Conference vicki::boats

    I'm not sure if this topic has been addressed in this conference
    yet but can anyone educate me on what to look for in a Loran.
    
    There are lots of models with a wide range of prices on the 
    market today, but what is the difference between them?  
    
    What are the basics every Loran comes with, and what are some
    of the 'extras' that a more expensive Loran would offer.
    
    Thanks for your help.
    
    Dave

    look thru the directory, there is enough info to write a novel.
    also most of this info comes from hand info.
    
    jim.

    Yes, this topic is covered well in both this file and the SAILing
    notes. The features of a good Loran can be easily understood by
    reading a few spec sheets of various manufactures.
    
    As far as the latest and greatest....since GPS (Global Posioning
    System) is still being perfected...and is still quite $$$ to the
    boating consumer, Lorans that receive multiple chains simultaneously
    are available. I believe Raytheon has one for around $1600-$1800.
    
    /MArk

    Thanks for the directions!

   If anyone out there has recently purchased an Eagle Z-9500, a guy
in my group just found out they've been recalled.  I don't know whether
the problem was with the loran part or the depthfinder part, but if
you've got one, you might want to call Eagle and get straight SCOOP from
them about what you have to do....

Al

This question was recently discussed extensively in Note 1124 in the 
SAILING notes file (MSCSSE::SAILING). 

    	The models being offered are changing at a rapid rate. I paid about
    $800 for my Apelco 6100 several years ago. Today you can get a
    fishfinder with loran, surface water temperature and speedometer for
    $700. Lowrance/Eagle has a LORAN for under $300.
    	I doubt if you would benefit from my experience since its with 
    what I consider near obsolete equipment. I would recommend the newer
    generation of equipment vs what I have now. They are smaller, less
    expensive and I assume as reliable as their predecessors. 
    	About all I can recommend is to read a lot. The information is out 
    there in boating mags etc. The boat shows are also a good source of data.
    	If the discussion get into generic stuff like how important is user
    friendlyness vs receiver performance or accuracy I'll jump back in. In
    the meantime just read everything you can get your hands on.
    Regards,
    Paul

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   PowerBoats    
Created: 12-MAY-1988 10:19         641 topics         Updated: 26-MAR-1990 15:15
             -< For Sale/Wanted ads in note #3 - Sign in note #2 >-
 Topic  Author               Date         Repl  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    58   MRMAC::KUBOTA       27-JUN-1988    18  Loran installation ?
    82   COPEK::CUMMINGS     19-JUL-1988    10  depth finder experience?
   104   PILOU::FLORANCE     10-AUG-1988     2  IMPULSE Loran and Sounder
   154   COBRA::DUFFY        15-SEP-1988    12  Looking for Recommendations
   183     NAC::SWEET        14-OCT-1988     2  Help on SRD electronics
   210    BUSY::GILL         21-NOV-1988    18  LORAN vers RADAR
   227  SWSCHZ::LAFAVE       27-DEC-1988     3  How deep is the water?
   244  USCTR1::FMACGILLIVRA 23-JAN-1989     6  Raytheon 570 Loran units
   251   SSVAX::REDFIELD     31-JAN-1989     6  LORAN at Home 
   270   BOMBE::CUMMINGS     18-FEB-1989     5   help with apelco 6600
   277  DNEAST::OKERHOLM_PAU 28-FEB-1989    14  RADAR Installation
   327  ONFIRE::MOHR          3-APR-1989     4  Which Loran to buy?
   541  SSGVAX::REDFIELD     17-OCT-1989    14  Loran Signal & Engine Starting

    
    
    	Lot's of good info out there in the identified notes.  I just
    purchased a RAYNAV 520.  It has 99% of the functional features that
    seem to attract users (list too long to mention, see sales lit.).
    Anyway, the real attractive feature was the $300.00 price tag. 
    Check it out.
    
    Steve
    

    If you do a DIR/KEYWORD=ELECTRONICS at the NOTES> 
    you will get a number of notes on Loran and where to purchase
    a unit in the price range that you are looking for.

    You have to be kidding. 20 miles out from Newburyport in a 20 foot
    boat.
    
    Your asking for trouble. It can, and not has been done, but that
    size boat Should not venture so far off shore.
    
    Paul

        ......how far CAN you venture out in a 20' boat?

    Figure at 20 mph....let see that's 1 hr. Monitor 16 & weather ch.....
      ..fish for a couple hrs. and take your time going home w/ your catch.

