Conference vicki::boats

    	I have some questions of my own on this topic. In several notes
    it has been suggested that if you share expenses with your crew
    it could be interpreted as chartering for hire. It was also been
    infurred that if you do this without a valid captain's license you 
    could be liable for some sort of damages should an accident or injury
    occur to one of your guests. What I would like to know is what is
    the rationale behind this point of law? I am having a hard time
    connecting the lack of a license with the liability. I could see
    how *HAVING* a license with the prerequisite training and experience
    could set you up as somewhat of a proffessional and would *INCREASE*
    your liability towards your guests ("You should know better"). In this 
    interpretation not having the license is a violation of the law but I 
    don't see why it would increase your liability.  
    
    	Can anyone help me out with this?
    
    Paul

     Reference .1
    I can't explain the rational behind it but what you stated in your
    note is true. If you except anything from someone you invite on
    your boat it is considered chartering by the coast guard. I think
    they are trying to prevent boat owners from chartering without a
    licence and if money changed hands it would be hard to tell if it
    was just shareing expenses or if a profit for the owner was involved.
    What seems really strange is that if someone even buys you a beer
    for taking him out it can be considered chartering. As far as the
    liability question goes, if your just an ammature you would not be
    expected to have the knowledge or experience of a captain although
    you could still be held liabile for an accident. Excepting any
    compensation means that you would be held to the same level of
    liability as a captain would even though you did not have the license.
    There is also very large fines involved if the coast guard catches
    you in violation of this rule.
       By the way there is a good artical in this months Offshore magazine
    on some resent changes to the testing procedures for captains licenses. 

    Well, it seems as usual that the Feds left hand doesn't know what its
    right hand is doing. The FAA rules explicitly say that a non-commercial
    aircraft pilot can share expenses like gas and oil with his passengers.
    Do the boating rules say anything explicitly, or does the USCG just use
    their own interpretation? 

     I haven't seen the law written anywhere but it is mentioned in
    Chapmens. I also took a captains license prep course at a local
    night school last winter. Our instructor was from the coast guard
    and the subject of liabilty and what is considered chartering was
    discused. 
       I didn't take the exam yet because I still need to be certified
    in first aid and CPR but I have a pretty good idea of whats expected.
    The first part of the test is rules of the road on which you have
    to score better than 90% to pass. This includes stuff like day shapes
    and lights that are used when a ship is doing commercial towing,
    fishing etc. The coast guard has a book thats about 200 pages and
    you have to have it all memerized to pass this part of the test.
    If you get through rules of the road than they test you for navagation,
    boat handling, safety, charting & plotting and weather.    
    
    rich.

    The chartering rules are not a new thing- I ran afoul of them in
    1964-1966 when we ran an 84' yawl on the great Lakes. We tried every
    variant of payment you could think of, but all of them meant we
    were carrying passengers for hire. We shifted the problem, by doing
    a bareboat charter to a single individual, if he chose to bring along
    20 friends, and they volunteered to split the costs with him, it
    wasnt any of our business- It didnt work- the Coasties eventually
    hit us with a $2500 for carrying passengers without a license.
    The skipper for all this was a friend, I was sort of the First
    Mate/Engineer so I didnt share the fine!

    Anytime you accept payment or goods from a passenger, you are carrying
    passengers for hire. Clearly the Coast Guard cant run around nabing
    every boater on ocean for violating this, but it is, and has been
    for years, against the law.

     Since CG Captains licenses have been discussed in various places
I thought I'd pass this on:

(reprinted w/o permission from the Feb. 89 issue of Power and Motoryacth)

"If you're interested in getting one of the many Coast Guard captain's
licenses, we have some good news for you.  Last August, in response to a
request based on the freedom if information act, the Coast Guard finally
released more than 18,000 test items on both computer tape and in printed form.

Houston Marine Trading Services has broken down the information into a number
of question and answer study guides and computer software than can give you a
peek at the actual questions you will see on the test.  At present, information
on both rules of the road and piloting is available, and they include all the
illustrations and diagrams used in the test.  Navigation problems are also
covered in a series of books targeted at the 6-PACK to Masters tickets.  For a
gfree catalog of the books and software, call Houston Marine Services at
1-800-535-8803."

                                 Come on iceout!

                                      Tom Urban

    I just received some info from Sea School out of Long Island, NY. They
    will be offering a 2 weekend (4 day) course as preparation for the
    Captain's License (6-pack to 100 Ton) in Braintree, MA. in October. I
    am thinking of taking the course ($545) prior to taking they exam. They
    claim a large % of their students pass the exam and they allow you to
    re-take the course until you pass the exam.
    
    Does anyone have any experience with these folks? They offer the
    courses from Maine to NJ and also in the Floriday area. Any info on
    these folks or any other exam prep courses would be appreciated.
    Thanks.
    
