Conference vicki::boats

    
    Garry
    
    I purchased a Sunbird, Corsair, V6 from Wilderness Marine this past
    April. You must be dealing with either Gerry or Jim the owner. A
    few things. When I bought the boat it came with a Bimini top, a
    mooring cover, a horn to name a few. When I picked up the boat the
    mooring cover wasnt with it, and the horn was missing. Gerry is
    a nice kid but he promises the world to keep you happy. I Still
    dont have either item. The covers have had a million reasons for
    not coming in so they gave me a used one for now. Jim the owner
    told me the boat dont come with a horn and Gerry should'nt have
    promised me one but I will get it. Also when I picked it up there
    were several digs in the hull and a large section of GEL coat was
    scraped off on the bottom. Shipping problem. I made all my arraingments
    through Gerry to get things fixed which turned out to be my first
    mistake. I set up an appointment to get the items fixed, Gerry says
    no problem it'll be done. A week after I brought it up I get a call
    that it will be a couple of days more. I went up to get the boat
    and Jim the owner is there, Gerrys day off. Jim tells me they cant
    do GEL coat until the fall, the horns and mooring covers are on
    order. All that was done was they tightened the loose cleat on the
    bow. It did rain for two weeks during that time so Jim said he couldnt
    get the work done because the garage was full with boats that had
    large items to be worked. I was pissed to say the least and we had
    some words. Later we appologized for our yelling and settled things
    in a civilized manner. Jim told me dont deal with Gerry after the
    sale. Jim is the service manager and he will handle all problems.
    He did have a talk with Gerry while I was there and he appologized
    to me also.
    
    Here is the good part. Fourth time out in the boat a kid on a jet
    ski cuts across by bow and runs me into a rock in the channel. Bing
    goes the prop., but not just the prop the lower outdrive was damaged
    and the prop shaft snapped. I nearly died. I call Wilderness Marine
    and talk with Jim. He had my  boat in the next day, I had my insurance
    adjuster go down to see him the make an agreement and I had the
    whole lower unit replaced and ready in less than a week. No lost
    boating time. Jim as it turns out is a decent person and he did
    spend alot of time explaining to me the problems they had this year
    getting boats ready for the upcoming season and getting all there
    deliveries done. He wrote up an agreement to do all my GEL coat
    work after the summer is over and he remaining items will be done
    before the end of June.
    
    The boat. I love it, it is nice looking, the engine is sweet the
    hull deep and the handling is good. I did alot of looking and for
    the dollar I thought the Sunbird was the one I wanted. 
    
    Let me know how you make out and I'll keep you informed on how mine
    is running. One other thing. I will never pay for anything in full
    again until I pick it up. Hold out on full payment. Keep something
    for your own protection until your satisfied. If it aint right dont
    pick it up.
    
    BIll

	Thanks for the info Bill.  I went there last night and signed on
the dotted line.  I have been dealing with Jerry.  My understanding is that Jim
is the owner, is this so?? I only put VERY short money down and will pay the
rest upon delivery.  I bought the EUROSPORT II (20') with the OMC 5.7L "King
Cobra I/O setup.  We looked at the EUROSPORT I (18') but Jerry/Jim make the II
price very close as they had that the II config I wanted ON THE LOT and did
not want to order another boat this late in the year.

	I did get the works (top, sides, mooring cover, etc) and I will double
check everything before handing over the rest of the $$$$.  They really do move
a large volume thru there as every time I have been there they have sold at
least 1 boat, and I have been up there 3 times in the last week!!

	The EUROSPORT II SL is 20'+L x 8'W.  My last rig was an 18' and I did
want to move up.  The hull/handling chara. were excellent in my ole 18' and I
really liked that! The SUNBIRD has what I consider an excess amount of High
Impact padding which is what we were looking for.  In addition SUNBIRD is one
of only a few manuf. that offers a bowrider with a rear bench seat, swim
platform as part of the hull, V8, REAL guages (not that HI-TECH crap around),
and a very soft, durable interior.

	After pricing boats over the last 2 months I believe SUNBIRD
is the best buy for the money.  Hope it performs as good!  The hull design is
a semi-to-shallow V with the appropriate chimes to "byte" on those performance
turns.  The weight dist. looks good and the controls/instruments are layed out
for high speed monitoring as opposed to social trolling with ^-shaped notches
cut in the guages (ala STARCRAFT) that are +/- 5% accuracy.

	My scheduled pickup date is June 25th, because of logistics problems
on my end.  I will post the results of the first outing as I plan to do some
serious prop investigation.  I am planning on taking it to Winni for that
outing ONLY BECAUSE I have a friend that will allow me to "try" a number of
props. BEFORE BUYING!  I am looking initially a 4-blade config. but with the
torque that the engine has I can also look at 3-blades without losing that
precious performance!


			Cheers!

