as Hyundai and Yugo have a
comparable position in the automobile hierarchy.  The key word in the
discussion is "cheap", in both meanings of the word.  The most obvious example
is that Bayliner uses chopper guns to lay up their fiberglass hulls; a
high-quality fiberglass hull will be 100% hand-laid.  Also, check out the
trailer that comes with the boat while you're at it.  The ones that I have
seen under the smaller Bayliners are marginal at best.
 
For what it's worth, a couple of things that I have come to believe are:  In
buying a used boat you generally get what you pay for; in buying a new boat
you *always* get what you pay for.
 
You're fortunate in having a couple of really first-class boat manufacturers
in your area, so I'm sure that the show in Cobo Hall will have booths for
them.  Look for Tiara, which is made in Michigan, and Cruisers, which is made
in Wisconsin.  Other names to watch for are Grady-White, Sea Ox, Boston
Whaler, Cobalt, and Skipjack.  None of them are noted for making whizzy ski
boats, but they are *the* top of the line when it comes to quality in a
trailerable power boat.  Use them for comparison purposes against whatever
falls in your price range.  Compare the thickness of the hull in several
places if they will let you.  Compare the quality of the deck hardware.  Look
at how much attention has been paid to details, i.e.  how the pieces fit
together.
 
If you want a boat that will last long enough to give you a reasonable
trade-in value, I'd recommend that you scour the want-ads and boatyards for a
well cared for used boat of good quality--- one that was designed to last more
than a few years.  Spend the same amount of money that you would have spent on
the new cheapie, including a *thorough* checkout by a competent boat mechanic.
Your chances of satisfaction are a lot better.  If you're really dedicated to
low-end boats look at Glastron, Sea-Sprite, Invader, and so many others that I
couldn't begin to name them all.
 
At your altitude a 130 hp I/O on a 19 foot hull should be adequate for several
skiers unless you're into barefooting.  Here at 5000 feet an 85 hp outboard on
a 16 foot tri-hull served me well for several years of skiing.  It's largely a
factor of horsepower to weight, so a 125 hp outboard should be snappier than a
125 hp I/O.
 
Bill Mullaney
{ihnp4!hpfcla|hplabs}!hpfclp!wtm
 
The above is based solely on personal bias and is subject to change at the
next synapse.
 
------------

    Oh well, why not!?
    
    I agree with Jim and whose others who felt that the reason Individuals
    such as I who look at purchasing Bayliners was basiclly price. I
    looked at boats for close to 2 years before I purchased one. I first
    looked at the Bayliner, why??, it was the price. I found it to be
    very hard to spend what they want for some boats, since I might be
    using it 1 month out of the year tops! Well, I didn't purchase a
    Bayliner and I spent more than what I wanted but I know I bought
    a solid boat, better ROI If I want to sell again. Hey some people
    like to ride around in a Caddie, Volvo, etc, and some like to ride
    around in a VW rabbit. It comes down to what you can
    spend or want to spend and your ROI can depend on what you spend.
                  
    PS/ I have also seen alot of Bayliners in the Ocean.

    
    
    Instead of starting another note I'll ask it here...What are you're
    opinions on Penn Yan boats??
    
    						rb

re 3. and .12:

Bayliners and Searays are both built by the Brunswick Corporation.

    I now own my second Bayliner boat.  My first was a 1984 21' Ciera.
    I sold that last year and purchased a 1988 28' Sunbridge.  Both
    boats have been a great deal of fun and satisfaction.
    
    I moved up from a 21' to a 28' for a larger boat and more comfort.
    My 21' ran very well for four years and I expect that the 28' will
    give me similar performance.
    
    Bayliner is a manufactured boat and comes with all the features
    that the manufacturer builds into it.  Like other more custom built
    boats, you don't get a lot to choose from.  However, this enables
    them to build and equipt them a lot cheaper.  The boat is fairly
    modest looking which again saves manufacturing expense and they
    are able to market these boats for 20-30% below other boats.
    
    One problem with their design is that they build to much of the
    boat above the waterline.  This causes maneuverability problems
    when docking.  My 21' had a four cylinder Volvo engine which was
    not enough power for salt water once you got four people in the
    boat.
    
    I have found the Bayliner folks in Arlington, WA very good to work
    with when you need help.  I am somewhat disappointed in their dealer
    structure.  Most of them are a step above used car dealers and don't
    support their after sale effort.  The dealer in Cohasset is a division
    of Garvey Oldsmobile.  The dealer in western Massachusetts has a
    bad reputation for after sale and delivery problems.  Check out
    the performance of your dealer by asking other customers on how
    they were treated.  Otherwise, you can save yourself a lot of money
    and enjoy a lot of good boating.

    For those of you who are already members of Boat U S, i urge you
    to read this months issue of Seaworthy. With specific regard
    to the interview with Jarvis Newman. For those who are not
    members, and not familiar with Jarvis Newman, i'll explain.
    Jarvis was a builder of custom power and sail hulls. 
    (no they wern't cheap) some of them were built in the late
    50's and most are still afloat today. He points that in the
    35 ft. hull, it took 5 barrels of resin, and today, a lot
    of builders use about 1 barrel, and some are down to 3/4's
    of a barrel. He goes on to explain, that chop guns down't
    belong in the boating business, too much room for inconsistency.
    This can bring about weak spots in the hull. The article is
    worth the reading. The above is not my opinion, and i'll be glad
    to copy the article for anyone who would like. In summary of 
    this topic, and in summary of my opinions, I run in Buzzards Bay,
    and for those of you who know "they didn't name it after a pigeon"
    it can get real crappy there, and you better have the hull,
    and design to take it. I don't have time for the bs of marginal
    unproven hulls, if its a few more bucks, then its a few more
    bucks, "the ocean has no mercy"  don't forget it.
    
    thanks for listening,
    
    jim.
    

re  < Note 268.20 by MSCSSE::BERENS "Alan Berens" >


>  re 3. and .12:

>  Bayliners and Searays are both built by the Brunswick Corporation.



	*_MY_*  SeaRay was built before the merger/takeover.

	*_MY_*  decision to buy the SeaRay was also before the merger/takeover.

