Conference vicki::boats

>> How does one fog it? What do you use? 

With the boat still in the water or with a flush adapter attached,
remove the airbox in front of the carb and start the motor.  Squirt
in Marvel Mystery oil or OMC's spray can of fogging oil, until
your neighbors are ready to call the fire department.  With the 
motor still pouring smoke, shut it off.  The motor is now fogged.
Don't forget to reinstall the airbox.


>> Whats the process for draining carbs?

My OMC carbs have a large drain plug at the bottom of each one.  Don't 
know about your Force, but any drain plugs should be obvious.


>> Squirted the hubs with wd-40 and skid wrapped those as well.)

This is not enough.  Remove the hubs, clean and inspect the innards,
regrease everything, and assemble it with new seals and cotter pins.
And while you've got the wheels off, smear the wheel studs with a coat
of grease.  Many people do the hubs in the Spring.  This gives any 
accumulated water all winter to work at rusting your hubs.  Definitely 
do the hubs in the Fall.  

Some other things you didn't mention:
-Change the lower unit gear oil, use the factory recommended type.  Easy
 job, but should be done in the fall for the same reason as the wheel
 bearings.
-Grease the trailer winch, tongue jack, and the boat's steering cable.
-Some people use a fuel stabilizer for storage.  My off-season is only
 4 months, so I've never used it and never has a problem.
-Allow the outboard motor to rest in the full vertical position for a
 while for the cooling system to fully drain.
-Remove the battery and store in a cool dry place.
-Install new spark plugs in the Spring, *after* all the fogging oil
 has burned off.

>> I would love to sit in a marina and watch them 'winterize' an engine 
>> 'of today', but the money they get for doing it would probably pi$$
>> me off when I saw it is easy. so.. they don't let you watch....!

If you're used to winterizing your old boat, the new one should be a
piece of cake!  As you say, that's why they won't let you watch at the
dealer.  They want your money!  You'll save a small fortune doing it 
yourself, and you'll have the piece of mind of knowing it's done right.

Now sit back and wait for a deluge of replies, winterizing is usually
a lively topic!

Rick W.

    I Don't want to talk about it...
    D.W.
    

	Thanks Rick W.!!!

		You make a real good point about the hubs and wheel bearings.
		I too, always did it in the spring....The other 'stuff' is
		understood by me but could be great value to others out there.
		 

		I have an on-board fuel tank (21 gallons) should I use the 
		stablizer or pump it out?  I always drained my 
		portable tanks.. I suspect I'll run her til end of october
		(foliage on lake is great!) and dump her back in in april.

		Also, Do you run the engine dry (of fuel) or is draining 
		carbs sufficient. Again, I used to run 'em dry after draining 
		fuel pump..

		Can't wait to hear from the rest of you folk out there!

re: .2  dw... thanks for nuthin 8^)

I hear you though...

    
    RE: .2 & .4
    
    Just cuz I talking about it doesn't mean I'm ready to do it!
    I demonstrated the old boat to its new owner last December 3,
    and launched the new boat on April 15th of this year.  We're
    talking New Hampshire here, too.  Had to steer around the ice
    in December, and launch day in April was 45 degrees, with clouds
    and sprinkles.  Just ducky, Right Rick Suter? 
        
    Rick W

    But seriously folks, The reason for fogging the carb(s) is to get
    the lubrication down to the bearings. (condensation=rust) In my
    outboard days, I use to disconnect the gas-line, start the engine
    (with the water-muffs of course, and start fogging the carb. The
    engine then begins to run out of fuel, as the RPMs increase, and
    white smoke all over the neighborhood.  Then, a squirt of mystery
    oil in each cylinder, turn the flywheel by hand a couple of times
    to move the lube around,(the battery is out by now, right?) and
    your done with the powerhead. Don't forget to close the air intake
    with tape (located up front/under the cowl) One year, I had a family
    of chipmunks living in the carb of my V-4 Evinrude. Fortunately,
    the choke was on/ butterfly closed.  Mothballs scattered about in
    the boat seem to help as well. 
    I don't want to talk about this anymore...
    D.W.  ;^)

    As .1 mentioned in an outboard or outdrive, it's very
    important to replace the oil in the lower unit. If any water
    has found it's way it, and it freezes, it can crack the drive
    unit casting.  A very expensive problem.

The minimum:

1. Add conditioner to the tank(s) in the mixture recommended on the conditioner
   container (MDR, STA-BIL, OMC 2+2, etc.).

2. Fill the tank(s) with gas. (No air space for condensation)

3. Fog the engine as previously discussed. (OMC and MERC sell fogging oil.) 

4. Mystery oil in each spark plug hole is okay, turning flywheel by hand..

5. CRC-66 over everything (a bit more oil than WD-40).

6. Change lower unit lube. 

7. Bring battery(s) in, top off with DISTILLED water, charge, clean, put out of
   the way, up off the cement floor.

8. Tilt engine down (to ensure that all water has drained).


Recommended:

1. Treat the teak.

2. Wax the entire boat.

3. Non-toxic antifreeze in the bilge and all plumbing.

4. Stainless steel cleaner on all railings, rod holders, etc.

5. Remove depthfinder, fishfinder, loran, radar, radio(s).

6. Remove all liquid cleaners (windex, rain-x, 409, Mr. Clean, etc)

7. Remove the prop(s) and coat the shaft(s) with anti-seize compound.

8, Clean all plexi rollup windows with non-lemon Pledge.

9. Clean all vinyl-coated canvas with Armorall cleaner (or 409, etc.), treat 
   with Armorall Protectant, lube zippers with silicon grease.

re: .2 >  2. Fill the tank(s) with gas. (No air space for condensation)

          I totally agree...A friend of mine had a good point though....
    He had topped off his tanks in the Fall right to the tippy-di top.
    In the Spring when the hot sun warmed the fiberglass hull, the gas
    expanded and oused (sp?) out of the vents and down the side of the
    hull causing the decals to come off and some bottom paint to
    deteriorate. 
    
  > 5. CRC-66 over everything (a bit more oil than WD-40).

    Is this an oil? My manual mentions a silicone spray to be used on
    everything under the engine cowling of the outboard.
    
    CRC seems to offer a whole array of marine engine/electrical products.
    

    
    Just move to a warmer climate, and ski all winter like I did
    last winter.
    
    Rob
    

    For my grandmother's party boat, all I did was pull the boat up on the
    beach, tilt the engine, then pulled the spark plugs and filled the
    cylinders with oil, then drained the lower unit and filled the lower
    unit thing with lower unit oil, along with a bunch of other places I
    just squirted the stuff.  
    
    Then I covered the engine with trash bags and a coffee can over the
    prop area and left it.  Mickey Mouse, you say?  Well, it started this
    spring and ran all summer.  Piece of cake.  
    
    BTW, Let's try to stay away from winterization for another month.  I'd 
    still like to think I might be able to ski some more before they pull the 
    dam. :-)
    
    Steve

                      -<It's early but !!!!>-
    If you own an I/O let not the forget the C/V joint in the lower
    unit, this is accessable on the Merc by the removal of 6 nuts,
    be sure to have a fresh gasket kit and the right grease, they 
    also say that you need alignment tool to put it back. This is my
    2rd year doing it and I did it with out the tool. If I am right
    the tool help to tell if the rear mounts are wearing, I take
    measurements each year. No change yet.
    
        It takes 2 people to do it.

I purchased a small O/B this past spring (2 1/2 HP Nissan).

Any special care required over the winter?  Local dealer does winterizing 
for $29.95...

Thoughts welcome

Carl

    you can extract all you need from replies .1-.12
    
    jim

I'll bet you can do it for less than $10, 
  do it when you want to do it,
    not have to drop it off when they're open, 
      not have to pick it up when it's convenient for them, 
        and the paint on the back of the engine won't be scratched from
        their shop floor.
        
        And with the money that's left over you can buy new spark plugs
        and a case of St. Pauli Girl.

    Anybody heard of yet another aerosol to be used during Winterization
    of OUTBOARD engines that's suppose to 'decarbonize' (or reduce the
    amount of carbon) around the rings of the pistons.?
    
    The technical explanation (that was given to me) was that a 2-Stroke
    engine (by its nature) accumulates varing degrees of carbon build-up
    in the head, and on top on the piston..., and in the piston/ring
    area. Furthermore, I was informed that any carbon build-up behind
    the rings in the area where the rings fits around the piston, can
    force the rings to expand ever-so-slightly...over time causing
    premature wear to the cylinder walls..........
    
    Sounds obvious-----if the rings can't 'relax' around the piston
    as designed then they MAY be exerting abit more pressure against
    the cyclinder walls than if the carbon wasn't there....%#$!#???
                             ? ? ? ? ?
    Any TRUTH to this De-carbonizer being part of the winterization
    process.?.. And is this carbon accumulated on the newer outboard engines
    a problem? (over time?) I remember de-carbonizing my old 2-Stroke
    motor cycle engine some 14 years ago but somehow I think 2-Strokes have
    come a long way and somehow I can't picture myself pullin' the head
    off my outboard engine even when it gets to be 3 or 4 years old.

    /MArk

re                 <<< Note 517.16 by HAZEL::YELINEK "WITHIN 10" >>>
>                -< don't they burn cleaner than they use to... >-

	Yep, but mostly due to synthetic oils - which "vaporize" more 
than they "burn", see a ferREAL chemist for details (-:

>    The technical explanation (that was given to me) was that a 2-Stroke
>    engine (by its nature) accumulates varing degrees of carbon build-up
>    in the head, and on top on the piston..., and in the piston/ring
>    area. Furthermore, I was informed that any carbon build-up behind

	Yep, they used to.....

>    the rings in the area where the rings fits around the piston, can
>    force the rings to expand ever-so-slightly...over time causing
>    premature wear to the cylinder walls..........

	Seems unlikely, the ring is sprung outwards anyway, carbon 
build up in the ring groove was rare before synthetic oil, just about 
non existant now....

>	I remember de-carbonizing my old 2-Stroke
>    motor cycle engine some 14 years ago but somehow I think 2-Strokes have

	Me too, but outboards don't usually come apart as easily as a 
motorcycle, i.e. you can't (usually) just pop the head and then the 
jug (cylinder), scrape away and put it all back together in a couple 
of hours.  To get the pistons out its usually necessary to split the 
case halves, of course both halves are usually bolted to the casing 
that holds the drive shaft so that has to be separated - and the 
breaker plate is on the other damned end, so the flywheel has to be 
pulled, and on, and on, and on......

