Conference vicki::boats

    I would say that you really need both, I just moved up to a new
    30 footer this year also, and am saving my pennys for a tower and
    radar. I had a couple of close calls in the fog last summer, and
    quite often a radar ment the differance between getting out of the
    river or not. I had to anchor out for safety.
    
    They are two different machines and each do differnt jobs.
    
    The Loran is for Navigation- You would be hard pressed to find a
    particular spot in the ocean without it. Like you may run out to
    jefferies but you won't know where on jefferies you are?? Its a
    big ledge and runs for many, many miles. How can you chart a course
    offshore without loran? Sunshots? Starshots? How good at celistral
    Navigation are you?
    
    The Radar will be your eyes at night and in fog, It can help with
    coastal piloting but what about when your, say 30 plus Km from shore?
    Unless you have one h*ll of a radar it won't reach that distance.
    
    Most needed equip.
    
    # 1   Compass
    # 2   Depth Sounder
    # 3   Loran C
    # 4   Radar
    
    And above all is a VHF or two. 
    
                                         Walt
    

    I agree with Walt. If you are going to fish or navigate outside
    the range of taking good bearings on aids to navigation a loran
    is a must. The radar would be nice for night time and fog. You also
    need to ask your self how often do you think you will run at night
    or in the fog? Even with radar running at night and even worse in
    fog you may not be that comfortable that you would use it very often.
    I would also argue that you can get a good loran for $800 where
    a good radar cost over $2000, this would be enough to make up my
    mind.
    
    
    Bruce

    I'm not an expert, but----. I have heard of too many "mistakes"
    from loran. We had one this summer where a guy was running loran
    tied to an auto pilot and put his rig into a pier at 30 Kn. He thought
    he was 2 mi off shore! 
    
    I think with good charts, compass and a depth finder, you can pretty 
    well track close to a fishing "Sweet Spot". My worry is banging into 
    things in poor visibility. A really bad squall can be as bad as
    fog or a dark night. If it were me (and I don't have the bucks to
    do it) radar would come first. Might consider taking a good course
    on "Coastal Piloting" that would make using a loran less critical.
    
    Tough decision!!
    
    Don

RE:
>>  I'm not an expert, but----. I have heard of too many "mistakes"
>>  from loran. We had one this summer where a guy was running loran
>>  tied to an auto pilot and put his rig into a pier at 30 Kn. He thought
>>  he was 2 mi off shore! 


LORAN is an acronym for LOng Range Aid to Navigation.  It is just that,
an *AID* to navigation.  Just because some idiot puts it on auto pilot
at 30 knots is not the fault of the loran.  And it should definitely not
be used as a substitute for common sense.  I would tend to agree with
Walt's order of priorities:

                    1) Compass and VHF
                    2) Depth finder
                    3) Loran
                    4) Radar

(If all else fails, you did remember the flares, dye markers, life jackets,
EPIRB etc, right?)

Rick W.  (Whose_season_is_still_not_over_yet!)

Seems to me that loran and radar serve two distinctly different
purposes. Even when you have no initial idea of your location, loran
will tell you where you are (usually to within a quarter mile or so when 
offshore a ways). That is, loran is a navigational aid useful anywhere 
within a few hundred miles of the coast. Radar is useful in helping you 
to avoid hitting objects that the radar can see and in determining your 
precise position when you have a good idea of where you are to begin 
with. For example, if you just know that you are somewhere between Cape 
Ann and Cape Elizabeth  and you are in a dense fog, radar isn't going to 
help you much in finding out where you are, but a loran will.

A couple of thoughts. Yes, loran can be inaccurate if you don't know the 
local propagation errors. But if you've been to a location (buoy, whatever) 
once and have noted the time differences, your loran should then get you 
back to within 50 to 100 feet of that location again, day or night,
clear or fog. My loran has gotten me to many buoys in virtually zero 
visibility. The big propagation errors are in close to land. 

Radar is an aid to navigation, too, just like loran. Common sense 
dictates and the International Rules of the Road require that your speed
underway be such that you can come to a complete stop in a distance less
than half the visual visibility. For example, if the visibility is 50
yards, your speed should be such that you can stop in 25 yards. Radar
doesn't see many things -- floating logs, fiberglass dinghies, etc.
Radar doesn't allow you to go safely any faster than you can without it,
but it does make it possible to creep along more safely. Nor does radar
relieve you of your legal responsibility to keep a visual lookout at all
times. 

My impression (and only that since I don't own a radar) is that radar 
takes considerable practice and skill and concentration to use properly. 
Loran, on the other hand, is much easier to use and doesn't require 
constant attention. Interesting problem with radar: the Rules of the 
Road require you to keep a lookout by all possible means at all times. 
Clearly, it is next to impossible one person to steer, keep a visual 
lookout, and watch a radar set all at the same time. If by horrible 
mischance you hit someone, having a radar onboard just might increase 
your legal liability. 