			Garry "no longer mixing oil/gas" Baer

	Soooooooo ....... what was the final price ?  


	Inquiring minds want to know !

    Rick
    When I finally decided to buy a boat I must have looked at a million
    of them. I went to the boat shows and to several marinas and one
    thing I found was that the prices on a boat and trailer package
    varied little. They all offer different extras, such as canvas or
    mooring covers, etc, but a couple hundred dollars was the difference
    in cost. I saw some good deals at shows from marinas up at Winni
    and near Sunapee but I really wanted to buy close to home for service
    reasons and Wilderness had the package I wanted close to home. Looking
    at boats was like looking at wallpaper the more I looked the more I couldnt
    decide what I wanted. There are some good deals and some that just
    make it but overall I didnt find much difference. One reason I did
    buy at Wilderness was because the kid Gerry did not try to sell
    me boat before I was ready but took the time twice to go over all
    the questions I had while looking. I wish I had more to over you
    on this but its all a matter of opinion. Good luck, I hope you find
    what you want.
    
    Bill 

	Gauch bros??  I strongly recommend talking to Jerry Masseur at
Wilderness.  He is the manager and a great guy to work with.  If you do your
homework and approach him as a knowledgeable boating type, he will treat you
well.

	I have dealt with Gauch before and while they have good
prices (like Dougie used to) there is a good reason for it.  They need the
business.  Their service department left me hanging for an entire season
once.  Tough to get repeat business like that.  Their attitude changes abruptly
when you go back under warrenty also.  Call me directly for details.

	Anyway, needless to say, there were some delays in picking up my
NEW sunbird.  However, I am scheduled to sign the papers tomorrow night
and pick the boat up on Sat.  Jerry is a upstanding guy to deal with and
as long as you tell him and agree on your expectations, you will have no
problems.  They are a growing marina and have a very good selection of
boats.  Clearly they are having trouble servicing the demand for the boats
they have.  If you know what you are doing, their prices cannot be beat for
the level of QUALITY their boats have to offer.  Clearly you can find cheaper
boats, but not of the SUNBIRD option/hull offering in their price range.
Again I do all my own service so their service dept really did not enter into
my decision as it is still in a shed until the new building is finished.

	If all goes according to plan the following weekend will be my first
voyage, a visit to my friends on Winni.  I will post my trial results and
espically in light of the recient comments in Trailer Boat mag. that tested
the 4winns and said it is not as responsive as the SUNBIRD!!!

	Garry

    I think that this sounds like a situation waiting to boil over.
    
    One dealer denies what is advertised by the manufacturer in all the
    boating magaszines (i.e., the package deal for $8995 includes
    boat/motor/trailer).  Whether he is dishonest or ignorant, it doesn't
    matter, because you'll have to do all the work to get what you deserve,
    and after that fight you won't even think about asking for any of the
    typical bennies that go along with a boat purchase - though I'll admit
    there won't be many on an inexpensive package deal like this.  What
    else doesn't he know or not telling you about?
    
    The other dealer bends over backwards to get you to buy, but after
    that you can't expect to get the level service you need.
    
    My #1 rule when buying a new car is to shop dealer first, find the best
    one, and then buy the product they sell.  It may not be the make/model
    that is #1 on your list, but since most name brand products are more
    alike than different these days it is easier to live with a well
    maintained/repaired #2 or #3 than a ill repaired/or even dealer abused
    #1 choice.  I've seen it happen.  I would think that the same logic
    could be applied to boats, albeit with a more restricted selection of
    dealers.
    
    john 

    I think boat dealers are those that failed at selling new/used cars.
    Independant and built to stay that way. 

    my .02 cents///........
    
    on Gauch definitely not.  i had an ome tach that failed after 2
    weeks of use. i bought it elsewhere, about 50 miles west of
    Gauch. I called OMC and asked if i could return to any Johnson
    /Evinrude dealer. no problem. I went to Gauch he not only
    refused to exchange it, he would not even let me use the 
    phone to call evinrude at my expense, and asked me to leave.
    I went to a phone called evinrude, within 5 minutes Gauch
    called me and expalained how confused he was, and that
    he would be more than happy to exchnage the unit.
    
    I believe the rep. reminded him of his franchise agreement.
    
    Dealers like this are not consistent and from what i can
    gather should not have a franchise.  Note he don't carry
    Honda or Yamaha.
    
    jim.

RE: .7
 >> My #1 rule when buying a new car is to shop dealer first, find the best
 >> one, and then buy the product they sell.  It may not be the make/model
 >> that is #1 on your list, but since most name brand products are more
 >> alike than different these days it is easier to live with a well

Good advice except for one thing. I've researched the purchase of my next
boat for a while, and the Sunbird SPL 174 meets my needs and is almost
alone in its class. I definitely want a cuddy cabin, but am limited in
size and weight by the fact that I own a small pickup with a 2000 lb. towing
limit. I would really like a 19'cuddy cabin, but with trailer and accesories
they weigh up around 3000 lbs. The only other brand that I am aware of that
builds a 17' cuddy is Bayliner. Need I say more?

