Conference vicki::boats

Doug,
I wouldn't do it.  Good quality conventional oils are a known entity,
and your engine will last a long time if you change the oil at the 
recommended frequency or better.

Putting aside any other arguments about the quality of the oil, it's 
going to cost you a lot more than $60 for this stuff for the boating 
equivalent of 50K miles of driving.   What about about the extra quart
you'll have to add at every filter change, to make up for the amount 
lost in the filter and normal oil burning?  At one filter change every 
5K miles, that's an extra 10 quarts you'll have to add, at $10/quart.  
Your $60 in synthetic oil is now up to $160.

I'd stick with a good quality conventional oil.

Rick

re                 <<< Note 930.0 by TOTH::WHYNOT "Malibu Skier" >>>
>                             -< Synthetic Oils... >-

	I havn't done it.  I've been putting enough hours on to need 
half a dozen changes a season anyway, so it didn't seem economic.  
Hanging around at diesel pumps and listening to owner/driver truckers 
I've formed the opinion that regular changes of the oil matter much
more than which particular oil brand or type (within reason).  One of 
the favorite oils with the tractor/trailer crowd seems to be Shell
Rotella T, gallon jugs were $4.29 at Spag's last week, sometimes BJ's 
has it, more often in Salem NH than Westborough Mass.  OK, so its a 
wider viscosity range than usual (15W-40 vs 10W-30),,, and viscosity
range extenders aren't supposed to be good for engines that are likely
to get a lot of use (especially diesels) but the truckers favor it. 

	Oh, synthetics such as Mobil 1 are reputed to find leaks that 
other oils wouldn't normally get through.  Opinions vary, but some 
folks say not to use them in engines that already have some mileage 
(hours) on them.... FWIW, etc.  

	Reg

PS  Summertime boats don't need wide viscosity range oils anyway - 
they don't get run much below 60, 50, maybe 40 degrees F.   
On the other hand, some Nautiques have been known to...  but that's on
the other hand  (-: 

    I wouldn't either. Its seems rather pricy, when you consider the
    qt. you use when you change the filter.  I don't get enough
    hours on a season typically 70-100 is my usual range.
    
    I use straight 30w, as recommended by the mfgr.
    
    I would agree with past replies, an engine with hours on it
    is probably best off left alone.
    
    As for slick 50 and the others, i think they are teflon based
    and are louzy with heat transfer..
    
    Jim.

    I tried Mobil 1 in my 1977 Dodge van (318 cu in).  The motor had about
    50K on it.  I never had to add oil and I did oil/filter changes on
    schedule.  I put Mobil 1 in and took a trip that weekend to NJ.  I
    used three quarts on the way down!  I think it cost more for oil than
    gas.  I changed back to a regular oil while down there and never had 
    a problem again.  Bottom line is that Mobil 1 is probably excellent
    for a new engine (why they affer an extended warranty) but once the
    engine is good and loose, Mobil 1 probably "slips" right by all the
    seals and rings.  
    I am considering using Ford Tractor 15W-40 in my boat.  I currently
    use it in my diesel tractor year round.  It is expensive but the
    ratings on it are unmatched by anything else I've seen.  It is
    required for my tractor because of the continued heavy duty use.
    Most of the guys at Chappell's Tractor also use it in all their
    vehicles.  They claim it's the best oil made.  I really abuse my
    tractor year round and that engine just keeps purring.  My second
    choice would be GTX 10W-40 which is currently in the boat (but not
    getting much use!)
    Wayne

    Dumb question follows. Depress <Next Unseen> to avoid.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    What's "synthetic" about synthetic oils? Are they not petroleum based?
    
    Thanks.
    
    
    
    
    Now off to post another dumb question in another topic.
    
    
    John H-C

    
    Even if you did go with an oil like Mobil 1, I would think you would
    want to change it as often as a regular oil. One thing you can't stop
    is the piston ring blow by and that is one major cause of oil break
    down and contamination. 
    
    I would have a hard time leaving oil in my boat more than the regular
    change interval.
    
    Craig
    

>>>    What's "synthetic" about synthetic oils? Are they not petroleum based?
    
No.  They're made in a lab from other raw ingredients.  And not all 
synthetics are the same base -- some are ethyl, some glycol, and there may 
be others, too.  Their advantage is that they're made of nothing but 
particular long molecules all of the same specific design and type, and
more resistant to heat, oxidation and other breakdowns than natural oils.
Petroleum oil, even with additives, is a mixture (controlled by refining
techniques) of generally longish molecules, with some shorter and broken
ones expected.  They break down more quickly than synthetics, which is the 
main reason the oil change intervals vary.  I've been told that commercial
jet engines use synthetics, change the filters on a regular basis, and
they only change the syn-oil when a major overhaul is required since it 
has to be drained anyway.  Some syn-oils, at least, can be chemically 
recovered, though I haven't heard of any facilities to do so on more than 
an experimental scale.

Today most all synthetics are designed to be compatible with petroleum 
oils, since they know that someone may add a quart of the old stuff to top 
up sometime.  Mobil 1 now advertises you can do this; they used to (many 
years ago, when it was new) say you had to flush your old oil out, run 
some M1 for a buncha miles, then flush and fill up for real.  AMSoil was a 
different base, and always promoted compatibility; in fact, they had a 
1/2 syn -1/2 petr brand for "economy".

