Conference vicki::boats

	I can't speak to your specifics, but I weigh 220 lbs and my
MonArk 16'1" with a 75 hp Mariner and a 19" pitch prop with 310+ lb people
and an 18 gal tank picks me up out of the water pretty good.

			Al

    
    	First the obligatory plug:  

        You could have my '87 140 horse SeaRay for less than THAT !
    
    Now to what you asked:

    	Yes, it will pull a ~210 lb skier up with a few people in the
    boat.  On TWO skis and it might take a while, I hope his mass is
    back, shoulder and leg muscle and not <Ahem, blubber>.  I think
    the odd rating of 88 HP is because they started to count "at the
    prop" horse power a couple of years ago, vs "at the crankshaft" previosly.
    I'd guess this is what would have been a 95 horse motor a couple
    or three years ago.

    	Now for reading between the lines:
    
    If this is your first boat and/or you don't know the local waters
    REAL WELL, I'd recommend that you invest in a fish finder;
    Translation;  prop destroying rock and bottom finder.  I don't fish,
    but the ~$180 that I spent for a cheap LCD bottom finder has been
    well spent.  Props cost ~$45 to rebuild and the spare is ~$120,
    this is just for "cheap" aluminum ones, so a couple of hundred for
    a rock finder is a good investment.
    
	Good luck,  Reg
    

    The 88 hp that you are looking at is the price version of the OMC
    90 hp , without PT&T and with over the hub vs thru the hub exhaust
    . I have the 90 OmC on my bassboat . The problem with a moter this
    large without power trim could be that you would have to be constantly
    adjusting depending on weight and task at hand . The boat dealer
    should offer to prop the boat out for you as part of the package.
    OMC offers their spl motors in a wide variety of sizes and hp 28
    ,48 ,88 etc. just make sure that you don't want the PT&T etc..
    

    
    
    re: .1
    
    	Al, Is that on one *one* ski?
    
    re: .2
    
    	One the subject of fish finders being used for prop savers...
    
    Is it an idea that will work? By the time you see the rocks isn't
    it already too late?
    
    	As for the Sunbird... The main problem I see is that next
    year you'll be back at the dealer. Buying bigger fever has been
    discussed in this file quite a bit, and is a real phenomenon.
    However, if you and your husband are just interested in starting
    somewhere in boating a 16 footer is a good choice for ease of handling,
    and just plain getting used to boating.
    
    	as for the HP... I'd rather be behind the Sunbird with an 88
    than and I/O with a 120, but of course I'm spoiled I'll stick
    to my 250 hp inboard! :-)
    
    Rick

    I would like to add that "some ocean" travel isn't well advised
    in a <17-foot boat, unless you mean in a secluded bay only. Don't
    go too far offshore in that size boat alone! I wouldn't, unless
    it was a "life" boat, and the bigger boat it came off of had already
    sunk!
    
    Mike
    

    
    	Ahhh, I forgot to add that a fish finder WILL NOT find rocks
    in time if you are approaching them at any kind of speed, however
    they can tell you that the bottom is coming up kinda fast so its
    a good idea to get off of plane and (if you have an I/O) raise the
    prop.  I use mine mostly when I go to areas that I'm not familiar
    with, I just troll around at a leasurely pace making mental notes
    of the shallow (say < 6 ft., though it depends on the season and
    therefore water level) spots.  I try to relate these to landmarks,
    i.e. sand bars will often be found where brooks or streams empty
    into lakes, so I'll note the stream and try to remember how far
    out to be from shore to get at least 6 ft of water.  This  "bottom
    mapping"  can be kinda fun in its own way and I like to look around
    slowly for other hazzards too the first time I'm in a new area.
    I wish we'd had time to troll around a bit when we did the skiing
    behind Don's plane for example, just to know where the islands and
    shallows were and have some idea of that lake's length and width
    in various parts.  Oh, it WAS FUN chasing a plane along at ~50 MPH
    on unknown waters in a boat I'd never seen before, but a slow cruise
    around ahead of time wouldn't have done any harm:-^)
    
    	Re 250 HP, Yeah, I'd like to be a  P_olitically C_orrect M_ariner
    some time soon too.

    	Reg	{still not winterized and wishing I could have skied
    			this week_end}
    

    re.4 
           I have a question, what does "I would rather be behind a
    Sunbird with an 88hp than a 120 I/O?
    