    Fred Smith
    

Hmmm, I've been wondering about getting a license, but I really can't 
think of a good reason to do so. Licenses now require that you pass a 
CPR course and pass a drug test, which raise the cost quite a bit. If 
you take folks out on your boat for hire, then you need (undoubtedly) 
more costly business liability insurance. If your boat is documented as 
a pleasure yacht (as mine is), you can't legally use it for business 
(ie, taking folks out for hire) and I can't drop the documentation until 
I pay off the mortgage (and besides, I really don't want to for several 
reasons). And finally, the license is a really chintzy, cheap-looking 
piece of paper that wouldn't even look nice framed.

re -.1:

Sounds expensive. There is a place on the north shore of the Boston area 
(Northshore Houston Marine Training or some such) that is about the same 
price and you can do the learning at your own pace. Plus, they have 
previous license exams accessible via computer (your IBM-compatible PC 
or theirs). I question whether you can really learn all you need to know 
in four days -- there is an awful lot to learn, so much so that you 
quickly forget much of it. 

    My reason for doing it is 'because it's there'. Seriously, I figure
    when I retire (or before), I would love to drive someone else's
    boat-ship-yacht for hire. It could range from yacht deliveries to
    charter fishing, to driving a ferry, to driving some wealthy persons
    65' motor yacht when they decide to come aboard. The CPR and drug test
    are not that expensive and the CPR is good for everyone regardless of
    occupation.
    
    Sea School claims they use the prior exam questions also, and they have
    PCs that their students can use until the exam is passed. It may be
    that self-paced is useful for some people, however, I have usually
    found that I do better in a classroom environment.
    
    Fred Smith
    

    I may be wrong, but I believe the CG has dropped the CPR requirement.
    They figured out that if the captian is performing CPR, nobody is
    left driving the ship.

re .10:

It was still required as of 2 or 3 months ago.

    CPR is available at all major DEC sites, usually at lunchtime
    (at least here in ZKO) and costs nothing.  Here it takes 3 2-hour
    lunchtimes.
    
    Bill
    American Heart Assn CPR Instructor
    

    
    >>>> CPR is available at all major DEC sites, usually at lunchtime<<<<
    
    Not surprising given the food at some of the sites....    :-)
    

RE: .8,

>>>  If you take folks out on your boat for hire, then you need (undoubtedly) 
>>>  more costly business liability insurance. If your boat is documented as 
>>>  a pleasure yacht (as mine is), you can't legally use it for business 
>>>  (ie, taking folks out for hire) and I can't drop the documentation until 
>>>  I pay off the mortgage (and besides, I really don't want to for several 
>>>  reasons). And finally, the license is a really chintzy, cheap-looking 
>>>  piece of paper that wouldn't even look nice framed.

Liability insurance above what you already have is not that expensive.  
It's the damage coverage that costs so much, and if your insurance knows 
you're running a head boat, they might raise that premium for even the 
same coverage.  

My understanding is/was that if you have a license, you can carry up to 6 
paying passengers on an "uninspected" vessel.  I did for a few summers, on 
our 33' documented ketch, and in the little town I was in, I was well 
known by the Coasties, by whose station I passed every time I left and 
returned!  (My license, BTW, is for unlimited passengers on inspected 
vessels of XXX tons up to YYY miles offshore in certain waters for which
I've passed a series of local knowledge exams.  It entitles me to carry
only 6 or fewer on uninspected vessels, no matter where I operate.) 

And, with all due respect, Alan, chintziness is in the mind of the 
beholder.  My license is engraved in two colors, rather archaic-looking, 
about 8"x10", and objectively looks quite official and attractive.  
And after what it takes to earn one, it looks very impressive!  

RE: CPR,

Anyone driving a car, let alone skippering a boat with anyone aboard, 
should have CPR -- it's easy, vital, and inexcusable not to learn.  When 
an instructor goes around at the beginning of each refresher class, it's 
always astounding to me how many people have actually used their CPR 
training sometime -- typically more than 25% of those in the room, not
counting any EMS professionals in that number. 

J.

    CPR certificate is required and should indicate completion of the
    course whitin the past 12 months.I just happen to have the CG booklet
    for the general requirments concerning original small vessel license
    applications.If anybody is in need for a copy I can send it.
    A couple points about licenses.
    I was told by a wise sailor that if you don't really  need a license don't
    get one, because in a case of an accident, if there is any gray line the
    burden is more likely to fall on the license holder.Of course we can
    argue that the opposite will happen because it may seem that the
    license will carry more clout.
    The other thing is,if you want to get a license don't pay the $500.
    Just get the License study Guide from The Arm chair sailor or someplace 
    else for no more than $50 and study.IT IS EASY as I was told by people
    that went thru it and got one.
    