	I don't know to what extent SeaRay and Bayliner are autonomous
companies/divisions of the Brunswick Corporation.  I also don't know if there
has been any  "leveling up"  or  "levelling down"  of quality since the m/t'o.


	Reg

    re: .20
    Searay and Bayliner are owned by the same parent company, they are
    not built by the same company. That's a big difference. 
    
    Rick

     First off, let me thank everyone that responded to my concerns
    and questions. All your points are well taken, and much appreciated.
    I'm getting a much better understanding of what an entry level boat
    is, and that there are other things one should be concerned about
    besides price. I now know that Bayliner is a good quality boat,
    but. there are others out there that need to be considered also,
    and that is exactly what I am going to do. I will now be able to
    go forth to upcoming boatshows with a much greater knowledge of
    what I should be looking for and questions to be asking. Thanks
    again to all of you. I had no idea this note would provoke so much
    response, but I'm glad it did. You've been a great help.
    
    Bernie

    Whew... You guys were melting the ice on the lakes for a while.
    
    I use to own a 1984 24 Ciera Sunbridge (bayliner), I kept it on
    lake Winni, I bought the boat used (1 year old) I never had any
    Major. The bayliner is not a high quality boat as we all know. But
    I will say one thing about Bayliner, for the price and the amount
    of boat you get, you will not beat it! It all comes down to one
    common denominator for all uf us...MONEY! How much can I afford?
    How much boat can I get for my Money? How much quality can I get
    for my Money? What dealer is going to knock the most of the list
    price? On a $7000 boat, quality is not a big factor, unless the
    hull cracks or the thing is a total piece of junk, like a Galaxy.
    Thats my 2 centavos, go for the Bayliner, I don't think you'll find
    a better deal. ( I never thought I say this about a Bayliner).
    
                               jeff

    I agree, MONEY is a serious limitation no matter what you do.
    
    But as for which boat to buy or what type, 1st consider what your
    going to do with it. Then understand what kinda bucks your gonna
    have to pay, then apply what kind of money you can spend.
    You might find you may not be able to afford what you need,
    or have to wait awhile, or consider a used boat.
    
    Application drives the kind of quality you will need.
    
    its been fun, this notes file can dry up in the off season.
    
    jim.
    

    Hope know-one is attempting to compare a Bayliner to a Seaway because
    there isn't any comparsion! Its also very hard to understand that
    both boats belong to the same company!???
    

    
    RE:  Seaway
            ^
    
    Go back and read the previous replies.  The discussion is about
    Sea Ray, not Seaway.  A totally different animal.
        ^                                
    
    And yes, Sea Ray and Bayliner are owned by the same company, Brunswick,
    which also owns many other lines.  Even if Bayliner were a total
    piece of junk (I'm not saying that it is), that doesn't mean every
    other Brunswick product is also junk.  It just wouldn't make sense
    for every one of their product lines to be exact duplicates of each
    other, with the same models, same price, same quality etc.  It all
    boils to the same thing, how much do you want to spend, and how
    much quality do you need?
    
     

    I personally am not impressed with Sea-Ray either. Searay is definalty
    above Bayliner for quality and craftmanship although. Lots of people like
    Carvers or Chris-Craft too, I am not impressed with those either. 
    Cruisers Inc., Wellcraft and Century are great boats, they cost
    more than others and are far better quality, but you pay for that.
    You get what you pay for and you don't 
    A guy can sit is his SeaRay and look at a Bayliner and call it cheap,
    I can sit in my Cruisers Inc. and call Searay cheap, another guy
    can sit in his Egg Harbor and call a Cruiser Inc. cheap. And Donald
    Trump can sit in the Trump Princess and laugh at all uf us!  :^)
                                                                
    
                                    Jeff

    MY BROTHER HAS BEEN IN THE BOATING BUSINESS FOR YEARS AND HAS WORKED
    ON MANY A BOATS. AND HE WILL TELL YOU THAT BAYLINER IS ONE OF THE
    WORST QUALITY BOATS  OUT THERE. HE HAS DONE MANY FIBERGLASS REPAIRS
    AND THE HULLS ARE PAPER THIN... HE WAS OUT TEST DRIVING ONE A FEW
    YEARS AGO FOR A CUSTOMER AND PART OF THE WINDSHIELD (GLASS)FELL
    ONTO HIS LAP. ALOT OF STRIPED SCREWS AND SCREWS THAT HAVE BACKED
    OUT BECAUSE OF VIBRATION.NO COMMENTS ON THE FORCE MOTOR,ITS A
    DIVISION OF CHRYSLER CORP.. TAKE THAT FOR WHAT ITS WORTH....

    Rick,
    
    Thanks for pointing out the correct way to pronounce Sea Ray,
    I should have known that since I almost purchased one. However
    I think that the Sea Ray Boat is an independent Company from
    Brunswick? 
    

    I agree with note 32 in the way he pointed out some of the things
    that improve quality and dependability in boats such as well anchored
    screws, non chalk construction etc.  The thing that scares me on
    Bayliner is the ability to flex the hull just by leaning on it.
    I have friends who do own Bayliners and are constantly tightening
    up loose screws.  One of the large problems, I now hear is corrected,
    was the use of green softwood in the hull construction of their
    larger boats.  I have seen two year old 28' plus baylines in need
    of new stringers due to this problem.  I don't know how true it
    is, but the Bayliner sales people out here are claiming that Bayliner
    and Sea Ray are now using the same identicle hull since the merger.
    Cutting cost to lower the price of a boat will also lower the quality
    and dependability of the boat.
    
    Jim
    

    Just for general information, I was recently told that the MAXUM
    boat make is basicly a Bayliner and the reason why Brunswick
    came out with the Maxum was becuase of the need to improve
    the Bayliner line without the Bayliner Name because of the
    past problems with the Bayliner. Again, I herad this from
    someone that is really into boats and gets most of the boating
    magazines. I have also been told by another individiual that 
    I might want to get a copy of the Coast Guards annual report
    that they put out giving detailed information on distress 
    calls for the year basiclly explaining the different problems with
    boats(Percentage) and the different makes of the of the boat brands
    it occurs on?? Has anyone out there seen this report?
    Also, more about the MAXUM, I has told by a Mariner that sold
    the MAXUM that is indeed is made by the Brunswick company.