                                                         GTP

    Just my two cents worth
    
    The 88 hp is OMC's price version. If you are getting a motor over
    75 hp I would recomend getting Power Trim and Tilt. Yea it's a few
    dollars more; But since you intend to both ski and use the boat
    in Salt here are the reasons for it.
    
    1) For sking you will want to Pwr trim the motor in all the way
    to get the boat on plane quickly and then pwr trim up to adjust
    the boat level once on plane.
    
    2) When in the WAVE's in Salt you need to be able to trim the hull
    angle to compensate for running with the waves or against them,
    This will allow you to advert potentally pitch poling ( Flipping
    the boat) from driving the bow under a wave, And also will help
    to keep you from being pooped(Having a wave roll over the stern)
    
    3) Also Pwr trim is nice when approching those rocks you just saw
    on the Depth Finder.( A required piece of gear) BTW- Most insurance
    co. give discounts for gear like depthsounders and VHF radio's
    which you should have if in the BIG POND.
    
    
    HAND LAID- AND CHOPPER GUN. Don't go in the same sentance.
    
    The sales person you talked to dosn't know is ark from his ell bow
    
    A hand laid boat is woven fabric ( Look's Like Cloth) It is much
    better in quality and naturely costs more.
    
    Chopper Gun is sprayed in random fiber, It has very little strength
    and is cheap, Resale value will be low. Sometimes the fibers fall
    appart completely in only a short time. The Sunbird is not suitable
    to bring in the ocean safetly,
    
    Oh. Re: Monark 16'1" " Fiero" model. This boats hull design was
    the 1986 class speed record with 115 hp power rating. It is very
    narrow and very fast! Thats the reason it will pull a skier well
    with only 75 hp. I ran one with a 90 PTPT Mariner as a Demo boat
    for 3 months. I would not consider it to go in the ocean due to
    its narrow beam and very low freeboard.
    
    
    My advice is look around ,more. Find somthing Quality.
    
                                         Walt
    

    
RE:    < Note 174.7 by SALEM::PAPPALARDO >


>    re.4 
>           I have a question, what does "I would rather be behind a
>    Sunbird with an 88hp than a 120 I/O?


    	This means that I think coming up out of the water on a slalom
    ski would be an easier task behind a 17 foot 90 hp OUTBOARD than
    behind a 17 foot 120 I/O.... The outboard tends to put more power
    where it's needed..
    
    Rick

    
    I purchased a Sunbird Corsair, 175 hp I/O this past year. I used
    it plenty this summer in mostly calm conditions. I looked around
    plenty before buying the Sunbird and in my opion it was the best
    boat for the money. I'v learned alot since than though. The quality
    of the boat is good. The interior is well fit and the guages are
    easy to read. The seating is could be set up better for the driver.
    I have average length arms but I cant reach the wheel if I sit back.
    The quality of the caulking around the bumper strip was poor and
    sections of the gelcoat were lousy. I have since had them fixed
    by the marine. As I said I have 175hp in a 17 foot bowrider for
    the simple fact that on coastal runs it can get push itself around
    when you need it. I wouldnt feel safe with a small outboard but
    I disagree with a previous note that the Sunbird cant take to the
    ocean. The hull is solid and the beam is wide at 87". I dont recommmend
    going out for a cruise to the Bahamas but it runs and handles well.
    
    Wilderness Marine: Okay, hard to get ahold of when you want to discuss
    a problem. Dont deal with the salespeople after the sale. Talk to
    Jim the owner. After my initial fallout with them I have had no
    real problems. I had a mishap this summer that distroyed my lower
    unit. Jim got the boat right in, talked with the insurance people,
    came to an agreement and had it back to me in a week. You do however
    have to stay on there case when you want to get something scheduled.
    Seems all marines are busy especially after a show. Wilderness is
    building a hugh service center right there on the property and Jim
    feels this will be his claim to fame.
    
    Do yourself a favor though look around and if you do buy from anyone
    look the boat over carefully before you take it. DO NOT pay in full
    until your ready to take the boat home. Take your time and inspect
    the hull for nicks or scratches. Especially look on the under side.
    I found a chunck of gelcoat had been removed during shipping. It
    is just now getting fixed. Check over the entire interior and check
    the that the quages work. If you can have them start it for you.
    A disadvantage to buying a boat out of the water, you dont get to
    drive it. Its your money and it costs plenty dont take delivery
    until your satisfied. Believe me I learned from the first experience.
    
    Good luck...

	I bought a 20' Sunbird EurosportII from wilderness.  I agree with Mike's
comments about payment and dealing with Jim directly.  I have had my rig out
in some fierce waves (for fresh water) and have no complaints with the boat.