I guess I'll have to look a little further for another Sunbird dealer. So
far my two options are one which gives me a load sales b.s., and another
who won't service it after the sale. Great choices.  :-(

Another option may be to go back to Wilderness and ask to speak with someone
other than Bill. I think this guy thought he was dealing with someone who
just jumped off the cabbage truck. He was feeling a little pressure when he
realized that I probably knew more about the prices and the boat itself than
he did. He really turned me off with his sales strategy of assuming that the
guy he's talking with knows nothing about the product or prices. It'll back-
fire every time if the customer knows what he's talking about. I know, because
I may end up buying from Wilderness but it will definitely not be from Bill.


Rick W.

    
    	Ward's Boat Shop in Ossipee, NH is a Sunbird Dealer. 
    (Also a Correct Craft Dealer)..No real complaints about them,
    I'm on my third boat from them..
    
    Rick

    
    	Congrats Garry, that's a nice boat you have there (I snuck out
    a little bit early on friday and took a peek).  Hope You'll be very
    happy with it, I'm sure you will.
    
    	Good Luck, hope to see you on the Water(_ __ ___ _____)
    
    	Reg
    

	The saga continues....


	Saturday I showed up to take delivery on my NEW sunbird and it was
polished, ready, and waiting.  After haveing been thru this before and not
being a trusting sort, I un-zipped the cover and climbed aboard to "check
things out".  Jerry (sales mgr) stated that it had been field-tested in a
local lake and perfact.  Well:

	- the trim gauge was pegged and did not work
	- the NAVIGATION lights (stern) did not work
	- the trailer tongue had not been shortened
	- there was oil dripping down from the prop
	- the prop had play in it
	- the battery was dead

	Needless to say I did not take delivery of the boat.  I just called
Wilderness and they said it was "all better" now and I could pick it up.
Additional update tomorrow after I drive there tonight, so stay tuned...
So far - 1 demerit for their service dept.!

					Garry

	PART II, Chapter 1, "Now what..."

	Well The boat was ready and all was fixed as promised EXCEPT the
trailer tongue was not shortened.  At this point I could live with that so
I hooked it up.  Wilderness closed at 6pm on Monday and I got there at
7pm.  Jerry had gone home to get dinner, but was pulling back into the 
yard as I got there.  That was a good jester to come back even though the
clerk I talked to at 5pm said Jerry would not be there.

	Well after the usual 15 minutes of fine adjustments I was on the raod
and after a stop for gas, the boat was finally in my yard!  After re-arranging
the entire yard to fit everything, I broke out the "headphones" and prepared
to start her up. NOTHING BUT CLICK-CLICK-CLICK.  After 45 minutes of
troubleshooting it seems that the battery will not hold more than a "token"
charge.  I could get the motor to start by jumping it, but the volt meter
showed that the battery was taking all the juice it could get and not comming
back to life.

	NEEEEEEDLESS to say, I was a little on edge when talking to Jerry this
AM.  He is sending a guy down today to MY HOUSE to swap the battery and ensure
that the charging system is OK.  I will be testing their workmanship tonight
so stay tuned for an update tomorrow.

	We are suppose to be on WINNI Friday night going to my friend's island.
The last thing I want to happen with a NEW boat and my 4 month-old is to get
stranded in the middle of WINNI!  It is a sad state of affairs when the buyer
can setup a boat better and with greater attention to details than the Marina
that stands the most to gain via good PR.  Anyway, As soon as they get their
act together and get the details right, I should have my shop manual in on the
boat and motor.  I do not plan to have anyone service it after the 20 Hour
checkup because of this lack of competence.  It is like buying an American Car
back in the late 70's.  Enough said.

	HOWEVER, with all that I still like the boat.  The layout, Hull
design, and controls are just what the doctor ordered.  There is nothing
that the dealer has done that can't be fixed by a good solid weekend in
the front yard.  There are a few switches on the dash that are powered and
wired but not hooked to anything like (CABIN) and (INTERIOR LIGHTS) and
(HORN).  Jerry claims that they are options, and I claim that I will buy
the options somewhere else and install them myself.

	Stay tuned...

				Garry (still swiming) Baer

RE: The saga continues...

Rick,
Now that I've heard about the wonderful service departments at both
Gauch  Bros. and Wilderness, please tell me more about Ward's Boat
Shop. How do I get there?


Rick W.

    I stopped in at Wilderness last Saturday, looking for
    MerCruiser parts.  According to the woman I spoke to,
    the 'parts' they had for sale were limited to two-cycle
    oil.

    Quite extensive...

    	- Lee

    
    
    re: .15
    
    	Rick,
    
    		Ward's Boat shop is in Ossippee, NH. It's just
    off route 16. Watch for a right turn heading north *AFTER*
    the route 25 east exit.
    
