Conference 7.286::dcu

    
    First off, I'd like HONESTY in the DCU!!!
    The powers that be are becomeing to self important to CARE about
    US.
    
    I'd vote for less service, more $ for us.
    Some of their current moves such as ATMs next door to a branch while
    some plants areas suffer from no service stinks. Poor planning and
    disregard for members.
    
    Next the idea that ANYONE can go onto the board is misleading. 
    The board has to recomend you.  Or you can try like the other chap
    and run even if the board wont add your name to the list.  Then
    restrict his activities.
    We need representation of the users on the board.
    
    ed
    

    	I dont see where there needs to be a trade off between services
    and $$$.  A bank prices its services to cover cost and return some
    level of profit.  The credit union operates under the same criteria
    or at least should.  I would assume that the profit margin for a
    bank would be higher than for a credit union since stock holders
    should demand a higher return on investment than one would expect
    for a credit union.
    
    	The return on investment for a credit union, to my way of thinking
    is what we see as interest on our accounts. Since the level of interest
    we get paid is 5-7% on average, and probably less than the ROI for
    a stock holder of a commercial bank, a credit union should be able
    to price comparable services at a lower price.  If it cannot, then
    it must mean its costs are greater than the bank....why?  Does this
    imply that the credit union is less efficient in its delivery of
    services?
    
    	Along the same lines, the risk for loans at the credit union
    should be much less than at a bank (a left lung and ones first born
    just to be considered) translating into lower loss experience thus
    lower costs.  
    
        And to finish this off, the credit union is housed at Digital
    facilities with a captive audience which should be cheaper than
    the cost of floor space in a downtown Boston building....
    
     	This all says to me that a credit union should be able to operate
    at a lower cost than a bank....thus be able to offer services at
    a lower cost than a bank and thus we shouldnt have to trade off
    services and $$$ for services similar to those offered by a bank
    (within reasonable limits - an ATM in every home would stretch things).
    
    	I think that the DCU needs to study its operations to see if
    maybe its cost of business is out of line with that of other banking
    and credit institutions.
    
    
    -bob-
    
    

    Count a vote for less services and for lower loan rates and better
    interst on savings.  I find that all the services I need are free
    at my local bank anyway...so I'd like to earn interest.
    
    Now, please don't read this as my being against making the DCU's
    services more reasonable.  I don't think we should have to pay extra
    to choose loan payment amounts or get timely statements.  Those
    are functions that should be there at a minimal baselevel.

I'm for bare-bone functionality, maximum profit.  Period.

I don't need ATMs.  For those facilities without branch offices or overloaded
offices, give them ATMs.  Make them pay completely for them($1 a pop) to keep
the profit levels constant.

As far as credit cards and mortgages, if DCU can make a profit then I say go
ahead and do it.  If it alters the status quo, I say NO.

I know of people that can't keep a $1000 minimum balance in checking and they'll
be upset.  If the DCU wants to provide more services then they shouldn't start
by changing the rules.

rep

One point should be made to be fair to DCU.

Because it is (in my view, correctly) believed that DCU should provide
branches in most DEC facilities, even rather small ones, they do have
higher overhead than a normal credit union to pay all those people to
operate all those branches.  I know of some non-company credit unions
that work out of 1 office, obviously their costs would be lower. 

However, perhaps we should separate these reasonable extra costs from
the possibly non-necessary ones like hiring a mortgage processing
staff and a credit card department. 

    Please add another vote for $$$ over services.
    
    At the risk of restarting the (New England v.s. Non-New England
    range war again ;-)), I note that many of these enhanced services
    are not available to us on the West Coast - I'd rather not pay for
    them.
    
    M

	Add another vote for $$$ for services.

	I feel that people who use just the baseline of services
	should not have to pay for the fancier services that others want.
	I don't use a DCU ATM or a branch office, why should I have to
	pay, in the form of higher minimum balance and lower interest paid
	to me, for the use of a service I can't use.

	-Kevin

	

     I vote for higher dividends and lower loan interest rates.
     
     I am  a  Charter  member  of DCU and used it for most of my savings,
     however with the  5.x% savings/NOW account rate, I have moved almost
     all the money to other, more competitive credit unions.
     