>    come a long way and somehow I can't picture myself pullin' the head
>    off my outboard engine even when it gets to be 3 or 4 years old.

	Its the oils that have come a long way, but I alrewady said 
	that.

	Reg	{Maybe they're tolerable these days, but I probably 
		won't have another one}

re .16:

Sounds like advertising hype and snake oil to me. There has to be some of 
clearance between the rings and the bottom of the ring grooves. I doubt 
there'd be enough carbon buildup to fill the gap. The rings would be more 
likely I think, to stick along their sides in the grooves. This ain't good, 
but it wouldn't case excessive cylinder wear (unless the piston sticks to the 
cylinder wall from all the hot combustion gases blowing by the rings). 

Besides, any carbon buildup is baked onto the rings at several hundred 
degrees. I doubt any aerosol spray safe enough to be used in a consumer 
product is going to be able to coat the rings sufficiently to dissolve the 
baked on carbon. And then where does the sludge go? Is this stuff spray on 
Easy-Off oven cleaner maybe?

re .18: >> Sounds like advertising hype and snake oil to me. 
  &.17
           Yea. Just as I suspected. When the technical explaination
    to some 'up until recently unknown phenomenon' begins to almost
    make some sense.....Its really Bull*. Not ever having winterized 
    a large outboard before....I needed a sanity check here in the file.
    
    There's still a few good days left in October!
    
    /MArk
    
    

J'ever try to clean off carbon deposits that have been burned on 
by combustion temperatures?  They're a b!+ch to clean off with a
grinder and a wire wheel.  I seriously doubt that any spray cleaner 
is going to do the job.  Maybe it'll work on the varnish buildup 
in the carb and 2 cycle crankcase, but no way in the combustion
chamber.

The way to avoid buildup on your rings is to prevent it from happening
in the first place.  Use a good quality oil!  One of the boating 
rags recently made a good argument for using the outboard manufacturer's
oil rather than aftermarket.  The aftermarket companies have no stake
in the warranty repairs or longevity of your motor.  In the worst case,
if you can prove the oil is defective they'll refund your money.  The
outboard manufacturers obviously have a greater interest.  Eating the
cost of warranty repairs caused by bad oil is a good incentive to make
sure their oil is of good quality.  

BTW: My '61 Evinrude 40 had a sticker on it stating that it required
     a 25:1 mix of either 2 cycle oil *OR* 30W!  As far as I could tell
     it hadn't had a major rebuild when I sold it last year.  With the
     improvements in oil, I was able to run it on a 50:1 mix of OMC oil.

Rick W.

Howdee gang... I have not winterized yet but appreciate
all the info you folks have offered. (I keep saying maybe next weekend in
hope I can still get some water sports in) I have a question about 
winterizing the bilge pump. Do you simply poor the Biodegradable anitfreeze
in the bilge and turn on the pump until it comes out? is this how its done?

Thanks!
	Roger
 

    Moved by moderator...   sigh, they start earlier every year!
    
================================================================================
Note 883.0           Help with winterizing my I/O this year.          No replies
BUFFER::KEYES                                         9 lines  23-JUL-1991 12:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I need some information form those who winterize thier own I/O's
    after the season. I have a place in Maine who normally winterizes 
    and sotres my boat for the winter. However this year I plan to 
    bring my boat home for certain reasons and felt I could possibly 
    do my own Maintnance this year. I can change the oil and filter and I
    have, however I need to know how to winterize since I never did this
    myself. I have a 4 cly Merc, water cooled I/O 165hp. any help out
    there???? Thanks!  Stan
    

    
    First suggestion!
    
    
    
    	Wait for winter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	Actually, the repies to this topic pretty much cover it...
    
    Rick

    Is it a closed cooling system or does raw water circulate directly
    through the motor?

    When I took my boat out of the water two seasons ago, I never expected
    to not be back in the following summer.  I added gas stabilizer to the
    tank on the day I took the boat out of the water.  For a number of
    reasons (relocated, new house, burnt out old tranny, etc.) the boat
    hasn't been back in the water since then.  Gas stabilizer is supposedly
    good for one year.  Should I take the carb off of the engine, drain it,
    and spray it with something?  The carb is obsolete and I had to send it
    out to Michigan to be rebuilt.  I don't want to have to do it again.
    Should I drain the gas tank now or in the spring?
    Thanks, Wayne

    
    MDR makes a gasoline refresher. Call Boat U.S. they can give
    you the number for MDR, hate to see you drain the gas, and
    then what are you gonna do with it.
    
    As for the carb, i would take it too a reputable rebuilder
    and have it dipped, they put it in a tank, when it comes
    out it looks brand new. they can tell if it needs any work.
    by all means unless your an expert don't mess with it.
    
    If you want the name of a reputable rebuilder call me
    at dtn 275-3743, i just had one completely rebuilt,
    what an amazing difference. Prior to the work, i had
    to pump the throttle about 4-6 times, (not uncommon
    for an inboard from what i've seen) then expect a stall
    and then it would run. After the work, move the throttle
    up a tad, hit the key.
    
    JIm.

    I like to drain the gas out completely.  I just use the gas
    in my car.  It always seems easier to get things started in 
    the spring with fresh gas.  

    Plus, I (like to hope) that I pick up the dirt and crude at
    the bottom of the tank by doing this, rather than having it
    happen when the boat is running and it might not be
    convienient.

    	- Lee

    re:517.26
    Jim, the reason that I had sent it out to Michigan two years ago was
    because no carb rebuilders around here had a rebuild kit for the 
    Carter ABD two barrel.  The guy out in Michigan specializes in 
    rebuilding antique marine carbs.  He is also Coast Guard certified
    to work on marine carbs.  Seeing that I supposedly have all new parts
    inside  (when I  first started the boat up after having the carb
    rebuilt it ran great!)  If you know of a local place (N.H. or Mass.,
    North Shore is best for me), I will take the carb to them.  It should
    only need a good cleaning, I hope.  I was going to drain the gas out
    and slowly mix it into my truck's tank.   When I first bought the 
    boat, it had sat for a couple of years without gas stabalizer.  The
    gas smelled like varnish.  I'm sure that is why the carb had gone bad
    because the engine had been totally rebuilt two years before I bought 
    it. The gas in the tank doesn't smell bad but I don't want to take 
    any chances.
    Thanks for the advise.
    Wayne

    This situation is certainly an "owners" option. 
    
    "BUT" i think you making a mistake by draining the fuel out
    for winter. YOU now have a nice humidity collector, and
    will wind up with moisture in your tank, creating another
    problem.
    
    Would seem to me that you might as well just leave things
    alone until spring, then drain the fuel, and have the 
    carb dipped.
    
    Next fall, lay up with a full tank, with preservative
    
    Its up to you, but i really feel that the problems we
    have are the ones we tend to CREATE.
    
    your choice,
    
    JIm.

My uncle pours in anti-freeze in his engine.  He feels that it helps minimize
corrosion.  Nothing I've ever read suggests that this is a good idea.

Comments?


tnx,

Chris

Chris

    Everyone i know puts anti-freeze in the block, those who 
    
    don't are the exception.  One thing you should know.
    
    The EPA outlawed the use of "prestone" types, you now
    
    have to use non-toxic types..
    
    What do you do???????????????????????
    
    JIm.

    MY OMC I/O manual gives specific instructions on draining the water and
    filling the block with antifreeze.
    
     BTW: The non-toxic anti-freeze is now cheaper than the Toxic stuff. I
    paid $4.00 per Gal at an RV place two weeks ago.

re                     <<< Note 517.31 by CSLALL::BORZUMATO >>>
>                             -< everyone does... >-

>    Everyone i know puts anti-freeze in the block, those who 
    
>    don't are the exception.  One thing you should know.

	OK, I'm exceptional !  (-:    I won't take exception to that.


	a)	I don't believe antifreeze will do anything for my 
		engine, certainly not $5 worth of "benefit" per year.

	b)	I'm never able to say for certain if/when a layup 
		period has begun, or if I'll be putting the boat back
		in the water within a week.  {especially on days like 
		last Feb 10th}

	c)	Just draining everything at the ramp has worked very 
		well so far.


	OK, so maybe a cast iron block will rust eventually if left 
damp and open for enough time over enough winters - condensation, etc.

	I expect to just  WEAR IT OUT  long before it has the
opportunity to rust out.   If some of the internal water passages thin
down by a few thousandths of an inch more each year, so what ? 

    
    THinning og the water passages is not the problem.That salt reidue on
    the iron block in the presence of air build up a nice scale that
    eventually plugs the water passages. I've seen a heck of a lot more
    engines and manifolds plugged up than I have corroded through in my 30+
    yrs of "messing around in boats". There are often little passages
    that don't get the water darined- and a cracked block is expensive. 
    
     A freind of mine had the same philosophy0- until one season, the water
    didn't drain from his manifolds for some reason- he spent $400 to 
    replace them- along with breaking a few studs and agida.
    
     But he saved $5 worth of anti freeze!
    
    

    
    There also is the argument of keeping the various seals moist if
    the block is filled with antifreeze.
    
    This spring I drained the antifreeze from the block and used it in the
    truck. A little hose inginuity was needed to capture the Prestone, but
    I'd say I got 95% of it.
    
    Rick
    
    PS. The other 5% must have evaporated Mr. EPA-Guy!

Another comment on draining fuel tanks:

Most boats have steel tanks, whether galvanized or otherwise plated.  An 
empty tank is a condensation machine, yes, and that condensation will seek 
out (perhaps even create) the tiniest paths to corrodable metal.  The 
potential risk of running a tank of treated 6-month-old fuel through your
engine is pretty small -- it's technology that's been in use for a long
time with no documented hassles.  But rust is unquestionably a problem;
even if your new-each-spring fuel filter captures it, the filter is then
that much more clogged in the first week of use that it otherwise would
be.  And if it doesn't catch it.... 

I winterized my o/b by running treated fuel through and then pulling the 
hose off to run it as dry as possible.  During the final run-up in rpm's, 
I'd hit the carb air intake with the spray from a can of fogging oil.  
After it died and cooled, I pulled the plugs and dropped a teaspoon or so
of the best 2-cycle oil into each cylinder, then turned it over about 
twice to cover the cylinder walls.  Plugs back in, and that was it.
Come spring it smoked and sputtered a bit for about five seconds, but ran
flawlessly thereafter.   Chances are the fogging oil did most of the 
benefit, but since my grandfather always got decades of regular use out of 
his o/b's with the oil-in-cylinder trick, I do it to feel good and enjoy 
my grandfather's memory.  It can't harm anything even if it doesn't really
get every nook and cranny in a horizontal piston, and it may do more than 
I think.