    MAXUM is made by Brunswick, it is the same as the bayliner in appearene
    (hull design looks identical). The only difference my naked eye
    could see was slightly better carpet, seats and teak. 
    
    Oh ya... MAXUM is red and Bayliners are blue

    
    
    
                           Maxum's are red,
                           Bayliner's are blue,
                           If you buy a Bayliner,
                           You'll be sorry too.
    
    
    
    
    couldn't resist it,
    
    JIM.

    I recently bought a brand new Maxum 1700 Bowrider 85Hp Force. I
    saw the same deal for the Bayliner 17 ft for $6995 but went for
    the Maxum instead. They basically are the same boat, hull design,
    motor and interior layout but there are differences. Deck hardware
    is bolted on instead of screwed on, hand-laid fiberglass hull,
    analog type gauges for example. The hull design is the same because
    it is one of the best in the industry for this size of boat. The
    trailer is also definetly a step up from Bayliner's standard trailer.
    
       My biggest worry was over the Force motor. I found that there
    have been changes made since Brunswick bought the Chrysler engine
    and renamed it Force. It is cheaper because it doesn't have fancy
    bells and whistles that other manufacturers put on their engines,
    believe me I'll work it over this summer.
    
       I wanted a decent quality boat for a decent price and I think
    I found it in the Maxum. One of the major factors in my decision
    though was the dealer, a good, top quality boat is still susceptible
    to "new boat" problems, a trustworthy, reputable dealership should
    be a major point to consider.
    
                                       Mike H.

    re: .36
    
      SeaRAY might be a separate company from Brunswick, However Brunswick
    OWNS the SeaRAY company. I was reading an issue of SaltWater Sportsman
    mag. this past weekend and was lookin' at a full page ad on the
    SeaRAY. At the bottom of the page in fine print....
    
    
    
                                 SeaRAY (C)  A BRUNSWICK COMPANY
    
   /MArk

    re .41
    
    Mike,
    
    Can I ask what Dealer you purchased the MAXUm off of?
    
    Thanks... Stan
    

    
     Hi,
      
     I am a spill-over from the fishing notes. I must add my $.02 for
    Bayliner.
    
     My father and I both own Bayliners. Dad's is a 2650 Sunbridge 87'
    vintage. Mine is a 18 1/2' Bass Trophy 88' vintage.
    
     Dad's has been going strong out of Buzzard's Bay for the pas 2
    season's. No Problems at all. Routine maintenance only. This boat
    has not let us down in any weather or any sea. He has the V8 with
    the Cobra drive.
     
     As stated in a previous note, the Dealer is the all important 
    link. There are only 4 or 5 in Mass. There is only 1 good one.
    North Star Marine in West Wareham on RT28.
                        
                     No Force motor problems
    
     I have a force 125hp outboard which for a full season of tournament
    Bass fishing had only to speeds (1) trolling motor you guess the
    other. I did have some problems with the decking and seats. I called
    Bayliner in Arlington explained my problems to the rep and sent
    him a letter as well. They are in the process of replacing my front
    casting deck and adding additional supports so it won't happen again.
    They are replacing my seats with ones that are stitched instead
    of sewen. And they are replacing my carpet with a higher grade.
    All under warrantee. I simply explained the high visibilty my boat
    get's on the tournament trail and they were eager to implement my
    new design for the front deck.
     As for the trailer, I have the matching trailer which is made by
    Traliers Inc. a noted trailer company. It came complete with bearing
    buddies and chrome/gold mag wheels. Best trailer I've ever owned. 
    
     I guess it's like a good recipe.
    
     Good Dealer + Good Parent Company + Reasonably priced boats = Happy
    Customer. 
             
     
     Dave "BASSMASTER" Sullivan
    
    

     I still can't believe this so I thought I'd put it in here.
    
     Seem like we even have our ripoff dealers way up here in the north
    country. (VT)
    
     I went to a boat show this past weekend. The boat I have been looking
    at, and what brought this note about, the Bayliner Capri 1700 was
    there and afforded me a more comfortable look at it indoors out
    of the weather. The very same boat that is advertised as being on
    sale until March 15,1989, was marked as a boat show special of only
    "$8800.00". I couldn't believe it. Unless I've been in a coma, we
    have only reached 3/6/89. I believe that say's we still have a few
    days left before 3/15/89, and the end of the sale ($6995) price.
    The dealer at the show recognized me and asked me if the boat looked
    familiar? (When I had looked at it, it was outside with about a
    foot of snow on it.) I said the boat did, but not the price. He
    seemed caught a little off guard and kind of stammered for words
    and then said that was the new price. The price it was going to
    after the 15th. He sort of wandered off and didn't seem to want
    me around making noise of the actual sale price. I said no more
    and left. 
    
       I later found out that an uncle of mine and his son had gone
    to the boat show the following day and put a deposit on this very
    boat. When my uncle called and told me about it later that evening
    he said he had talked him (the dealer) down to $8400.00. I then
    told my uncle the story about how that boat was on sale until the
    15th for $6995. and that the dealer was ripping him off. My uncle
    stopped payment on the check the next morning and called the dealer
    asking about the sale price. The dealer advised that he only had
    3 of that paticular model left in stock and that he couldn't let
    them go at that sale price. He did say he would gladly refund my
    uncles deposit. WOW!!!
    
       Questions;  1. Can a dealer decide not to sell a boat at a
    nationally advertised, and manufaturer backed, sale price?
    
                   2. Would the price he was showing (and the only price)
    at the boat show be considered false advertising, if he was not
    making the viewing public aware of the sale price of $6995.?
    
       
     Comment: I have been considering calling Bayliner/Brunswick and
    informing them of this dealership and what has transpired.
    
    
    Comments Please!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    
    Thanks
    
    Bernie

    most of my experiences with factory authorized sales are:
    when the item is on sale, the dealer is usually reimbursed 
    by the manufacturer for what he would usually have sold the
    item for. sounds like the dealer in your uncles situation
    was going for double indemnity.
    
    jim.

    RE: .45

    I have in front of me a Bayliner ad for their 1700 Capri
    Boatshow special.  It says: regular price $8395.  Sale
    price $6995*

    *Manufacturer's suggested pre-season special price in effect
    for a limited time only at participating dealers.  ACTUAL
    PRICES SET BY DEALER.  Taxes, registration, freight and
    dealer prep charges extra.  Prices, specifications and
    equipment may change without notice.