     See Notes 5.6 and  5.8 for the kind of rates that I expect from DCU.
     I am still getting 6.5% interest on statement savings at Brockton CU
     (with  XPRESS24  card and NO transaction fees-I got cash at  Florida
     bank  ATM with it, no pain, no cost!) and 6.75% at  Crescent  Credit
     Union  (Brockton,  MA)  with a passbook savings account.  I even get
     ~5.9% on  a money market statement account at Bank of New England, a
     commercial  bank!!    BTW:   These CU's are unrestricted, Anyone can
     join them (no special affiliations are required).
     
     Maybe DCU spent too  much $$ in building PKO5 and/or trying to build
     up too fast, but other  CU's  are  able  to be MUCH more competitive
     than DCU is today.  It  appears  to me that DCU is being mis-managed
     and has their priorities in  the wrong place!  When commercial banks
     can offer Higher  interest  on  a  simple  account (BNE, $1K minimum
     balance)  than  DCU offers  on  ANY  demand  account,  something  is
     drastically wrong.
     
     Personally, I think that DCU  should  Stay away from the credit card
     business!  Who is going to  pay  for  the  losses  (stolen,  misused
     cards,  etc.)???    DCU members of course!    [A  few  years  ago  I
     questioned a charge on my acct, after pressing  the  lady  at  Bk of
     America I learned that they got burnt for $4MILLION  from  this scam
     whereby  a fly-by-nite company got my card number from a  legitimate
     transaction,  hit  the  cardholders and then folded up the operation
     and blew town.]
     
     Give me back the "old" DCU, who really gave the members a good deal!
     They may not  have  given  us  "one stop banking", but what they did
     provide was top notch.

Lower loan rates, etc  by all means!!  Fancy services?  You can
keep them.  I'm also wondering when DCU is going to start renting
VCR tapes as another 'service' :-).

-Joe

>     Give me back the "old" DCU, who really gave the members a good deal!
>     They may not  have  given  us  "one stop banking", but what they did
>     provide was top notch.


I'm with you Len, and your comment about misplaced priorities may have
hit the nail on the head.  When I talked with John Tulley (tilley?) ,
he specifically made the point that DCU was in heavy competition with
outside 'one-stop' institutions, and that the way DCU could best
compete was by expanding services (branches, ATMs, loans, credit
cards). Interest rates, both for loans and savings, merely had to
"stay competitive".  I don't know who's running DCU these days - but I
hope they're listening to this note! 

BTW:  what's a charter member?

Count me in for lower loan rates/fewer "services" too.  I also have been 
with the DCU since it started and have become more and more disenchanted 
with it to the point where now I only keep lunch money in there. 

> One argument in favor of their 'shrinking down':  In terms of
> mortgages, at least, I have never seen DCU offer a <better> deal than
> could be gotten elsewhere.  Perhaps they are too small to do more than
> match the going rate in these peripheral services.  

I've never even seen them match.  Not on mortgages.  Not on car loans. 
Not on personal loans.

A credit union is not a bank.  There are different kinds of banks 
authorized by the government each with a different focus of activity, 
but credit unions were started to provide affordable consumer credit to 
their members.  They were supposed to be the "little guys" of the 
financial industry directed by the members and dedicated to giving each 
of the members the best deal possible, allowing for the fact that they 
had to make both savings and loan rates attractive.  

The DCU seems more intent on growth than on serving the members.  A case 
can be made for growth being good for the members, but we don't seem to 
be getting many benefits from it.  It has the earmarks of growth whose 
purpose is to make things better for those running the credit union (New
office buildings, more employees, more prestige with their peers in the
financial community) and not those providing the capital.  At least 
that's how it looks to me.
					>>>==>PStJTT

.9 > Lower loan rates, etc  by all means!!  Fancy services?  You can
.9 > keep them.  I'm also wondering when DCU is going to start renting
.9 > VCR tapes as another 'service' :-).
    
    For cryin' out loud, don't give them ideas!
    
    They'll take your tape rental payment, open an account for you,
    setup a loan account so they can transfer part of your payment
    into the loan account (with the remainder going into savings),
    and charge you for having a (largely) inactive account.