Neither radar nor loran will keep the foolish safe from disaster (as in 
the idiot hitting the pier mentioned earlier).

 Thanks much for the quick response. I agree totaly that the best is 
both but again if you are faced with and ether or decision then the 
best need be compared with preference and the manner in which the boat 
is to be used.
 I have had several close calls in fog that has left me a little leery
about depending on loran, as was mentioned the major concern is 
avoiding obstacles. Even anchoring off and waiting for things to blow 
over can be risky particularly when you have captains cruising around at
30KN on auto pilot.
 Being familiar with Loran and it limitations under these conditions ,
let me ask just how good is radar, will it get you home in the soup as 
good as claimed and how long dose it take to get familiar with using 
it . My Loran took me almost two seasons to become comfortable with.
 Radar systems with 18-20 mile range can be had for 12 to 15 hundred
2k will get a system with 20 to 30 miles.The average Loran is on the 
order of 7 or 8 hundred and I am sure a top of the line Northstar
is well over 1K.
 I know I sound like I am pushing the Radar but I really know nothing 
about them and if they are really that good when the lights are out I 
would consider it. I love the ocean but I hate the fog.

		john g

    re: -1
    
    Using radar takes a lot of time to get used to. I've had one on
    a small boat for two years. I wouldn't be without it. I figure it
    adds 5-10 more fishing days a year, because it allows me to make
    a trip offshore in the fog.
    
    I still have trouble figuring courses of targets on the screen while
    underway. I just shutdown and watch them, alter my course and proceed.
    
    If your mounting the antenna low you will not be able to set much
    at 15-20 miles, and that depends on the weather. The more moisture
    in the air... less range. Expect to see small boats around 3-5 miles
    from you, larger boats around 7-10 miles. You will be able to see
    thunder storms up the max range of the radar. My R20 was a 16 mile
    unit, to the offered an upgrade to 24 mile, 1- eeprom. I can see
    storms at 24 miles, which give me the ability to have a better chance
    of trying to avoid them.
    
    

    A good easy to use loran will take you less than a season to get
    totally comfortable with.  Like you said it'll be anywhere from
    $650 up to around 2k (Nothstar is about $1800).  If you can navigate
    (dr) relatively well, and plan on doing lots of cruising where you
    might get caught out in rain/fog/night then you should look more
    towards a radar.  If you avoid the aforementioned weather conditions
    and need accuracy to a position, i.e. fishing, then look at a loran.
    A nice compromise might be an inexpensive radar (something is better
    than nothing) like the lcd from apelco, and a mid range loran.  
    Combined, they'll be less than a single mid-raneg radar, like the 
    R-series from Raytheon, or the low end vigil unit.  Paul O. just
    picked up the Apelco I think, and he'ld have some valuable input
    here.  Paul?
    
    Joe A.
    
    P.S.  Personally, I agree with Walt's list of priorities.  You don't
    want to be out in the fog anyway.

    Radars have their quirks as well as lorans. In a heavy rain or
    dense fog the water will reflect back the signals and cause the
    whole screen to become blotchy or solid and you will not be able
    to pick out actual targets. I guess some of this has to do with
    the power of the unit. This is why I would question how good
    are those low end apleco lcds. If they don't work well in heavy
    fog then what good are they? In my opinion as long as I have
    a 1/4 mile of visability I feel "safe" from collision because
    I will keep a sharp lookout. Paul please comment on your apelco,
    maybe it is worth buying?? 
    
    I have been in the wheel house of a party boat in  super dense fog
    and run under radar. It definitly feels good knowing what is or
    is not out there but it definitly takes two competent people on
    board to make it really safe. One to steer the boat and one to operate
    the electronics. If I ever catch charlie I will have have a radar
    after that, but for now I am very happy with my loran and just
    stay home when visablity is below 1/4 mile.
    
    Bruce

    	I installed a Raytheon R20 in the middle of this season, so
    I can give you some feed back from a new user. The installation
    went well and the manual made the operation of the unit easy to
    undestand. The hard part is in trying to tell the size of a target and
    being able to tell a real target from noise. A small runabout is
    hard to see unless your on a 1 mile or smaller scale. I also find
    that I'am always playing with the gain and tuning controls to get
    the best picture. We have a lot of thunder storms in the afternoons
    down here in New Jersey and they show up on the 24 mile scale real
    well. Using the Radar I have no trouble steering around them so
    I'am able to stay out and fish longer.
    	As far as using it to navagate in zero or low visability I don't
    trust the Radar or my ability to use it. The past year the Local
    Coast Guard went out on a real foggy day to help someone on a 44
    footer with Radar and ended up on the jetty of Barnagat inlet. Those
    guys have a lot more experience than I do and still got into trouble.
    Another example is the two ferry boats with radar that crashed in
    New York harbor.
    	As far as Loran goes its a must for fishing wrecks and it gives
    you a great comfort to know your exact posistion in case you get
    in trouble and need help fast.  