    Seems pretty clear to me.  In fact the dealer was being
    generous letting your uncle out of what was probably an
    enforceable contract.

    One thing to keep in mind is, is deals like this are certain
    to affect your resale.  I'd be wary of buying at the $8400
    price, because when you want to sell, you'll be competing
    with people who bought at the $7000 price.

     Reference to my uncle being let out of the contract. I don't know
    the laws in other states, but here you have 72 hrs. to get out of
    a signed contract.
     
     Thanks for the info though. I was pretty sure there had to be some
    fine print in there somewhere and that the dealer was covered.
    
      I still don't quite understand why he had it marked as a boat
    show special of $8800. and my uncle talked him down to $8400.
    It was a SPECIAL alright!!!
    
    Bernie

    
    Folks,
    
     One other area to look at is maintenance and durability. Most of
    the smaller Bayliners I have seen have one or two gel coat colors
    and a bunch of decals. For the one week-end a month  boater that 
    may be fine, but I live on a lake and have a boat in the water 9 
    months or more a year. I've seen too many decals chewed up in a year 
    or two of hard use. I've also seen many more expensive boats that 
    are 5-8 years old and as good as new ( and these boats get used 5 days
    a week!). You may also want to check the quality of the seat 
    construction, windshield mounting, dashboards, trim, ... to see how they
    will hold up with your anticipated use patterns.     
    
    Chuck
    
     

    I bought the Maxum from Delta Marine in Columbus,Ohio. They also
    sell Rinker, Blue Fin, Mercury, and Yamaha so they have a decent
    selection and a fairly broad knowledge of the products out there.
     They have a pretty good reputation and will be expanding soon so
    I feel almost certain they will be around for a while.
    
                                                Mike H.

    I was at the Washington (DC) boat show last week.  A dealer
    there had a sign claiming they were the highest volume
    Bayliner dealer.  They had a plaque from Bayliner for selling
    $18 million worth of boats during 1987.

    Regardless of personal opinions, that's a LOT of product!

    	- Lee

    Those Bayliners:                                      
    
    I'm almost tempted to buy one -- almost.  A 15' Bayliner w/50 HP
    goes for $5995...
    
    A 15' Boston Whaler (Mischief) w/50 HP sells for $12,700.  

    re: .53 & .54,
    
    .53, isn't the chrysler inboard line buried in the bayliner corp.
    
    .54, with regard to the whole market, i think the price of new
    boats is accelerating faster than it needs to, but i think the
    prices of places to keep them is gone nuts. they (marinas) have
    fallen out of touch with reality. ex. i picked up my last boat
    in hyannis, the guy had paid $4500 for last season, this season
    its gonna be $6000, why, = because. just because. i personally
    think we are approaching the intersection of 2 lines. the price
    of slips has crossed the line "number of boat owners"
    price is up and owners are declining. last year my marina had
    14 empty slips, this year a waiting list, but i think there
    are slips available. the marina up the road has 2 openings,
    in the last 5 years there was always a waiting list.
    you can only bend so much, or what you consider could return
    on the money spent is sliding. when you consider what it 
    takes to keep a boat at a slip, make boat payments,
    etc. etc. you probably could take a very nice 2 week vacation.
    
    
    my cut at why boats, (not just bayliner) sales are slipping.
    
    oh, i forgot the interest rates.
    
    jim.

    Just a brief comment.  I have heard that if you put a flashlight
    up against the inside of the Bayliner you can see the light from
    the outside.  We also once testdrove a Bayliner (17' Cobra) that
    was supposed to put out a lot more horsepower than it actually did.
    I can't remember the size of the "Force" but we couldn't get it
    to go over 35 MPH and it was said that it would do 47 MPH.  
    
    So my recommendation is that you should test drive it before deciding!
    Also, it was very difficult to get into without stepping on the
    seats (the windshield went so far back).  They are nice looking
    boats, but not made very well.  Everything felt very temporary.

    You can see daylight or a flashlight through virtually any glass hull.
    The interesting thing to look for is uniformity of lamination, absence
    of voids and bubbles, etc.
    					J

    	I HAVE BEEN READING ALL THE COMMENTS PRO AND CON ON BAYLINER BOATS.
    I THINK THAT A LOT OF THE COMMENTS ARE TRYING TO COMPARE APPLES TO
    ORANGES. I DON'T THINK THAT 17' BAYLINERS COSTING $5995 CAN BE
    COMPARED TO 28' CABIN CRUISERS COSTING AROUND THE $32,000 MARK.
    	I DO BELEIVE THE BIG CRUISERS ARE DEFINATLY MORE SEA-WORTY AND ARE
    BETTER BUILT THAN THE SMALL BOW RIDERS.
    	I PRESENTLY OWN A 2650 CIERA SUNBRIDGE (1988 VINTAGE). I HAVE JUST
    STARTED MY SECOND TROUBLE FREE SEASON & AM GETTING IT READY TO TAKE IT
    OFF SHORE THIS SPRING.
    	BEFORE I BOUGHT IT I DID MUCH SHOPPING AND PRICE COMPARING.IF MONEY
    WERE NO OBJECT I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT A 28' HATTRAS OR ONE OF THE MANY
    HIGH QUALITY BUILT BOATS.BUT SINCE MY BUDGET DID NOT PERMIT MORE THAN
    ABOUT $30K FOR THE BOAT AND TRAILOR I DECEIDED TO GO WITH THE BAYLINER
    RATHER THAN NONE AT ALL ,SINCE COMPARABLE BOATS OF IT'S SIZE WERE
    PRICED AROUND $50 TO $70K. WAY OUT OF MY PRICE RANGE.
    	IF I WERE IN THE MARKET FOR A SMALL 17' BOW RIDER AND THE PRICE
    DIFFRENCE WAS ONE OR TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS BETWEEN A BAYLINER AND A
    HI-QUALITY MADE BOAT I WOULD SPEND THE EXTRA BUCKS AND GO FOR THE
    QUALITY AND GO FOR THE BETTER MADE BOAT.
    	I'M SURE THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE LIKE ME WHO WOULD
    RATHER HAVE A LESS BETTER BUILT BOAT THAN NO BOAT AT ALL.
    			REGUARDS,
    			RICK   COLUMBIA, S.C.
    