;-),  J.

    
    I have a question of winterizing an
    outboard. What besides draing the carbs
    and oiling the cylinder and changing the
    lower end fluid is there to do ??
    
    (First Boat Owner)
          Mark.
    
    

    
    i'm not here to upset memories of your grandfather.
    
    the fogging oil did all the preserving you needed,
    its the ash that does the preserving, not the oil,
    when you put the 2 cycle oil in the cylinder, you undo
    do what the fogging oil has done..
    
    JIm

    .37
    
    One thing extra that I do is to spray the entire engine with wd-40.  I
    read this somewhere and it keep corrosion down on external engine
    parts.
    
    Also spray all fuses with the stuff for the same reason.
    
    Gordon
    

    Be sure not to spray the engine with WD 40 or equivalent while it is 
    running if it is a breaker point ignition type engine.  Alot of the
    older engines use points are there are still alot of them around.
    
    A nice flaming torch effect can be achieved when spraying in the
    flywheel area.... I know, I tried it and achieved the torch effect
    to my utter suprise at the time. 
    
    Jeff

    RE: .37
    
    Just about everything that needs to be done to winterize an outboard
    has been covered here and in note 159.  Read all the replies in both
    notes and you'll be ready to tackle it.
    
    Rick who_winterized_yesterday_and_is_still_bummin'....

    Between what the owners manual/service manual suggests on WINTERIZING and
    what the marina's offer to do for a fee.....I figure I cover most bases.  
    
    Here's what I do : 			(Yamaha 150 HP V6)
    
          BEFORE PULLING BOAT

          - DECARBONIZE ENGINE (Aerosol sprayed into carb throats, a few
    	       brands exist such as 'Engine Tune' and 'Engine Decarbonizer' 
          - ADD FUEL CONDITIONER TO FUEL TANK
          - DISCONNECT OIL PUMP LINKAGE PROVIDING A 50:1 MIX even when
    	    running at minimum throttle. (I have an oil injection system)
    	  _ RUN THE ENGINE  (Usually my last cruise in Ipswich Bay MA.)
          - HAUL BOAT & TOP OFF FUEL TANK ON THE WAY HOME
    			(Happened Sat. ....time to put 'er to sleep)
    		
    I stop by the car wash on the way home.  They have a bay w/ 1400? PSI
    water spray.  I rinse the entire rig down trailer an all from a
    distance....The high pressure comes in handy removing the green slime
    and seaweed off the side of the hull at the paint line.  I hold the
    spray approx. 2 inches away.  Cuts the stuff clear off the hull.  
    TIP : Spray your teak swim platform with a high pressure water spray
    and it brightens the teak without the use of nasty chemicals.  Mine 
    looks like *new* again.  Beats using the teak brightener or the other
    2/3 step processes which tend to raise the grain quite abit.
    
    Once the rig was backed into its resting place I took a natural bristle
    brush dipped in a solution of "ON OFF" hull cleaner and ran it down
    both sides of the hull...rinsed it off within one minute and no more
    brown stain.  This is potent stuff.  (Use gloves and glasses).
    While I haven't began the following...this sums it up.
    
          STORAGE PROCEDURE

          * FLUSH & FOG ENGINE :
             - REMOVE PROP FOR SAFETY
             - REMOVE ENGINE COWLING & SILENCER COVER
             - INSTALL EARMUFFS FROM FRONT OF ENGINE,
               ATTACH HOSE & TURN ON H2O
             - START ENGINE AND RUN AT FAST IDLE FOR ~15 MIN.
             - WHEN ENGINE IS WARM BEGIN FOGGING OIL IN EACH
               CARBURETOR THROAT
             - TURN OFF ENGINE AND REINSTALL SILENCER COVER
             - REMOVE SPARK PLUGS AND GIVE 10 SEC. SPRAY OF OIL IN
               EACH CYLINDER
             - GREASE PLUG THREADS AND REINSTALL PLUGS
             - REMOVE SAFETY LANYARD AND CRANK ENGINE TO WORK OIL INTO RINGS

          - REMOVE OIL DRAIN PLUG AND OIL LEVEL PLUG- DRAIN LOWER UNIT GEAR OIL
          - INJECT GEAR OIL INTO DRAIN PLUG (980 cc / 33.1 oz.) or till it
            begins coming out of the oil level plug hole.  Now juggle the
            plugs until they're secure in place...HOW MUCH OIL DO YOU SPILL!
          - TOP OFF REMOTE OIL TANK (2 Stroke oil)
          - CHECK/DRAIN FUEL FILTER BOWL FOR WATER OR FORGIEN
            MATTER (located under engine cowling)
          - CHECK  MAIN OIL TANK RESEVIOR  FOR WATER OR FORGIEN
            MATTER (located under engine cowling)
          - GREASE ALL FITTINGS PURGING ANY OLD GREASE AND MOISTURE
          - REMOVE BATTERIES FROM BOAT 
             Top off batteries with distilled water & clean battery posts
             Periodically check specific gravity and charge as necessary
          - WASH ENGINE UNDER COWLING, LET DRY AND SILICONE SPRAY (NOT WD40!)
          - REPLACE COWLING AND WAX ENTIRE OUTBOARD
          - GREASE PROP SHAFT, WRAP WITH RAG AND STORE IN OPERATING POSITION
          - REMOVE WATER SEPARATER, DUMP OUT FUEL, REPLACE
            AND PUMP BULB

          WAKE-UP PROCEDURE

    	DELETED : I can't get honked up about this part until spring.....
        
    Note : The above list was generated a couple years ago before I got greasy
           finger prints all over my manuals...
    
    Did I miss anything....question....discussion.....debate...?
    
    /MArk	  

    On removing the battery.  The theory goes NOT place the battery on a 
    concrete floor or the battery will be quickly discharged.  I had a 
    long talk with the Manager of Surrette Battery Co. and asked him about
    that.  He said 'its an old wives' tale that batteries loose their
    charge faster when placed on concrete.  This guy is a hand on type of
    guy who has been dealing with batteries his entire working life.  If
    anyone would be a reliable source of info on this he is.
    
    He also said that a battery which starts off fully charged will loose
    VERY little charge over the winter if the ambient temp is below 35 deg.
    F.  So that explains how some of you guys start your boats right up
    with no problem after the boat/batteries have been stored at outdoor
    temps. all winer.   A fully charged battery won't freeze.  Its the run
    down batteries which may freeze when the temp gets down there.
    
    Jeff

    
    RE: .42.
    
    I take issue with 2 of your recommendations..
    
    FOGGING:  do not put oil in the plug holes, the fogging oil is
              already there in an ash form, this is the preservative,
              you wash it off when puuting oil in the plug holes..
    
    BATTERIES:  I have SURRETTES, and have had them for years,
                FILL and CHARGE them, and leave them alone.
    
                NOTE, if you have a selector switch turn it off.
       
                      if you do not, disconnect the + side and
                      leave it alone.
    
    Jeff, is correct, charge them and leave them alone, do not charge
    them in the winter...   LEAVE THEM ALONE...
    
    I"M not kidding, i have these batteries, and they are not CHEAP
    i do exactly what i have stated above..
    
    JIm.          

/MArk,
I agree with just about everything, except for:

>>      - REMOVE SPARK PLUGS AND GIVE 10 SEC. SPRAY OF OIL IN
>>        EACH CYLINDER               ^^^^^^
>>      - GREASE PLUG THREADS AND REINSTALL PLUGS
>>      - REMOVE SAFETY LANYARD AND CRANK ENGINE TO WORK OIL INTO RINGS


This can VERY easily cause a hydraulic lock condition, depending on the amount
of oil sprayed into the cylinders.  As you know, oil cannot be compressed and
severe damage can result if an engine is cranked with too much liquid of any 
kind in the cylinders.  Sometimes everything will be OK by simply removing the
plugs and cranking the motor to remove the excess oil, but I've also bent a
connecting rod on a freshly rebuilt 428 Cobra Jet when a cylinder filled up
with rainwater and I tried to start the motor.

I would recommend more like a *3* second spray of oil.  Or if you insist on 
spraying for 10 seconds, crank the motor for several seconds BEFORE putting 
the plugs back in.

Rick

    re: .44

    	My PCM engine manual states: "after fogging, remove plugs and place
    1-2 teaspoons of oil in each cylinder". It also says to turn the engine
    over and I believe the manual says to turn the engine over "BY HAND" to
    spread the oil.

    	Upon recommissioning, remove the plugs, spin the engine using the
    starter to expel excess oil, replace plugs and start engine.

    Rick

    The battery in your boat if fully charged will not freeze the problem
    comes when you have a drain caused by an internal cell leak this
    can cause the battery to freeze and crack its case and leak acid into
    your bilge .This could cause an explosion or sever damage.I therefore
    reccommend you pull your battery out for the winter and store in cool
    dry location.
    
                    Dave

    
    re:.47, if you bring your boat home, and if you have one battery
    
            it may not be a bad idea, but some of us have more
    
            than one battery, like 4 or 5, and some of these get
    
            heavy, and are/maybe be in difficult to bend over to
      
            lift places.  I guess it depends on what you have to 
    
            deal with..  i've had a couple of mine go bad, i.e.
    
            one low or dead cell and as yet what i've found in the
    
            spring is a battery with a dead cell..
    
    JIm.

RE: .44 by Jim and a note by Rick 

>    FOGGING:  do not put oil in the plug holes, the fogging oil is
>              already there in an ash form, this is the preservative,
>              you wash it off when puuting oil in the plug holes..


    ...hummmm....I'm curious, I'll have to admit.  I pulled out my Yamaha
    owners manual and I did verify it sez to follow the fogging procedure 
    with the 10 SECOND spray in the plug holes.  When the engine is cranked 
    without the stop lanyard the plugs are removed ...thus preventing a 
    situation involving hydralic lock (?).  I do understand the hydralic
    lock as it happened once to a friends motorcycle....
    What you've got me most thinking about is the deal with washing off the
    'ash' when squirting the fogging oil directly in the cyclinders.  Would
    this direct application of the oil really detract from the procedure of
    fogging the engine through the carb throats?
    