	I did have a chance to "look around" a number of times and was not
impressed with their entry level 17'.  I would reccommend upgrading to their
18' Eurosport I.  It will cost a few more $$, but the interior, ponies, drivers
layout, space, hull design & weight, is more in line with the things you want to
do.  Rule of thumb is buy a bigger boat that you think is good for you and by
the end of the 1st season it will be full.  By the begining of the 2rd season
you will be looking to trade up.

	If your main concern is price, there are several boats that are cheaper,
but again you get what you pay for.  Sounds like you really want a 18' bow-rider
with a 100+ hp (outboard) or a 170+hp I/O.  Go for the widest possible beam
with a roller trailer.  Sit inside with 1 or 2 of your family and picture
ski's, tubes, coolers, towels, extra clothes, paddle, fire ext. life vests,
misc. other stuff that you NEED, then you will really understand why a 17'
boat is just a little to small for more than 2 people.

	Good luck and let us NETers know what you decide.


		Garry

    Paying a "few bucks more" for a bigger/better engine is not always
    possible as has been implied on a deal like this one because it is a
    package deal from the manufacturer.  There is no choice in power units
    (other than Johnson or Evinrude).  The whole point is to offer an
    attractive price.  However, the SPL series can be fitted with some of
    the features of the regular line, like power tilt/trim, at additional
    cost.  It probably wouldn't make sense to buy an SPL and then ad every
    option if you were buying seperates, but in the case where you are
    getting everything at a low price paying a couple of hundred more to
    have the engine optioned out isn't such a bad thing to do.
    
    john 

    I don't know about the boat dealers you mentioned but I'd treat
    them just like car dealers. There aren't any good ones that I've
    heard about. You just gotta take your chances!
    
    I'vd had a 15' 75hp outboard for years. We use it for skiing and
    short rides around the lake. It has a top speed of about 40mph.
    It has what we laymen refer to as a "power prop" as opposed to a
    "speed prop". I weigh about 180 and get up on one ski with much
    struggling. I've popped right out of the water with a 250hp
    inboard (there nice but expensive) so I know I'm strugging on
    my boat. You need about 35 mph for barefoot at 180 lbs. I've gone
    barefoot several times but with my 2 lightest daughters one driving
    and one watching (otherwise it's not powerful enough).
    
    Your deal sounds like an okay price for occasional boating recreation.
    If you intend to boat a lot you'll quickly outgrow this boat.
    
    By the way, I was fool enough to take my boat out fishing 5 miles
    into the ocean out of beverly and was happy to get back in one piece.
    Get a much bigger boat if you want to go on the ocean! Really.
    
    I don't those fancy fishfinder and power trim and have managed to
    get along with a little common sense and caution. They have their
    uses but not for the occasional pleasure boater who exercises
    care.
    
    Another thought I had when buying a boat is if anybody has used
    MASS BUYING to purchase a boat. Can they save us any money?

    I too have looked at the SPL 17', quoted at $8,400 from Ward's Marina
    in Ossipee, N.H.  The reason I MIGHT buy from him is that is the
    area where I boat, Lake Ossipee.  This is the 16'6", with the 88HP,
    sun-top, bowrider, walk-thru windshield, galvanized trailer, ski
    storage, platform and ladder, and other items which are non-essential
    to me.  Three other options I want are a mooring cover, an auto-bilge
    pump and the power-trim.  The trim is due to the shallowness of
    Lake Ossipee near the shore, particularly where I often boat to.
    The mooring cover would be to help protect the interior from the
    sun, and the auto-bilge is because we lose about one boat a year
    in our marina, and I don't get up there often enough to take care
    of it for sure.  While I want the mooring cover, I've seen too many
    of them that are stretched out and still allow water into the boat.
    
    I installed my own auto-pump in my present boat, but am not sure
    if I want to do that in a new boat, especially when a new switch
    would also be needed.
    
    One "feature" of the Sunbird that got my attention is that they
    have gone to a molded seat construction method, thus eliminating
    the standard plywood framing.
    
    I have no plans to boat in other waters, so this is the size for
    me, along with the powerplant.  But, I expect that I won't be buying
    another new boat, so I'm hesitant to go after it because of the
    construction.  I'm debating on waiting a little longer and then
    going for something close to it, but with the sheeting construction
    as opposed to the chopper-gun method. 
    
    Which leads to my question:  Am I being too cautious about this,
    since I'll be staying on inland water for sure, and never on something
    as large as Winnie?  
    