    I've seen small ?X feet aluminum boats follow the party boats
    outta Newburyport all the way to Jefferys Ledge. I must admit feeling
    more secure in the party boat.
    
    /MArk

	I fish offshore in my 22' Aquasport quite a bit. The only difference 
between 5 miles and 20 is the time it takes to get to shore and maybe the 
number of boats around you. The sea conditions aren't that different. 
	There's a lot of subjectiveness that goes into decisions as to how 
big a boat has to be to go offshore. I've never seen any recommended size vs 
offsore capability in anything I've read. No doubt bigger is better but fast 
is better than slow also. People have sailed around the world in some fairly 
small boats.
	I frequently fish 15 to 20 miles offshore and don't feel in any danger
doing it. As a matter of fact once when everything was just right, I went 35
miles out. It was exciting...a kind of living on edge feeling...like mountain 
climbing. I had the best day fishing that I can remember and returned safe and
sound through building afternoon seas.
	My rationale is as follows
		I continually listen to the weather channel
		I have an auxilliary motor (plus other redundancies)
		I prefer to go with another boat (capable of rendering 
			assistance or towing)
		my equipment is relatively new and well maintained
		I'm well insured
		the boat floats upright when swamped   
		I don't want to live forever       
		drowning aint such a bad way to go 
Sea ya in Davey Jones' locker  ;^)
Paul	

    The definition of Offshore:
    
    FARTHER THAN YOU CAN SWIM...................
    
    I've gone 14 miles out in a 16ft. center console, pick your days.
    
    Paul's right, fast is better, you just don't wait till the seas
    really build....ya get the hell outa there...
    
    Jim.

re the last two or three:

Place ye not your faith in the false god NOAA, for ye shall be deceived 
and smitten by great tempests on the waters of the earth. 


The worst weather I have experienced at sea has not been forecast by 
NOAA -- worst means a full gale in the Gulf of Maine, a 50+ knot squall 
off Provincetown, and sundry other odd exciting moments. The squalls of 
a thunderstorm can develop very quickly and can be very dangerous. True, 
such bad weather doesn't happen often, but often enough that I 
personally wouldn't venture more than a very few miles offshore in a 
small powerboat. If you feel comfortable doing it, then do it. The more 
time I spend at sea, the more dangerous I believe the sea is. It has 
been described as the most immediately hostile environment on earth.

Let's be careful out there,

Alan (who has sailed to Bermuda and back on a 32' boat)

    Twas this fine day at Cuttyhunk, and the wind gods were in the
    best of moods, how about 10 knots Southwest,  temp low 80's
    clear and sunny. The NOAA (know it alls) forecast winds 
    SW 15-20. Fine, sounds like a nice weekend. WRONG......
    Saturday afternoon getting a little breezy, how about 52 knots,
    as measured at Mattapoisett boatyard. This finally subsided
    on tuesday morning. The annoying facts, 48-52 ft. Berts
    and Hats turning back on Sunday, seas running 10-15'.
    The real shame, was that on Sunday afternoon, this younger
    couple left in a 26ft. Sailboat, they had to be to work on 
    Monday. They were found floating tuesday morning by a 
    commercial fisherman about 5 miles West of Gayhead,
    he had passed on, she was barely alive, she did not make it
    thru the afternoon. The boat was found at just off Westport
    during the week, afloat upright, not damaged.
    
    We did not enjoy this at all, we were tied up to a pole,
    for 3 days, and took a beating. I went ashore during this
    period and got stuck for 3 hrs.
    
    Its important to understand whats going on around you,
    the hell with NOAA. On that Saturday, and all day long
    they still kept talking about winds of 15-20.
    
    Real Nice..
    
    JIm.
    
    

 


Hi---
Has anyone had any experience with the RAYJeff PL99 handheld LORAN?
If so please comment.
If no one owns one does anyone have a friend that has one??
thanks
norm

    
     Norm,
    
      If you can get a copy of last weeks Fisherman magazine, there
     was a write up on that unit. The author seemed pretty impressed 
     with it. If you can't get a copy let me know and I'll mail you
     a photo copy.
    
     Mike
    
    

One of the recent Powerboat Reports reviewed that Loran.  The review essentially
said "nice for a secondary unit...not adequate for a primary unit".

From some of the text of the article, it sounded to me like the unit would be
*extremely* frustrating to use...especially if you're used to a permanently
mounted unit (I used to have a RayNav 570....very nice).  