    

    I have some questions for all of the experienced out there, and at the
    risk of rubbing salt in the wound (no pun intended), I would like to
    ask my questions on this note rather than start a new one.
    
    I also am strapped finance wise, and it appears its either Bayliner or
    NO BOAT at all.  I would however, like some opinions on some price
    quotes I have received so far (I hope this is allowed by moderator, I
    won't mention any dealer names).  I intend to use the boat in fresh
    water only.
    
    I am currently looking at the 1989 2155 Ciera Sunbridge with a V8 OMC
    Cobra. The dealer says he can drop a stove in the galley (not standard
    on 2155) and I have to purchase a troller motor.  I would appreciate
    some recomendations on what HP the troller should be (I don't think I
    can trust the dealer on selecting one for me).
    
    I am originally from Washington State (big boating state) and moved to
    Colorado a year ago, and am still serious about boating, mostly to fish
    and troll in the mountain lakes (yes there are plenty of lakes in
    Colorado for family cruisers, we even have fresh water land locked
    salmon).
    
    The only Bayliner dealer in the area is offering me a 2155 with V8 (I
    want V8 at this altitude! some lakes are at 9,500 feet) for about
    $23,795.  Question is, would it be worth it to go out of state?  I have
    considered getting some quotes from Seattle, but I need to consider it
    will be a 3,000 mile round trip which means gas plus meals and that
    precious resource... my vacation time!
    
    Does any one out there have anything to say about the price? Also there
    is $1500 off of that price (rebate) until July 30, making it 22,295
    now.
    
    Any comments would be appreciated, I am kind of curious if anyone out
    there has just purchased a '89 2155 and if this is a fair price.  How
    much are they selling for in New England?
    
    Thanks, ...Mike

    Olympic Boat Center in Bellevue will sell you a 1989 Ciera 2155
    Sunbridge with a 235 HP V8 for $19,750. during the rebate sale.
    You could probably do better since I just called them on the phone
    and asked. Hope this helps.
    
    Steve - DEC Seattle
    

    re .60,.59
    
    	I can tell you for sure, that at least one part of US Marine (ie.
    Bayliner) is currently sitting on a LARGE inventory of boats at their
    factories and some dealers. So don't be surprised if you see some very
    good factory deals in the next 2-3 months...
    
    	As for $19,750 for a 89 Ciera 2155, - I guess it doesn't cost that
    much to ship it down I-5. But, then again that price could be because 
    of their large inventory build up.
    
    	But the question should really be - why Bayliner. I know...I know
    I've heard it before - If I don't get Bayliner, I don't get anything or
    more correctly - If I don't get a Bayliner, I wouldn't be able to get a
    NEW boat. So if money is that tight, what's wrong with a 1-3 year old 
    (fresh water) used boat. You'll save quite a bit of money and have a 
    greater selection too.
    
    	Sorry, but after returing from the Seattle/Arlington/BC area just a
    few hours ago - I felt compelled to reply.
    
    	Above all, I wish you the best of luck...
    
    								-mike-

    When I read .53 (Boating's Family Tree - which should have it's own
    note I think), something struck me as odd, I saw that Brunswick owned
    Mercruiser and U.S. Marine (which includes Bayliner), yet I was sure
    that new Bayliners had OMC/Cobra Stern Drives in them. But this note
    gave me doubts. Over the weekend I checked it out, and sure enough
    Bayliners are equiped with OMC power and drives which doesn't seem to
    make sense since that is $$ flowing out to another company rather than
    to an affiliated company. 
    
    I assume that either or both Bayliner and OMC had different ownership
    in the recent past that had OMC power in Bayliner's making sense and
    that maybe there was a contract established that is binding.   
    
    Does anyone know the answer? 

    john

    
    RE: .63
    
    Yes, Brunswick is in the embarassing position of having to 
    use OMC stern drives in its Bayliner boats.  It seems Bayliner
    signed a long term contract to buy and use the OMC drives, then
    was purchased by Brunswick.  I think the contract runs out this
    year or next, then Bayliner will most likely switch to the 
    Brunswick built Mercruiser.
    
    Prior to switching to the OMC afew years ago, Bayliner used the
    Volvo Penta drives.  The switch from Volvo to OMC to Mercruiser
    should drive the parts people crazy....
    
    Rick W.

	.....AND there is a US Marine Ski boat (I don't remember the 
name, but it doesn't much matter) that has a Force 351 engine in it, 
which just happens to be the Ford block, etc.

	R

    re .65
    
    	That would be US Marine's Ski Challenger with the Force/Ford 351
    235 HP V-8. This is the lowest priced inboard tournament ski boat
    currently available at $15,995 (factory list).
    
    								-mike-

re      <<< Note 268.66 by ASPEN2::BOIKO "Is this Heaven..No, it's Iowa.." >>>
>                      -< Ski Challenger by US Marine... >-

>    re .65
    
>    	That would be US Marine's Ski Challenger with the Force/Ford 351
>    235 HP V-8. This is the lowest priced inboard tournament ski boat
>    currently available at $15,995 (factory list).
    
>    								-mike-


	right, with trailer and gross stick on graphics included at no
extra charge.  Such_a_deal_,I'll_get_a_couple_or_three

	R

    Re Reg:
      The Ski Challenger is an AWSA "Eligible Towboat" which means it
    has passed AWSA "evaluation".
    
    An AWSA "Approved Towboat" means a boat passed "evaluation" and
    participates in 20 or more AWSA sanctioned events.
    
    A "National Tournament Towboat" passed "evaluation", participated
    in 20 or more AWSA sponsored events including regional championships,
    and has towed the National Waterski Championships.
    
    "Evaluation" is a set of performance criterion established by the AWSA
    that is too lengthy for me to type in at the moment...
    
    Doug.

re                        <<< Note 268.68 by SETH::WHYNOT >>>
>                    -< It's "Eligible" but not "Approved" >-

	Thanks for the clarification Doug.  Does this paraphrase to, 

"It passed all the tests, but they havn't sponsored a lot of events" ?

	Oh, its tempting to speculate on what might happen to the 
price if/when they go the next step or two... VERY TEMPTING !