    Lee

    REPLY .15
    
    From what I'v read and heard you dont get into a hand laid glass
    hull until you get into big dollars. Seems most average priced boats
    are all built using the chopper gun technique. If your unsure of
    the quality of the hull talk to the dealer about a video some of
    them have explaining the hull manufacturing techniques. There are
    so many opinions on this subject its mind boggling. In this notes area
    it is great to see so many of them. I have a Sunbird and I'm very
    pleased with the hull design, the way it handles it self in waves
    and swells and just the overall boat. I may change my mind down
    the road but I doubt it. I must have looked at every brand there
    is at some of the boat show. I did the comparison shopping by price,
    power, options, std equip etc. Damn near drove myself nuts. But
    the people in this notes area were very helpfull and there experience
    helped me alot. Hope you find what you want...
    
    Bill

	What?  Wait to April (and invite chuck!).  We still have 1-3 months of
agressive boating (assuming that Nor-easter does not hit tonight - NO JOKE).
Last year we were out on Winni @ my firend's place the 1st week of December
(he has an Island).  1983 or 4 we spent Christmas weekend on the island.
This is out in the middle where no car has gone before.  I would never be able
to wait to play with a NEW toy!!!  But discresion is probably better with
a new rig the first time out the chute!

	Seriously though, I do think you will enjoy your Sunbird.  Like Mike
I spent many hours looking at boats and came to the same Sunbird conclusion.
Wilderness, Gaugh, xyz marina will always be the "archillies heal" of owning
ANY boat (a very few dealers excluded).  The best one can do is buy a boat
you like and enjoy it when you can.  We all wish you good luck with the new
float toy.  Let us boaters know about the "trial" run next April.

	Garry

RE: Note 174.17        

>>   What?  Wait to April (and invite chuck!).  We still have 1-3 months of
>>   agressive boating (assuming that Nor-easter does not hit tonight - NO JOKE


Garry,
Thanks for the words of encouragement!  You're right about the season not
being over yet.  I don't know why so many people put their boats away right
after Labor Day weekend - September and October can be beautiful out on the
water.  I've still got my 14' Alumacraft /40hp Evinrude, and will be using
it right up 'til Thanksgiving or so, then will christen the new Sunbird in
early April.  The old boat was for sale for a while, but people seem to be
scared off by its age, despite the fact that it runs great.  Now the plan is
to keep it for use on smaller lakes and rivers.  My extended season was also
one of the factors in going with outboard power on the Sunbird.

The decision to wait until next April for the new boat was strictly financial.
I would love to have it now, but we just got back from the honeymoon 5 days
ago.  Fortunately [for her  ;^) ] my new wife likes boats and supported the
idea of getting a new boat.  We just need to pay for a few other things first.


Rick W.   who_already_can't_wait_for_spring

    There are several notes in this file that speak to the sizes boat
    you are looking at. I started on 17' bowriders and received some
    great info. 
    
    I too was looking at the Sunbird model you mention. But several
    things have made me look elsewhere. The Sunbird dealer I talked
    to was Gauch Bros in Worcester. Although there have been some
    complaints about this dealer in these notes, they seemed to be service
    related not sales. Anyway, after explaining my needs, Don Gauch
    advised against the 17' Sunbird with the 88hp. His reasoning was
    that this is an entry level boat and if I already determined that
    I enjoy the water (I have a 14' with a 40), then I would be unhappy
    very quickly with this model because of its size (under 17' ) and
    power. When I go to trade I would take a beating.
    
    He suggested a 17' Stingray with a 130 I/O which he also happened
    to have. It was 2K more, but a much bigger boat, holds 8 people
    instead of  5 or 6 and would probably meet my needs much longer.
    
    His remaining point was that if I were going to finance some portion
    over 5 to 8 years that monthly payment would be less that $50 a
    month difference, although the whole rig would cost 2K more. AND
    which is very big AND at trade in time (or even a private sale)
    the Stingray name and the size of the boat would bring more than
    the entry level Sunbird.
    
    I have pretty much settled on the 17' Stingray as my choice (when
    I can afford it). It will not be bought from Gauch Bros because
    there is a dealer in Attleboro who is quoting me a price $700 less.
    In addition, based on everything else I have read in these notes
    files I will upgrade the 130hp I/O to either a 165/4 or perhaps
    a 175/6.
    