I've always been a nut about engine lubrication, changing oil more 
frequently, etc.  On two cars, (VW Rabbit diesel and Golf GTI) I broke
them in to ~15K miles on petroleum oil, and ran AMSoil thereafter.  On 
that basis, it was a wonder, always started quickly in sub-zero weather, 
etc, etc.  Totally satisfied (though mileage didn't double or anything 
unusual like that) and nothing to complain about except some hassle in 
obtaining the oil locally.  The cost I figured evened out over the life of
each car.  Now I use Pennzoil at every 3K miles simply because it's so
easy to get, and changing that often probably doesn't mean synthetic would
gain me anything.  6 of one, 1/2 doz of the other.

BTW, additives such as Slick 50 are Teflon-based, and do not make oil
synthetic--it definitely requires changing on the base-oil's schedule.
They are merely friction reducers, in theory. 

Bottom line:  For normal auto and boat use, the cost-effectiveness of
synthetic oils is a toss-up, and the added benefits not that clear.  If 
you're running special engines, heavy loads, long duty cycles, etc, 
perhaps an argument can be made.

J.

    Can't get away from ring blow by....that alone has convinced
    me that frequent oil changes rather than specific type of oil is the
    single most important engine life extender.  The condensation problem
    with a marine engine would be more severe than in an auto.... what
    about that with an oil which is left in an engine for an extended
    period?  How would you measure change frequency in a boat?  Your
    only measurement practical is engine hours... and what kind of hours,
    low throttle, high or what?  My Isuzu Trooper II instruction book
    (2.2 liter turbo diesel) specifically warns against using wide
    viscosity oils... it says not to spread more than from say 20-40
    weight... not to use 10-40 oils for example.   I agree with the
    truckers, frequent oil/filter changes are the most important.
    
    Jeff

Agreed....crankcase condensation will mean more frequent oil changes, and
anything that increases oil consumption will make the cost of syn-oils
relatively higher.  On a boat, I'd definitely use a better quality
petroleum type. 

J.

    
    I've been using Kendall or Amalie, the heavy duty types.
    
    When you pick up an oil container, about the only info
    i find is the ASE designations, SF SE and so on.
    
    
    So what is the difference between these and Castrol, 
    Pennzoil etc.
    
    JIm

    Thanks.
    

    I remember asking this questions at the Formula marina to one of the
    mechanics and waited for him to stop laughing.  His non-technical 
    opinion is most important thing that is most damaging to marine engines
    is heat.  He also explained that the SLICK50 etc... boast of
    "SLICKness" and pointed out if you took apart an engine left it several
    months it is still "GREASY".  But if I wanted to spend the money they
    would sell it to me.  The only way that synthetics, or addatives are
    of any use if if the engine is NEW, and since engines are run 1-2 hours
    either at the factory or the marina, they are really never new unless
    you have a rebuilt.  (which I unfortunately had to do 2 season's ago
    and I asked if I should do it then and was told .... 25 hours new then
    every 50 hours, and never put the boat away with the old oil.
    
    
    mimi 
    

    Mobil 1 is an excellent motor oil, period.  Whether it should be left
    in longer is up to the owner.  
    
    Carl
    

    RE: the difference
    
    I dunno, as far as I can tell any of the major brands are good.
    I usually use either Castrol or Kendall, whichever I find on
    sale, and a Fram or STP filter.  The only major brand I stay 
    away from is Quaker State - it could be that it's fine now, but 
    years ago I saw a motor that had always used Quaker State and it 
    was full of sludge like you can't imagine.
    
    I just bought a case of Sunoco Ultra, which I've also used in the
    past and seemed to work fine.  $10.99 a case plus a $3 mail in 
    rebate.  FWIW, I change the oil and filter in my '87 Dodge/Mitsubishi 
    pickup every 3-4K miles, and after 126,000 miles it still runs great 
    and doesn't burn a drop of oil.
    
    As someone else said, "IMO" it's the frequency of the changes that
    increases engine life.  I can't imagine leaving the same oil in
    for 2 or 3 years and allowing it collect moisture, combustion by-
    products, etc.  I don't care what the people pushing this 50K mile
    oil tell you...
    
    Rick

    RE: Slick 50
    I once saw a display at a flea market that seemed pretty impressive.
    They had a horizontal shaft lawn mower engine, and had replaced
    the side cover with clear plexiglass so you could see inside. They 
    claimed the engine was treated with Slick 50, and ran the motor for 
    the ENTIRE duration of the flea market (several hours) with NO oil 
    in it.
    
    How well this relates to the real world I have no idea.  But most
    lawn mowers don't seem to fare too well when you run 'em out of oil...
    Rick
    
    P.S. Who knows, maybe they installed sealed bearings with grease
    fittings on the crank and rod, and ran 50:1 gas/oil to lube the 
    rings?

re                 <<< Note 930.0 by TOTH::WHYNOT "Malibu Skier" >>>
                             -< Synthetic Oils... >-
    
>     Doug _ going for the long haul...
    
 
	If you're REALLY planning to keep the boat for a  LONG 
time its probably not the engine that you need to worry most about, 
though the boat becomes pretty useless without it.  Ford Windsors 
aren't THAT expensive, (neither are 4 bolt main Chevvies) and the 
worst things that happen to them are well known to auto machine shops. 

I'm trying to convince myself to spend more time and effort on the 
upholstery, thats what seems to deteriorate first and its probably 
where your efforts will be most rewarded.  {IMHO, etc.}    Getting new 
seats or new seat covers for a 5+ year old boat may be worse than 
expensive, it might be IMPOSSIBLE !   *-IF-*  you winterize its 
probably worth hosing all the vinyl down with Amorol just before 
putting the cover on and crying into a 6-pack.  Cheer up, spring will 
soon be here.

How does it go ?

	Water-skiing in New England, a four season sport:


	For the next three months it WILL get colder (Dec, Jan, Feb)

	then, for at least the next three months, it will get warmer
						      (Mar, Apr, May)
    
	the next three months is when the traffic comes back
						      (Jun, Jul, Aug)

	THIS is the three months when we get the water to OURSELVES !	
    

