Conference vicki::boats

    It sounds like you've got a bad solenoid in the lower end.  Before
    digging into it, check the wiring and make sure it's got the proper
    voltage on each wire for shifting into forward.  It could be something
    as simple as a pinched wire.
    
    See note 681 for a few comments on electric shift lower units.
    You'll notice there are some differing points of view - I think 
    that repairing them is not for the faint of heart, but a few other
    noters feel they're not that hard to fix.  In either case, I'd
    get the shop manual first if you decide to give it a go...
    
    Rick

    Rick,
    
    Thanks for the quick reply.  I will definitely check the voltage before
    I get into the lower unit.  I checked 681.* and it looks like a
    nightmare maybe.  Anyone ever got into a lower unit on a EVINRUDE 115
    hp.??
    
    Thanks,
    
    Glenn

    It couldn't be the prop slipping on it's hub could it?  Glenn said the
    first time he kicked it it acted like it was in nuetral until it
    eventually got up to speed (?)  But then reverse works fine.  Hmmmm..
    
    Since this is a selectric shift, can't the forward/reverse wires be
    switched to check the solenoids?
    
    Doug 

    
    
    There really areen't any solenoids- there are electromagnets in the
    lower unit that operate a arather unusual clutch assembly- one for
    forward , one for reverse. The check is simple:
    
    1. check the two leads coming from the loweer unit with the ignition
    on, mtor not running. check for voltage on each lead with the gear
    shift in forward (lead "a" to ground should read +12v, lead"b"=0 V)
    with the gear shift in reverse "a" should be ov, "b" should be +12V
    In neutral, both leads should be 0V.
    
    2.If this checks ok, go to step 3. If not ok, (you could have 0,0 in
    forward), then find out why you are not getting voltage to the leads.
    The switches in the throttle/shift control apply 12v to either the
    forward or reverse leads to energize the electric clutches in the lower
    unit.If this isn't happening- trace back to the control box to find out
    why the power is not getting through-usually a bad microswitch or a
    broken lead, or a bad connector.
    
    3. If the voltage checks out OK,, then a lead may be open.
    TURN OFF THE IGNITION
    Disconnect the leads
    Check the resistance of the leads
    (if you don't turn off the power, youVOM will probbably incinerate
    itself)
    
    1. if one of the leads is open, teardown time
    2. If none of the leads is open, you prbbaly have a bad clutch assembly
     o Get a Manual
     oStudy the manual
     ostudy it again
      
     You ill need to be very careful taking this unit apart. It is very easy
    to break off wires, etc. You may also need some special tools. If the
    engine has spent much time in Salt water- you may want to take it to a
    dealer (god forbid at this time of year!)
    
     Good luck. Properly maintained and not abused, these are smooth
    shifting units, but need the proper maintenence.Parts are VERY
    expensive, since the electric shift units are no longer produced.
    
    
     Good luck- It may ber, (and often is) something as simple as a loose
    or broken connection/wire or a bad microswitch.

    A similar thing happened to me last summer.  I had a 1971 50hp Evinrude
    and I noticed that the more I used it the more that the motor would 
    hesitate going into forward.  Reverse worked fine.  
    
    I brought it to a marine dealer that I trust and they indicated that
    there is some sort of electrical mechanism in the lower unit that
    was never a good design but was typical in the 70's vintage evinrude
    engines.  It could be rebuilt but it was going to cost about $500 to
    do the job and they indicated that it would be a recurring problem.
    
    I hope this helps.  I wound up re-powering the boat with a much
    newer engine since I had alot of trouble with that engine last 
    year.
    
    

    Your original note said "..cleaned up/changed oil/plugs..." I hope you
    used the correct oil for this lower unit. There is very good
    information here to help you thru this problem. Keep us posted!
    
    Wayne

    Dick,
    
    I will check this when I get off today.  I will update in the morning. 
    Thanks a lot for this info.  If I could get the manual maybe I could
    have known this.  Makes sense.  
    
    Later,
    
    Glenn

    
    I am very familiar with electric shifts and am one of those sicko 
    types ;-} that actually likes them. There are two types, off-neutral
    and off-forward. (off meaning that there is no current to either
    selonoid) 
    
    First: The type of oil used for an electric shift is different from
    your run-of-the-mill standard shift. Double check this and if you have
    used the wrong oil in the gearcase - change it. (HIGH-VIS is for 
    standard and PREMIUM is for electric)
    
    Assuming your shifter is the off-forward type:    
    
    The gearcase should engage when the motor is off. You can check
    this by trying to turn the prop by hand - it should not freewheel.
    
    If it doesn't freewheel when when off:
    
    then you need to find the source of the current keeping the solenoid 
    open when the motor is on (pinched wires,wrong shift switch in controls?).  
    I would suspect a pinched wire since you mentioned that the prop
    'kicks' when you turn the motor off.
    