    My point is although the price is attractive, spend some time, look
    around, understand how you will use the boat now and in the future,
    talk to boaters and if this Sunbird is still what you want, the
    price will not have changed more than a couple of hundred bucks
    by the winter boat shows.
    
    Also in Garry's Sunbird note #45 I think, ther is a note from someone
    who visited the Sunbird Plant and their is further discussion about
    the difference between Sunbird's entry level line and there "regular"
    line of boats.
    
    Good Luck and have some fun looking around.

	Several very good points I think have been made and are worth reviewing:

1) Shop around.  Visit as many dealers as you can possibably afford (time/$$)
   Just when you think you have found the *best* deal, you will find new info
   right after you sign the papers!  (oh well)

2) Be very carefull for the BAIT & SWITCH ploys.  Buy a boat that looks and
   feels right for you.  A namebrand can be turned into dirt in 1 season of
   less-than-good-quality production run or P.R.  If the boat meets your needs
   and does not have any glaring negatives (bad hull rep., poor serviceibility,
   etc) buy it.  When I bought my BAJA in 1979 people said I was crazy as it was
   not a namebrand.  I sold it for what I payed for it after 8 years because it
   WAS a well-build (actually over-build) boat.  Look for quality and buy
   quality.  The name will mean very little (in the long run) if you keep your
   boat several years.  However, if you can afford to trade up in <2 years, you
   might want the name, because the boat (ignoring the fancy name) will not be
   worth the price you will need to ask.  Remember if you pay 2-4K more NEW,
   you will have to ask 1-3K more USED when you resell.  It is easier to sell
   used for 5K than for 7-8K when a new boat (same class) is 9K.

3) Dealers (good and bad) are in business to sell their inventory.  Selling you
   a boat not on the lot at this time of the year does very little to solving
   their IMMEDIATE problem.  This is espically true if you tell them you are
   price sensitive.  If they order a boat for you, some dealers want their
   normal cut, and will not pass along the savings of not carring the rig on
   "floor plan".  Clearly you will not pay this "season" price if it is the
   "off-season" (fall).  If this is the case, the first thing dealers do is
   tell you that you CAN afford MORE boat!  You feel better.  He is on your
   side, right?  Then they sell you the MORE boat that IS on the lot.

   When you get home, you have payed 2-5K more than you REALLY wanted to spend
   but you figure out how to make it work anyway, right?

   You are in the driver's seat this year.  There are many 1-3 year old USED
   rigs on the market.  Dealers are in the middle of another good year and can
   afford to take a price hit on the last 1 or 2 on the lot.  Next year does not
   look so good (for the dealers), so don't be PUSHED into something bigger if
   that is NOT what you want.  It is very tough to seperate your WANT from your
   REQUIREMENTS at this stage of the game.


	Hope some of this ramblings help.  Good luck.


			Garry

Rick,

	Yes you are right.  While looking at boats last spring I saw the
Bait and Switch tactics in practice (while I was shopping) at:

	MARINE USA	(larson)
	Gauch bro's	(sunbird & stingray)
	Wilderness	(sunbird)
	Havencraft	(maxima)
	Baret		(starcraft)
	Thurstons	(cobolt)
	Parkers		(don't remember their brand-of-the-year)
	Owens		(Baja)

	Owens ranked right near the bottom of the slime bucket in respect to
their "We are Baja and maybe we don't want to sell to you" attitude.  You had
better be prepared for these "games" before shopping.  I wish we could have
a limited scope recession that only affected marina's, basically an attitude
adjustment session!  Most all marina's do it, some more than others.

	If you KNOW WHAT YOU WANT, and let them know in specific terms what
must be in the "deal", just keep applying those qualifications to every wacko
deal the salesman presents.  If they don't get the message, just leave and state
the reason (ala watch my lips bucko).  I was personally called back by several
owners after the fact.  As I was leaving I would tell them that if they REALLY
wanted to do business, I AM Buying and left my phone #.  If they really have
what you want and you have stated that in no uncertian terms, most times the
sales staff will not let you get away!  If they do it was not worth doing
business with them.

	Remember, its your money.  Marina's like, no LOVE, people who are not
really sure *and* can be talked up into almost anything because they are READY
to buy.  Do your homework first, "windowshop" and ask questions to become sure,
and only buy when you know what you want.  IN the marina business, assume the
marina is *NOT* reputable until they prove themselves.  I know its not the way
it is suppose to work but hey nobody told them.  I am waiting for a marina to
pickup on the Joe Izuzu approach and use it.  They are already staffed and
trained right?
			TRUST ME