	Reg

    I was thinking of ordering a new hull/interior, and dropping in my
    engine/transmission, and reusing my trailer...Just a thought.
    Based on all the feedback, I'll continue with my "regular" 50 hr oil
    changes using GTX and Fram...
    Doug_fogged and pickled for the next three months :^(

    AH!	 The old synthetic lubricant question.  Synthetic lubes were
    originally developed out of desperation.  It seems that petroleum
    based lubes just can't cut it in a high heat, high stress environment
    like a jet aircraft engine.  As a licenced aircraft mechanic, I can
    tell you that all the good stuff that you hear about synthetic oils
    is probably true.  I have been using Mobil 1 for years, since it
    became available on the consumer market.  It was like a dream come
    true.  Here was synthetic oil every bit as good as the outasite
    priced aviation stuff but you could buy it at the corner gas station
    for five bucks a quart.  Now a days, it's three-fifty a quart at Spags.
    My own experience with Mobil 1 in a four cylinder auto engine proved
    all of it's claims and then some.  I only changed the oil once a year
    no matter how many miles I put on the car.  The last year I had the
    car on the road, I put over twenty thousand miles on that engine and
    that year it past one hundred thousand miles.  I tore the car apart
    to prepare it for racing and I took the engine block to Montys machine 
    shop in Winthrop(I believe).  When I went to pick up the block which
    had been overbored, Monty told me that I must have changed the oil
    every thousand miles.  I said "No, I changed it every year, whether
    it needed it or not".  The engine was seven years old at the time.
    Monty didn't believe me, even when I told him that it was no joke.
    he said that he miked less than one thousandth of an inch wear at
    every location on the crank.  No need to turn it undersize, he just
    buffed up the journals a little.  He also told me that the maximum
    cylinder bore wear was four thousandths of an inch, in one cylinder
    and the rest were all less than three thousandths.  In every other
    location that I asked him to spec, the engine was within NEW engine
    tolerances.  I was pretty amazed myself and told Monty about my using
    Mobil 1 oil.  Now I should say that I have worked on engines for the
    past thirty years and never had I seen anything like that up until
    that point.  I had used Mobil 1 in cars that I owned previous to that
    one, but I never tore down any of the engines.  I was always well
    satisfied and my used cars demanded premium prices on the market
    and not one of them had less than one hundred and fifty thousand
    miles on it when I sold it.  They all ran very good and had I known
    what I now know about Mobil 1 and engine wear, and could I have proved
    it, I'm sure that I could have sold those cars for even more money.
    With Mobil 1, I may not have saved a bundle on oil changes, but I dont
    even want to think about the hassles I missed.  Not only is it easier
    and better for your engine, it is better for the environment as well.
    Engines start better in the cold and they actually do get better
    mileage, even if it's only a small percentage improvement.  I can't
    think of any negatives to using Mobil 1, it's by far the best oil
    you can buy today.  While it is true that Mobil 1 will leak more than 
    other oils, leaks are a sign of a defective engine seal.  Engines in 
    good condition will not leak any more with Mobil 1 than with conventional 
    oil.  One thing is for sure, if you have a leak, Mobil 1 will find it.
    Oh, and another thing that I forgot to mention, when I tore down my
    engine, there was absolutely no sludge to be found anywhere.  Synthetic
    oils just dont break down, that's what they were designed to withstand.
    The inside of an engine run exclusively on synthetic oil will look just
    as good after thousands of hours of operation as it does when new.
    	One last point.  When I attended DEC's Reliability University
    several years ago, I met a man by the name of dr. Leonard Lamberson.
    He taught a course on mechanical reliability.  It seems that dr.
    Lamberson is THE reliability consultant to the American auto industry.
    He claims that now-a-days, reliability has become a big thing for them.
    They all want to know how to build cars that are as reliable as the
    Japanese models.  Everyone was trying to get him to tell them what kind
    of car was the most reliable produced in this country.  He would not
    answer those questions.  I caught him driving up one morning in his
    Ford LTD.  That day at lunch, I asked him what type of oil he used in
    his cars.  He told me that following the manufacturers recommended
    break in period, he used only Mobil 1 and that he never changed it!
    He would change the filter every three thousand miles but that there 
    was no need of ever changing a synthetic motor oil!  Now thats the way 
    to save money...
    
    		Don
    			

    Re. -1
    I'm not as knowledgeable as the previous noter, but I will echo what
    he's said about syn. oils.  I used to be one of those that changed oil
    and filter every 3K miles in my cars.  When I bought my Checy S-10
    pickup (88K miles ago), I started using Mobil 1 after the break in.  I
    change it every 15 to 20 K miles.  I'll never go back to regular 
    petroleum based oils in my vehicles.  Even when I do drain the oil, it
    still looks quite good and clean.
    
    One thing I can add that might not have been said earlier and was told
    to me by I guy who's been rebuilding all types of engines (auto, gas,
    plane, marine) for about 40 years.  Synthetic oils are great if you use
    them from the start on an a new or rebuilt engine and if you decide to
    go over to using petroleum based oils, OK.  But NEVER switch from
    petroleum based to synthetic oils or as he put it, your engine will
    leak oil like a sieve.  Seems the seals just don't take the switchover
    at all.
    
    He also told me to make sure the new or rebuilt engine was broken in on
    whatever the manufacturer recommended and then at the first change, use
    50/50 synthetic mixed with petroleum based.  After that, straight
    synthetic.
    
    A convert.
    