They reviewed two lorans in that article...one was the RayJeff, the other I
forget.  One got a better review than the other, but neither of them compared
to a good state-of-the-art permanent unit. I suggest you get ahold of the 
article and form your own opinion...

Jeff

    I have a PL-99.

    Works well as a hand held unit.  When used as a hand held unit, you
    must hold it in your hand - you are the ground.

    When used as an installed unit, you need the antenna preamp that comes
    with their accessory kit that include a mounting bracket and power
    cable.

    It is sensitive to noise in the electrical system, and RF.

    I know an pilot that uses one in his plane, and he recommended it highly.
                                                       
    The antenna system and proper grounding is key to how well it works.

    Don

Thanks for the inputs--I have passed them on to the guy that
asked the question.
Thanks again
norm

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 1056.0          Hand Held 'Portable' LORAN experiences           No replies
LAVGOD::SIMONIAN                                      7 lines  19-MAY-1993 20:49
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am looking for a good hand held 'portable' LORAN.

Two I've seen advertised include a Micro Logic at $299, and a Voyager for 
$239.

Any experience out there, good or bad with hand held LORAN?

    I had posed the same question in the sailing conference and got back
    essentially negative feedback for handhelds as a primary unit . However, 
    as a secondary or backup unit they could serve as a safety measure.
    
    The same drawbacks as HH VHFs for use as primary units were mentioned, 
    eg. inconsistant range, less sensitivty, etc.  

I've also heard that the hand helds work fine, as long as they are grounded
properly when in use.

    I'm thinking about a hand held for fishing.  Would it give me the
    ability to find a specific fishing hole within a couple of feet?
    
    Also any updated brand info and costs.
    
    Thanks Rick
    

re .15:

Within a couple of feet? No, almost certainly not. Within a couple of
hundred feet, just maybe. Repeatability is somewhat variable. The
propagation delays of the loran signal are affected by many things,
including how wet the ground is over which the signals travel. Then
there are of course the inaccuracies of the loran receiver itself. Radio
waves travel around 1000 feet per microsecond, so if the loran displays
time differences to the nearest 0.1 microsecond, your position is still
uncertain within maybe +/- 100 feet. Very crude estimate. 

I've generally not heard good reports about handheld lorans.

    What about hand held GPS?
    I understand they are more accurate.
    
    Rick
    

re .17:

There is a difference between repeatability and accuracy. A loran is 
(usually) accurate to perhaps a quarter mile. That is, the location it 
gives is within a quarter mile of where you really are (again, usually, 
and local anomolies can cause much larger errors, especially near land). 
However, a loran gives very repeatable location information. The 
location it gives may be somewhat wrong, but it gives the same location 
every time to within, say, a couple of hundred feet or less. Once you've 
measured the loran time differences of a bouy, or whatever, with your 
loran it will get you back to that location very repeatably. Our 1982 
vintage loran has gotten us back to within 50' of bouys many times. 

A GPS is generally more accurate (plus/minus about 100 feet). I would 
assume that its repeatability is very good. 

The cheapest loran is about $200, the least expensive GPS a little under 
$500, but prices are falling. 

Were I to buy one or the other, I'd probably get a GPS. I certainly will 
continue to use my loran when I do finally get a GPS.

Alan

RE: -1

	Thanks for the good pro-con on Loran/GPS.
	But why would you continue to use your current Loran after 
	you get a GPS?

	Just curious ;^)
	-< Tuna Tail >- aka Dick

re .19:

>>>	But why would you continue to use your current Loran after 
>>>	you get a GPS?

Electronics fail. I am rather more likely to get to wherever I'm going 
if I have two more or less completely independent electronic navigation
systems than if I have just one. I've done enough dead reckoning
navigation in dense fog and other bad weather to prefer not doing it if
I don't absolutely have to. 

    An article in the New Hampshire Sunday News 1/9 about GPS. I thought
    the article was going all right until they mentioned - a couple of
    times - that it has *millimeter* accuracy.
    
    Years from now our military people will admit to that (trust me), but
    for now I thought ten meters was the best we poor taxpayers could
    expect??
    
    Art

    It was the salesperson who kept saying millimeters.  Of course this
    company from Cal. seems to be targetting commercial usage (ie:
    surveying, map making, etc.) so maybe they are selling a more accurate
    GPS system with some of the technology that the military uses?
    Wayne

    Not to dispute Alan's comments, but in my last 7 years of using my
    loran I have repeatabilty and location accuracy within 50-100ft
    consistently. Never on the order of a quarter to 1/8 mile. I know
    this based on wreck and pieces of bottom structure that don't move
    as opposed to bouys that do. Since a boat is almost never
    motionless because of wind and tide this plently good for pratical
    use. I would argue you don't need to be more accurate than say 100
    feet.
    