	(but I'll resist, for the time being)

	R

I thought I would offer my opinion... no one asked... just my opinion.

I own a bayliner 17' cuddy cabin powered with the 85 hp force o.b. I must say
that the boats performance is real good and have found the quality of hull, 
interior and exterior to be super. The boat is in the water about 6 mos. out of
the year and gets excessive use. For the money, the use, and maintainance needs
I cannot say 1 bad thing about it! I would consider trading up for a newer 
bayliner if I were in the market. Brunswick reaklly stands by the product (as
depicted in the previous notes) and is eager to help.

CAUTION: as previously stated... be sure your comparing apples to apples and
	 those who have never owned BAYLINER, talk to the millions who do! I 
	 think you will get the same relative reaction... 
	
							
		A very happy bayliner owner!            eRoger

ps.. Its also a pretty 'sexy' looking boat ;^)

    Not too many people with actual Bayliner ownership experience seem
    to have responded, so I thought I'd add my comments. I bought a
    26' in 1982. My choice at the time, given a limited amount of money,
    was either the Bayliner or something somewhat larger, but used.
    I opted for the Bayliner, and kept it for five years. I put about
    a hundred hours a year on the boat, used it in salt water in coastal
    Mass, and cruised it well up into Maine (twice) and as far south
    as Block Island. More times than I like to remember, I was caught
    out in some really rough stuff. So I've probably run about as hard
    as anyone, on a recreational basis, is likely to.
    
    I enjoyed that boat immensely, and at no time had anything but absolute
    confidence in its seaworthiness. It did become obvious to me, after
    a while, that many design decisions were made in the direction of
    cutting costs. For example, the railings were stainless, but of
    a grade such that I had to polish them several times a year. The
    stove was a wierdo model that I could never find parts for. And
    so forth, which means that the issues involved a large number of
    little things that gave me some aggravation and increased my
    maintenance time. Since other equivalent new boats would have cost
    me 5 to 10k more, the question is basically whether they were 10k
    worth of aggravation. And the answer is, not even close.
    
    The real problem came when I went to trade up. Most dealers refused
    to take a Bayliner in trade, and six months worth of advertising
    could not produce a private sale. I finally did find a dealer to
    take it in trade, but it was in the context of buying a MUCH larger,
    more expensive boat. Since it was a trade-in, the official price
    I got for it is meaningless, but I would estimate that what I really
    got was about half my original cost. And the dealer was clearly
    unhappy with the deal. 
    
    As a bottom line, I would say that Bayliners are much more analagous
    to Hyundais than Yugos- average, but solid, machines at an excellent
    price. But I would recommend buying a used one much more than a
    new one, because of the trade-in factor. And I wouldn't buy one
    at all if you plan to own it only a couple of years, because of
    this same issue.
                                                        TOM

Moved by moderator...
================================================================================
Note 759.1            a little humor (no offense to anyone)               1 of 2
HYEND::J_BORZUMATO                                   52 lines  25-SEP-1990 14:01
                            -< a fair observation >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I never in all my time on the water thought i could say this.
    
    In the first week of Aug., i met some friends of mine in Woods
    Hole. They were anchored near-by. They have rafted up with
    2 other boats, and invited us over for later that evening.
    Just come on over when you can. We were not able to get over
    until later in the evening, in fact it was dark by that time.
    
    When we arrived we were directed to the larger boat in the center,
    this thing was lit up well, had a generator running.
    When we boarded there were 9 people aboard already,
    so we brought the total up to 11. 
    
    After we got settled and were introduced around, i asked
    the owner what the length and make was.
    
    I choked, what a 32' Bayliner. (here i am on a Bayliner
    can't stay here too long, a Bayliner)
    But i know my wife would not be to receptive to leaving,
    having just gotten there, and having been invited by her
    good friend, you know.
    
    So i decided to make an exception. I'll stay, but keep 
    an eye on my dinghy in case we start to go down.
    I wound up in the cockpit, with a cold one, with several
    of the guys, on was the owner. NOW he says, suprised
    this is a Bayliner, (yup) Well i was not too happy 
    when my wife suggested we take a look at it, but to
    avoid an argument i agreed.
    We got to the dealership, and the first things i asked
    for, was a Crescent Wrench, a Straight Slot and Phillips
    screwdriver. I took of my jacket, and began crawling around
    the bilges and the entire boat.
    
    He said, "Know what, there's no difference between these
    and the others, they use the same eequipment (brands)
    and the workmanship isn't bad. He's a liscensed electrician.
    
    In all fairness, he had all of the toys on his boat,
    right up to generator and ice-maker. I was pretty
    comfortable, despite 10 other folks being on it.
    He was running a pair of Crusader 270's and said it
    was a rocket ship. I think you'll find them to be lighter
    than some other, (i don't know for sure) but being part
    of the Brunswick family, maybe some things will change.
    
    For the Sea Ray fans, go back to the late 70's and compare
    them with current product, you'll find an amazing difference.
    
    
    JIm.
    

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================================================================================
Note 759.2            a little humor (no offense to anyone)               2 of 2
HYEND::J_BORZUMATO                                    4 lines  25-SEP-1990 14:03
                                  -< oops/// >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    RE -.1 the boat was a 32' bayliner, no bridge...
    
    
    JIm.

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 904.0                   BAYLINER INFO NEEDED ?                    2 replies
WLDWST::SANDOVAL                                      3 lines  10-SEP-1991 17:47
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ANYONE WITH GENERAL INFO ON THE 18-20 FT.BAYLINER OPEN BOW
    INBOARD/OUTBOARD,PRICES-SAN FRANCISCO AREA,VS SEA RAYS OPEN
    BOW,OPITIONS ?

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 904.1                   BAYLINER INFO NEEDED ?                       1 of 2
GRANMA::WFIGANIAK "YEAH..GET THE RED ONE"             5 lines  11-SEP-1991 08:51
                            -< Sea Ray vs Bayliner >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Check out note 268 before we go down another rat hole on the Sea Ray vs
    Bayliner issue. They are both owned by Brunswick Corp. But they are
    still independent builders.
    I have a Sea Ray and am pleased with it.
    Good luck.