    Not having to do this direct spray through the plug holes would
    certainly reduce the time spent winterizing however most of us would 
    side with the manufacturers recommendations called out in an owners 
    manual.  That's not to say I don't welcome your input.  I Am still
    curious. We all want to provide the best preventative maintenance
    for our *toys* ,,,alot of what can't be learned through an owners
    manual. Anybody else out ther w/ comments in reference to the above.
    
    /MArk

RE: Note 517.49  
>> I pulled out my Yamaha owners manual and I did verify it sez to follow 
>> the fogging procedure with the 10 SECOND spray in the plug holes.  When
>> the engine is cranked without the stop lanyard the plugs are removed 

"Plugs are removed" is the key.  Your original note said to spray 10 seconds,
reinstall the plugs, and THEN crank the motor.  The manual says to leave them
out while cranking, which is to prevent hydraulic lock.  10 seconds of oil 
spray followed by cranking the motor with the plugs in could easily do damage.

I also have to question whether spraying oil into the cylinder would actually
wash away any "ash" as Jim said.  Or whether "ash" would protect the cylinders
better than a good quality oil sprayed or squirted directly on the cylinder
walls.  I'd certainly feel better knowing that the cylinders were coated 
directly with oil rather than hoping the ash residue had coated the cylinders.

Being in the Antique Outboard Motor Club, I know several people who have 50, a
hundred, or more, outboard motors.  Many of these motors may be taken off the 
rack, run once for an hour or two, and put back on the rack to sit for another 
year or more.  Routine storage procedure for the powerhead is to shut off the 
fuel petcock and run the carb dry so the motor quits.  Then squirt some oil 
into the carb, remove the plugs and squirt a bit of oil into the cylinders, 
turn the motor over by hand a couple times, reinstall the plugs, drain the 
integral gas tank, and the motor's set for indefinite storage. Only takes about
10 minutes or so on smaller motors.  Some of these motors are original versions
Ole Evinrude's rowboat motors from the 19-teens, and this storage procedure 
seems to work fine for them.

I guess the bottom line is that whatever procedure you use, be sure to use one
of them (and protect against hydraulic lock!).  I'm sure either fogging or 
direct oiling will work fine.  I'm in the process of swapping powerheads on 
old Evinrude for a guy right now, the bad powerhead is rusted up tight from 
improper storage.

Rick  who_is_glad_the_notes_file_is_showing_activity_again

    
    ash stays in place, oil drains downward, so in effect the oil
    
    you spray into the cylinder, washes off the ash, and then drains
    
    to the bottom of the cylinder.
    
    gravity as they call it...
    
    JIm.

    The fogging of the engines in the carb method is one way and should not
    be used if you use the plug method.The thing to understand is that
    leaving the liquid in the cyl. is ok but it will evaporate alot quicker
    then the other way .The i/o all reccomend the spray threw the carb but
    these are large bore engines as opposed to the small bore outboards.

    I have talked to 3-4 mechanics/boatyards about winterizing my outboard 
    a 150hp marriner.  All of them as well as the owners manual says what
    .49 says.  Fog the engine, disconnect the fuel and fog while the engine
    runs itself out of gas.  Then remove the plugs and squirt the fogging
    oil down into the cylinders.  After that, pull the engine through a few
    times and reinstall plugs.
    
    I knowthat in the spring when I start it for the first time it sure
    smokes a lot for the first few minutes; therefore the oil/fogging stuff
    must still be in there.
    
    Gordon
    

    Maybe this isn't the place for this, but then maybe it is.
    
    I'm looking at continuing to use my small outboard (or one that I am
    considering buying) in saltwater all through the winter.
    
    Are there things I should be aware that are new to coldweather,
    saltwater usage as far as keeping the engine functioning?
    
    
    I was thinking that the only thing I would have to do is set up a
    barrel full of freshwater in my basement and run the motor there after
    every use. (The motor fits on the back of an inflatable.) If I
    get the motor into the back of the car immediately after use to avoid
    having it freeze up --- though I'm  unlikely to go out too often when
    temps are below freezing, anyway --- and then into the barrel in the
    basement as soon as possible, will I have done just about everything
    necessary to keep the thing alive through the winter?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    
    John,
    
    	You should be all set with the "thru-the-winter" procedure you
    describe, as outboards, generally drain themselves completely when
    placed in a vertical position.
    
    	If it were my engine, I'd keep a close eye on the lower unit
    lubrication, maybe change it a couple times since water seepage
    into the LU and subsequent freezing could be costly.
    
    Rick
    
    Also, you may want to consider running the engine in your barrel if
    you don't get around to using it for several weeks. I've read that
    wear and tear on engines which are not layed-up caused by non-use
    can be significant.
    

    Thanks for the commentary. I'll keep a close eye on the lower unit.
    
    John H-C

    Don't be so worried about your outboard. Here in Seattle where we leave
    our boats in all year, I just hang in on my transom mounted bracket and
    leave it. Since I moor in salt water, it never gets rinsed out. Since
    it drains when you take it out of the water, you don't worry about it
    freezing. My last outboard was treated like this for 7 years and still
    ran fine (and it was a cheap Gamefisher 7.5HP). My new Suzuki should do
    better, I hope.
    

	I think an outboard used in salt water will be fairly safe 
from freezing  a) almost all the water will drain when you pull the 
boat anyway  b) what little doesn't drain is likely to have such a low 
freezing point that it won't freeze in the trunk of a car in a couple 
or three hours on the way home.  Well, OK it COULD, but only at 
temperatures that you're not likely to be doing this in anyway....

	Reg

    Don't forget it's not the freezing of the water that's the problem
    in itself, it's the expansion of frozen water that breaks things.
    
    A little water in an unconfined area won't hurt.
    

    At winter temperatures salt water corrosion is slowed.  However
    saltwater is so hydroscopic that salt residue pulls moisture from the
    air.
    
    I still had small PUDDLES of saltwater on the deck of my boat 6 weeks
    after its last use in saltwater, and this was inside a building so I 
    know it wasn't rain or dew.  The salt puddles stayed wet until rinsed
    with fresh water.  In the confined areas in an engines cooling system
    salt water moisture must remain for many months until the engine is
    rinsed with freshwater.  Freeze damage is not my point, corrosion is!
    
    Jeff

    re: .61
    I've winterized a bunch of motors this fall, some my own, some
    for other people.  And I've done 'em both ways.
    
    Generally, if the motor is going to remain attached to the boat
    and outdoors I leave the carb and fuel lines full.
    
    For smaller outboards that are going to be stored indoors, or be
    transported or stored while laying flat on their side, I run the 
    carb and fuel line dry to prevent leakage.
    
    In either case, the gas I use while winterizing and fogging the motor
    has fuel stabilizer added to it to preserve any fuel which remains
    until next spring.  I keep a tank mixed with extra oil (24:1) and 
    stabilizer just for winterizing.
    
    For motors that are going to be stored indefinitely, i.e. they may
    not be run next year, I'd always run the carb dry. Even fuel with 
    stabilizer will eventually evaporate or turn to varnish if left long
    enough.
    
    Rick

    
    
    	When i was winterizing mine, (Its a merc cruiser i/o)
    	I drained the anti freeze, and when I went to refill it, all
    	the new anti freeze ran from the back, where the lower unit
    	comes out form the back of the boat..my mech said this is
    	normal..
    
    	is it?? doesn't seem normal, and I don't rem this happening last 
    	year..
    
    	Ken

    
    
     If you do not have fresh water cooling  with a heat exchanger, then
    you must realize that the system is not a "closed" system. Raw water is
    drawn in through the water pump in the lower unit (or a separate water
    pump on some engines). The wtare is sent to the engine , where it is
    circulated bt the engine mounted water pump(the one that looks like the
    water pump in a car, but costs about 4X as much). the water absorbs
    heat from the engine and is discharged through the exhaust elbow
    directly into the exhaust, where it colls the hot gases and exits.
    
    
    THus the water goes from the raw water pump, through the engine and out
    the exhaust. When you fill the block with antifreeze- the overflow will
    go one of two places- back through the water pump(just a dribble) or
    out through the open exhaust -that's where you sprobably see the anti
    freeze coming from.
    
     If you have a close system and this happens- your heat exchanger is
    probably history.
    
    
    
    

    
    Moved by moderator
    ------------------
    
              <<< VICKI::SIE$DATA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Powerboats >-
================================================================================
Note 35.16         Dry Stitching;  In Mass or New Hampshire ?           16 of 18
BROKE::TAYLOR "New IQ test: 4-Way Stop Signs!"       11 lines  10-DEC-1991 11:04
                            -< Spread this word... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This really belongs in the winterizing note, but you should always
    remove the drain cock completely and run a nail or large piece of wire
    into the hole. Sand and crud builds up in these fittings and sometimes
    (most always from the ones I do, on 4.3 liter engines) the stuff is so
    thick, just a few drops of water come out. Be careful doing this with a
    hot block, the hot water bursts loose onto your hand if your nail is
    straight! And don't forget the power steering cooler, if so equipped.
    That heat exchanger is delicate, and easily transfigured by frozen
    water.
    
    Mike

    Moved by moderator
    ------------------
    
              <<< VICKI::SIE$DATA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Powerboats >-
================================================================================
Note 35.17         Dry Stitching;  In Mass or New Hampshire ?           17 of 18
CSLALL::BORZUMATO                                     9 lines  10-DEC-1991 12:12
                      -< or maybe there's another way.. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I don't own an I/O, but i've seen them winterized. After the leg is
    removed, they put a hose on on that part the leg was connected to
    and run the engine to draw in anti-freeze, this should displace
    the standing water.
    
    Wouldn't this have worked????
    
    JIm.

    I agree with Jim,a guy should always draw antifreeze into the motor
    after draining it just to be sure. The antifreeze will also prevent
    rusting and corrosion. I have always used 2 gal of antifreeze mixed 
    with 2 gal of water,I keep drawing it in until it shoots out the
    exhaust. 
    
    Matt

    
    This is certainly another argument for the "keep it wet all winter"
    school. Previously the only arguments I knew were corrosion and keeping
    the seals moist.
    
    Rick Still_in_the_antifreeze_school....

    The only thing I don't like about anti-freezing your motor is that
    about one week after you've done it,the weather warms up,anti-freeze 
    isn't cheap.
    