    Bruce

re .last:

While loran repeatability is quite good, loran location accuracy can be
quite variable, enough so that you do have to be very cautious in using
it to navigate in areas where you have not been before. Loran receivers
measure the differences between the arrival times of the loran radio
signals broadcast by the loran chain transmitters. The receiver then
uses some algorithm to convert these measured differences to latitude
and longitude. And here is the problem. The algorithms assume a perfect
world and then apply ASF (additional secondary factors or some such)
corrections to give the approximately correct latitude and longitude.
The earth model used by loran receivers with automatic ASF is crude
enough that it doesn't always do the corrections correctly. You really
do need to check the displayed latitude and longitude against reality.
Our old loran does not have automatic ASF correction, so I tend to be 
very aware of this and the potential errors. 

The inaccuracies in location are, unfortunately, worst near land and can
change significantly over just a few miles. Here are some examples from 
Maine giving the measured time differences and the corrections that must 
be applied for our loran to give the correct latitude and longitude.
It is maybe 15 to 20 miles from Manana whistle '14M' to Penobscot Bay
gong 'PB' and only maybe 5 miles from Penobscot Bay gong 'PB' to
Rockland town mooring #1. In a dense fog (not uncommon in Maine) these
differences could be quite significant if you were unaware of them or if 
your loran didn't know about them. 

 12525.1 (+1.9)	25815.7 (+3.5)		cove north side of McGlathery Is

 12934.0 (+0.7)	25852.7 (+3.4)		Manana whistle '14M'

 12661.9 (+1.6)	25880.2	(+3.8)		Penobscot Bay gong 'PB'

 12694.8 (+4.0)	25898.8 (+4.4)		Rockland town mooring #1

As always, you have to be careful out there.

Alan

    re .23 + .24
    
    	This agrees with all I have heard and seen from Loran use. Accuracy
    to the *charts* is variable as Alan says, but repeatability with YOUR
    Loran to a given spot is not bad.
    
    				Kenny

    re .21, .22  and millimeter accuracy.

    Millimeter accuracy is a phrase you will frequently hear when talking
    about survey-grade GPS receivers.  Realtime differential-corrected
    accuracy with these receivers is typically sub-meter.  To achieve
    sub-centimeter accuracy requires occupying a position for a period
    of time usually in the range of 10 minutes and collecting data for
    post-processing on a computer.  Prices for these types of receivers
    are around the $10,000 range.

    Jerry

    Re: Loran Repeatability
    
    A point to remember is that in order for repeatable accuracy to be of
    value one must first arrive at a point safely and then insure that the
    location is in the Loran's memory.  This can typically be useful in
    waters that are familiar and often curised.  It offers nothing for
    waters that are being visited for the first time.
    
    Friends of ours recently cruised up the inside of Vancouver Island and
    on up to southeast Alaska (an area also prone to fog and bad weather). 
    They found that the accuracy of Loran decreased as they went north and
    became very unreliable when there were mountains (of which there are
    many) between the signal source and their boat.  It was impossible to
    predict the correction by referring to charts or corrections for
    near-by locations. They stopped using it as a matter of safety.
    
    On the other hand another friend sailed from Hawaii to Seattle and he
    had Loran coverage all the way letting him know that he was somewhere
    in the North Pacific ;-).  Seriously, he made landfall exactly where he
    intended, on the northwest corner of the state of Washington.
    
    When we replace the navagation equipment in another year or so on
    Viking Rose we will include GPS first and a cheap Loran as a backup
    (belt and braces).
    
    Regards,
    
         Howard

RE: -1

	Appreciate your input to LORAN & GPS
	The more information I get from users the better off I will
	be in selectting the right one(s) for the FishTeaser.

