Conference vicki::boats

    I am in the process of looking for a new boat (my second) and I will
    relate what I have learned. The best thing to do is first decide
    which boat you want (this is the hard part). Then start calling
    every dealer near and far and find out their prices. You will
    probably get a range of 5k or so depending on how much you want
    to spend. Then take the lowest and start calling again saying
    so and so has the boat for this price can you do better....
    Then once you get a feel for the real price of the boat, go to
    the dealer you really want to buy from and talk serious
    (ie. cash in hand). You will never get the lowest price until
    you say you are ready to buy. Then be ready to get up and leave
    if they don't do better on their price...just like buying
    a car! Seriously the boat I am pricing has had quotes from
    38 - 44k on the phone. I think I can buy it for around 36...we
    will see how I do.
    
    Bruce

    This is a tough area. It seems boat dealers aren't as flexible as
    automobile dealers. Boat dealers figure what seems to be obvious....
    You DON'T NEED a boat like you NEED a car, so if you're willing
    to buy something you don't really need then you must be willing
    to pay the price. Boat dealers can hang together here and in general
    keep the price of the same boat, dealer to dealer, pretty competitive.
    You really don't know how well you can do unless you're prepared
    to play your cards 'really' close to you're chest. As 0.1 pointed
    out, One way would be to enter the dealership with the attitude
    of buying and if you find that he is much lower than what you've
    seen elsewhere...then (1) He's offering you the best deal, or 
    (2) maybe you really haven't hit the bottom yet.
    
    I've was bitten by the boat bug big time last year. (Say it 3 times
    fast). Again, you don't need a boat like you need a car etc. so
    I decided to begin saving toward a reasonable down payment and shop
    around and learn more about what I was getting into. I plan to purchase
    this Oct./Nov. when the prices are better than they'll be next summer
    for a 1989. I figure anything worth having is worth waiting for.
    Sooooooooo, 
    I've taken the time to visit dealerships, asking the prices but never
    playing it out as if I were going to buy that minute. I feel you
    get a pretty good idea of what you can expect to spend this way.
    Also, walking around the marinas and speaking to the people who
    own the boat you want to buy gives you an idea of weather or not
    the dealership they dealt with was reputable etc. and wheather you
    want to do your business there. Also if you know you are going to
    wait a year to buy...shop for the price of the boat at various times 
    of the year, (the year before) so you can get an idea of 
    the discount you can expect to get the following year off the retail
    price. Numbers I've heard quoted are discounts of 10% off the boat
    and 15% off the engine (assuming outboard) are generally the norm.
    Of course your mileage may vary but these numbers are what I believe
    you can expect without much, if any, haggling. Then you work a little
    for the electronics , coast guard pkg. etc. It all depends, as always,
    on the type of boat you're looking to buy and the time of year you
    buy it.
                                                               
    /MArk
    
    
    
    
    

    Just want to say I agree with mark...I have been "shopping" for
    over a year now and examining which boat I want to buy ect. If
    you are not in a hurry you have a big advantage. The key is that
    when you are ready to buy make it clear to the dealer that you
    are going to buy a boat and if not from him then someone else.
    No one likes to have their lunch eaten by someone else.
    
    Bruce

    
    Boat dealers do have "bluebooks" to determine fair market price.
     Ask to see the bluebook on the boat you want, or better yet go
    to the library and look it up so you have a good idea what price
    range you are in.  When you know the price you can then undercut
    it.  Also many boat dealers carry boats on consignment and can only
    go down so far without asking the seller.
    
    good luck
    
    Jim
    

    There is a "Blue Book" for used boats (like for cars), but most
    marine dealers won't let you get at it. Suggest you get friendly
    with a local banker. They have them to figure out their risk for
    boat loans. Some will tell you what the wholesale/retail value is.
    Some will not.
    
    Good luck
    
    Don

    re .5	Y'd think our good ole Cruddy Onion would have a copy,
    or at least have access to one.  They make boat secured loans, don't
    they ?
    
    	R
    
    {Credit Union, if you insist !}
    

    The 'Blue Book' you're refering to is known as the "BUC BOOK" of
    used boat prices. I haven't found a library who has one but yes,
    all the dealers do.
    
