Conference vicki::boats

    Lou, I've been thinking about non-toxic antifreeze for mine. I went
    last year with a dry engine, but really prefer to know that theres
    no water pockets sitting in there un-protected. 
    
    RV dealers sell non-toxic antifreeze, and it's no more expensive
    than Ethelyne Glycol. But the kicker is, how compatible is the
    non-toxic anti-freeze with engines and such? They use the stuff
    for plumbing in RVs and in closed-down summer camps plumbing.
    
    Mike

re            <<< Note 530.1 by SALEM::TAYLOR_M "Passing Lane Addict" >>>

>								I went
>    last year with a dry engine, but really prefer to know that theres
>    no water pockets sitting in there un-protected. 

	Now that we've started to get light frosts (Wot fall weather ?) 
I've been opening the block drain and removing the vent plug from the 
thermostat housing every time I take the boat out of the water, i.e. 
while its still hot.  I figure that the thermostat is open, so there 
shouldn't be any air locks to keep water in there.  Taking out the vent 
plug and the trailer ride home should get all but a couple of drops 
out.  I've done this the last couple of years, until I just COULDN'T 
use the boat any more in fact, I suspect that I could get away with 
leaving the block dry all winter.

	I think I'll try saving the anti freeze next spring, I fill
through a tube on the block's drain cock anyway (bottom up, same as 
the final drive), it would be no more trouble to use a longer tube
that I can route out of the bilge drain in the spring to recover the
(now expensive) glycol.  I admit to not having bothered before, it was
hardly worth it for cost savings, but I'll take the trouble for a
cleaner environment. 

	R

The non-toxic antifreeze for drinking water systems should be (and is claimed
to be) compatible with all the materials in an engine cooling system. After
all, drinking water systems contain rubber, plastic, brass, and other metal
parts. I've used non-toxic antifreeze on the sea water side for my engine's
cooling system (as recommended by the builder, in fact) for 10 years with no
problems at all. 

    Geeze! Don't run the engine without cooling water! The pump impeller
    will disintigrate before your very eyes. Not to mention the hot spots
    that will be formed in the heads & manifolds due to lack of proper
    cooling. Not such a problem if the engine is FWC, but you will still be
    replacing sencondary coolent pump impellers.
    
    re: How do you recover the glycol once you pour it into the exuast
    manifolds? Start the engine (with raw water cooling of course) and the
    glycol blows out the exuast. It seems like one would have to drain the
    whole system from its lowest point.
    
    Reg. You really muck up your bilge with glygol? what a bitch to clean!
    
    I would think that denatured alcohol would work just fine
    and it costs less. Only thing is the fish might get drunk when it dumps
    into the water. Hummm? Maybe we can use Bacardi to winterize the
    drinking water system?
    
                                         Walt
    

re   <<< Note 530.4 by PACKER::GIBSON "Have SCUBA, Will Travel, Dtn 225-5193" >>>
                              -< How about this? >-

>    Geeze! Don't run the engine without cooling water! The pump impeller
>    will disintigrate before your very eyes. Not to mention the hot spots
>    that will be formed in the heads & manifolds due to lack of proper
>    cooling. Not such a problem if the engine is FWC, but you will still be
>    replacing sencondary coolent pump impellers.
 
	I wasn't planning to run anything dry, just said I leave it 
dry between launchings when there's a frost.

>    re: How do you recover the glycol once you pour it into the exuast
>    manifolds? Start the engine (with raw water cooling of course) and the
>    glycol blows out the exuast. It seems like one would have to drain the
>    whole system from its lowest point.

	Dunno, but I'm assuming that what goes up will come down.  
Like I said, I fill from the block drain cock with a tube and funnel, 
holding the funnel above the highest point of the engine.  When 
anti-freeze comes out the thermostat housing vent I put the vent plug 
back in and hang the tube/funnel assembly on the side of the engine 
with some coat hanger wire.

>    Reg. You really muck up your bilge with glygol? what a bitch to clean!

	Nope, I was saying that I will route the tube out of the boat 
via the bilge drain.  I will then put the end of it into a 2 gallon 
jug (which my "assistant" will hold patiently (-: ) and I'll open up 
the drain cock to recover it all.  I'll probably use the non toxic 
stuff this year anyway.

	Reg

	{What am I talking about ?  this damned boat is s'posed to get
		itself SOLD this fall so I can get a NUUUuuuu wun !}
    

    Last year my block (350 Chev) and manifolds took about 3 gals of
    50/50 mix of prestone/water. In the spring I recovered about 2.5
    gals which is still cooling my truck. The other .5 gal ended up
    on my neighbors stockade fence, out the exhaust, when I fired up
    the engine (with garden hose, of course). How is prestone as a wood
    preservative??  ;^)  ;^)    (it must be friday)
    
    Doug...I might go the non-toxic route this year also, but I'm also
    concerned about rust inhibitors/lubricants that non-toxic antifreeze
    probably doesn't have.  More comments please??