    
    It seems to me that 'any oil' does three things:
    
    	1- Lubricate to reduce friction
    
    	2- Cool via carrying away heat - because there was still 'some'
    	   friction
    
    	3- Clean - that is carry away particles that came from the 'some' 
           friction
    
    Most of the notes seems to discuss the first two; but, ignore the
    cleaning aspect. That's why we have a filter.
    
    Some of the 'oils' that last a long period of time are simply stating
    that they do not break down and loose lubrication or cooling
    capability; but, the particles of normal wear would still be in
    suspension -- in effect this seems to approach some form of sand paper
    in your engine.
    
    Agreed changing the filter gets some (bigger) particles out; but, I'll
    continue with frequent changes just to insure I have a 'clean'
    lubricating/cooling media.
    
                                    Lou

    I have run petroleum oils in my 2.2 Liter turbo diesel since it was
    new.
    I change oil and filter every 3 K miles.  The engine runs 'like a 
    kitten at 85 K miles'.  Doesn't burn any oil.   Anyway, 10 miles after
    an oil change the dipstick reveals BLACK oil.  The SOOT in a diesel is
    there even after a frequent oil change.  I wonder how the Mobil 1 would
    stand up to a turbo diesel.  Any experience out there?
    
    Jeff

    
    
     i wouldnt be too concerned about oil getting dirty as long as its
    changed frequently.
    
    most oils are designed to hold smaller particles in suspension 
    this causes them to look dirty "its doing its job" and not leaving
    sediment around the engine, or at least thats
    what my teachers used to tell me when i was apprenticed.
    
    perhaps the synthetics are so good there isnt as much wear and so look
    cleaner ???? 
    
    reg
    

RE: .20,

>>>    	2- Cool via carrying away heat - because there was still 'some'
>>>    	   friction
    
...and there's this little event going on a few dozen times a second in 
each cylinder called "combustion", which also produces a little heat.  ;-)

>>>    Some of the 'oils' that last a long period of time are simply stating
>>>    that they do not break down and loose lubrication or cooling
>>>    capability; but, the particles of normal wear would still be in
>>>    suspension -- in effect this seems to approach some form of sand paper
>>>    in your engine.
    
This is a key point.  AMSoil makes a big pitch to use their "depth-type" 
filters, rather than the usual paper-type, claiming theirs gets more of 
the really small stuff out of the oil, thereby further reducing wear.  

BTW, most filters push the oil through a paper filter designed to trap the 
particulate; when/if the paper clogs enough to reduce the flow, there's a 
pressure valve built in (spring-loaded) which forces oil around the 
element to keep lubrication to the engine.  Depth-type (AMSoil's term; 
I've never heard of it elsewhere) filters look more like white fiberglass 
building insulation inside, and supposedly the specially-designed fibers 
trap much smaller particles, either mechanically or perhaps through some 
electrostatic or chemical bonding.  Of course they cost more, twice 
the price of a top-rated Fram filter.  

J.

    There is quite a difference between over the counter filters.  Ever
    seen one of those parts store displays with several different brand
    filter cut open?  I have, and in some cases there is quite a difference
    in media.
    
    Jeff

    
    This is getting interesting. 
    
    Wonder if we should change filters more often, say half way between
    
    oil changes. I'm referring to boats here.
    
    JIm.

    re: .25
    
    Seems if you have to change a filter it's because it's not filtering 
    anymore ---- so there are some small particles still in suspension --
    
    these particles would quickly be picked up by a new filter -- making it
    an old filter real quick.
    
    My take is still change both the oil and filter at recommended
    frequencies and it's probably the single best thing you can do on the 
    maintainence cost vs effectivity curve.     
    

    I used to be an AMSOIL Distributor.  The special depth type filters are
    availabe for SOME engines.  They use a filtering media which filters
    out smaller particles than the stock filters. Yes, it does count. 
    Particles = engine wear.  The more you get out of the circulating oil
    the better.  Where to find the filters?  Usually they are used in
    commercial applications, especially for diesel engines.  Try a call
    to a heavy equipment dealer... maybe they can steer you toward parts
    sources.  But, these filters will not fit just any engine.
    
    Jeff
    

    Given the mess I made the other day changing my filter, if I were to
    start doing it more often I would consider a remote oil filter set-up
    so that the filter would mount vertically instead of the current 
    horizontally on the side of the engine.  If you really want to clean
    the oil you could go with dual remote filters.  You could very easily
    run the lines to an oil cooler while you were at it.  Remote filters
    are very easy to install and would make hard-to-access filters easily
    changeable.  They are available for most engines at any good auto
    speed shop or thru J.C. Whitney.  There used to be a remote oil filter
    that used a roll of toilet paper as the filtering element.  A six pack
    of Charmin would probably last the season.
    Wayne

    
    This may sound like an odd question, but will dual filters
    give you that much more filtering..  are they in series..
    
    What is the cost for a remote dual setup..$$$$$$$
    
    JIm.

    They do run in series.  I don't know how it exactly works.  I would
    think the filtering benefit could be that you could run filters that
    had a very close weave in the mesh.  The close weave would cause the
    first filter to clog up quickly, the relief valve would pop open and
    then the second filter would do the filtering until it clogged up. You
    would probably end up changing two filters in the same time you used to
    change one but you also would be removing smaller particles during that
    time so you wouldn't need to change the oil as often plus the engine
    would last longer.  These are all guesses.  I would ask at a speed
    shop.
    Wayne

    Dual filters seem to keep the oil real clean. I repowered by boat with
    twin 351 (250hp) Marine Power inboards. They came with remote dual
    filters on each engine. I have 120 hrs. now and only changed the oil at
    20 hours after breakin. The oil is still so clean you have to look
    carefully at the dipstick to see the level. At this rate, I'll go to
    200 HRS before I change it.
    