    For instance- Last year ('87- end of season) I visited a few dealers
    carrying the boat I'm interested in, looking at the 'end of season'
    pricing or what many dealers consider their "Leftovers" since the
    '88's were in. This year I consulted the BUC BOOK for the '87 price
    and made a comparison of what the dealer wanted. You can get an
    idea of the spread between left overs pricing, prime time pricing,
    and perhaps the Boat Show pricing is somewhere in between. This
    may give an indication of how low 'you feel' the dealer can go....
    After all he does have a 'Bottom line price' he won't dip below.
    
    I also believe the BUC BOOK gives you an indication of the 
    depreciation (yearly) of a particular boat which also should be taken into
    account when selecting your $$ TOY $$. The average period of time
    for a boat owner in the northeast to keep there loan/boat is 2 3/4
    years. Which says that in 2 3/4 years, you either sell your toy
    and get out of boating altogether OR you roll the loan over to buy
    a bigger (usually bigger) boat! So, my feeling is that I want to
    buy a boat that retains its value so I don't take a bath up the
    road.    
                        
    MArk

    How good are "last day prices" at a boatshow.  during the sports
    and outdoor show around here everyone shows up on the last day thinking
    that the baots will be drastically reduced because the dealers really
    don't want to drag them all back to the shop and would rather sell
    them "at cost"
    
    Any truth to this?

    Chances are.....the boat at the boat show has not been 'totally'
    serviced. They're just for show so why go through the engine for
    all the fluids and checks etc. And, if I'm not mistaken, most dealers
    I've spoken to ( along with some boat owners) say that they must
    deliver the boat to you during a check-out ride on the water. Some sort
    of liability reasoning...(this however, might only apply to boats
    beyond a certain length.??)
    
    The "In The Water Boat Show" is another story. Obviously the engine
    must have been serviced if they give test rides and some dealers
    come to the show (with a couple boats) by way of the water. From
    what I've been told, you can negotiate a decent price for the boat
    in the water used for display-even on the first day of the show.
    You just understand that a bunch of people are going to be aboard
    your boat till the show is over.
    
    /MArk

    The in water show in august is the best show for seeing boats by
    far. Especially when you want to see dream boats. Its a lot easier
    to sail a 30+ foot boat up to the in water than to trailer it to
    the winter shows. Also these boats are all rigged so you see more
    options ect. The Boston in water is a good take in if you have never
    been there, will be comming up in august (not sure of the date yet).
    I doubt you can test drive a boat at the in water...if you go
    you will see the boats are packed in pretty tight with
    anchor rodes for the larger boats everywhere.
    
    Bruce

    Having Owned a boat shop in the past, I'll give you my two cents
    worth.
    ach dealer is different in there sales pricing and policys, The
    perfered dealer to look for when buying a new boat is. ( I just
    bought my new 30 ft a couple of months ago) one who does not have
    a lot of overhead to deal with. ie: What does there place look like?
    How long have they been there. Do they appear to be strung tight
    for cash?? 
    
    Once you evalueate there needs, You will know if they can offer
    you a fair deal. Remember these guys have to make a living too.
    So a fair profit is in order.
    
    What are you buying?
    1) Service- look for a long established dealer with a good reputation.
    2) Quality- look for a well made brand, not just well known.
    3) price- Sometimes you have to travel, but if you save enough;
              who cares.
    
    Boat Shows- Depending on the type of boat( Size) and where the dealer
                came from ( Canada maybe??) who might find that they
                would just as soon not take it back to the shop.
    
    Normally the boat show boats are on finance and the clock is running.
    every day that it sits unsold costs the dealer money,So make a deal
    buy it before the show??? if you know what you want, and let them
    use it as a demo. or gt to the show on the first day, And buy it
    then.  This does not allways work; But I would say its better than
    a 50/50 . Maybe 70% or so.
    
    Another good way is to find a boat that has been in inventory too
    long. This means that the dealer will sell that particular boat
    for less than the dozen others next to it.
    How do you know??? Read the Hull #'s. They will tell you when it
    was made and from there you wil have an idea of when the dealer
    took delivery.
    
    I could go on and on, But I should proberlly just write a book or
    maybe offer a buying service,? Ya! thats the ticket!
    