    

    
    I got the non-toxic anti-freeze for $2.50 a gal.  Can't use the
    
    Prestone type any more, pollutes too much, against the law anyway.
    
    JIm..

re  ...I forgot, whoever has the cracked 4.3

	I've heard it said that the design of American V8s is  
"pre-ethylene glycol"  and that it wasn't uncommon  "way back then"  
for people to put almost anything (including salt) in their car/truck
cooling systems to prevent freezing.  It was also common for people 
who didn't use their vehicles very much to just drain the block and 
radiator when the weather got chilly.  This is all WAY before my time, 
of course, and its  WAY  before the era of total auto dependency, but
the term  "freeze plugs"  persists in the vocaulary of modern
mechanics and in some designs they  DO  save the block if it gets left
with raw water in.   Anyway, the point is that the 4.3 is a  "modern
design"  and may have been designed on the car/truck assumption that 
"everybody uses ethylene glycol these days, so we don't have to make
it freeze safe by the ole draining trick".

	Unfortunately the Vernay muffler doesn't have a drain,  this 
is  * - VERY  UNFORTUNATE - *   because it means that I have a choice 
between  a) winterize  and miss the warm day opportunities that always 
seem to come a week later, this means sucking in antifreeze until it 
literally pours/spews out of the exhaust  b) fibre-glass patch the
splits in the ends AGAIN next spring  c) cut it apart to find the low
spots, glass in some drains and glass it all back together again. 
Tough choice, but I'll probably retro-engineer the thing (-:

	Reg

    
    
    	On the subject of mufflers. I was surprised this last winter
    at the amount of water I found in my mufflers when I removed them
    to work on the stringers. A good idea with inboard (under_the_floor)
    mufflers would be to raise the bow as high as possible so they drain.
    
    	Just a little nit, Jim... it's not illegal to use a Prestone-like
    antifreeze to winterize a marine engine, but it is illegal to dump any
    of it in the spring on the earth.
    
    	BTW: The $2.50 a gallon non-toxic is used straight while the 5-6
    dollar Prestone is a 50/50 mix so the $$$ are about the same.
    
    Rick

    
    re: matt
    
    	I usually consider the placement of anitfreeze in my 351 PCM
    as the final deed. The boat doesn't get re-commissioned until March.
    
    	BTW: I get to cheat and bring the boat home from the ramp on
    those November/December days and park it in a heated garage!  :-)
    
    Rick

    
    The EPA (eternal pain in the a$$) has outlawed the use of Prestone
    
    type anti-freeze for those who winterize, and we were told at
    
    our boat yard "not to use it"
    
    when i winterize, i'm looking for it to come out of the exhausts,
    and of course there is the usual dripping after your done...
    
    
    do as you like, but i certainly wouldn't use it at home...
    
    JIm.

    mod hat on...
    
    I've moved the I/O vs. outboard replies to their own topic.
    You'll find them in note 936.  
    
    Rick

    
    RE:
>              <<< VICKI::SIE$DATA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
>                                -< Powerboats >-
>================================================================================
>Note 35.26         Dry Stitching;  In Mass or New Hampshire ?           26 of 26
>MCIS2::MACKEY                                         8 lines  13-DEC-1991 13:24
>                       -< Did not use "reasonable care" >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    The Osco price and or number would be helpfull.  I wonder what
>    Marine USA would say if I mentioned that to them??   
>    
>    The reason the adjuster would not cover them is because he
>    believes that I did not use "reasonable care" in draining 
>    them.  removing the plugs was not good enough, I should have also
>    removed all the hoses...
    
	Does you owner's manual say you should remove all the hoses to
    winterize? I can't compare to my owner's manual since it says "fill
    with antifreeze"....
    
    Just a thought...
    
    Rick
    

    Rick, sorry it took so long to get you an Osco price.  I just found 
    my Osco catalog.  I think my wife hid it so I wouldn't buy myself 
    a Christmas present.
    
    The Tel # for Osco is 215-855-8268.  The catalog lists two styles of
    OMC replacement manifolds for your engine.  The first is a standard
    "exact replacement" for 225 or 231 cubic inch V-6.  The part
    number/cost is:  BT6-0/$135 ea.
    The other version is called a center riser which fits a Chevy V-6 229
    CID engine.  The part number is: CSCR/CRR-2.  The price is: $208 each.
    You probably will need to purchase some type of elbow or riser assembly
    unless what's on yours now will fit.  I would call OSCO for details
    and ask them to send you one of their catalogs which has all the
    pictures which you need to make sure you are ordering the right thing.
    Wayne

    re: .82
    
    Wayne,
    Thanks, but I think you meant those prices for Colin, not me.
    
    He'll also need the price for the Chevy 262, which is what the 
    4.3 liter motor is.
    
    Rick

    Can anyone tell me how to winterize my boat?
    
    Rick

    
    Rick,
    
    	The easiest and best method for winterizing your boat is
    to wrap it in a very large plastic bag, seal the bag with one
    of those fancy sealer-deals (available from K-Tel; see channel
    50 in Cow-Hampshire for details). Take the entire sealed package
    and place it in your freezer for the winter.
    
    	In the spring, reverse the above procedure.
    
    Backyard_bout_Mekanik!

    Sheesh, you mean I gotta go to all dat trouble?  I was hopin'
    I could jes leave it out back and repair any damage like rustid
    Sillinders and frozed lower youknits in the spring.
    
    And what chew makin fun of us Cow Hampsherites for?
    
    
    
    Many 8*) of course.  Actually, I was hoping to just generate a little
    activity here.  Where IS everyone anyway? I hope not down at the
    unemployment office!
    
    Rick

    Rick,
    
    I'm still here.   You've managed to convince me that there is something
    wrong with the performance of my boat.  This, coupled with constant job
    stress with regard to downsizing etc, make it likely that I will not
    live to see the Spring.  In the meantime I am altering my will to
    indicate to my heirs that the boat has in fact been properly
    winterized and that they may have a (low performance) blast in the
    Spring after an appropriate period of mourning.**
    
    ** (My ashes are to be spread over Cashes Ledge. Serve them fish
        which would never bite right...)
    
    Jim

	Just say  " NO ! "

		(to  "winterizing"  that is)


	R	{doesn't}

    Anybody have any new tips on keeping a motor from freezing if you want
    to keep putting a boat in the water and then taking it out all year
    round in New England?
    
    John H-C
    
    P.S. Maybe a barrell full of antifreeze to submerge the lower unit into
    each and every night?

    If it's an outboard, aren't they pretty much self-draining when tilted
    up?  When my boat gets winterized I know they flush the cooling system
    but thats just to rinse out crud and salt - no antifreeze is put in.
    
    As far as the lower unit goes it would be important to change the
    grease just as in normal winterization since you don't want to run the
    risk that any trapped condensation in the lubricant will freeze.
    
    A raw-water cooled I/O is probably pretty much the same story except I
    doubt whether you could completely drain the block just by gravity,
    although like water pipes, as long there is some expansion space
    for frozen water you won't crack anything.
    
    

RE.89
	This ain't a new tip, but it works.

	As soon as its on the trailer and clear of the ramp, take out
all the drain plugs, drop the strainer (always a good measure each
time you pull the boat), uncouple the raw water pick-up hose.  Remove
the manifold end plugs.  Undo anything else that has a low spot and
needs draining, like a hot water spray gizmo.   This may be a little
controversial, but if you have any doubts about how well things are
drained, fire up the engine again for a couple or three seconds - just
enough to spin the water out of the pump.  DONE !   Oh, take the hull
plug out.  Drive home vigorously to shake the rest of the water out 
before it freezes.

	Just remember to put it ALL back together the next time you
launch (-: 

	Reg

PS	If you do it a lot it might be worth replacing the block 
	drains with radiator drain cocks.

    The engine should be self draining IF it is kept vertical after its
    pulled out.  Also you should MANUALLY spin the engine over to remove
    trapped water from the water pump vanes.  Starting the engine without
    enough water in the pump will burn the vanes FAST... a few seconds
    is enough.  Assuming you have no trapped water in the lower gearcase
    (no leaks) the lower unit should be fine.  Rick, correct me if I have
    overlooked anything.
    
    Lobstermen in Maine run outboards all winter without freezing problems.
    Of course they are running in salt water which lowers the freezing
    point slightly to 25 deg. or so.  But still in a N. England it gets
    plenty cold enough to freeze salt water.
    
    Jeff

    Yep, Jeff has it right in the previous reply.  The motor should be
    left tilted *down*, not up, to drain.  And it should be spun through
    a couple revolutions to clear the water pump.  It should not be started
    however, while out of the water.
    
    Rick
    
    
    
    
    

    This year, I'd like to be enviornmentally sensitive, and not
    use automotive antifreeze for winterizing.  (So that is
    doesn't leak out in some lake in the spring, producing fish
    fillets that don't get hard in the freezer.)

    I have some pink non-toxic antifreeze intended for potable
    water systems in rv's.  I was thinking of using this, instead.

    I think this stuff is alcohol based.  I'm concerned that the
    alcohol might not be good for rubber things -- like hoses and
    water pump impellors.

    I guess my choices are use the automotive stuff, like I've
    been doing.  Use the automotive stuff, and try and collect
    it in the spring.  Use the alcohol based stuff.

    Does anyone have any comments?   

    Also, any suggestions on disposing of used antifreeze? 

    Thanks.

    	- Lee

    
    As it stands now, anyone who stores at a marina has no choice
    about using "non toxic" antifreeze.
    
    There is one available with a rust inhibitor.
    
    Some are alcohol based and others are not, check the label before
    using.
    
    There is no need to dispose of used antifreeze, strain out
    the contaminants, check it for potency, add whats needed to
    bring it up to par and your back in business.
    It doesn't wear out, just looses some of its bang.
    
    
    
    JIm

    
    Lee - The pink (RV) anti freeze is Poly-Ethelene Glycol. It is not
    alcohol at all. I have no idea how it will perform in an engine, but I
    wouldn't use it, the chances of messing up something are too great.
    There is a large mix of aluminum, iron, stell, rubber, plastic, etc.
    Who knows which one (If any) it may react with?
    
      If you have drain plugs at the base of the engine block (Just above
    the oil pan - one on each side if it is a 'V' engine) take them out and
    let the block drain completely. Make sure they are clear (Of blockage)
    and make sure you also drain all the hoses and the water pump if it is
    of the Volvo type (Impeller in a housing on the front of the crankshaft
    pully - I also think Mercruiser and/or OMC have gone to this type
    recentlyu). The idea being, if you get most or almost all of the water
    out, you don't need to use any antifreeze.
    
