Conference vicki::boats

re .0:

There are a number of notes in the SAILING notesfile that address some or all 
of the questions that you ask. 

    
     You need to double check your fridge- is it an absorption cycle(
    heating ciuls) or conventional compression/expansion( has a
    compressor)?
    
     If it has a compressor- forget the inverter. INverters are N.G.
    when you use any induction motor-they also don't like high starting
    currents or surges.
    
    have you looked at a solar panel/battery combo?- I have a summer
    cottage on Hog Island in Naragannsett Bay and we have no electricity-
    most of us use gas regrigerators, 12v lighting/Tv's/stereos, and use a
    small solar panel which tops the battery right off during the week.
    
    Generators are a pain- they stink, they smoke and they make lots of
    noise
    
                 
    
    

    I had the same problem. For house power, i use 2 6 volt batteries
    house power, i converted to propane stove, i bought a small
    1kw portable generator, the gen. goes out on the swim platform,
    and runs for 2 hrs. daily. i can get everything except hot
    water. i have a total of 5 batteries, 2 6 volt + 3 12 volt.
    while the gen. is running i run the fridge, on 110v. and
    charge the batteries simultaneously. The boat is at a slip,
    but on the weekends, we anchor. Its beat our expectations.
    
    Oh one more point, we barely hear the gen. and most times
    arn't aware its there, and it does not live on the swim 
    platform. If you want to stay on a mooring, the cost of
    this equipment, won't come close to 1 yrs. slip fee.
    
    One more thing, a solar panel won't come close, and 
    generators don't stink.
    
    Stink Pot Jim./
    
    

re .3:

You may not be aware of your portable generator, but in a quiet anchorage 
others may be. Running engines of any kind, especially in the evening and 
early morning can be very annoying. Just my view.

    re .4  then you hann't heard a Honda.
    
    Jim.

re .5:

I like silence, not the noise of a running engine, when sipping my evening 
Pusser's rum. Except for the cry of a loon or the splash of a seal .....

Alan

PS I own a small Honda generator. Noisy little beast.

    re .6 I only run it in the a.m. after the herd is awakened.
    
          handy little fell's tho.
    
    Jim.

>     You need to double check your fridge- is it an absorption cycle(
>    heating ciuls) or conventional compression/expansion( has a
>    compressor)?
>    
>     If it has a compressor- forget the inverter. INverters are N.G.
>    when you use any induction motor-they also don't like high starting
>    currents or surges.

The fridge is the normal compressor type w/12v & 110v power.  I did not 
mean to imply that I would operate the fridge off the inverter.  The fridge 
could run directly off 12v on a third battery and I could use an inverter 
to operate 110v stuff.
>    
>    have you looked at a solar panel/battery combo?- I have a summer
>    cottage on Hog Island in Naragannsett Bay and we have no electricity-
>    most of us use gas regrigerators, 12v lighting/Tv's/stereos, and use a
>    small solar panel which tops the battery right off during the week.
>    
I have not considered a solar panel...thought it would not be capable of a 
serious charging challenge i.e. 90% of battery gone.

>    Generators are a pain- they stink, they smoke and they make lots of
>    noise

I tend to agree.  Room is a premium as well.  The swim platform idea is a 
new one but also filled with risk should water get a bit rough.  The noise 
issue in an anchorage is a real issue (although quieter than stereos 
blasting).  If I went this route I would only use it at my home mooring as 
people rarely spend the night (other than us devoted types).

I have read the sailing notes.  There is a lot of useful data there 
although not conclusive.  It seems that the way to go is a 12v battery (gel 
type) of the largest size that can be fitted.  Little has been written on 
the use of inverters for appliances.  As I understand the design a square 
wave is generated in the typical inverter.  Any impact on TV's, small 
motors, etc.

Any experience with various brands?  Sizes?

Carl
>                 
>    
>    
>

    There is some info on different types of inverters in the April
    15, 1989 issue of Powerboat Reports. They seem to imply that an
    inverter with enough surge current can run many types of appliances,
    microwaves, hair driers, space heaters.         
    
    

Don't expect that an inverter will run any major appliance for very long. The 
current drawn from the battery by the inverter will be about W/12*E where W is 
the 120v power used by the appliance and E is the inverted efficiency. For 
example, a hair dryer is about 1200 watts, typical inverter efficiency might 
be about 0.8, so the battery current will be about 125A. Your average 100 
Amp-hr marine battery won't supply this much current for more than a few 
minutes. A small color TV and VCR might use (a guess) 300 watts. For this the 
battery current will be about 30 amps. The typical battery might supply this 
for an hour or two. The only practical way to run high power applicances for 
any length of time is shore power or a generator. Or you could change your 
lifestyle -- keep food cold using an ice (that's frozen water) box and forego 
any 120 vac appliances. :-)

    Re: Generators
    
    Generators can be as quiet as you wish to make them. While the standard
    muffler is limited, it is a compromise of size and cost. A noise
    aborber/ muffler can be readily designed and built (or possibly
    purchased) that can keep the noise down to a whisper. I agree, we want
    moorings/harbors quiet, but very little has been done to re-design 
    generators to maximize noise.  Mostly, they have been designed to
    maximize output. I am going to be doing a little experimentation this
    Winter to see what can be done. If anyone would like to participate, 
    let us use this note. Over the years, I have been involved with a fair
    number of industrial noise control units.

re .11:

>>>   ..... very little has been done to re-design 
>>>   generators to maximize noise.  