    		My only warning would be that they have recently
    expanded and the guy that always serviced my boats has left.
    Might be a good idea to get some info on the depth and
    experience in the service department now. I will check
    this myself the next time I'm over there.
    
    Rick

    re .17	.....and what is their stock of CCs like this week ?
    
    	Reg	{Oh, just curious, Y'know ?}
    

    
    
    re: Reg,
    
    	Ward's usually has a good selection of CCs, last time I was
    there they had 1 Nautique, 1 Dominique and 2 Martiniques (1 open bow
    and 1 closed) in the showroom along with whatever they had outside
    and in storage.
    
    Rick
    
    	Isn't this supposed to be a Sunbird note? :-)

    
    Garry,
    
    If it will make you feel any better the same type of thing happened
    to me this spring.  I got my boat out of storage and on the bill
    was an $8 charge for charging my battery.  I did not remember asking
    for that but figured it probably needed it.  Well the next day with
    all my friends over ready for the first ride of the season, I try
    to start the boat and get nothing. I was not happy.  I came to find
    out that the dealer did charge it and was able to start the boat
    (it was warm when I picked it up) but the charge didn't hold.  He
    said he could do some sort of "turbo" charge that real "zaps" the
    battery.  Well he did and I have had no problems since.  I do not
    real 'blame' the dealer.  In your case I think the fact that they
    are coming out to your house to try to fix the problem says alot
    for their desire to keep you satisfied.
    
    Good luck with your new boat,
    
    Mike Smith
    
    PS a good long pair of jumper cables could be a
       good piece of insurance.
    
    

    
    
    I always wondered.....
    
        Should jumper cables be considered a piece 'standard equip.' on
        power boats?
    
    MArk
    
    

    re .21	Well, given that you can't bump start it like a car
    or motorcycle with a manual transmission....   ....mainly because
    there are no hills on the water to run a boat down, it would seem
    to make sense.
    
    	Since I trailer my boat just about everywhere I decided to add
    another connector to the back of the tow vehicle with + & - 12V
    that I connect to a lead from the boat, this gives at least 20 minutes
    charge en route, usually over 1/2 hour by the time remember EVERYTHING
    and go back for it.
    
    			|--------normal 4 wire connector
    9 pin connector-----|
    			|-------2 wire connector to boat battery
    			|
    			|-----planned splice for trailer back up lights
			|
    			|----whatever else I might add 
    				(system expansion slot, donchaknow ?)

    	This gives me a compatable trailer lighting hook-up so I can
    steal a new Correct Craft or any other standard trailer with a 2
    inch ball and 4 wire hook_up if the opportunity ever arises {I'm lookin}.
    
	Reg
    

    re .22
    >I'm lookin...
    
    Rick, keep that new CC under cover... :-}
    
    					-mike-

    Re .17
    
    Rick, what's the name of the mechanic who left Wards?  Westward
    Shores Campground has a new mechanic this year, and he used to work
    at Wards.  I can't remember his name right now, but so far all I've
    heard is good things about him.
    
    I camp at Westward Shores, have been for 11 years now.  They have
    a marina on the lake, and the guy who used to work there now works
    in the parts dept for Wards.  His name is Tom Galante, older guy
    with grey hair and glasses.  
    
    I've been looking for a used boat, and I talked to Tom about what
    Wards has.  He told me they are over-priced in general, and that
    deals will be hard to get until Sept, maybe late Oct.  Barry, the
    owner, is pushing sales over maintenance, too.  Maybe not
    intentionally, but it comes out that way.
    
    
    Lee
    
    

    
    re: .24
    
    	The mechanic's name is Kirk, and he is top notch, it's a
    shame that Barry obviously pissed him off for some reason.
    
    	I'll have to defend Barry a little here... First, Tom
    is right Ward's is overpriced, but all dealers are.
    And #2... I bought all three boats mid summer and didn't
    pay anywhere near the "asking" price for any of them.
    
    	Now.. one place I can't defend Barry is in the sales
    area.. he *is* into sales, might be driven by the fact that
    he owns the place?!?!? This is exactly my I brought up the
    point about Kirk.... Barry only sells and I'd want to 
    know who does the real work these days.
    
    >>Rick

    In answer to Reg's trailer charger, I'd think you'd want to current
    limit the battery charging wire.  If you had a dead battery on the
    boat, you could just about melt any reasonable sized wire...
    
    John

    re .23	Thanks for pointing out my editorial error in .22, ahem ! 
    Of course, it should have read,  
    
    	"......steal A DEAL ON a Correct Craft
		     ---------
		      ^  ^  ^   this got stuck in my cut/paste buffer.

    	Reg
    
    

	Jerry (Wilderness Marina) DID send a mechanic out to my house yesterday
and they swapped the battery and tested it (using my headphones).  I am
impressed as most marina's I know would never send someone out even on a NEW
boat.  My faith in their comittment to their customers has been restored.