    If the filters were run in parallel, one fine mesh and the other coarse
    you would have the best of both world... the coarse filter would take
    out the big particles.  Depending on the predominance of particle sizes
    one filter or the other would clog first... then you could change just
    that filter instead of both at once.  
    
    Jeff
    

    Filters run in parallel would behave like resistors run in parallel.
    The finer mesh would offer higher resistance forcing all the oil thru
    the coarse mesh filter.  Doesn't sound like you would ever filter the
    fine particles but you would be changing the "coarse" filter as often 
    as a single filter set-up.  I suppose if the relief valve requires a
    higher force to open it than the amount of resistance presented by the
    finer mesh of the other filter (blah, blah, blah).  I still like the
    inventiveness of the guy who designed the toilet paper filter.  Think
    of the time you could save by mounting the remote filter assembly on
    the wall in the head.
    Wayne

    I once knew a guy who was a distributor for the toilet paper filter.  
    It was a remote oil filter setup that used just an ordinary roll of toilet 
    paper that you changed every so often.  He had his mounted high on the
    firewall of his 62' Dodge Lancer and I watched him take the cover off
    once and check on the condition of the toilet paper.  I was mesmerized. 
    He claimed that if you were diligent about changing the toilet paper, you
    could get many extra thousands of miles on your oil.  At that point, the
    engine would probably be full of sludge if you used petroleum based oil
    but if using a synthetic oil, toilet paper is probably the way to go.  
    I had totaly forgotten about the toilet paper filter until you mentioned 
    it here Wayne.  At the time I first saw it, I checked into it and it was 
    indeed the best filtration medium available, although it was expensive.  
    Where can you get one of those today?  I wonder how it stacks up against 
    the best conventional oil filters like Fram which was rated superior to 
    anything else on the market the last time I saw a lab test.  Also, you 
    make a good point about the relief valve on an oil filter.  If you don't 
    change your filter often enough, you run the risk of pumping unfiltered 
    oil through your engine.  Any engine would suffer undue wear under those 
    circumstances.  As far as dirt in the oil goes, well, that's what the 
    filter is for.  You can keep synthetic oil clean for a long period of 
    time with regular filter changes.  Anyone who has used or is using 
    synthetic oil knows or can find out just by "feeling" the oil on the 
    dipstick that synthetic oils have a superior lubricating quality.  Not 
    just when new, but even after 20,000 or more miles.  Petroleum oils not 
    only look bad when it's time for a change, but if you were to rub the 
    stuff between your fingers(Not recommended for bare hands as oil is 
    highly carcinogenic after exposure to combustion by products, use 
    latex gloves to handle it) you'd find out just how unlubricating it's 
    become.  Not so with synthetic oils like Mobil 1.  It will feel just 
    as good when it comes out as when it went in.  Pretty amazing stuff.  
    Anyone who is not using it in an expensive engine that they want to 
    preserve has, shall we say, "missed the boat".
    
    						Don

    REf the comments on dual filters.  The one I added to a merc 260 was
    definately two FRAM PH-8A's in parellel.  The advantage to the dual
    filters is lower pressure drop for a given oil flow rate.
    
    The price for the one in JC whiteny is about $30.  You will have to
    make a mounting bracket to hold it.
    
    Ken C
    
    

    The type of dual remote filter setup sold by JC Whitney currently, has
    the filters in parrallel. The pressure build-up must be less, but other
    than that, the filter could be changed on a single filter setup at
    twice the frequency and your oil would be able to stay cleaner. Have
    you read about recycled oils? They are made of old oil, which has been
    filtered back to clean-looking oil. A noted mechanical authority has
    made a pitch for using these oils, saying that oil doesn't break down
    in normal use (as in not being burned over a flame) and the recycling
    process has to do little besides clean the oil to restore it to good
    for market use. Not that I'm advocating the use of used oil, I'm just
    pointing out that if you clean oil well enough, it will look new again.
    The only thing in the world that will do that is the oil filter. CHange
    it, without changing the oil,and it will soon be full of that matter 
    that had made your oil look black. 
    
    I just added a single remote filter setup for my 175 HP OMC. The 4.3
    liter engine (V6) puts that filter way back near the flywheel. I hated
    that position, and always made a mess in the bilge, which I always
    cleaned with hot water and dishwashing liquid. I sprang for JC
    WHitney's remote mount kit, and bought one for my wife's dad as well,
    with the same engine and same oil-changer (me). It worked well. I
    mounted the filter on the front wall of the bilge, and mounted a
    rubbermaid plastic food-keeper tray under it, so when the filter comes
    off, any oil that drips will not hit the bilge. I almost can't wait to
    winterize next year!! (Well, I'm not THAT sick!) 
    
    As for the dual filters, I doubled my filter space already by going
    from the small normal 4.3 l V6 size to the PH8A-size. That's just about
    double! 
    
    Mike

    A few years back Consumer Reports did an article on oil filters (I'll
    have to check and see if it's in one of the "annuals").  They said the
    toilet paper filter setups were bogus, because the paper breakes down
    and circulates with the oil.  Also, the paper won't filter the correct
    size particle.  
    
    Carl

    Many years ago I read an article in Popular Mechanics about Mobil 1
    oil.  I believe it was shortly after it was anounced.  A Ford engineer
    was evaluating this oil.  He ran it in a new big block ford and NEVER
    changed the oil only the filter every 3000 miles.  After 100k miles the
    engine was torn down and all measurements compared to factory new
    specs.  The engine was all within factory new specs.
    
    I haven't used this oil in any of my vechicles but have always been
    going to try it.
    