    					Kenny

    Trailer Boat Mag this month has a winterizing checklist which covers
    everything in a logical order.  If anyone is interested, I'll make
    copies and send them out.  Send me your mail stop if interested.
    Wayne 

    I was told this year that if the engine is winterized with toxic
    antifreeze and the liquid falls on the ground or the water,be salt
    or fresh and you are caught you going to jail,period.
    I used the pink staff $ 2.50 /gl. from spags or Jamestown  Distributors
    for the fresh water systems and $ 13.95/gl for the engine winterizing.
    By the way, I still use the automotive antifreeze for my engine cooling
    system but when I want to change it I drain it thru a drain hose,
    attached to the engine, in a container and take it home for proper
    disposal.

re     my reply on draining at the ramp, etc.   No way am I going to 
turn a 351 Ford block over by hand,  I said to just spin it on the 
starter for a couple or three seconds  - -  never mind.


	I believe what I recommended doesn't work with the 4.3 litre
V6 GM block.  I have seen 3 that were cracked, each was supposedly
"drained" but enough water hung around somewhere in the block to do
severe damage.  I am of the opinion that most american V8 designs
precede ethylene glycol, i.e. they were designed for draining.  The GM
V6 was designed more recently, when  "everyone"  puts antifreeze in
their cars. 

	Reg

RE: .98
>> I was told this year that if the engine is winterized with toxic
>> antifreeze and the liquid falls on the ground or the water,be salt
>> or fresh and you are caught you going to jail,period.

>> By the way, I still use the automotive antifreeze for my engine cooling
>> system but when I want to change it I drain it thru a drain hose,
>> attached to the engine, in a container and take it home for proper
>> disposal.

Hmmm, the penalty sounds a bit harsh for an accidental antifreeze spill.
I'd have to see it happen to believe they'd send someone to jail for it.
Although in this day and age where real criminals continue to walk the
streets, I guess nothing would surprise me.

By the way, if you're using automotive antifreeze to winterize a raw water
system, and the above mentioned law is true, you'd better get a good lawyer.
It takes a good 10 or 20 gallons of fresh water to flush a system before 
the backwash comes out clear and not green from antifreeze.  Unless you're 
doing that and recovering all 10 or 20 gallons for disposal, you ARE dumping 
antifreeze into the water when you launch your boat.  If it's a closed
cooling system, then never mind.  8^)

Rick

    Automatic jail for a small antifreeze spill?  What ever happened to due
    process.  Just think if I killed someone it sounds as if I would have
    a better chance of avoiding prison!  Guess thats a better choice,
    (smile). 
    
    If your going to RUN the engine to operating temp I would wonder about
    the pink RV non toxic stuff.  But filling the block and spinning the
    starter over for a few seconds would not worry me.  I use the pink
    stuff in my RV water system which has plastic, stinless, rubber pump
    parts, some PVC, and steel in it.  I have had no corrosion problems.
    I doubt that an ambient temp engine would have problems with it either. 
    
    Jeff

    I have used the pink stuff the last 2 years, no problems at all
    above and beyond what happen with salt water use.
    
    Bruce

    Rich
    I have a 30 HP Yanmar and it is a closed cooling system.So all I use 
    is a gallon auto antifreeze which I change every year,as I said I drain 
    it in a bucket and bring it home for disposal.
    By winterizing I mean My  engine exhaust.I do that by having a big
    bucket, 5-10 gallons of fresh water and one gallon of the expensive non
    toxic antifreeze.I close the seacock disconnect the input hose,put
    it in the bucket pur the water and start the engine.When the fresh
    water is almost gone and the salt in the exhaust is washed out by the
    fresh water I put the hose in the mouth of the antifreeze gallon(it
    fits) sucks the antifreeze and voila it is winterized.
    The jail thing I was told by the people at Connanicut Marina I also
    saw it in print on the instructions I was send from Wharf Marina in
    Warwick RI when I apply for hauling with them.
    
    What a beautiful day for boating today
    

    Since this was my first year winterizing an I/O, I checked around the
    Boston area for environmentally sound anti-freeze to fill the block
    with. My Mercruiser manual suggests anti-freeze as extra insurance
    against damage. The boat is stored in northern Vermont so it will get
    plenty cold, and my first-year paranoi liked the sound of "extra
    insurance!  At Bliss, West Marine, and BOAT/US they all sold two types
    of "pink" antifreeze made by the same manufacturer. One was "RV" which
    was not to be mixed with water (i.e used straight from the jug) and the
    other was advertised for use in engines and had a table on the label
    for mixing with water just like auto anti-freeze. The higher the mix
    content of anti-freeze, the lower the temperature protection. They all
    recommended the mixable type for engines, for it's additional corrosion
    protection in an engine. My dealer (Baert Marine in Danvers) sells the
    RV type and says its OK for engines. They do, however, say NOT to use
    anything that is alchohol based in the engine. 
    
    I was there to pick something up on a Saturday when the parts counter
    was slow and spent some time with the Asst. Service Manager. He gave me
    some advice which I followed. I bought three gallons of the mixable
    pink stuff (not the RV) at Boat/US- $6.99 per gallon, best price I
    found. I mixed the three gallons with two gallons of water in a
    5-gallon bucket. I followed the Merc. manual and drained the two block
    drains, exhaust manifold hoses, power steering cooler fluid (raw water
    intake) hose, and the large circulator pump hose. I got lots of water
    out of each place and used a piece of wire to check that the block
    drains were not plugged. 
    
    The 3 parts anti-freeze to 2 part water mix gives (according to the
    table) a -85 degree protection level. He said that would sound a little
    strong but if the antifreeze mix encounters some trapped water and gets
    diluted, it will still have a good safety margin.
    
    He said it is very important to get the anti-freeze past the raw water
    impeller until it flows out the raw water intakes on the lower drive 
    (Mine is a mercruiser 5.7L/Alpha 1, raw water cooled). I pulled the
    raw water intake hose (from the drive to the power steering fluid
    cooler) off of the power steering fluid cooler connection and pulled it
    out from under the exhaust manifold (it is about 3-feet long) at the
    rear of the engine and held it upright and filled it with antifreeze
    until it ran out the water intakes (I could hear it in the bucket).
    Holding it up gave a good head of water pressure to get it past the
    impeller. I reattached the hose to the cooler and disconnected the
    extension of this hose from the thermostat housing and filled the hose
    with mix, and then reattached it to the housing.  
    
    I filled both exhaust manifolds by disconnecting the upper hoses from
    the thermostat housing and pouring mix in until it ran out the water
    outlets in the gimbal housing of the drive. I reattached the hoses. 
    
    
    I filled the engine and circulator pump by disconnecting the big
    circulator  pump hose on the front of the engine at the top of the hose
    (I had previously disconnectd the bottom to drain it) and filled it
    with mix until it ran out the upper hose attachment point on the
    cuirculator pump. This took over two gallons by itself. I then
    reattached the hose. My Merc. manual says to add antifreeze by pouring
    it in the thermostat housing after removing the thermostat cover. I
    decided to be on the safe side and do this but it took very little and
    then ran into the exhaust manifold hoses and then out the water outlets
    again. 
    
    One of his key warnings was to keep track of about how much water you
    drained and PARTICULARLY how much mix you are able to get INTO it. If
    you do not get most of the raw water out, and thus cannot get enough
    antifreeze mix in then you are probably going to have a problem. My
    Mercruiser manual gives the capacity of a raw water cooled engine for
    just this purpose. Mine is listed at 15 quarts. My 5-gallon bucket held
    20 quarts. When I had completed the above process I was left with just
    about 4 1/2 quarts in the bucket, and I did spill some here and there.
    If my math is right I got just about 15 quarts into it so I think its
    OK. I saved the left over for next year in one of the anti-freeze
    containers. I put buckets under the raw water intake and exhaust water
    outlets which served to catch the overflow and also let me hear when
    the hoses or manifolds were full.
    
    I put this here to help anyone looking, but also if any of you with
    more experience see any mistakes here please let me know. Thanks.
    
    Larry  

    One question regarding winterizing an outboard.  I have read all these
    replys regarding fogging, etc. and am about to do this for the first 
    time.  I have a 60 horse Johnson, with a plastice portable tank.  I
    am not sure if I should leave the gas line connected during fogging,
    run the engine, fog till she smokes, then shut off.  Or, disconnect
    the gas line, run engine, fog till she dies (dry lines).
    
    I believe I have read in here both ways, and what has me worried is
    a comment regarding dry seals if gas is completely drained, sounds
    logical, so this points me to leaving the lines attached..
    So, what is the consensus, disconnect or not ???
    
    
    
    Steve

    
      You should put some fuel stabilizer into your fuel tank and run the
    motor for about 3 minutes at least before fogging it. When you fog it,
    the idea is to get as much fogging oil into the engine as possible and
    KEEP it there. So you need to add in the fogger quickly with the engine
    at fast(ish) idle. Shut off the engine immediately after fogging so the
    oil does not have a chance to get burned out of the engine. For a 60,
    you should probably use about 1/3 to 1/2 can of fogger.
    
      The seals in modern engines do not 'dry out'.
    
    					Kenny

    Did I just make a major error?
    
    I was so intent on getting the boat out of the water that I pulled it
    out yesterday, intending to go back and winterize it next weekend. It
    sounds as if the only way to winterize an outboard is while it is still
    in the water. 
    
    Is there anything I can do to protect the innards from the freeze other
    than put it back in the water and run the engine while I spray Miracle
    Oil into the air intake?
    
    John H-C

    re: .107
    John, 
    The boat doesn't need to go back in the lake.  Preferably, you 
    shouldn't fog it in the lake anyway, since you'd be dumping a lot 
    of oil into the water.  Buy a set of the "muffs" which are available 
    at any marine supply store, and a garden hose to run your larger 
    motor(s).  For the smaller ones, muffs usually don't fit, so just 
    set up a sawhorse and a 35 gallon trash can full of water.  Just 
    like the setup I used to demonstate your motors when you bought 
    'em from me.   8^)
    Rick
    
    P.S. When running motors in a barrel like this, a trick for 
         preventing oil slicks on the water, is to throw in a cup 
         of laundry detergent.