Re .8 & .9 >

	I can't shed any light on the Apelco RADAR yet. I bought it 
relatively late in the season and knew I wouldn't get around to installing
it until Winter. I don't expect to get much distance out of it but hope its 
enough to keep me off the rocks. I'll let you all know next season.

Base note>

	I rank the equipment as most of the preceding replies did; 
RADAR, although a valuable tool followed LORAN on my shopping list. 
	RADAR and LORAN are two complimentary tools; used in conjunction 
with compass, charts and SONAR they make up the best electronic arsenal a 
boater can have. In my opinion, LORAN can't be beat as a navigational aid. 
RADAR *ALONG WITH LORAN* increases a boat's safety in conditions of limited 
visibility but RADAR alone is very limited. 
	We all know that it is possible to get disoriented even on a clear 
day - with charts, compass and all. If getting confused on a clear day is 
possible then I doubt that RADAR would be much help in similar circumstances, 
especially in limited visibility. Knowing where I am and where I am going is 
very comforting to me especially in fog. Conversely, I feel that the accepted 
procedures for minimizing collisions in a fog do an adequate job, so I view
RADAR as helpful but not totally necessary.
	I am not downing RADAR; I bought one myself after an experience I
had last season where RADAR would have been very helpful. I was heading in 
from a day drift fishing off shore. I intended to make visual contact with a 
lighthouse/horn on a small island and then proceed around it. Well I never 
saw the island; it was covered in a fog bank. I heard the horn and watched 
the bottom come up on the fish finder as I poked  around trying to make visual 
contact but finally made the necessary course correction "in the dark". In this 
case RADAR would have made my job a lot easier but I'm not sure I could have 
even found the island without LORAN, since I was coming in from drift fishing 
offshore and therefore my origin was some unknown distance from where I 
started fishing. 
	To sum up my feelings, LORAN by itself gives you a lot; RADAR works
best in conjunction with other navigational aids. Therefore, LORAN comes first.

BTW - I got my unit for ~ $650. Its a low bucks, entry level rig but I hope
it will meet my needs. I paid more than that for my LORAN.

Paul 

 
 I am convinced, I will be purchasing the loran system first.

The feedback from the current radar owners is really conclusive. I had
not considered the difficulty factors in operating a radar system and
was not aware of some of the limitations such as false targets
resulting from noise interference.This basically conforms my original
concerns but it was good to hear it first hand. As with all equipment
of this nature it is only as good as the operator.

I have a friend who purchased a new boat with radar this year, and on 
one trip out in the fog he spent 40 minutes attempting to find what he 
thought was a sail boat just ahead, when it became obvious that there 
was nothing there he discovered he was observing the pennant on his bow 
rail. A little operator error maybe?

I really appreciate the response and the input I am still interested in 
purchasing a radar system but it may have to wait.

re .11

 Paul That $600 system you mentioned sounds interesting, how about a 
little more info. To bad you haven't had a chance to use it yet it 
would be good to hear how it works.

	john g

    Well, I learned a lot from this note---thanks! I don't have either
    a loran or radar. I have been out fishing with guys who have one
    or the other, but not both. My fishing is done on Ontario, so 10
    miles off shore is considered unusual. Up here, radar seems to work
    very well since we can always pick up shore. We are also usually
    not more than 15 miles from an inlet with piers, etc to get a "fix"
    on.
    The loran, however, sure does get you to a known hot spot real easy
    for fishing. Has anyone seen or used the new combination loran/depth
    finder units? I forgot where I saw them advertised, but I think
    they went for about $800.
    
    Don

    
    
    A dealer told me that Lorrance was coming out with a combination
    Loran/Depth Finder unit. No idea of the price as yet.
    
    /MArk
    
    
    

    The lowrance LMS 200 and 300 is an LCG with an optional
    loran C module. No idea of price. Split screen modes are displayed.
    Also some paper machine have a loran C input that alllows
    you to print td's on your paper.
    
    Bruce

    re .14 and 15  Yeah, why not ?  Whatever you want, just double click
    the mouse and open another window, right ?
    
    	R
    

    I'm always concerned with combining two necessary navigational aids.
     I think it would make you too vulnerable.  I didn't even combine
    my cb with my vhf for that reason.
    
    
    Ken