	I have now put 2 hours of breakin time on the motor in my yard.  No
sense testing fate out in the real world.  Everything seems to be fully
operational and now working w/o a flaw.  The trailer registration is all set
and I have my NH registration, now I pray for sun!

	BTW, I contacted the Scarborough (Maine) Town Hall to obtain a VISITING
Maine registration (vacation trip there in August) and the lady was very nice
and helpful.  If anyone is interested in a 70 day temp. Maine registration,
see the NH/MASS REGISTRATION topic for the phone #.

			Cheers

			Garry
	

Moved By Moderator
    
                  <<< VICKI::CVG$DATA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
                              -<   PowerBoats   >-
================================================================================
Note 92.0                       SUNBIRD COMMENTS                      No replies
FINALY::HATALSRN                                     18 lines  29-JUL-1988 14:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I AM VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE SUNBIRD BOATS, I LIVE ABOUT 5 MILES
    FROM WHERE THEY BUILD THEM. I ALSO HAVE A FREIND WHO WORKS AT THE
    PLANT IN THE ACTUAL MANUFACTURING DEPT.
    	I AM NOT TOO IMPRESSED WITH THE QUALITY OF THE BOAT OR THE TECHNIQE
    USED TO BUILD THE HULL. THEY USE A "CHOPPER GUN" TO BLOW IN THE
    FIBERGLASS TO BUILD THE HULL. THIS IS A CHEAPER,LESS STRONG METHOD
    TO BUILD THE HULL THAN THE OLD FASHIONED WAY OF A HAND LAID
    FIBERGLASS. I HAVE TOURED THEIR FACTORY AND WAS NOT OVERLY IMPRESSED
    WITH THEIR QC STANDERDS.       		 
    	ONE THING I DO LIKE IS THE OUT-DRIVE THEY USE, THE MERC-CRUISER,
    A VERY NICE WORKING I/O. & ALSO THE PRICE. I GUESS YOU GET WHAT
    YOU PAY FOR.
    	I PERSONALLY LIKE THE GLASSMASTER MADE IN LEXINGTON,S.C. OR
    THE BOSTON WALER OR GRADY WHITE.BUT, ON A LIMETED BUDGET A SUNBIRD
    WOULD WORK FINE.ALTHOUGH IT MIGHT NOT LAST AS LONG.
    	JUST THOUGHT I WOULD PUT MY 2-CENTS WORTH IN.
    			RICK--COLUMBIA,S.C.                                                
    

RE: Note 45.29

Rick,

	That is very interesting.  The brochure I have specifically states that
the Hull's are HAND-LAYED.  In addition, all the SUNBIRD's I have seen have
OMC powered in them.

	Anyway, my first outing in my new 20' was a success.  Other than the
usual first flight problems (trailer not setup to my liking, break-in blues)
I was pleased with the boat.  It took some 4' chop by the Weirs in very good
fashion.  The boat tends to keep the nose up longer than I am used to durring
takeoff, but that might just be a factor of outboard vs I/O technology.
Power steering was a real trip the first time in close quarters docking at the
Antique Boat show on Saturday.  (Want to look like I know what I am doing
the first time out in the new rig 'dont ya know.)

	Clearly additional proping needs to be done as it appears to be over-
proped.  Best I could do was 3900 @45mph.  Specs state 4250-4800 top end
operating RPM range.  It currently has a 19", therefore a 17" is called for. 
I have access to a 4-blade HOLE-SHOT 17" SST and will probably try that next.

	Basically very happy with the hull, interior, power, performance,
rough water ride, etc.  Would highly reccomend the boat after the first
weekend.

					Cheers

					Garry

    Garry,
    
    Its very interesting that the sales writups you have for the Sunbird
    boat say it is hand layed?? The writups I recieved from various dealer
    selling Sunbird boats do not state this. Infact the reason why they
    can sell them for $8995.00 is because of the volume they can build
    without much people labor and this is due to blowing the stuff in
    a form. However, I am not saying that the boat is built wrong, I 
    don't have any idea about its structure. I am only stating what I 
    have read and heard from dealers on the way the hull is built.
    

	After dropping my boat off monday for its 20hr checkup and looking
again at the Literature I realized we are BOTH right.  The standard Sunbird
series boats are make with a chopper gun in high volume mode.  They are the
entry level, mainly outboard and small I/O models that are priced 12K and under.