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 904.2                   BAYLINER INFO NEEDED ?                       2 of 2
ULTRA::BURGESS "Mad Man across the water"            16 lines  11-SEP-1991 11:21
                         -< "a title for your reply" >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re          <<< Note 904.1 by GRANMA::WFIGANIAK "YEAH..GET THE RED ONE" >>>
>                            -< Sea Ray vs Bayliner >-

>    Check out note 268 before we go down another rat hole on the Sea Ray vs
>    Bayliner issue. They are both owned by Brunswick Corp. But they are
>    still independent builders.

	Well, to me the Ski Ray looks to be a re-graphics-engineered
version of th<rat-hole CENSOR>

>    I have a Sea Ray and am pleased with it.

	Me too, though its a pre-Brunswarp boat.

	R

    OOOOH NOOOO Not again!
    

    
    
    CAUTION:   THIS SUBJECT AND SUBSEQUENT DISCUSSION MAY BRING
    OUT THE WORST IN SOME OF THE FOLKS WHO FREQUENT THIS FILE..
    
    
    JIm
    

    Copied from note 925 by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 925.0                Address for Dory maufacturer                   1 reply
NZOMIS::FINLAY "Only at work if its raining...."     17 lines  27-OCT-1991 21:40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am looking for a contact address of the company who manufacture the
    Dory type boats. I would like the small 13 foot version and a 50 HP
    outboard to use for occasional skiing and pottering about.
    
    Unfortunately here in New Zealand I can't find anyone who supplies the
    Dory, so I thought I could contact the manufacturer and discover his
    main supplier.
    
    Has anyone had experience of the Force outboards supplied with the
    Bayliner boats. I understand the 50 and 70 don't have oil injection so
    they must be a fairly old design. The 1700 Capri Bowrider looks good in
    the catalogue but you can only get it with the Force engine and I am
    put off by it.
    
    Many thanks
    
    Richard.

================================================================================
Note 925.1                Address for Dory maufacturer                    1 of 1
DNEAST::OKERHOLM_PAU                                  8 lines  28-OCT-1991 08:44
                          -< At least I'm consistant >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard,
	There have been many discussions about Force outboards in this file
already. I'm sure with a little research you can find them. 
	I have stated my opinion many times before and it hasn't changed. I
feel that Force is an inferior engine. Their designs are out of date and
they are built with economy first and quality second.

Paul

    Powerboat Reports just did a Bayliner owner survey and as a sanity
    check against this file, it corresponds very closely to the consensus
    in the previous notes (we could sell copies of this file to help
    the DEC bottom line :-).
    
    In general.
    
    - Lot of boat for the money
    
    - No disastrous structural problems but fit & finish are second rate
      and most components come from "Class B" suppliers.
    
    - Most people had lots of little problems.
    
    - OMC engines used in 1986-1989 timeframe are particularly bothersome.
    
    - Quality control better in recent years
    
    - Quality better on bigger models, especially Motoryacht series.
    
    - High rate of depreciation in first few years

    One thing worth mentioning is that the majority of people who are
    sucked into a bayliner are first time buyers and don't have any
    basis on which to compare the quality of their boats to. 
    
    

    Bayliner is not C/G approved. Chek out the C/G tag on the boat and 
    compare with aney outher brand.

    To the best of my knowledge, there is no such think as "CG approval"
    for recreational boats.

    I bought a used 24 ft Bayliner (1985) this past spring. Since then
    I have used it every weekend in Buzzards bay from Cutty to P town in 
    all kinds of seas. I have had boats of all kinds (32ft and less) since
    I was 16 years old (I'm now 48). I can't say enough about my Bayliner.
    A lot of the comments re. quality ie. stainless etc is true HOWEVER
    the boat is solid, sea worthy and dependable and I can live with
    the MINOR issues. I have the Volvo out drive, and I'll tell ya that
    its got to be the best in the business, in my opinion.
    Bottom line Best boat for the money and when and if I upgrade to a
    larger boat, it will be a Bayliner 
    A very very happy Bayliner owner
    
    George Shaw

    One should always keep the engine/outdrive seperate from the
    boat. I have a Grady White which I love but I wish I had
    a merc instead of an OMC i/o. Actually the engine is great also
    it that damn cobra drive I could live without.
    
    I hope you get my point.
    Bruce

    Moved by moderator. Also see note 632 for dealer info.
    
================================================================================
Note 1024.0               Info needed: Bayliner Trophy                No replies
TOLKIN::LANGELIER                                    19 lines   6-OCT-1992 10:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Over the last year or so, I must have looked at hundreds of boats,
    have attended 4 shows and still haven't made a decision as to what
    kind of boat I would like to own - UNTIL THIS PAST WEEKEND.
    
    I was fishing with some friends in Lake Ontario this weekend, and
    happened across a Bayliner Trophy and completely fell in love with
    it.  I am looking for just a fishing boat and not a pleasure craft
    or skiing boat.
    
    Can someone help me out with an address for Bayliner's headquarters,
    as I would like to call and get catalogs, options books, and local
    dealer info???
    
    Also, does anyone have one? And, comment as to their reliability 
    and overall evaluation..
    
    Thanks ---  Dave  ---   TOLKIN::LANGELIER or DTN 225-6718
    

    re.88 there is a good worit-up in the July issue of Boating on the
    Trophy. They basiclly say its a good deal and you get alot for the
    Money. I have a Bayliner and agree you do get alot for the money.
    as far as the address is con concerened Bayliner is located in
    Seatle Washington under the name of USA Marine. 
    The address is Bayliner Marine Corp., Dept. B, Box 24467, Seatle, WA
    98124 tel (206)435-5571
    
    Good Luck
    
    George Shaw

    For a dissenting opinion, read one of the recent issues of powerboat
    reports (a publication likely to be *much* more objective - how do you
    think "Boating" would react to the largest builder in the country, US
    Marine, pulling its ads?)
    
    The article was a combination of an owner survey and their own
    inspection.  Bayliners in general got high marks for value for money
    but very poor marks on fit and finish and resale value.  
    
    In particular, the Trophy series had the lowest overall ranking in the
    owner survey (compared with Bayliner's other lines).
    
    I can get you a copy of this article if you wish.
    