	Keep-um-comin
	-< Tuna Tail >-

    re: 639.26
    Actually, the salesperson was quoting a price in the $500 - $600 range,
    not $10,000.  I wonder if the model they are selling has been specially
    designed for use in surveying.  Seeing that you could set it up in a
    stationary position for some period of time, maybe it can take multiple
    readings and then find an "average position" which is within
    millimeters.  A GPS being used on board a boat probably only takes one
    reading while the boat is rocking and moving.  Even if it takes
    multiple readings, the position is changing and nobody would stake a
    claim to millimeter (or even a few meters) of accuracy.  
    Wayne
    

    
    
    	I would wait until April for any purchases of loran, GPS or DGPS.
    All the major manufactures are announcing new units at the Miami boat
    show.  I know that Raytheon, Furuno, Micrologic, and Garmin are going
    to be announcing new DGPS units which will drive down the prices on
    GPS and Loran.  If you want just a GPS unit I know that the prices will
    be coming down and be around what you will pay for a Loran today. 
    Happy Hunting.  I am currently waiting for the new Raytheon DGPS Sensor
    that attaches to my Raytheon 850 Depth Finder.  I have been told by
    Raytheon that they are planning first shipments in mid March.
    
    George

RE:-1
	Good information.
	I can be patient till these new units come out.

	-< Tuna Tail >-

    Just a nit . . .
    
    LORAN in the NE area is 9660 (9.60 nanosecond signal) which resolves to
    a wavelenth of approx 32 feet.  This (under ideal conditions), is the
    resolution of a LORAN receiver in the North Atlantic. 
    
    However, we rarely, if ever, enjoy ideal conditions, so if you're
    satisfied with 50 to 100 feet accuracy, you won't be disappointed with
    LORAN.  Sun spot activity, bridges, buildings, other large vessles, and
    propogation all have their affect on the accuracy of LORAN.  I make it
    a habit to practice dead reckoning regardless of the LORAN readings. 
    It gives me a measure of confidence in my Nav. intrumentation when my
    calculations come close to those of my LORAN.
    
    GPS is not yet fully supported by the USCG or Geodedic Survey, and
    won't be until ALL  of the GPS satellites are in place.  GPS will
    resolve to a much greater accuracy than LORAN when it finally does
    replace it.  
    
    Meanwhile, LORAN is still a usefull tool for the average sailor or
    hiker, and is much more economical to set up than at current GPS costs. 
    GPS will eventually align with LORAN prices, once the design costs are
    recovered.  So my advice is choose your own system to suit your own
    needs.  If you don't need to know whether you're on the 5 or 10 yard
    line, and are only concerned that you are on the playing field, LORAN is
    cheaper, fully supported, and isn't going away for quite a few years.
    GPS will phase in as LORAN phases out, but both will be supported for
    the entire process.
    
    Regards . . .
    
    	-mike-

    Whan I was at West Marine on Sunday, they had a table full of Vector
    loran's that had been returned to the factory and reconditioned for
    sale. The price was in the low $100s - I think it was $129 each.
    
    Bill
    

    ref .-1.  Loran accuraccy is specified as 0.25mi CEP for 90% of the
    time.  (the CEP is from memory and maybe faulty)  Loran repeatability
    is usually <100 ft.  This large difference
    is the main reason for the coast Guard pushing GPS and DGPS.  they are
    looking for a true "blind" harbor approach navigation system.

    There is good note in the sailing notes file on GPS.  Includes a phone
    number to call the CG bulletin board.   Note 452.  
    
    KC
     

I've seen two articles in the past few weeks (BOAT/US, National
Fisherman) which said that the Coast Guard has changed their minds with
respect to the phase out of LORAN C.

The new information is that they've just about decided to phase out LORAN C 
***by 1996***, "and perhaps earlier" - whatever that means. The
decision is totally based on the savings from not maintaining LORAN C
facilities (I think it's around $15 million) and the proliferation of GPS
receivers on the market.

I haven't seen any new information about Selective Availability.

Art

    Thanks to all of the helpful replies in my last note, I have decided
    to go with Loran.  The next important question is; how much does a
    Loran cost (ball Park), and how difficult is it to use? Any advice
    would be greatly appreciated as I am still a novice boater.
    
    (Besides, the insurance co. said our rate will go down with a Loran)
    
    GC

    I don't have a current catalog here at work, but in 1991 I paid $249
    for my Apelco. I'd be surprised if you couldnt get a decent one for
    around $200 these days.
    
    Bill

    I have a micrologic it is very easy to program and use.  It comes with
    a very good owners manual and a quick look-up card to keep handy.  I
    think I paid around $250 for it three years ago should I agree about 
    $200 is right.
    
    Dennis

    I checked my West Marine and my Defender catalogs over the weekend.
    There were no LORAN's listed in the $200 rance. But Apelco makes one
    for under $300 that can be upgraded to GPS at a later date
    (presumably for less $ than a complete GPS.) It uses the same display
    module/logic, but a different receiver module.
    
    Bill