    Gordon

RE: .31, 

>>>  The oil is still so clean you have to look carefully at the dipstick 
>>>  to see the level. At this rate, I'll go to 200 HRS before I change it. 
    
Discoloration is largely due to suspended particles not trapped by the 
filter, and so your oil may still be clean of metal, free carbon and 
oxidation particles.  Most of these particles are small enough that the 
wear they add is inconsequential; good filters are designed to catch and 
hold all those that can really do damage.  But the other way oil fails
people sometimes forget is that it breaks down and thus fails to lubricate
as well, even if still translucent. 

Oil is a collection of long hydrocarbon chains, and in use these chains 
adhere to some degree to metal surfaces while sliding across one another 
with minimal friction.  Longer chains (very symmetrical and stably bonded, 
even if some of these bonds are weaker than others) slide past each other 
with less friction than do shorter chains.  In use, these chains can be
mechanically broken as they mush around between moving parts; they can be
broken down by heat which causes the chains to subdivide; and they can be
compromised by many kinds of additives such as moisture, oxygen,
combustion by-products, etc.  Imagine plotting a curve of lubricating
ability against percentage of long molecules in the total mix; the curve
drops off increasingly rapidly as the oil breaks down, which increases
heat and thereby increases breakdown....  Moral:  Oil needs changing on
schedule *regardless of its color*. 

RE: .34, 

The main reason syn-oils feel so much more slippery than petro-oils after
20K miles is that they are engineered to contain both *more* and *more 
stable* long molecules.  The greater slickness is an obvious indicator of 
how successful they are (which is why they get so much per quart in 
comparison.)

RE: .37,  

Back when the TP filter was dreamed up, cars required 3000 miles of 
breaking in, often at speeds as low as 40 mph.  Cars (i.e., engines) today 
are built on machines which hold tolerances to a few 1/10000 vs maybe a 
few 1/1000 of before, and so breaking in is not as lengthy or critical as 
it used to be.  Wood pulp can contain all kinds of stuff, including 
chemicals and minerals either from the tree itself or as dirt on the bark
or logs.  Its use as a filter medium is questionable at best, since to the
best of my knowledge, TP is not engineered for sustained chemical or 
mechanical stability under temperature, load or wetting. ;-]  (I do like
the idea mentioned of mounting the remote filter assembly at a convenient
height and reach for servicing from the white porcelain Filter Maintenance
Seat.) 

J.

    There is another reason to use syn oils such as Mobil-1.  Heat.  When
    I added the remote oil filters I also added a oil temp gauge to the 
    oil flowing from the pump.  
    At 3500 rpm cruise the oil temp was 260-270 deg F.   WOT would peg 
    the guage at 300+.  I would guess there are parts of the engine that
    would be close to or above 350.  Regular oils start to breakdown at
    350 to 400.  At these temps regular oil is marginal.  I had a choose
    now to use a syn oil such as Mobil-1 or add an oil cooler.  
    I added a nine inch long oil cooler after the filters.   The oil temp 
    now runs 210 to 230 at cruise and 250 to 260 at wot.   This the proper
    operating range for oil.  Just above the boiling point of water to boil
    out the condensation.  
    
    The oil I have been using is a straight non syn 40 weight just 
    like the plate on the engine calls for.    Change the oil mid season
    after about 60 hrs and again in the fall.
    
    Ken C   
     

    There have been several VERY convincing arguments made for using
    Mobil 1 Synthetic oil.  Next time I buy a new car or a 4 cycle 
    powered boat I'll have to give it some serious consideration.
    
    However, even the biggest advocates of Mobil 1 readily admit
    switching from conventional oil to Mobil 1 will cause severe
    oil leakage problems.  Once you start with conventional oil
    you can't switch over.  I don't know about you, but I don't see
    a whole lot of DEC employees buying new cars or boats right now.
    Most of us are holding onto what little cash we can stash away.
    
    So for now, and until the economy improves to the point that I
    feel good about taking out another $10K+ loan for a new car or
    boat, switching to Mobil 1 isn't an option for me.  It could be
    a while before that happens...
    
    Rick

    Is an engine which is in excellent conditon (burns 'no') oil, no
    visible pan leaks etc. a candidate for Mobil 1?  I realize you have
    been saying no don't use it if it isn't a brand new engine... is 
    that recommdation valid 'all' the time.   
    Jeff

    re. .41	Rick, I have "switched" to Mobil 1 on several used cars
    	    with no oil leakage problems.  I don't think that just the
            changeover will cause undue oil leakage.  One car that I
            bought had 170,000 miles on it when I switched.  It was 11
            years old at the time.  It had leaks when I bought it and
            when I put synthetic oil into the crankcase, the leaks
            became worse.  In fact, they were easy to pinpoint after
            switching to Mobil 1.  After fixing the leaks, there was
            no problem.  One thing that I have noticed when using 
            Mobil 1 is that if you have a leak, it will seem to get
            worse using the synthetic.  I believe that this is caused
            more by the synthetics greater ability to flow easily than
            by just switching types of oil.  Both synthetics such as
            Mobil one and non-synthetic conventional oils are compatible
            with the seals found on modern engines.  Synthetics were
            designed to be phased in and eventually take over the market.
            Its like anything else, once people become educated to the
            superiority of synthetic lubes, they will more readily accept
            them.  This process always takes time, but acceptance of a
            superior product is always inevitable.  The other thing that
            I noticed is that "American" built engines seem to develop
            more leaks than others.  At least, they seem to have more
            leaks when I get them used and they typically use more oil
            for whatever reason when I buy them new.  I have not had
            many different brands of "foreign" engines to draw experience
            from, but they have all been superior in this respect.  I have
            several cars now that were built in Germany more than ten
            years ago.  Mileage on them varies from 104,000 to 231,000.
            My wifes three year old "American" made car engine uses more
            oil and did since it was new.  Why?  I don't really know or
            care, her car is a good one and the engine is great, just
            uses, somewhere, more oil than all the old clunkers I have
            hanging around.  Her 1986 model did the same.  Her 1976 model
            did the same.  I had one small, cheap, new, Japanese car with a 
            three cylinder engine that I litterally beat the living *ell
            out of and never did I have to add any oil between yearly
            20,000 mile plus changes using Mobil 1.  That experience was
            truly remarkable, especially since I have owned motorcycles
            of the same brand that developed leaks rather quickly, albeit
            they were air cooled engines.  Using Mobil 1 is not so much
            a decision to be made when you are buying new, it is more of a 
            decision to keep your engine * like new.*  If your engine leaks
            oil, then for the sake of this planet and everything on it,
            FIX THE LEAK!
    