    John, your not quitting for the season are you??!!  SCUBA diving that
    is.... its still so early in the season!  Smile.  I have one more
    boating trip for the season left... next weekend, if it doesn't
    (as usual this year) rain.
    
    On the issue of running a 2 stroke out of fuel for the season. A
    small engine guy told me NEVER to run a 2 stroke out of fuel on
    purpose as the bearings will be oil starved during the coast to a
    stop period.  It sort of makes sense to me except:
    
    1. The engine is under essentially no load conditions when coasting
    to a stop.
    
    2. There should be some residual oil left in the crankcase during the
    coast to a stop period.
    
    Any thoughts on this issue?  Is he right?
    
    Jeff

    Ah, no, Jeff. I'm a long way from done. (In fact, the season never
    ends, since saltwater around these parts doesn't freeze.) It's the DES
    freshwater boat that came out of the water yesterday. It's 50hp Merc is
    23 years old, and after what we put into it in $ this year, I want to
    make sure it survives its first winter under DES ownership.
    
    The little beaters I bought from Rick will get used all winter long.
    They're light enough that I just haul them into the basement at the end
    of the day.
    
    Are the "muffs" mentioned in .108 described in more detail somewhere
    else in this topic?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

	Just say  "NO"

re: .109
>> On the issue of running a 2 stroke out of fuel for the season. A
>> small engine guy told me NEVER to run a 2 stroke out of fuel on
>> purpose as the bearings will be oil starved during the coast to a
>> stop period. 

The advice you were given is generally right on the money.  One or more
of the cylinder will always run out of fuel/oil before the others, leaving 
it with no lubrication.  When running a motor out of fuel, you should shut 
it off at the first sign of stalling.  The one time that this is NOT a 
problem is when fogging.  Since the very purpose of fogging is to coat the 
inside of the motor with oil, there shouldn't be any surfaces running 
without oil.

re: .110
>> Are the "muffs" mentioned in .108 described in more detail somewhere
>> else in this topic?
  
I'm not sure if they're described elsewhere, but they're available at any
marine store as I said.  They're called "muffs" because they actually resemble
a pair of earmuffs, except they'd be so tight they'd only fit pinheads. I 
don't know if one is made to fit your old Merc.  Any store that carries Tempo 
marine parts can look it up for you, or I can check my NAPA catalog for you 
tonight.  It's just as easy, and cheaper to tilt your motor up while it's on 
the boat, and slide a 35 gallon trash can under the motor as you tilt it back 
down.  Then fill the can up with water, and you're ready to go.  It's actually
better for the motor anyway - you're more assured that it's getting cooling
water.  It's also much better environmentally than fogging in the lake, which 
I've heard you may have a passing interest in...   8^)
 
Rick

	1 yr ago this month I bought the "FishTeaser" with a 70hp Johnson
	outboard.  I bought the earmuffs and all the winterizing fluids/oils
	from my dealer.  I followed the instructions that came with the
	engine last winter and using the muffs it worked fine.  As I trailer
	the boat everywhere I also use the muffs to run the engine at home	
	to flush out the SaltWater from the engine.  It doesn't take much
	time and as I don't want a 55gal drum hanging around the yard full
	of H20 I believe using the muffs would save on H20 usage in the
	long run?

	Will keep trying to Saltwater fish till end of November
	-< Tuna Tail >-

    A word of warning when using the muffs, I burned up a water pump
    finding this out:  If for any reason the water pump doesn't pick
    up water IMMEDIATELY when using the muffs and your reving the engine
    waiting for that squirt of cooling water out of the tell tail which
    doesn't show up (the squirt of water) you just burned out your water
    pump finding out there was a problem.  Twenty seconds of running the
    pump dry and good bye impeller.  The barrel trick which I now use 
    exclusively INSURES that the impeller is submerged at at least
    lubricated by water while testing.  The power head can handle 30-45
    seconds without any cooling water (from a COLD start) ok but the
    pump CAN'T handle the lack of water.
    
    Incidentally those with British Seagulls need not worry, the Gulls
    CAN handle a lack of cooling water for 30 - 45 seconds with no damage
    because the pump is not water lubricated.
    
    Jeff

re                       <<< Note 517.114 by SALEM::GILMAN >>>
>                               -< Cooling Water >-

	Generally true, however...

	I have found that flexible blade pump impellors (of neoprene 
sortof stuff) can run  "dry"  much longer than normal if they were 
assembled with lots of what I usually refer to as  "marine grease",  
that green stuff that doesn't wash out.

	Reg

    I believe it Reg, but I bet the 'average' impeller was not assembled
    with that grease.  Also, I would bet it would wash out fast if the
    engine had been run for a while after being assembled with that grease.
    
    Anyway, could/would you COUNT on the grease to keep your pump lubed?
    
    DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SAILING CONFERENCE?  DOES ANYBODY
    KNOW IF ITS ADDRESS HAS CHANGED? I ALWAYS GET NETWORK PARTNER EXISTED
    FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS.
    
    Tx. Jeff
    
    

.115
>> I have found that flexible blade pump impellors (of neoprene 
>> sortof stuff) can run  "dry"  much longer than normal if they were 
>> assembled with lots of what I usually refer to as  "marine grease",  
>> that green stuff that doesn't wash out.

Reg,
On all the water pumps I replace, (and I've done quite a few) I grease 
the impeller before reassembly.  I grease them to help prime and lube 
the pump on initial startup, and also so that I can crank or even briefly
start the motor indoors before test running it in the barrel.  

I've had to disassemble a couple after several hours of use, and traces of
the grease are gone.  After a season's use, I wouldn't run a pump impeller 
dry just because it was greased initially.  As Jeff said, it MAY work, but 
it may also fry the pump.

Rick

    Well, I took a stab at fogging this weekend..    My timing was off as
    I ran out of fogger before the engine ran out of gas.  I had to shut
    off the engine prior to it peetering out.  I have a 60 hs 1970ish Johnson...
    Should I do the process over again ??  Or is it OK to leave some gas
    in it ??
    
    Thanks,
    
    

    If you put fuel conditioner into the fuel tank prior to fogging so
    that the conditioner has been pulled into the engine it should be ok as
    is.
    
    Jeff

    Moved by moderator.  Also see note 159 for winterizing info.
    
================================================================================
Note 1029.0              Advice on winterizing outboards                 1 reply
PHDVAX::WALDRON                                       9 lines   2-NOV-1992 23:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I could use some advise on winterizing my 90 HP (outboard) Johnson.
    
    My neighbor told me, all I need to do is run the gas out of the engine
    and fog the plugs with an outboard spray and then spray the entire
    engine with the same stuff. This sounds too easy, is this all I need to
    do?
    
    Also, the lower unit oil, should this be replaced now, or should I wait
    until the spring.

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 1029.1              Advice on winterizing outboards                  1 of 2
UNIFIX::FRENCH "Bill French 381-1859"                16 lines   3-NOV-1992 08:12
                    -<  stabilize, fog and change oil NOW >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It's not the plugs that you fog, its the cylinders. Usually done thru
    the carburetor while the engine is running. although it can be
    introduced thru the spark plug hole later.
    
    You should add stabilizer to the fuel before running it dry.
    
    Yes, you should change the lower unit oil now. I ruined a lower unit
    by waiting till spring, cause water had gotten into the oil. The 
    corrosion only happened (I am told) because it sat all winter.
    
    See other notes regarding winterizing. There have been a lot of
    discussion here.
    
    Bill
    .
    

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 1029.2              Advice on winterizing outboards                  2 of 2
SALEM::NORCROSS_W                                     3 lines   3-NOV-1992 09:12
                           -< send me your mailstop >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'll send you a winterizing checklist if you send me a mailstop.  Much
    more to it than just fogging the motor.
    Wayne

    Wayne,
    
    Would you mind posting your winterizing checklist in here so we can 
    all benefit.
    
    Thanx,
    
    -Stevie D

    One other thing you can do on an IO is to remove the out drive after
    draining and refilling the oil.  This prevents two things.  The first
    is theft.  The second is having the shaft seize  to the coupler on
    the flywheel.  If it does you will have to cut the shaft with a torch
    just before the engine is pulled to replace the coupler.  
    
    A third thing you can do even if you have fresh water cooling on a
    mercruiser. Is to check the d__m water pump impeller in the io leg. 
    Even with fresh water cooling. The pump is used as a circulating pump to
    cool the io gears. 
    
    Ken C 

    Re: 517.23
      I would but it's 2 pages long and I'm a slow typer.  Plus, it's right
    out of the october issue of Trailer Boat Mag which a number of people
    subscribe to.  I will gladly mail you a copy (or fax it if your fax
    machine is on the DTN.)
    Wayne

    Howdy,
    
    I'm continuing a topic for discussion here from the Outboard Parts
    and repair note (83.114, 83.115) to avoid digressing from the topic
    over there.
    
    Rick (Suter) brought up an excellent point in regards to fogging an
    ouboard engine prior to winter storage.  When I fogged my engine 
    last fall (December) I did it just prior to pulling the boat out
    of the water, having run it up to operating temperature (BTW this
    was down at the Lawrence Ma. ramp on the Merrimack river).  It did
    not occur to me at the time, that this would cause unnecessary stress
    on the environment.
    
    Given the nature of the winterizing of outboards (i.e. raw water
    cooled, with the exhaust partially released under the surface of
    the water), what is the most environmentally sound method for 
    fogging an engine?   Short of everyone buying Inboards or I/Os, there
    seems no way around contaminating at least *some* amount of water 
    with the residual fogging oil.   Similarly, when the boat is
    de-wintererized, again some fogging oil is find its way into
    some water.
    
    I will certainly pay more attention to these issues in the future.
    
    Gus
     

re: .127
>> Short of everyone buying Inboards or I/Os, there seems no way 
>> around contaminating at least *some* amount of water with the 
>> residual fogging oil.   Similarly, when the boat is de-wintererized,
>> again some fogging oil is find its way into some water.
    
It seems like those "minor nits" will always get'cha!  A fogged 
inboard or I/O will still dump fogging oil directly into the water
if that's where the first spring startup takes place.  Granted,
normal running time doesn't dump oil into the water like a 2 cycle
does.

But, here's the "gotcha".  Some people are still winterizing their
inboards and I/O's with ethylene glycol (automotive) antifreeze.
Almost no matter what you do, some of this stuff is going to end 
up in the water or on the ground at spring startup.  And from what
little I know (about anything), spilled antifreeze is more of an
environmental problem than spilled oil.