                                                  Walt
    

    re  "Boat show boats"   I was in Grafton yesterday lunch time (errr,
    Yes, AGAIN !) and mumbled about how it would be nice to drive one
    but nicer yet to ski behind one (hinting that I was close to a purchase
    decision, but see my personal name of late).  The lady told me how
    expensive it gets to have demonstrator boats in the water.  The
    finance company owns the boats on the floor, if they go in the water
    the finance company wants 10% paid off each month (I assume of the
    retail), so that's ~$500 a week just to have it floating around
    in case some old tire kicker wants to go for a ride.  Just by being
    IN THE WATER, potential customers view it as a used (for demos) boat
    and expect a hefty discount.  Dealers have to make it up somewhere,
    so this means less they can take off the list price of every
    deal they make.  Most of this 'seemed to make sense' at the time
    she said it, though one would have to understand their model of
    their business a lot better to know if it really makes sense, for
    example paying off a boat to the financer is a cash flow question
    though it may not be a "cost".  Webster Lake Marina will give demo
    rides in MasterCrafts, though it seems that the ones they actually use
    for this are recent low hour trade_ins (guessing).
    
	re  Ex used car salesfolks;  I think I've sensed some similar
    attitudes in some dealerships.  They seem to figure that brand XYZ
    franchises are few and far between (in the north east, anyway) and
    you've come to them for the boat that you really want (maybe don't
    need) and since the nearest other franchise is >100 miles in the
    other direction, they've got you over the proverbial barrel (guess
    again fellah).   Knowing that it isn't like Ford or Chevvy dealers,
    one just can't find a dealer for every brand in every town, we're
    somewhat captive and they know it.  I seem to get asked where I
    live almost everytime I go into a boat dealers', I'm probably going
    to start lieing pretty soon, pick a town that I know has THE MOST
    reputable dealer with the best service and say I'm from there :-^)
    Service and warranty work IS an issue though, whatever might go wrong.
    Even if its fixed the first time, there's a lot of towing to be
    done if the nearest service is > 25 miles away (there and back to
    drop it off, plus there and back to pick it up = > 100 miles).

    	R
    

    Reg.
    Find out who that dealer has for a floorplan finance co. Thats a
    Great Deal!! 10% Mo.  The one I used "Borg Warner" Wants 100% payment
    if the boat touches water.
    
    With Demo's- Wow! They are nice. What type of boat are you looking
    for anyway?
                                     Walt
    

    re .13	Denny's in Grafton is the dealer, no idea who their
    bank is though.  I s'pose that you could casually enquire if you
    ever wanted to start a boat shop, now THERE"S an idea !
    
    	I have this weird feeling that I  "ABSOLUTELY NEED"  a "fer real"
    type of ski boat and that my skiing isn't going to improve a hair
    until I get one.....  strange, eh ?

    	Reg
    
    

    SO you want to start a boat shop. Eh? Well I just might be persuaded
    to do it again. You'd have to twist my arm, Mind you.
    
    If anybody would be really interested in doing a boat shop ? I would
    more than entertain the Idea.
    
    Drop me a note on E-Mail or call or write me at my home address
    
                                       (508) 957-5865
    
                                        908 Mammoth Road Dracut, Ma.
    

    What do you all think would be a reasonable price for a running
    10-year-old 55hp merc outboard? I've found what looks like an excellent
    deal, but I have to persuade an exec. comm. member who remains
    skeptical. Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    John, I have had bad experiences with a 'certain' brand of outboard.
    What is the 55 hp Merc worth?  A few questions:
    
    1. Is it a salt for fresh water engine?
    
    2. How much corrosion on the lower unit and under the 'hood'?
    
    3. Any evidence of water in the lower unit oil?  (the oil will appear
    milky if there is water in it)
    
    4. HOW DOES IT RUN!  TEST IT! On a boat. LISTEN to it running.  Any
    knocks or 'wierd' noises?
    
    5. Check the engine compression and see if it meets specs.
    
    6. How is the finish? The appearance of the finish is an indication
    of the care, or lack of care the engine got or didn't get. 
    
    Once those questions are answered one could give you an idea of what
    its worth.
    
    How much are they asking for it anyway?
    
    Jeff

    Jeff ---
    
    The engine runs great, and the cosmetics look good. The pitch on the
    prop is not optimal, but the boat scoots across the water at a good
    clip. This is a freshwater boat and outboard, and we will only use it
    in freshwater. (Still trying tork out the finances for a 32-foot Trojan
    for saltwater.)
    
    What would you pay for a used 55hp Merc that was in good shape? Does
    $650 sound like a good deal?
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    John,
    Are you buying the boat and motor seperately?  Since you've already
    tried it on the boat, it sounds like a package deal?
    