HOORAY!!!!!! YIPPEE!!!!!! 

    Boy! If you want a fast response, just screw up once! Obviously,
    to "minimize noise"...When and where do you use your generator, Alan?
    

re -.1:

I bought my generator to use at home when Boston Edison fails (which is 
often). I haven't used it aboard my boat yet (and will only do so when I have 
to use a power tool). Our boat has a diesel engine and we only very rarely
have a small gasoline outboard along. I have an very strong fear of gasoline
on boats (to each his/her own phobia -- we happily have a propane stove 
aboard). 

Dare I say it? I am quite amused by the philosophical design differences 
between (most) powerboats and (most) sailboats. Most powerboats seem to be
unable to live without shore power (big 120 vac refrigerators and electric
stoves for example) while most sailboats seem designed to live independently
of the shore. Our onboard electrical consumption is low enough that we can
spend three continuous days at sea without running the engine to recharge our
batteries (oops, I've just admitted to owning a sailing vessel) while cooking,
and runnning the navigation lights, autopilot, loran, etc. A kerosene trawler
lamp keeps the cabin warm at night and provides enough light for everything
except reading. (Please, I'm not criticizing powerboats -- just mentioning
differences.) 

    Alan -
    
    	Even though I'm a "* Non Sail Vessel"  :>)     I enjoy the hook,
        do not enjoy a genset & have recently considered a kerosene
        lamp myself.    So tell me:
    
    	Do they emit much odor?
    	How clean do they burn?  (You know us P boats have white ceilings
                                  & condo like interiors vs teak)
    
    	Any special considerations I should look for in buying one?
    
    	How do they compare to lamp oil?
    
    	Ah - Just pontificate on the virtues & drawbacks of a K Lamp
             aboard.
    
                     Thanks,
                            Lou_the_only_non_sail_vessel_on_the_SAIL_fleet_list
    
        Any special considerations in buying one I should look for?

    
    HI AL 
    I also am interested in the Kerosene Tralwer lamp.Where can they be
    found, Ive never seen them in any boating supply places? One of my
    projects for my boat (besides rebuilding the engine) this winter is to
    design and install a cabin heater off the FW cooling system. (like a
    car has). I wonder why only water ski boats come with these?
    
    
    How about shareing the info?
    
                                Walt
     

re the last two:

High quality kerosene lamps are made by Den Haan (Holland), Harnisch (Germany, 
I think) and Weems & Plath (Germany) and are available from various mail-order 
catalogs (eg, West Marine and Boat/US). 

Lamp oil, now that whales are (mostly) protected, is simply very clean 
kerosene. We buy ours in one gallon jugs at our local lumberyard. A gallon
lasts a couple of years or more. 

There are many different kerosene lamps available. The light from most of them 
is rather dim. The brightest (equivalent to maybe a 200 watt electic light)
is the pressurized Tilley lamp (from Ireland, as I recall) that uses mantles.
I've never used one. Probably a bit hard to light, and the light output isn't 
adjustable.

The next brightest (of those readily available) is the Den Haan trawler lamp 
(about $150 list, $90 to $120 discount, but it is made of heavy, solid brass).
This big lamp (about 20" high and 10" around), the one we've had for several
years, has a large circular wick and, turned up high, gives just enough light
to read by. It also produces a lot of heat (nice in Maine in September). When
the wick is carefully trimmed, the lamp burns quite clean with little or no
odor. We too have a white overhead -- as do all proper yachts -- that we clean
about once a year. (Ceilings in a boat are the horizontal inner planks along
the hull covering the ribs -- he said with a smile). Soot has not been a 
problem at all. 

Some lamps have separate smoke bells, some (like the Den Haan trawler) have 
integral bells. The smoke bell is really to keep the very hot gases from the 
lamp chimney from scorching the overhead. The lamp should be gimballed so that 
it remains more or less vertical when the boat is bouncing around. The trawler 
lamp is designed to be hung from the overhead. 

The lamps with smaller wicks give enough light to cook and otherwise see what 
you are doing. They're rather like candles -- lots of romantic atmosphere but 
not much light. Turned down low, the trawler lamp is also very dim. 

I'd suggest buying a Den Haan with a spare chimney and an extra wick. Very 
good quality (unlike some of the far east lamps). We hang our lamp over our 
dining table during the winter. Looks quite elegant at sea or home.

    re .14, Alan, i think some of us knew you owned a sailboat.
    
    no problem, you might be interested in an article in the Nov. issue
    
    of Boating Mag. on page 32..
    