So in that light, I've decided to give up powerboating, and take up
sailing.



NOT!  I'm a day early for April fool's day.  So sue me...  8*)

Rick

    What does ethylene glycol do to the environment? I know it has a 
    neg impact, but how?
    
    Jeff

    This is actually a "de-winterizing" question. I used the
    environmentally safe anti-freeze last Fall in my 5.7L Merc sterndrive.
    I do not want to pump 4 gallons into the Lake so I plan to flush it out
    before launch. My question is what to do with it after I catch most of
    it in a bucket? I feel funny about just dumping it somewhere. Thanks.
    
    Larry

re                      <<< Note 517.129 by SALEM::GILMAN >>>
>                                -< Antifreeze >-

>    What does ethylene glycol do to the environment? I know it has a 
>    neg impact, but how?

	Dunno, but I'll guess;

	Strips the paint off refrigerators    ?

	Disolves refrigerator insulating foam  ?

	Kills pirahnas  (sp ?) especially in the Merrimac

	Rots wet suits  ?
 
	Disolves through hull - below water line fittings, especially 
	if they're through bolted and glassed in.

	Corrodes under water neon marker lights
	




	Sorry, its been a fun week around here )-;      

	Reg

    Enough of it would keep the Merrimack River from freezing so that
    certain un-named noters could try to set a new record for winter
    skiing :-)
    
    Seriously, why not filter it and save it for next year?
    Wayne

    
    	As for using this year's "Pink" antifreeze next year........
    
    	Mine came out of the block into it's former bottle, pretty
    scuzzy looking. Not sure I'd want to put it back into the block
    next winter, even strained.....
    
    	I know I've brought this up before, but I still wonder about
    the effectiveness of the "pink" stuff's corrosion protection. Of
    course the fact that my motor has 830 hours on it could have a
    bearing on the amount of internal rust I'm seeing....
    
    Rick
    
    Hey Reg, No apology needed... I think we all got cabin FeVeR real bad!
    
    	If we all pour our antifreeze down the drain, it will eventually
    end up in the river, anyway... :-) Better place it in the FREEZER
    first!
    

    Ethylene Glycol kills dogs and cats and anything else that comes along.
    
    Apparently it has an appealing (sweet) taste, but it causes death by
    destroying (completely plugging up?) the kidneys.
    
    Bill
    

    If anti-freeze is listed as a hazardous waste like it probably should
    be, then I would think that the law would require sellers of the
    product to offer a means for returning the old stuff, just like oil.
    I do know that the radiator shop in Nashua that installed a new
    radiator in my Ranger had a collection tank for the old stuff.  They
    probably sell it to someone who filters and refines it.
    Wayne

    The pink stuff is Propylene Glycol which is not toxic like its cousin
    Ethylene Glycol (which is usually greenish). I don't know what the
    disposal implications are, but they are not of the same order as
    Ethylene Glycol.
    
    /jim

    Take a look at some of the liquid medicines for colds and you will
    find propylene glycol listed as an ingredient.
    
    Wayne

    Also certain French wines used this as a sweetner.  There was a big
    to do about this a couple years back.
    
    ah von new son tay,
    
    Carl

	Moved by moderator
    	------------------
    
              <<< VICKI::SIE$DATA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Powerboats >-
================================================================================
Note 1117.0        RECIPE DESIRED FOR WINTERIZING A MERCRUISER           1 reply
PULMAN::PLX95::YOUNIE                                12 lines   4-OCT-1993 12:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	I was wondering if anyone has a simple "recipe" for winterizing a 
	205HP Mercruiser Alpha engine. I've been having the marina do it in 
	the past, but when I got it de-winterized this past spring I watched 
	what the person was doing. What he did appeared pretty 
	straightforward ( hooked up the battery, reattached rubber hoses, and 
	put in some brass fittings ). I would think the reverse is all that 
	needs to be done for winterizing the engine. If I can save the
	$45 they've been charging, that would be great.

	Thanks for any input.

	-- Dick Paciulan

	Moved by moderator
    	------------------
    
              <<< VICKI::SIE$DATA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Powerboats >-
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Note 1117.1        RECIPE DESIRED FOR WINTERIZING A MERCRUISER            1 of 1
SALEM::NORCROSS_W                                     2 lines   4-OCT-1993 12:59
                               -< Send mailstop >-
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    Send me your mailstop offline and I'll mail you a winterizer checklist.
    Wayne

    Wayne, Received your winterizing checklist today...thanks
    
    
                                                        DWO Joe

    On fogging oil?
    
    Can Marvel Mystery oil be used as a susbtitute for fogging oil?
    
    Mark

When I put my '65 Correct Craft Mustang to bed for the winter, I start it up and
run it for about 15 minutes to get it nice and warm.  Then I shut it down, fill
the pail (i.e. "lake") with 50/50 anti-freeze, start it back up and while the
pail's contents gets sucked into the motor I squirt (rather feverishly, I might
add) Marvel Mystery oil into the carb.  I'm usually forced to toy with the
throttle while I'm doing this since it wants to stall.  It turns out that with 2
gallons of anti-freeze (4 gallons total with the 50/50 mixture), by the time the
engine is full of anti-freeze, it's just beginning to burn the mystery oil (it
starts to blow smoke out the exhaust).  Once the pail is empty, I shut it down
and it's all over.  Back the boat into the garage and say "Adieu!" till spring.

As usual, your mileage may vary.

...Roger...

    I suppose the fogging oil is probably only a "Marvel Mystery Oil" type 
    substance in a spray can which makes it more convenient for me since
    I'm spraying while running the boat up on the trailer for the final
    time.  I don't use anti-freeze so I have no need to start it up again
    at home.
    I've had great luck with Marvel Mystery oil whenever I have used it
    including un-siezing two antique car engines and if Roger uses it, it
    must be good.  (How else can he keep his toy running year after year!)
    Wayne 

    No, Marvel Mystery oil is nothing like fogging oil. Fogging oil is
    thick so that its coating remains all winter and it also must be
    compatable with 2 cycle oil. 
    
      If you're trying to find a cheaper oil to use for fogging, just ask
    yourself if you're willing to live with the results if it doesn't work.
    Can you say rusted bearings and rust-seized cylinders?
    
    				Kenny

    Yes I was looking for an alternative to fogging oil.  I'm new to all
    this and that is why I throw out all these questions.  Often times
    something packaged and called one thing is really the same as something
    else readily available at a local (in this case non_marine) store.  

    I will buy the fogging oil this week.  Is there different fogging oil
    for Mercury and Evinrude outboards or can the same be used?  I have
    to treat both of these.  Also, I haven't examined the air intake on
    these outboards yet, but how does one manage to effectively spray 3
    separate carbs at once?
    
    Thanks for your help with all my "basic" questions!  Mark

    
      Unless you are using some type of strange oil for your Merc and
    Evinrude, you can certainly use the same fogging oil. (Evinrude and
    Merc oils are completely compatable)
    
      As far as getting the oil into the carbs well, its best to take the
    face off the air intake. That allows you to spray directly into the
    carb throats.
    
      Spray the oil in as fast as you can while the engine is at a fast
    idle, alternating between all the carbs. Make SURE you shut the engine
    off quickly (Immediately when you finish spraying), before the fogging
    oil can be burned off. (I usually have a helper at the keyswitch)
    
    				Kenny

    talking to a guy at West Marine last week, he told me when he flushes
    his outboards (small ones , ie < 10 hp), he uses a trashcan and a
    sawhorse or a 2x4 between 2 trees, and runs it a while. But he also
    said he first goes to a dive shop and gets some stuff used by scuba
    folks to flush salt reside out of their gear. He addes this to the
    trashcan full of water. He figures this help flush out salt deposits.
    
    Anyone else ever try this??
    
    Also, he said never replace the impeller in fall. Wait till Spring so
    it doesn't have the whole winter to take a funny shape .

	Not sure about what the "diver's Stuff" would do for flushing out
salt, but if a motor has been in salt, attempts should certainly be made
to flush out as much as possible. Whether this is done by just running
fresh water thru the motor or with some magical solution, I guess doesn't
matter as long as the magical solution doesn't harm anything like the seals.
(or the walruses :-) )

	
>    Also, he said never replace the impeller in fall. Wait till Spring so
>    it doesn't have the whole winter to take a funny shape .

	Absolutely, the impellor will take a "set" if left in it's housing
all winter long. Leaving it "un-housed" will allow it to be more flexible
and much more useful upon recommisioning.

Rick

ps Of course storage in a Glad freezer bag, wrapped tightly and placed
in the back of your freezer is always the best answer for impellors! :-)

    When my cover is on, the fuel vent is covered. I'm concerned about
    fumes building up inside the boat over the winter. I was thinking about
    a tube that extends the vent down the side of the boat.  Is this
    necessary?  I'd prefer not to do it, as it would leave a gap on either
    side of the cover - just big enough for wildlife to enter.
    
    Also, mothballs seem to be the choice for keeping out the animals.
    Will they last the winter?  I had some mice take residence on my
    rear swim platform - warm, dry, spacious!
    
    Chris

    
    Can't comment on the cover issue (I have canvas which breaths..) but
    the mothballs worked for me over last winter. Had mice, got mothballs,
    got rid of mice. Lasted till april. Place em in a small plastic cup or
    dish so they don't damage deck, etc...
    
    

I believe if you take out your drain plug, which you should anyway to
let snowmelt and rain out, then any gasoline vapors will also drain
out since they are heavier than air.  Anyway, that is what I do.

Paul
    
    

    
    Howdy,
    
    As part of the (dreaded) winterization of my bassboat, 
    I changed the lower unit oil on my '86 Merc 75 hp.
    motor.  When I added the new oil, I filled the lower
    unit the proper way (i.e. from the bottom drain hole
    until the oil leaked out the vent).  
    
    When all was said and done, I had only used a little 
    of the oil (less than a pint).  Does this sound right?  
    I know the unit was drained completely, as it sat open 
    for over an hour in relatively warm weather.  I don't
    have the service manual handy, and was wondering if
    anyone know what the capacity should be.
    
    Thanks...
    
    Gusman   (who's already looking forward to spring).
    
    

    Gus,
    
    Don't know about a 75hp, but my 25hp Merc uses very little.  I would
    not expect that much is needed.  As long as you squeezed it in from the
    lower drain hole until it exited the top hole, you're OK.
    
    Joe