    Lou, thanks for continueing our lunchtime discussion from yesterday
    here in the notesfile. As Lou mentioned in .0, I was up talking to the
    local yard mechanic last weekend inquiring about facilities to
    winterize my boat. He seemed confused when I asked for a hose and water
    to connect up the flushing ears while I fog the engine. To my
    amazement, he said they drain the blocks, start the engines, fog, close
    engine for the winter. Under cross examination he did not waiver on the
    method being used by the majority of yard owners on Winnipesaukee. I
    did notice the paint around the thermostat housings had not been
    disturbed and new gaskets had not been installed (i.e. antifreeze not
    poured in through the thermostat) confirming the engines were probably
    stored dry last year. I would proably have to also believe they fogged
    the engine without supplying water to the raw water pickups (quicker
    than removing all those nasty drain plugs).
    Has anyone else run into this type of practice before. I can't believe
    you can do this too many times before destroying the implellers.
    
    Alan, thanks for the tip on the non-toxic antifreeze. I still share the
    concern of .10 on the lubricants and rust preventatives but I believe
    it to be the best alternative to date.
    
    
    Harlan

re                       <<< Note 530.7 by TALLIS::LOKEN >>>

>    Has anyone else run into this type of practice before. I can't believe
>    you can do this too many times before destroying the implellers.

	A line from an old comic song....

	"It all makes work, for the working man to do"

	R

    I was told by the previous owner of my boat that all I had to do
    to winterize the engine was to start the engine (with the boat on
    jack stands), attach a short length of hose to a fitting on the
    water intake line, wait for the engine to reach 180 degrees, stick
    the hose in a bucket of 2 gal of antifreeze. Let the engine suck
    this up and while doing this, fog the carb.
    
    I did, it worked great. After the antifreeze was sucked up, I shut
    off the engine, removed the plugs and squirted a mixture of wd-40
    and mistery oil into the cylinders and then cranked the engine over
    3 or 4 times. Then replaced the plugs. No problems.
    
    The metal beast started right up in the spring on the first try
    and I then repeated the process with 2 gal of fresh water to flush
    out.
    
    I also poured antifreeze into the bilge and sponged it out in the
    spring. No problem.
    
    Paul

    Hey Lou, I thought you used bourbon for antifreeze....
    
    8-}  John Peters, not Mr. W.

    Hey Guys:
    
    Why does everyone make so much work out of winterizing?  Re-circulate 
    your anti-freeze.  Which way you do it depends upon your particular
    engine, of course.  Many,many years ago, I had a twin engine Chris and
    spent light-years trying to opewn every damn drain plug on the two
    engines.  I think there were about six on each engine, and dawd awful
    to reach.  Also, they were usually plugged, anyway.  One year, I saw
    the Chris-Craft people do it, and was amazed at the simplicity.  For
    the big inboards, they add a length of hose to the intake water lines
    and down into a 55 gallon drum.  They fire up the engine, and as soon
    as anti-freeze spits out, move the 55 gallon drum under the exhaust.
    
    Nowadays, with my little sailboat engine, I put 2 gallons in a bucket,
    stick the intake hose into the bucket, and re-direct the exhaust hose
    into the same bucket. Whenever there is a warm day during the Winter, 
    I fire up the engine until she comes up to temperature, then shut it
    down, without losing any anti-freeze.  A side benefit is that I do not
    even have to fog the engine, asince it operates all year round!
    
    In each case, your circumstances are a little different, but all
    engines can use the same approach. This year, my engine was Winterized
    in ten minutes.  Periodically, I add a little pure antifreeze to
    maintain the 50/50 ratio.  If you haven't, try it, you'll like the
    results! 

    Non-toxic anti-freeze is on sale at Spag's this week. $2.49/gal,
    I think.
    
    ...tom

    Just went to Spag's to get some Non- Toxic Anti Freeze during lunch.
    Its $3.99 a Gal. No big deal, Bliss has it for less, but with the boat
    being pulled out tommorow and nippy weather like last night, I want to
    get it winterized.
    
    BTW If you go to Spags don't ask for Potable Antifreeze, I had to spend
    10 mins explaining what it was to the fellow in plumbing dept. My fault
    I guess? Who would ever think to look in plumbing for it? I found it
    over in Automotive next to the Preston Glygol.
    Now if I can find a garden sprayer for my Slimy Grimy, Hummmm? I looked
    in the cookies/cake dept. Thats where they said it was????
    
    P.S. Don't forget to winterize any livewells and washdown systems!
    