	The model I have is the new EUROSPORT (I, II, & III) series that are
built to attract the middle-high end of the market (15-24K).  These boats are
hand-layed with considerable attention to details.  Numerous items that are
not offered in entry level boats, or are vastly improved, are available on
this model:

	- preimum sound system integrated into its own compartment
	- LOTS of high density padding throughout the useable interior area
	- very, very comfortable seating,
	- solid "feel" to the boat, both in handling and rough water,
	- V8 I/O ponies,
	- power steering,
	- locking "glove" compartment with dash board tray,
	- custom-fitted mooring canvas,
	- Full instrumentation,
	- 1 piece integrated swim platform,
	- 42 Gallon Gas tank
	- Sunlounger option


	Further inspection of the engine compartment, below deck storage, and
up inside the storage compartments show that the hull is indeed hand-layed.
Personally I would not buy one of the entry level boats as they do have very
light, flexable hulls (like the bayliner's).  I peaked inside one on the lot
and a quick inspection of the engine compartment tells me that it is made with
the chopper gun (very rough, looks like a "brillo pad").

	Thanks for the information about Sunbird.  I hope we just saved a
number of people from an expensive lession with an entry level Sunbird.

		Garry

    re .25
    
    Rick, I was at Ossipee this week, and talked to Kirk.  He remembered
    you, mentioned your boat, etc.
    
    Unfortunately, Westward Shores doesn't allow outside boats in for
    work.  
    
    Kirk's wife just had a baby girl this past Monday.  He was telling
    me about her, and then mentioned that he's had a very good offer
    from a place on Winnie.  Big bucks, and he's seriously thinking
    about going there, now that he has a family.
    
    If he does leave, I'll post where he's going.  Everything I've heard
    about him indicates that he's very thorough as a mechanic.  That
    blends in with someone giving him a great offer.
    
    Lee

	Well this will be my final entry about my Wilderness marina experince
as they are currently trying to finish up my 20hr checkup and I will not go
back for any other service (other than warranty work I cannot fix myself.

	They said the boat would be ready last (thursday) night.  Being a
trusting sort of guy, I called there @ 1pm and they said that it was almost
done (15 minutes work left) and YES it would be ready @ 6pm.

	6:15pm I arrived to find everyone "selling" stuff and nobody interested
in talking to me (surprize).  I located Jim only to find my boat WAS NOT ready
(surprize).  They were changing the oil filter @ 505pm only to find they did
not have a replacement.  They also were fixing the warrenty items only to find
it took longer that expected.

TRANSLATION --> they were working on something else and thought they could
finish my boat by 5.  They didn't start on it till 4:30 then found out they
had more warrenty work to do than expected 'cause the didn't read the detailed 
note I left on Monday with the boat until 4:30pm.


	NEEDLESS to say I was not happy.  Nobody seemed too concerned as they
already have my $$$$ and the 20hr/warranty work does not make an more $$$.
Oh well, the good news is I have my full service manual and a local dealer
(Tri-city) that can get me parts within 48hrs.  I am very pleased with the
boat but once again another marina's service department that leaves alot
of room for improvment (surprize).  This now brings my grand total up to
15 different New England marina's I have dealt with over my life and not one
of them I would care to reccommend to a friend.  But then again, everybody in
this notesfile already has come to that conclusion.


MORALE OF THE EXPERIENCE:  Find the best deal, pay the man, drive away with
	the boat (emphasis on accelerator pedal), and service it
	yourself.  They are all (with VERY few exceptions) the same.

    There is a Sunbird Barletta cuddy 20-4 at Gausch Marine for $14K.  This
    seems like a good deal and has exactly the seating config I've been
    looking for (bench in the back of the cockpit will hold 4 kids),
    reclining pads on the cuddy top for laying around while at anchor. 
    I've never seen a 20' cuddy with an outboard (Johnson 115).  Seems
    a bit underpowered but maybe not.  30-35 mph is all I need.  
    
    This is obviously not a high end boat, but it sure seems to be a lot
    for the money.  Does anyone have anything to add about this specific
    model?  (I've read all the Sunbird and Gausch Marine notes).
    
    

      I would expect it *will* go 35mph with a 115. Don't sell an outboard
    short, one benefit they have is MUCH less weight than a comparable
    HP I/O (it would probably go slower with a 135 I/O because of the 
    additional ~300lbs. of the I/O).
    
    					Kenny 
    

Jim,
I've got the Sunbird SPL174 with Johnson 88hp ouboard.  It weighs
~1615 pounds and will do an honest 40 mph.  The Barletta 204 that
you're looking at weighs ~2165 pounds with the 115 hp motor. (I've 
got the brochure in my desk).  The power to weight ratio is 18.35 
for the SPL, 18.82 for the Barletta, so I would expect the top speed 
to be comparable.

That Barlett 204 is a neat boat, too.  I like the sunpad on the front
deck, one piece curved glass windshield, and the walkaround cuddy. I 
like my SPL174 a lot, but would trade up to the Barletta if I could 
afford it (bigger-boat-itis).  You take a real financial bath trading
up after only 1 year though.

Gauch Bros. service dept has been very good in my opinion, although
if you can talk the sales dept down more than a few hundred on the 
purchase price you're a better man than I am.  If you talk to Dave 
Richardson at Gauch Bros. tell him I recommended them to you.