    Now having said that, and also thinking about buying a serious fishing
    boat, and having looked at 2502 and 2302 Trophys at the Bayside Boat
    Show yesterday, it was hard to ignore the fact that the
    Grady/Whaler/Mak/etc boats were *75%* more expensive.   
    
    Another thing that's hard to ignore is what seems to be an unbelievable
    level of unbundling on the high end fishing boats (things like seat
    cushions!).  Probably by the time you add in everything Bayliner
    already includes you might even be up to *twice* as expensive.
    
    Can Trophys be that bad?  Can the high end boats be that good?

    Jim, I agree with you comments re. fit and finish etc, I have a
    Bayliner 24ft Cirera (sp) Sunbridge, so I consider myself qualified to
    comment. The Bayliner is seaworthy,(I won't get carried away and say I
    would take it out in 12ft seas) and dependable, and that to me, living
    on Buzzards By is very important. And besides, the type of boating I do
    I can't justify in my mind spending the big bucks on the equivelant
    size Waler etc.... I love my marriage :)
    
    George "good, better, or best" Shaw 

	Moved by moderator
    	------------------
              <<< VICKI::SIE$DATA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Powerboats >-
================================================================================
Note 1123.0                   Bayliner any good!!!                    No replies
ASABET::LEBLANC                                      11 lines  27-OCT-1993 12:54
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Anyone know anything about Bayliner and ocean boating?
    
    We are looking into purchasing one and need to know if it can withstand
    ocean boating.  If not what is a good brand to purchase for this type
    of boating.
    
    Info can be forwarded to me or replied to this message
    Denise LeBlanc @MLO
    ASABET::LEBLANC
    DTN 223-3690
    

    I used to have a Bayliner and the only comment is that the hull isn't
    particularly deep, which makes for a rough ride.  Have you thought about
    a Larson?  I switched to one and have been much happier. 

    Denise, I don't think that you have supplied enough info for anybody to
    offer an educated opinion.  I'm sure some of the larger Bayliners would
    be great ocean going boats or at least sheltered harbor boats.  There
    are so many Bayliners starting at small bowriders suatable only for
    fresh water use on up to live aboards that most Decies couldn't afford.
    What size are you looking at, where do you intend to keep it or do you
    plan on trailering, etc.  Inquiring minds need to know.
    Wayne

    We are looking for a 24 to 28 foot boat that we can sleep 4 people with
    a head, galley, Mercruser (IO) for mostly pleasure.  We have a moring
    in the Merrimack river and want to do week long and week end trips from
    the Merrimack along the cost.  We will do a little (and I do mean very
    little fishing) only if friends would like, but this is not of great
    interst to us at this time.  The boat will not be trailered as we have
    a winter storage area on the merrimack, however it will sit on a
    trailer during this winter storage for convience.  We have heard that
    Bayliner is not a strong ocean (hull) boat but it seems to be in our
    price range.  What would someone suggest instead of this line and
    please not a Larson or Wellcraft. Thanks for your input.
    Denise
    

    I had a 24' Suncruiser that slept4/6.  Used it mostly to go out into
    Boston Harbor and arround, but did go up the coast to Salem etc, and
    down to the Cape.  Had it out is some very bad weather, including
    some small boat warning weather.  Never had a structural problem, had
    it for five years.                            

    You see plenty bayliners in the range around the north shore.
    probably will take more than you can. just know your limits.
    Or look for a slightly used boat with a better name to take
    the edge off the price of buying new.
    
    Bruce

    In all fairness to Bayliner and every other boat brand. I've never
    heard of a boat 'breaking' with normal pleasure use because it was not
    made well enough.
    
    				Kenny

    
    
    Kenny can you say 
    
    
    CHRIS CRAFT  AND OCEAN YACHTS...
    
    
    JIm

    
      I'm interested.
    
    			Kenny

    
    both these companies have been that have literally cracked in half
    
    due to poor construction. i have not heard of a bayliner doing this.
    
    bayliners are usually less expensive, its a pretty basic boat.
    JIm

I have been seriously looking at the Bayliner 25' Trophy.  Does anyone have any
information on this boat, good, bad all comments welcome.  I realize the 
reputation of the Bayliner, but have heard good things since Brunswick bought
them out.  I like the looks of the boat, the price is certainly good 40k less
then the 25' grady, and it's the size I'm looking for.

What about the seaworthiness?  It's a deep v with 20 degree deadrise.
The weight is 4700# with twin 150hp outboards, is this too light?

Stability at anchor or while drift fishing?

I'm not too worried about resale value as I plan on keeping it a while.

I realize it's not a Grady, Mako, or other well known brand, but its a lot 
less $$$.

I'm going to take one for a seatrial as soon as one is in the water.

I plan on using it for all kinds on Ocean fishing and the occasional weekend
overnight cruise.  Will go to Stellwagon and Jefferies as well as the shoreline
for stripers.

The biggest concerns that I have are stability in a good sea (it does get nasty
fast out there) and minimal roll at rest.

They have been making this boat for 4-5 years, has anyone been on one or know
anyone that has one.

Thanks,

Gordon (who's-going-to have a new boat this year of some kind)

OK, for now lets talk about the boats specifics, not the mfgr.

first of, deep v's are usally good when it gets rough, they tend to 

cut thru, however as a stable platform not so good, they tend to

roll, which can making them hard to stand up in.

Weight certainly has a lot to do with the ride, #4700 is on the light

side, but to keep the cost down they lightened it up.

If you buy it, you might have to pick your days more carefully,

i'm not saying it will fall apart, most boats can take more than

you can.


How about something used, (i'm guessing this is a new boat)

they are a lot of good buys around, a 5 or 6 year old boat

may cost the same as this.  Maybe????

The boats I have been looking at are new.  I want a 25'-26' sport fisherman
style boat with a 9'+ beam.  These wide beam boats have only been made for the
past 5-6 years and the most of the used ones are really used.  I don't want to
spend 30k+ and then put another 10k+ in new outboards.

The wide beam boats in this size are advertized as being much more stable than 
8' boats.  The reaally have a deep v with reverse chines for stability.

The weight worries me.  The grady weighs 5500 without engines and the others
are around 5000 some with engines some without.

I pick and choose my days anyways.  I don't go offshore if there's 3-4' waves
predicted.  However, it does kick up fast and I want something under me that I
can trust.

Thanks for the input.
Gordon