    
    Jim.

>re -.14:
>
>
>Dare I say it? I am quite amused by the philosophical design differences 
>between (most) powerboats and (most) sailboats. Most powerboats seem to be
>unable to live without shore power (big 120 vac refrigerators and electric
>stoves for example) while most sailboats seem designed to live independently
>of the shore. Our onboard electrical consumption is low enough that we can
>spend three continuous days at sea without running the engine to recharge our
>batteries (oops, I've just admitted to owning a sailing vessel) while cooking,
>and runnning the navigation lights, autopilot, loran, etc. 

I am quite aware of this almost philosophical difference in design 
approach.  I would very much like to have been able to spec my boat in a 
manner consistent with the above mentioned power consumption (or lack of 
it).  Fact is that I bought my boat used with a refrigerator, albeit it 
does run on both 12 vdc and 120vac.  Fortunately I have a combo 
electric/alcohol stove which does quite well on alcohol power.

I am trying to solve the deficiencies.  

Advice as to a properly configured system would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Carl

    	I remember seeing a system that a father had set-up for his
    kids. It was like an exercise bike except it turned a generator
    which I believe in turn recharged some batteries. The kids needed
    to run the exercise bike an hour or two a day if they wanted to
    watch TV. The same system may be scaled down to just the generator
    with pedals to temporarily bolt down in front of a chair on board. 
    It would be like a mandatory exercise regime. Of course, this could 
    get a little old after awhile too but it's a clean quiet alternate.
    
    	Another alternative might be a wind generator but these are 
    expensive and may take up more room than you'd like. It also only
    works when there's wind of your under power. If your under power
    then your already generating power.
    
    	As far as the generator being noisy/smelly, I can't believe
    it would be any more noisy/smelly then starting up your engine to
    accomplish the same thing.

    	Ray

    Rays little story gives me a headach/ No I mean an IDEA! How about 
    using water power to charge the batteries? If one were to take a
    automobile generator and gear it to a large multiblade propeller and
    incase the whole mess in a 5 gal bucket(sealed of course). Just hook it
    to your batterys and hang it overboard in the current. The more current
    the faster the Gen would turn. Of course you would need a voltage
    regulator in the bucket.
    
    Well what do you think? Is it marketable??
    
    Rough draft--- Add fins and round nose caps to bucket to
    hydrodynamically stabilize the rig. 
    
    Sailboats could use it while underway.
    Power boats while on the dock, But even better while on a mooring!
    
    

    Hey, Walt, it sounds like a BQR-15 or a BRA-8 from you know where!
    
    Mike

re .21:

Such water-powered generators are commercially available from at least a 
couple of manufacturers. They have several problems: They don't produce 
significant amounts of electricity below 3 or 4 knots (which is far more than 
the currents in the vast, vast majority of mooring areas). And the drag is 
considerable, which is a major concern with sailboats. (Rough estimate: 
something less than 8 hp is required to move my 32 foot boat at 5 knots, so 
any added drag is quite unacceptable.)

    Well Every time I think of somthing new, Somebody tells me they
    allready have one! Next thing your gonna tell me is they allready have
    a Naptha powered boat * :>(
    
    Well I'll just go back to thinking about Solar Power..
    
    
    Psssst... Hey Buddy Wana Buy a Good used C-3? I'll let you have it
    cheap!
    
                                         Walt
     

re .19:

There are two companies in Seattle (Cruising Equipment and Ample Power) who 
sells nifty (and expensive) 12 volt yacht power systems. Their catalogs are 
worth reading. I'll try to remember to post their addresses.

Your 12 v power concerns are somewhat different than those of a sailor since 
you, I assume, run your engine(s) a few hours per day whereas a sailor might 
not. Electrically driven refrigeration is a major consumer of electricity. The
refrigerator you have is probably not very well insulated -- well insulated
means at least 4, and preferably 6, inches of insulating foam top, bottom, and
sides. Access should be from the top, not the front, so that cold air doesn't
fall out when you open the door. Unless your refrigerator is well insulated, I
wouldn't even consider running it on batteries for more than a few hours. Good
refrigeration systems designed for boats also usually have a eutectic holding
plate (ie, something that acts like a big block of ice) to minimize compressor
running time. 

The other essential consumers of electricity at anchor are an anchor light 
(assuming your not in a designated special anchorage) and cabin lights. A 10 
watt anchor light uses about 10 amp-hours per day. Two reading lights would be 
less than another 10 amp-hours. A 100 amp-hr battery would provide about 50 
amp-hrs before it should be discharged. Things like TVs, extra lights, 
stereos, etc, quickly add up to significant extra electrical consumption 
(fresh water pumps run so briefly that they're not a problem). Getting along 
with minimal electrical usage is possible -- it just takes some thought and 
getting used to. We have three 100 amp-hr batteries, a single small alternator 
(about 30A max charging current) and manage on about an hour of engine running 
per day (which is getting into/out of anchorages mostly when cruising).