If you have any other specific questions feel free to send mail.

Rick Wilson

     
    Here's some information I picked up at my last boat show. This may help
    you decide if the deal you are looking at is a deal!
    
    BARLETTA 204 CUDDY W/ TRAILER & EVINRUDE 115-T/T,VRO
    
    FACTORY LIST	DEALER PREP	FREIGHT		TOTAL
    
       13,399		    350           600		14,349
    
    
    Some option prices for the 204:
    
    Camper Canvas		700
    fiberglass cockpit liner	875
    cockpit coverr		225
    bimini top			295
    galley & convience ctr	1,250
    mooring cover		300
    side curtains		 75
    aft   "   "			100
    
    
    I hope this helps,  Jim A.

I went to the N.E. Boat Show this past weekend and am beginning to recover from
the overload to my senses.  So many boats and so little money. :-(  

Anyway, there were a couple of boat lines that I'm interested in and one of them
is the Sunbird.  I've read all the previous replies to this note and would be 
interested to get an update from some of the owners on how the Sunbird has held
up over the past couple of years?

I'm considering the 185 Corsair Bowrider.  The guy I talked to was from Ward up
in Ossipee, I can't remember his name, and he said they had a couple of left
over 1990 models on which they would be willing to deal.

Comments on past experience greatly appreciated!

Gregg

    my daughter has a 15' sunbird, bought new last spring.
    
    We looked at a lot of boats before settling on this one.  I would
    say that while it might not be #1 in quality, it certainly is good 
    and provided her with a safe servicable boat.  It is also very 
    sharp looking - which when you are 15 is of primary concern.
    
    We got it in Amherst NH.  Very cooperative and helpful.
    
    

    I have a Sunbird Barletta 204.  
    
    Definitely a low to low-medium end boat.  I'd say you get about what
    you pay for and maybe a bit more.   My boat has welded rails, handlaid
    fiberglass,  teak trim and doors pretty good quality hardware, and is
    much heavier than the equivalent Bayliner (another major player in this
    price range).  The low-end Sunbirds use chopped strand  which is the
    cheapest possible way to produce fiberglass hulls.   (Lots of people
    pooh-pooh it but I don't know of any cases where such a hull actually
    failed...).
    
    The negatives on my boat are - marginal fit/finish type items,
    obviously put together quickly, lots of little things needed attention
    on delivery.  Upholstery and carpeting minimal quality.  Mickey mouse
    dashboard assembly.
    
    On the other hand the important stuff was all fine - handles very well
    in heavy weather, fittings/major mechanical items are fine.
    
    Rick Wilson  has an SPL 174 cuddy and may be able to add more.

    
    	I can comment on Ward's Boat Shop. I've dealt with them on
    3 boats now and Barry has always treated me right.
    
    Rick

As Jim mentioned earlier, I've got a 1989 SPL174.  I'm very happy 
with the boat now, but did have some initial problems that needed
tobe worked out of it.  The performance is great, the boat is a 
17'4" cuddy and will do 41+ mph with just an 88hp outboard.  The 
use of available space and the way the boat is laid out is outstanding
IMO, with so much useful space *and* a cuddy in such a compact boat.

But as mentioned above, there are a few minor problems, mostly
with the interior fit, finish, and assembly.  What's so aggravating
is that most of the things that are wrong would have taken little
or no extra time to do them right at the factory.  To be fair, I 
suspect that Sunbird is not alone in having this problem.  I saw 
some things at the boat show that amazed me, and not all of them on
entry level boats either.  After two seasons with the boat I've got 
most of the bugs worked out and have modified a few things to make 
them work better.

Among some of the the problems I've run into:
- The plastic side windows in the cuddy leaked.  They were installed
  with no sealer or gaskets whatsoever.  They also cut the ends off 
  the machine screws that hold them in place, so the windows cannot
  be easily removed for re-sealing.  The dealer just caulked around
  the windows.

_ Interior side panels were installed with wood screws and kept loosening.
  I eventually replaced them with machine screws and self locking nuts.

- The hull leaked from the day I got the boat, the bilge pump would pump
  several gallons if I turned it on every 20-30 minutes.  I found the leak 
  myself, a wood screw had been driven through the hull from the inside 
  during assembly, and then *removed*!  Fixed by the dealer.

- The automatic bilge pump did not work.  The drain hose was resting on
  top of the float, preventing it from moving.  Also, the float was stuck
  to the floor, apparently the switch was installed before the bilge paint 
  dried.This was not a good combination with the leaky hull, but fortunately
  the boat was never left in the water unattended. The dealer should have 
  caught this during prep, but didn't.

- Hard starting and too slow idle speed.  The idle mixture and throttle
  adjustment were way out of whack.  Again, a dealer prep item that was
  missed and also took two return trips to the service dept. to get it 
  right.

