Conference vicki::boats

    First, I'll try to ignore the snide cracks about the Coast
    Guard, and leave the flamethrower in my pocket.....
    
    As I understand your comments, you equate one or two factors
    (amount of buoyancy) with ability of a PFD to keep somebody
    alive.  Is that ALL a PFD is spozed to do.... float somebody
    high out of the water?  Nope....
    
    I wish I had the paperwork with me -- I have (somewhere in
    my musty files) a copy of an article comparing several NOT
    approved devices with approved devices.  The article gave
    what was being TESTED....  Does the device turn an UNconscious
    person (of up to such-and-such a weight) face-UP within so
    many seconds?  Does it HOLD an unconscious person face-up?
    (Remember that there are several different TYPEs of PFDs...
    one type is tested only in HOLDING a person face-up, another
    must turn them OVER [assuming they are face-down] to pass
    the test for that TYPE.)  
    
    The non-approved devices being tested for the article were
    water-ski type rigs....  all of them failed to turn an
    unconscious person over, two failed to HOLD the person
    face-up once they had put themselves in that position.  
    Yes, all three had LOTS of buoyancy.....  would they
    save a person's life?  Not if they weren't able to help
    position their body in the water....    
    
    Yes, I have been in situations where "the rules" seemed
    ridiculous.  A boatload of scuba divers, all in custom-fitted
    wet suits (wearing them) well suited to the cold waters, 
    lots of buoyancy (not wearing weight belts yet), some with
    horse-collar Buoyancy Compensators on already.... and we
    STILL had to squeeze in an approved PFD for each of us!
    Would we have been safe in our diving rigs?  Yes.  Would 
    the gear we had on have saved our lives? If we were
    conscious, yes.....  Would a Coast Guard person have been
    right to ticket us had we left the PFDs at the dock?  Yes....
    
    				- Ed -

    The claim is not that buoyancy per se is equal to safety.
    
    Various testing of USCG jackets has demonstrated that they don't
    perform as advertised in real life, often failing to keep an
    unconscious person's face clear of the water.
    
    I don't have the article any more, but if you were to call Boat US's
    customer service number at 703-823-9550, I'm sure they'll send copies
    of the two articles they published in Boating Equipment Reports on
    testing of USCG approved and some unapproved PFD's.
    
    If you read National Fisherman, you'll see plenty of discussion of the
    inadequacies of USCG approved PFD's.

    Consumer Reports did a run down on (Type 3?) life jackets within
    the last year or two.
    
    Carl

    Keep in mind what the Coast Guard's point of view is on this matter.
    They do not claim that all USCG approved PFDs are superior at keeping
    one afloat over all non-USCG approved PFDs. As previously mentioned,
    there are multiple classes of pfds with a different intent for each
    class. The type III vest is the most comfortable, least bulky of any of
    the non-inflatables. It also has the least effective bouyancy. The USCG
    folks are aware that a very small % of adult boaters wear any pfd for
    any % of time they are on the water. They feel that wearing a type III 
    vest in low risk (quick rescue likely) will save many lives over
    wearing no PFD. That is not to say that a type III is appropriate for
    all situations and conditions. At times they wear type I pfds
    themselves.
    
    Bill
    

    As far as I know, (have to check my info) the only devices that will
    keep a person face up in the water are type I and II PFDs. Why all the
    fuss anyway? Why not just do what the law says and KNOW you are as safe
    as you can be? (sounds like my 18 year old son!)
    
    Don

re .5:

The test results I recall seeing show that Type II PFDs won't turn an 
unconscious person face up. 

    What do you mean, do what the law says? The law around here says you
    will have a pfd within easy reach, which won't do a thing for you if
    you fall overboard or get hit in the head while not wearing one.
    
    Alan (.5) is correct. A type I should turn you face up. A type II
    should keep you face up if you are already in that position, and the
    conditions aren't too severe.
    
    If you are advocating always wearing a type I, be aware that they
    are quite bulky and uncomfortable, and even the most parnoid adult
    is likely to wear one except under bad weather/sea conditions.
    Children can be made to wear them, but only because their opinion
    doesn't count.
    
    Bill
    
    

Any data out there regarding the auto inflateable "suspender" type of PFD?

I know that they aren't CG approved (at least the single CO2) type, but 
they certainly appear to be a practical solution to having something that 
can be comfortably worn 100% of the time.  

I just purchased one to try out this summer.  In any case approved PFD's 
are always available in my boat.

Thoughts, opinions?

Carl

Note 699.8

>>Any data out there regarding the auto inflateable "suspender" type of PFD?

These are Type V PFD's, and are called hybrids.  According to a boating safety
class I took recently, they are Coast Guard approved but *only* if you are
wearing it at all times.  In other words, if all you have on board are type V
PFDs and they are stowed away, you will be ticketed for not having any PFDs 
on board.