    Since reverse worked the following shouldn't be a problem and is just
    hear for information:
    
    Also, try to spin the prop by hand with lots of force. If you can move 
    the prop but the shaft does not move then the prop needs a new clutch.
    
    If it does freewheel when off:
    
    then you need to replace the solenoid in the gearcase. Most of these 
    selonoids are no longer made and can be quite expensive. The electric 
    shift gearcases are no harder to work on then the standard shifts - the 
    mechanics just like getting more money for the work.
    
    If your gearcase is off-neutral then you need to activate the forward
    selonoid (apply current) and see is the prop will spin. If so, the
    selonoid needs to be replaced or you have a short in the wiring.
    
    If you change the oil on schedule and before each storage season an
    electric shift gearcase will be as trouble free as any other.
    They are only trouble prone if abused (read - long oil change
    intervals, stored with contaminated oil)
    
    Good luck,
          
    Doug.
    
    
    

    
    My favorite way to fix a lower end of an older outboard it to go
    boatyard hopping. Parts motors go for between $35 and $75 dollars.
    If you're selective about which motor you buy you can get a full
    functioning lower unit plus a whole mess of spare parts that you'll
    never need (until after you get rid of the parts :-). 
    
    It's always work for me.
    
    Good luck,
    Doug.

The best advice is to switch the wires that go to the lower unit. If you now
have forward where reverse should be, you have a bad wire/switch/control. If 
you only have reverse where forward should be, you have a bad shift coil. It
works by energizing a magnet which pulls the respective gear to the shaft to
engage the prop.

Be careful that you use the correct oil in this unit, as 90 weight will cause
the spring return when you shift out to be sluggish, which can result in being
in forward and reverse at the same time.

I have a 190 electric shift I/O, and previously had an 85 HP electric outboard.
Both of these units were extremely reliable and easy to maintain. NEVER shift
above idle, and it'll be fine. Be careful who rebuilds you shift assembly, and
good luck. With a 1978 unit, it's probably time for an overhaul anyway.  Mine
is a 76 and already has 60+ hours on this latest go round without a burp.


...Larry

          
>The best advice is to switch the wires that go to the lower unit. If you now
>have forward where reverse should be, you have a bad wire/switch/control. If 
>you only have reverse where forward should be, you have a bad shift coil. It
>works by energizing a magnet which pulls the respective gear to the shaft to
>engage the prop.
    
    This is dependant on the type of lower end. If it is an
    'off-forward' unit then switching the wires will put the gearcase 
    in neutral when shifted into reverse (read: voltage releases the prop
    shaft).
    
    In the early days voltage had to be applied to either forward or
    reverse coil in order to engage the propshaft. 
    
    In later days it was decided that, for fail-safe purposes, forward 
    should require no voltage to engage so that, in the case of an 
    electrical failure, the motor would still get you home.
    
    Doug. 

    Never received the manual I needed, but...  I used the earlier replies
    to get a mindset of what was happening on this problem.  Long story
    short, the electric shifter has two poles that get thrown/lifted when
    going from any gear to forward.  One of the poles wasn't being lifted
    due to a broke ceramic?? part under the siwtch housing.  I called
    Evinrude dealer and he wanted $73.65 for this switch.  No,no,no,  I
    told him.  He let me go through his scrap/junk parts and I found two
    switches.  I took them both.  One of them was broke in reverse, and the
    other worked fine.  I guess someone got shafted with that good one. 
    Anyway, I put in switch and it works fine.  Minor problem... I can go
    from forward to reverse when in very low idle, but can't go into
    neutral from forward or reverse without applying more idle to
    physically get it into neutral.  I think what I need to now do is to
    get in the middle of the lake, since I don't have a muffler ears?? and
    adjust the idle to the neutral.  Does that make sense???  Anyway thanks
    a lot for the quick replies.  I have definitely learned more than I
    ever wanted to know about shifters.  
    
    Now I gotta a boat, I will visit this conference more often.
    
    Thanks,
         
    Glenn

RE: .12

Glad to hear it was just the switch and not the lower unit.

I'm not sure what you mean by "applying more idle", is that faster or 
slower?  8^)  In any case, definitely put it in the water and take it 
for a good cleanout run before doing the final idle speed adjustment,
and then do the adjustment in the water.  You can't get a really accurate
idle setting using the earmuffs, most outboards will idle 2-300 rpm faster
on the muffs due to reduced exhaust backpressure. 

>> I gotta a boat, I will visit this conference more often.
   
By all means!