Overall the design of the boat is great, and now that the bugs are taken 
care of I'm real happy with it.  Most of the equipment installed in the 
boat is top quality, and the problems are related to assembly and setup.
Apparently something was miscommunicated between the design engineers and 
the assembly floor.  It was designed as a good quality boat, but wasn't
quite put together that way.  You can save some money by buying a Sunbird,
just don't be surprised if you have to do some tinkering and make a few 
modifications yourself to make things right.

Rick

Greetings!

A quick note of agreement, for the most part, to Rick's assessment of
Sunbirds.  Bought my first boat last year and had the same kinds of
problems but now am satisfied with what I got for the $$.

Problem is, I got what I asked for (bowrider), but after a season, have
discovered it wasn't what I want (cuddy cabin).

Oh well - next boat,
Joe

I was looking through my mountain of brochures again last night and both the 
1990 and 91 versions talk about the hand laid fiberglass construction in the 
Sunbird.  It doesn't distinguish between high end and low end boats.

Could it be that low end Sunbirds are no longer built using the chopped strand
technique?  Or given the somewhat negative reaction to this method is it more
likely that no boat manufacturer in their right mind would mention that they
use it?

Gregg

BTW, it was Barry, from Wards, that I talked to at the boat show and of all 
the people I talked to he and the people from Marine USA seemed to be the
straightest shooters.

    Looks like they went to handlaid for all models after the 1989 season
    as far as I can tell.
    
    Also there are manufacturers (Renken, Rinker) that advertise that they
    have chopper hulls, so at least someone's not embarassed.
    
    IMHO, there is more snakeoil in hull construction than any other part
    of boat marketing, e.g. "We use 45.8 mils of fooboo instead of the
    standard 34.8"  standard - hah.
    
    Some of the chopped strand hulls I've seen are much thicker than
    handlaid - I wouldn't be suprised if there isn't all that much
    difference but try to find someone without something to gain/lose to
    give you the straight story.
    

     There is really a difference..A copper gun spits the fiber onto the
    mold and the hope is the resin will bond and enough of the strands
    will align to create a strong bond..It usaully does create a strong
    enough bond for normal "easy use"..Hand laying insures a true bond,(as
    you lay the cloth in the direction you want, how you want, and work
    the resin in),allows the uses of triaxial, kevlar, etc. and also allows 
    you to re-enforce selected areas. You well never see a high performance
    unit, or heavy use (sea,fishing,etc.) unit made with a chopper gun.
     For a small lake unit I agree that there is probably no noticable
    difference.
    

    RE: .46
       I spent several years doing hand layup.  If it is PROPERLY done it
    will be stronger than equal thickness chopper gun layup.  Period.  If
    it is not properly done it's just another cheap hull.  There's no
    secret to it, you need proper wetting of the glass and all air removed.
    The hand layup can also give you control of the direction that the
    fibers run by using the appropriate glass cloth.  Just like plywood is
    stronger than flakeboard.  There are LOTS of variables.  Also, you have
    to ask HOW MUCH of the hull is laid by hand.  "We use hand lamination
    in all of our hulls!" may mean that they do one layer by hand and then
    fill it with a chopper gun.
       This got much longer than I planned, if anyone wants to pick what's
    left of my brain send me mail.
    					B.C.

	I have a SUNBIRD - 1988 Eurosport II.  After the initial DEALER problems
I have been very pleased with the boat.  Its no BAJA, but it was 12k less
expensive, than OWENS wanted for their "best" price...

The EUROSPORT series are the basis for the re-vamped Sunbird line now on
sale.  Many of the low-end features from the previous series did not pan out
in the market, therefore SUNBIRD eliminated their entry-level marketing and
re-positioned the EUROSPORT techniques as their main-stay.  In the mid-range
recreational bow-rider I/O market, there WAS no better all-around deal (after
2 years of shoppingon my part).

	Now, Sunbird is not a liberal with their warrenty policy as most others.
But as Jim said all the KEY stuff is good quality and should respond as designed.
Based on my last several boats I have owned, the problems were no worse (but no
better) than the BAJA, Glastron, RabCo, and Cris-Craft that I experienced.

	Basically PICK YOUR DEALER carefully, and ensure that if HE/SHE goes
out of business, you have options.  Any GOOD dealer will have taken the time
to select & know their target market, and its the DEALER after all that you
are buying, not SUNBIRD. I have spent enought years boating so that I know
the dealers and do most of my own work anyway.  In short, if you:

	1) Know your needs and clearly artuclate them when shopping
	2) buy every boat as if you plan on keeping it forever
	3) find a dealer you can believe (TRUST is a strong word in this industry)

Additionally: 

	* bring $$$
	* become friends with people who live on the water
	* Buy stock in Texaco, Sunoco, and RE-LEAD
	* subscribe to all mail-order boating scams...


Good luck

	Garry