    			Don

    Well, I am in the position of being able to try Mobil-1 in a new
    engine, specifically in a new boat bought last Fall with delivery
    for next Spring. It is a 260 Mercruiser in a 21 ft runabout. Should I
    use regular oil for break-in/warranty period and then switch, or switch
    immediately? What is the preferred method?
    
    Thanks,
    Larry

    Gee, 45 previous replies and no one metioned something that WILL make
    your motor last MUCH longer (the company needs to work on advertising
    their product!). 
    
    Regardless of what kind of oil you use, the one thing that wears out a
    motor more than anything is when you first start it.  It takes time for
    the oil pump to build the required pressure to properly lubricate the 
    motor.  It has been estimated that up to 70-80% of the wear that a
    motor experiences is at initial start up (boats sit longer than cars
    between use, the oil runs back into the oil pan, so I would guess that
    boats experience the worst wear).
    
    ANYWAYS, there is a product called the PRE-LUBER which is essentially
    an externally mounted oil pump.  You turn it on before you start the
    boat - it builds oil pressure in the motor. (It also pumps old oil out,
    making the oil changes real easy).  It isn't cheap, but if your going
    for records on engine life, it's a prerequisite.  You can find the ads
    for this product in some boating mags - HOT BOAT, TRAILER BOATS, etc...
    If I ever buy any car/boat new, this is the first addition that I will
    make.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Peter

    Ever heard the ad which says 'the worst thing you can do to your engine
    is start it"?  The oil co which sponsors the ad is making the point
    that you should use THEIR oil because it protects the engine from start
    up engine wear.  The prior noter hit it on the head when he said a
    pre-luber is for those who are trying to set records with engine life.
    
    I have considered a pre luber for my turbo diesel (in an auto) but
    decided against it because usually other parts wear out first, (body
    etc) long before the engine wears out on me because use a 2 to 3000
    mile (and filter) oil interval change.  I 'havn't worn out an engine
    yet" following that schedule. So when you look at todays prices for a
    pre luber (many hundreds of dollars) plus installation I figure the
    engine will last long enough without it.  If I was trying to keep a
    boat/car for a lifetime I would go with it though.  
    
    Something else that helps.... when I start my 350 Cu V-8 after it has
    sit for a few weeks I don't let the engine start until I have oil
    pressure on the gauge.  I crank the engine with throttle closed and 
    choke off (yup its a manual choke) with the starter until pressure
    builds... then I choke and advance the throttle and the engine starts.
    
    With my diesel auto I don't load the engine, or rev. the engine until
    presure is up to 50-60 PSI.  On cold morning starts I let the
    engine idle at dead slow speed for 45 seconds to a minute before
    driving off slowly.  Since the diesel starts within a few revolutions
    no matter how I try to delay its starting I must let it start before
    pressure builds.  
    
    I hear people start their auto engine on a cold morning occasionally
    and they then proceed to 'floor' the throttle with a deal cold engine
    racing for a few seconds to keep it from stalling.  I shudder to think
    of whats happening to those engine bearings and cylinder walls.
    Don't buy a used auto from one of these people... I don't know how you
    would know an engines history though.
    
    Jeff

    since we all know that mobil-1 or equivalent is the best oil to use, 
    and some folks feel that slick-50 is the thing to do to prevent wear
    upon initial start up,  wouldn't it make sense to use both?  are they
    compatible?  has anyone tried this or seen any written info on trying
    this?
    
    regards,
    steve

RE: .48,

Reminds of the guy who had an old clunker, then added some new-fangled 
oil additive that promised a 30% increase in mileage, then new-design plugs
guaranteeing a 25% improvement, special fuel good for 25% better mileage,
and the latest tire design proven to offer 30%m more miles per gallon.
After that, all he had to do was remember to empty the tank every few
hundred miles....  ;-)

Even if they are chemically compatible (which isn't clear), given the
costs of MOBIL-1 and SLICK-50, it's hard to imagine anyone could benefit
from the combination of both enough to justify them together over either 
one alone.  FWIW, isn't MOBIL-1 glycol-based, and SLICK-50 another one of 
these Teflon products?

Also, I just noticed an ad in Autoweek for 104+ Octane Boost's latest
product -- an oil additive they say is better than the PTFE (Teflon)
products, which in their terms is prone to "crack, peel and flake off." 
Who knows....  Theirs has molybdenum disulfide, "an organic metal--not a
man-made synthetic [sic]" and thus "it coats engine parts instead of 
bonding them...."  They say "Oil Boost will increase your gas mileage up 
to 20%."  [Methinks the operative words there are *up to*.]  "Special
introductory price only $14.20.  Call toll free 1-800-468-7637."  Caveat 
emptor.