    If priced seperately, $650 for a good condition/nice running Merc
    55hp is reasonable.  You're not "stealing" it, but it's a very good
    deal.  To buy that motor new would probably be around $4K.
    
    What exactly is the deal on the boat/motor/trailer?
    
    Rick

    Rick ---
    
    We're paying $650 for boat, motor, AND trailor. The argument that seems
    to make the most sense for the doubter on the committee is that the
    motor alone is worth the price of the whole package. I'm just trying to
    see whether that argument stands up under reasonable scrutiny.
    
    Thanks.
    
    

    I think your ok John at that price too.
    
    Jeff

    Sounds like a great deal.  Almost too good.  Make sure you know the
    seller and get a title would be my only caution.
    Wayne

    Thanks for the concern. The seller is a DES supporter I've known for 15
    years who just happened to end up with two too many boats in his yard
    at year-end last year.

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 3.1584                Boat For Sale/Wanted Topic               1584 of 1584
MRKTNG::CUIPA                                        10 lines  18-MAY-1993 14:33
                                -< too much $ >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Based on my experience with the boat market,  the boats for sale in
    this conference are about 20-25% over priced.  I have seen comparable
    boats for sale, and many of them, for significantly lower prices than
    these, from dealers offering some sort of warrantee....
    
    What have others seen?
    
    
    

I agree wholeheartedly.  Which of course is why you see many of the 
same ads reposted, month after month.  Usually with little or no
decrease in asking price.

Anything is only worth what someone else will pay, period.  If you 
put a good effort into marketing your boat, and it still doesn't sell,
you're asking too much. It's simple.

Personally, my stuff is either not for sale, or if it is for sale,
I price it to sell.  My time is too valuable to spend six months 
advertising and showing a piece of equipment that I don't want.  I 
just sold my father's boat for a price that I feel comfortable with, 
and I think the buyer is happy.  I advertised it last week, and sold 
it in about 3 days to the first person who looked at it.  I probably 
could have gotten a few hundred more, but didn't want it to be a 6 
month process.

Unfortunately, a lot of people still think that anything that says
"marine" or "boat" on it makes it priceless.  All you need to do is
look in the Want Advertiser (published in Sudbury, MA) to see what 
I'm talking about.  Most of the prices on boats and accessories are
outrageous.  The old Chrysler air cooled 3.6hp outboard that was
advertised recently for $350 comes to mind.  It's worth about a $100,
and only to a buyer with more money than brains.  I wonder if the 
seller realizes you can buy a new Merc or OMC 3hp for under $600,
or a new leftover from Electra Marine in NY for about $400.

The same holds true for used boats.  It's made worse this year by
the fact that the supply of *good* used boats has suddenly dried up,
after a 2-year glut of used boats being available.  I still don't 
think the short supply of good used stuff justifies some of the 
prices that are being asked.

Rick

    Owens Marine sold my boat for $200 more than I originally posted in
    here ... -donmac

    re. 29
    Yeah, but Don, your boat was fairly reasonbly priced to begin
    with.  It's the ones that are too high, and stay for sale forever
    with little or no price reduction that I can't quite figure...
    
    Rick

    
RE: .28
    
>>I just sold my father's boat for a price that I feel comfortable with, 
>>and I think the buyer is happy.  I advertised it last week, and sold 
>>in about 3 days to the first person who looked at it.  I probably 
>>could have gotten a few hundred more, but didn't want it to be a 6 
>>month process.

    Happy?  Sure.  Heck, I would've given you $500 more.

    But you didn't ask ;-).

    Rick, I was going up Sunday to offer you $800 more but you couldn't
    wait!
    Wayne

    re: .31
    I knew I should have held out for more!  I'll tell ya what Dean,
    we'll split the difference, and you can send me a check for $250.
    
    8^)
    
    Rick
    
    P.S. Dean is the one who bought the boat...

    LOOKING AT A 1987 SEA-RAY PACHANGA...ANYONE HEARD OF POSSIBLE PROBLEMS
    WITH THIS BOAT ?REALLY HAS SOME FAST LINES AND THE APPEARENCE IS VERY 
    SLEEK,ITS REALLY GOT MY ATTENTION BUT WAS HESITANT TO BUY TILL I GOT
    MORE INFO.
    
                                                                   THANKS,
                                                                   ROGER