                                         Walt
    

    Spag's has two kinds of non-toxic antifreeze; the red stuff and
    the blue stuff. I think the blue stuff has very little heat tolerance,
    while the red stuff can be heated without losing its goodness. The
    red stuff costs more than the blue stuff.
    
    ...tom

    there a source for this stuff closer to Boston?
    

    MOST MARINA'S, ALMOST ANY MARINE SUPPLIER, RECREATIONAL VEHICLE
    DEALER, MOST HARDWARE STORES, SOME DEPARTMENT STORES.
    
    THIS STUFF IS COMMONLY SOLD AND USED WIDLEY. $3.99 IS ABOUT THE
    GOING PRICE PER GALLON.
    
    HOPE THIS HELPS,
    
    JIM.
    

    The stuff Spag's carries is made by Sudbury and has the "Rule" logo on
    it (yup, the bilge pump people).  As Tom said (.- a few) they have the
    blue stuff (protects to -50F) for $2.49/gal. and the red stuff
    (protects to -60F) for $3.99/gal.  Thing is that you don't dilute this
    stuff...you run it straight (no 50/50 mix).
    
    Kinda funny how the prices almost coincide...2 X $3.99 = $7.98, just
    about what you pay for one gallon of Prestone.  Hmm, makes you think
    about why the price of ethylene glycol went up so dramatically!
    
    ...Roger... whose_boat_is_full_of_the_hazardous_stuff_this_year

    How do you get all of the water out of a lower unit of an outboard
    other that letting it drain out or evaporate?
    
    								Rob.

    
    Rob,
    Rather than concentrate on "how to get all the water out", I 
    would be more concerned with "how did it get in?".  At worst
    you should have maybe slight traces of condensation.  If you've
    got signs of actual water in there then you've got a problem
    that needs some attention.
    
    Possible sources for leaks include the prop shaft, drive shaft
    and shift linkage o-rings, drain/filler plug gaskets and cracks 
    in the housing.
    
    Once you get the leak repaired, short of disassembling the unit
    I only know of one way to get water out.  Refill it with fresh
    oil, run it for a short time and change the oil again.  It may
    take a few changes to get rid of all traces of water.  
    
    I suppose you could also try a water dispersing agent like WD-40, 
    but you should only turn the unit over by hand for a while and
    then drain and refill with gear oil again before running it.
    
    Rick W.

    I don't have a leak, I just want to make sure that I don't have any
    water in the outboard before winter comes. I flushed the motor not
    long ago, and I want to make sute that's there's no water left anywhere
    that might freeze.
    
    							Rob.

    RE:20 Rob, just leave it hang on the back of your boat, don't
    prop it up or on a motor stand, gravity will take care of the rest.
    
    
    Jim.

    
    	Also don't forget to change the lower unit lube, as
    leaky seals and such can allow water into the L.U.
    
    Rick

    Re: to .21 & .22.  Thanks, I did both.
    
    					Rob

	Seems there has always been the ongoing debate between
some boaters of:

	"Winterize Wet or winterize Dry?"....

	I've always been of the school that goes wet, and keeps antifreeze
in the hibernating boat motor. One argument, I've heard for this school is
that any water that remains trapped in the engine may get diluted enough by
the antifreeze to avoid any engine damage.

	This very argument would have saved a fellow noter this year....

my condolences...

Rick

    I've never had any problems with the pickling method.  The recovered
    mix is back in the prestone bottles for reuse in other vehicles...
    
    As well as the protection from freezing, the impellor and hoses remain
    lubricated and gives the block corrosion protection.
    
    Care to share the details of the unlucky fellow noter? My condolences
    also.  :^(
    
    Doug

    Folks,
    
     I think Rick is talking about me. My Malibu Sunsetter with 454 lost a
    freeze plub this winter from residual water in the block. I drained the
    block with the petcocks, drove it up and down hill to slosh the
    remaining water out as Indmar recommends, but appear to have some
    damage.
    
     The jury is still out on what the injury is, may be as bad as a
    cracked block. I'm in the middle of diagnosis now with the limited time
    Digital allows me at home.
    
     I think I'd recommend the antifreeze route from now on. Maybe the RV
    type or that new Sierra brand that are less toxic. 
    
    Chuck

    According to what I've read if you use regular anti-freeze you may be
    in for a big fine if any get into the water.  The DNR is supposedly
    really cracking down here in Michigan.
    
    Dennis

    Re:-1  Exactly...
    To clarify, after I drain/recover the antifreeze from the block,
    exhaust manifold, and hoses, The boat is run up in the yard while on
    the trailer.  What (very) little may be left in the system ends up on the
    ground (further diluted by the garden-hose water coming out the
    exhaust) and not in the lake.  Besides, gotta make sure the things gonna
    run *before* I get to the lake. :^)
    
    Doug

	Has enyone ever decided if the "pink stuff" antifreeze
contains any sort of corrosion protection?

Rick