Anyway, Probably any of these will provide >80% of all the reasonably 
available friction reduction of the best among them, and who can tell 
which is truly best?  Figure your oil change schedule, quantity (which 
matters with MOBIL-1), and best price to you, and then simply do the math 
to pick the best buy.  

Of most interest to me is what interactions might occur in the marine
(salt) environment which could differentiate product performance in
possibly significant ways.   But then I'm not sure there's enough benefit
there anyway to be worth the hassle or the money.

John.

I see that there is now a marine flavor of Slick-50.

I have a friend who is co-owner of a 357 Formula and uses an oil additive 
called Miltech (sp?).  The boat has twin 420 gas engines. He and his co-owner 
(brother) claim that this Miltech stuff is much better than Slick-50.  

I currently have a Mercruser V8 just out of the break-in period (aprox 35 hrs),
and am wondering about oil options.  So far, I have used Mercruser oil (big $s).
Does anyone know if Mercruser makes any specific recomdations about synthetic
oil or oil additives?

Matt

    It looks like the current wisdom about synthetic oils is that you
    should change your oil every bit as frequently as you do with
    petroleum-based oils. This is mainly because of the bits you scrape off
    your engine, during normal use, floating around in it.

    There was an article yesterday in one of the New Hampshire Sunday
    papers about a company in Derry (??) that sells oil and air filters
    for commercial vehicles (although they could be used anywhere). They do
    such a good job of filtering that some of the fleets using them have
    trucks with 800,000 miles on them without changing the oil plus they
    have never had to do an engine rebuild.  Obviously, how good you filter
    your oil may be more in important than what type of oil you use.  They
    also feel that the added oil cooling that these filters provide allow
    the oil to stay thicker so that wear on the engine is less.  I would
    imagine that these filters are so big that only a few of us with large
    boats would have the needed space to install one.
    Wayne

    
    Wayne, got any more info on these.  Mfgr.  size etc.
    
    even a larger boat may not be able to accomodate these.
    
    JIm

    Jim, the name of the company is TEK 5 (originally International
    Lubricants) of Derry, NH.  Here's another little tidbit to chew on.
    DeMoulas Market Basket has their 257 vehicle fleet equipped.  They
    have one refrigeration truck with 4 million miles on the original
    un-rebuilt engine!  I find that hard to believe.  Imagine how many
    years it would be before you would have to repower!
    Wayne

    
    Well with the intro of the 10-20 yr lightbulb that works on
    
    radio waves, why not..
    
    JIm.

    I saw an oil filtration system installed in a Hatteras
    long-range cruiser.  With whatever it did, the oil was
    supposed to last 'forever'.  This was an early '80s model
    boat.  

    As far as I know, it had nothing to do with the guy in Derry.
    So, I don't think he's the only one with the idea.

>>>    I saw an oil filtration system installed in a Hatteras
>>>    long-range cruiser.  With whatever it did, the oil was
>>>    supposed to last 'forever'.  

I've heard from a couple sources that commercial jet engines use 
synthetics with sophisticated filtration systems, and don't get any oil
changes except during overhauls.  We don't seem to often read about a jet 
going down because of "viscosity breakdown" or some other kind of oil- 
related failure.

Assuming the hype about being a fundamentally different type of molecule 
is correct, then why not build one that can virtually last forever?  If 
the .02% (out-of-the-blue guess) of molecules that do break down are 
trapped by the filter and removed from the system, as long as it's topped 
off, the system just keeps on going.

Unlike for jet engines, though, petroleum-based oils are good enough for 
most reciprocating engine uses.  And since we've subsidized oil production 
and refining for so long, we get some of it back in cheap petro-oil.  If 
syn-oil never requires replacement, where's the money in it for producers? 
Filters?  Exorbitant initial cost?  That looks like how they do it now...

;-),  J.

    The catch with 'forever' oils is mostly with contamination of the oil.
    If the filtration system can't filter out the metal dust, carbon
    particles, and other crud which blow past the rings and acumulate
    in the oil it doesn't matter how long the base molecule can last.
    If you can put in a stable oil molecule, and have an almost perfect
    filtration system, THEN can can talk about 'forever' oils.
    
    Jeff

    So, bottom line..what's the scoop on commercial auto oils (30W) for
    marine use? Does OMC or Merc have a secret blend or can I simply
    purchase what's on sale?
    
    I've noticed also that Slick 50 has a "Marine Version". 
    
    What's hype and what's fact ?

    I've been having good luck with merc 4 cycle oil. I have 950 hrs
    on my 1989 big block chevy. The oil is a 25-40 weight. The price
    isn't too bad when purchased by the case. I think I payed $38.50
    for a case of 6 gallons. Merc is also offering a $6.00 rebate per
    case.
    
    Steve

    My docs on my 78 Ford 302 CI OMC clearly state *straight* 30w oil. Is
    that a magic additive for marine?
    

Does anyone know of a lab where I can get an oil sample analyzed? The oil is 
out of a merc 7.4l, 454 chevy. I send a sample out every spring and get a
report showing "no above normal engine wear". This time around I got a report
that said the oil was basically dirty with carbon and burn fuel, stuff that got
by the rings. The report also said there was "no above normal engine wear".
They suggest that the filter is dirty or the screen is plugged. The filter and
oil are changed every 125 hours, the oil had 55 hours when the sample was 
taken. It still looked like new, hadn't turned black yet. 
The lab I used was Detect Auto Labs, I'd like a second opinion before I start 
looking at things.

Thanks
Steve
              

    RE: .62
    
    Try Don Percy at Lubricants International, Derry, NH.  
    Located off of South Avenue, in the vicinity of the Derry VFW.
    (603) 434-4109.
    
    	-mike-