    
      

re .14:

The times they may be a changing.

The license my friend got very recently is definitely chintzy and not at 
all like yours -- one color, poorly printed, with some words XXXXed out
and others added with a typewriter. Maybe they'll send him a nicer one 
some day. When he was handed the license, the Coast Guard officer made
a specific and pointed statement to the effect that the normal
documentation is for PLEASURE use only and is not valid when taking
passengers for hire. At least this is what my friend thought he heard 
the officer say. 

Re insurance cost: In today's legal environment, I'd expect liability 
insurance to be quite expensive. Course, I could be delightfully 
surprised. All of my personal liability policies exclude any coverage
for business endeavors. 

Alan

    I have noticed mentioned in a few places of folks that either have got
    or are in the process of getting a Captains License..I was wondering
    just how many in the conference actually had a license. If so what
    type and rating. Did you find any benifit in getting insurance, or find
    any of the associated laws a benifit or hinderance.
     Just comparing notes..
    
    Thanks
    
    Jim

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    I'm working on all the various changes that I need to make to be legal.
    There is one set of rules to carry passengers for $$ and another
    set of new regs around commercial fishing. I have already put the
    process in place to change my documentation from pleasure to
    commercial. At a minimum it looks like I need all Class I PFD's
    with lights. I'm am sorting through the EPIRB, surival suits,life
    rafts.....
    
    Bruce

I have an Ocean Operator's license (a.k.a. "100-ton") for Auxiliary Sail, 
which is good for Power as well.  It was not something attained casually, 
but a requirement in my earlier career as an Outward Bound instructor.  In 
fact, it is up for 5-year renewal this spring, and I've already begun to 
review Rules of the Road in anticipation of the test; 18 our of 20 are 
required to pass, at least at the last time, or one has to come back a 
month later for a second chance!  (Hmmm...what lights show on a dredge
being towed by a submarine about to submerge?  :-] ) 

Usefulness?  I can get a job running whale-watching boats, ferries, dude
schooners, etc, for what that's worth; there aren't many jobs of that ilk
available now, even if I wanted one.  Those all must be registered or 
inspected vessels -- definitely not worth the hassle if you don't need it.
I could go back to work at Outward Bound in Maine (much fun, but miniscule
pay.) 

I can do all a six-pack allows, and did day charters for a few years on my
33' auxiliary ketch.  She was documented, but not inspected, so I
sidestepped 95% of the bureaucracy.  Only insurance was a big hassle; I 
went naked then (but wouldn't now!) to save considerable additional cost.

The only real use recently has been occasionally as license aboard small 
sail training vessels (volunteering to the Rockport Apprenticeshop in 
Maine).

The main benefit now is that insurance companies automatically offer the 
best rate; a photocopy of the license seems to satisfy any questions.  
And chartering boats is easy; experience is not a question.  Finally, it's
been wonderful in getting some good crew positions; owners and captains
are impressed. 

J.

    
    
    	BOAT U.S. had an article regarding changes in the 
    	base capt license going from a 6-pack to a 12-pack to 
    	align closer to SOLAS (Safety Of Life At Sea) = closer
    	to the rest of the world.
    
    	Initial changes (it sez) is only in classing a cap't for
    	12 passengers for hire.  Later it may mean some changes in 
    	safety gear for certain vessels or areas (they mentioned
    	life rafts ).  
    
    	At the same time the CG is to also create words around the 
    	"consideration" issue that makes it possible to be fined for
    	a recreational boater from accepting compensation in the
    	form of items like food from their friends (extreme case everyone
    	uses as an example) yet protect the charter vessels from 
    	unlicensed captains taking charters and stating the people
    	are friends.  I didn't see any clear verbage that made the
    	issue crystal clear, though they state words like voluntary
    	and food ...
    
    	the 12-pack was news to me (when my boat grows up I intend to 
    	finish my days requirement)
    
    						- Ed

    Does anyone know:
    
    1.	Is there any limit on the size or characteristics of a boat
    	that you can operate without a "captain" masters license from
    	the USCG?   (Assuming it is not in commercial use.)
    
    2.	What it takes to obtain said license?

    You need a captains license to operate any boat for hire (towing,
    charter, fishing....). There are 3 licenses that are common,
    Inland, OUPV (6 pack) and Masters. The 6-pack lets you take up to
    six passengers on an uninspected vessel in near coastal waters
    (up to 100 miles). A masters lets you take a vessel up to 100 tons
    with as many passengers as its inspected for (there is usually a range
    of operation attached to the license. The inland is for rivers and up
    to 3 miles beyond the demarkation line in near coastal waters.
    
    Bruce