Rick

    Well I just bought a glastron boat with a 28 H.P. evinrude speed twin
    motor. Last night I was working on it and noticed that when I tried to
    shift into forward, it would chatter and not go into gear. This is a
    mechanical type shifted not electric. It goes into reverse fine but
    not forward. If I turn the engine off and put it in forward, the prop
    does not spin so it is engaging. Also if I shift from reverse to
    forward while it's running, it sometimes does engage. I checked
    the adjustment of the cables and everything seems to be in
    order. Any comments or suggestions?? Is there an easy fix to this or
    will it have to come apart?? All inputs are greatly appreciated.

    Gus

    Gus,
    The old OMC 28's and 35's were famous for wearing out the "clutch
    dogs" in the lower unit.  The clutch dog slides back and forth on
    the prop shaft, with a set of fingers on either side of it, and is
    controlled by the shift cable.  The fingers interlock with another
    set of fingers on the forward and reverse gears.  Pushed in one 
    direction, it engages the forward gear, in the other direction it 
    engages the reverse gear.
    
    What happens is that the sharp edges on these fingers tend to wear
    or break away, causing them to slip.  About 99% of the wear is on 
    the forward side of the clutch dog.  Since the dog is reversible, 
    common practice is to disassemble the lower unit and reverse the 
    clutch dog assembly.  If your's has already been reversed at some 
    point, this won't help of course.  Again, try calling Charlie Whitney,
    he probably has one.
    
    Rick 
    

     Having had several of these old OMC's, it is the old "clutch dog"
    symptom. IF it gets real bad, the wirn dog will round off the  
    mating portion on the forward gear- so fix it quick!. Reversing the
    clutch dog is a quick fix, but I would invest in a new one, rather than
    have to  to the trouble of tearing dwn the lower unit again.
    
     Dick
    

    Thanks for the replies. I have a replacement clutch dog as well as the
    drive gear and will be installing them shortly. Now for it to shift
    properly, what rpm should it be running at??? I think this could have
    been part of the problem too. I can't seem to get it to a low idle.
    
    Gus

    Gus - The engine should be running as slowly as possible when you shift
    and you should shift quickly to minimize the time the dogs are just
    touching but not fully engaged. How slow is slow? Just barely running
    is wonderful. The slower the engine is running and the better you shift
    it, the longer the dogs will last.
    
    					Kenny

    
    a lot of people override the switch that stops starting in gear. 
    we stop the motor select forward or reverse then start.
    this greatly reduces wear on dog clutches etc.
     NOT recomended by the factory.
    also im talking about race boats with large pitch props and larger 
    than ususal hp.
    
    the other reg

I've been having some problems with a '73 65hp Evinrude outboard:

    - usually starts up and runs OK when I launch; occasionally hard to start
    - after running for a while and after the motor is turned off, whether it 
      stalled from trolling too slow or whether I just turned it off, it's 
      often hard to re-start.
    - once I get it started, usually setting choke to manual, it then has the	
      shift problem I've seen described here, but in both reverse and forward.
      I go to shift, but the rpms seem too high, the motor clicks like it's
      trying to shift, but it doesn't engage.  
    - motor *always* starts, shifts, & runs great in my backyard using the
      earmuffs w/ hose!

I described the problem to a friend who asked the last time I got my cables 
lubed, because that's probably it.  I said never, never heard of it.   I've 
had the boat for about 6 years, and the cables do look like they are in 
rough shape.

Could this problem be due to the cables ?  Do the shifter and throttle cables
need to be lubed periodically ?  How ?   Any ideas ?


Thanks
Ken

I had a 74 140hp Johnson that was a bear to start at times.
It was a cable and linkage problem. The linkage and control arms
on the engine were worn and the cables were also in poor
shape. I replaced the cables and tried to adjust them
without much success. I had a dealer set it up but that
only worked for a season or so. I decided to replace the
engine (big Bucks) when I was off shore about 7 miles and
had trouble starting it. I've maintained the new engine myself
for the past 9 years without any problems. I lube the engine
and cable every season. A little PM goes a long way.
Jim

OMC specs on control cables is as follows.

MOTOR NOT RUNNING!!

	The mark you make is on the inner cable where the plastic outer 
	stops.
	
*	Place shifter in the full forward wide open throttle position
	and make a mark on the inner shift cable end [at motor] with a marker.

	Then place shifter in full reverse wide open throttle and make a mark
	again  on the inner shift cable.

	remove the cable end from motor and measure distance between
	marks.

	SPECS FOR OMC AND MERC ARE.....2 7/8" TO 3 1/8" from mark to mark.

	If your cable travels greater than 3 1/8" then most likely the cable is 
	bad.  You should confirm that the motor will shift with the cable 	
	removed and in the water first to make sure the problem is not
	with the motor shift linkage or the lower gear case.

	If you have any other questions please email me 

					Jack

I should have told you to pull the shift cable off the motor first before making
your marks and doing the full forward and full reverse measurements.  OOPPss!!! 
[lack of sleep!!!]