Rick W.

In terms of data requested I meant actual experiences, not whether they are 
Coast Guard approved....

Thanks

Carl

RE: .9

>
>These are Type V PFD's, and are called hybrids.  According to a boating safety
>class I took recently, they are Coast Guard approved but *only* if you are
>wearing it at all times.  In other words, if all you have on board are type V
>PFDs and they are stowed away, you will be ticketed for not having any PFDs 
>on board.
>
>Rick W.

    Type-V PFDs are nothing more than Mae Wests, redesigned to meet the
    fashionable demands of a "yuppie" boating society.  The Mae West was
    the PFD of choice for the USAF when I found myself in the middle of
    Chagras in Panama for 7 hours.  Mine, unfortunately, had a slow leak.
    Mind you, the water was calm, and relatively warm (87 degrees) as I
    manually inflated the Mae West at about 20-minute intervals.  After the
    four-hour mark, I was quite tired, and it took longer for me to inflate
    the chambers; almost to the point where I was never comfortably
    buoyant.
    
    Transfer this entire scene to the North Atlantic, where water
    temeratures rarely exceed 60 degrees, even in Summer, and normal sea
    conditions are one to two feet -- I wouldn't be writing this note.  If
    I'd have been hurt or unconscious ... perish the thought.
    
    The Kapoc and buoyant fillers found in a Type-I and -II PFDs remain
    buoyant for a considerable time, if well maintained and dried between
    immersions (newer fillers are chips encased in plastic).
    
    I operate my boat in the mouth of the Merrimac River, and I wouldn't
    trust my life to anything less than a Type-I.  I wear a type-III as a
    matter of course, especially when I fish alone.  However, the Type-I is
    "ON Deck," pre-fitted, and ready to toss on, when I enter the mouth of
    the River, or when sea conditions indicate caution.
    
    An inflatable would be more comfortable, granted.  But I dread the
    thought of having to identify a friend or family member in a faulty
    Type-V, even if they looked good wearing it.  And, with over 18 years
    in the Coast Guard, I've seen my share, and heard my share, and felt my
    share.  No sir.  Life before liberty, on my boat.
    
    
    	-ETC-

It's never too early to plan for next season.  Next spring we'll be 
needing a life jacket for a newborn infant.  The smallest I've seen
are for babies about 20 or 30 lbs, has anyone seen anything smaller?

I'd like to pick one up in time for Christmas. The baby's not due
til March, but I think the wife would get a kick out of it.

Rick

    	Bass Pro Shops lists a "Heads Up Vest" in a size rated for "under
    30lbs."  How much under 30 is another question.  It has a wide
    floatation collar to help keep the kids head above water.
    	Maybe you could call some of the Mfrs. such as Stearns and ask.
    
    					B.C.

    I've looked and never found anything really satisfactory.  As the 
    previous notes suggest, the smallest jackets seem to be in the 
    30lb range.
    
    When you do find one, try it out by floating the little one in a 
    pool or the tub before you get too confident about the jacket.
       
    
    Weight is only one component of how they seem to work.
    - just because they fit at the waist/trunk, doesnt mean they will
      turn the child correctly.  The major problem in small sizes
      seems to be too much floatation.-
     
    
    I havent been happy with any of the four or five I've bought so far.   
    
    
    					Harlan

    
    Great news, Rick!  Congrads!
    
    Jeanne
    

    Rick, here are a couple possibilities:
    
    Overton's: "America's Cup" toddler vest.  15 - 30 LBS.  $24
    Shoreway Marine: "Minnow" infant vest. Less than 30 LBS. $31
    Boat/U.S.: "Stearns" infant vest.  Less than 30 LBS. $20
    
    All are Type II and have a grab strap and leg straps.
    
    Of course your assuming that this kid will ride in a boat with you
    driving.
    Wayne

    
    My son was on a boat at about 6 weeks!
    
    All I could find was <30 lb PFDs when I took my infant son out for the
    first time.  It didn't really fit that well but on the other hand a kid
    that age isn't going to walk around and fall off the boat (we put the
    PFD on him and then put him into one of those rockaroo infant carries). 
    So the only worry was a complete disaster like the boat sinking at
    which point we figured an adult could make sure he was floating face
    up.  So if you're really cautious you might want to insist one other
    adult wear a PFD until the kid reaches a size where the PFD will work
    consistently (stay on, basically).   It doesn't take long for a baby to
    get to 15+ lb at which point the <30 PFDs fit fine.
    

    Does anyone know where I can borrow one or two infant (0-30 lb) pfds
    or one child (30-50lb) pfds for sailing on Winnipesaukee, Saturday?
    I do not need the youth size 50-90 lbs. Just the smaller ones.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bill
    DTN 381-1859
    Home 603 736-9670