Re: .10,.11
    
    Right on!  Growth seems to be *the* goal.  Sigh.
    
M

    In an attempt to try to be everything to everybody, DCU is quickly
    turning into a bad deal for all its members.  I believe its entry
    into the mortgage and credit card markets is a bad move.  I don't
    believe an institution of this size should be involved with these.
    It would be better off focusing it's resources on specific services,
    such as checking and short term loans.  It CANNOT compete with large
    bank services and is foolish to try.
    
    What is even more disturbing is the way DCU is going about its
    business.  It *DOUBLES* the minimum balance in checking without notifying
    people.  Its policies and "system" dictate many accounts and then
    they start charging inactivity fees.  And they can't even offer
    a car loan at a competitive fixed interest rate!  Something is
    drastically wrong at DCU.
    
    This latest no notice doubling of minimum balances was the last
    straw for me.  I've decided to look around for other alternatives.
    I did not WANT to.  DCU has forced me to.  I currently see no advantage
    what so ever to belonging to DCU.

    I indeed will vote with my feet, and when DCU remembers what a credit
    union should be to its members, I'll come back.

        In reply to this note also see 44.8 and 52.9, has I feel the replies
        there fit here as well as there.




                                                Rich

    I agree...more $, fewer services, if that tradeoff is necessary.
    When some DCUer gets an idea for a new service, it should be evaluated
    with two criteria:
    
    	1.  Can we provide the service better than other financial
    		institutions?

    	2.  Will providing this service reduce the quality of our other
    		services (i.e. lower interest rates etc)
    
    Burns

I think i've gotten over their building PK05 (i have to wonder if DEC 
didn't have something to do with this - not wanting to rent out space 
when DEC was having a space crunch) _ But I think the problem is that 
its more fun, gratifying, etc., to operate a financial institution 
that's growing, rich with services, etc., rather than just sticking to 
the basics.  I wouldn't be surprised if some DCU employees next raises 
are based on how well they get new services up and running.  (Sounds 
like GM (or DEC?) in the 60's huh? ;-)

Perhaps instead, the employees could be motivated by the 80's style 
cost-consciousness, and slimming down.  Let rewards be based on how
high they can force savings interest, how low they can force loan
interest. Reward their own people for investing, not for creating
services.   

just a thought

    Add yet another vote for $$ over services.  Since I can get services
    from other institutions (but not good deals), I would like to get
    the highest interest for my money and lowest interest on loans from
    DCU.

    More $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!
    Less services!
    

    Another vote for higher interest on savings/checking accounts.
    
    Personally, I don't care what the loan rates are.  I have usually
    been able to find better deals elsewhere.  Lately, I'm very
    disappointed with DCU's interest rate on the checking account and,
    in spite of DCU's convenience, I may go elsewhere.  (And I used
    to be a very happy DCU customer).

I find these "perceptions" about DCU customers very interesting.  How is
it that DCU perceived us as being more interested in services than rates?
If they asked most customers if they'd like thing X, then most people will
indeed say "Sure, why not?"  But you can't do that...you have to ask the
question a little differently (just like this note):

	"If you got X, would you be willing to give up Y?"

It's like asking DEC customers about new features...offer them a new widget
and they'll be all for it.  But present the tradeoffs to them, and they're
more likely to give you a useful answer.

If DCU intends to offer the same services as local banks, but with worse 
rates, then what will they have to attract us with, other than convenience?
High loan interest rates, and low savings interest rates don't attract 
customers...that seems pretty simple to me.  

.jim

    Re .16
    
    I was speaking with one of the tellers at the branch I deal with,
    and I was told that they do not get raises if the DCU does not make
    a profit of a certain amount each year.  When they do not have any
    direct control of this profit, then this does not seem fair.
    
    As for the topic in general, I definitely feel that we should not
    have to compromise, but if I had to choose between a completely
    unnecessary and frivolous (if not irresponsible) decision to add
    a credit card, and a GOOD low FIXED rate car loan, then I would
    take the FIXED rate car loan every day of the week.  Mr. Tilley
    and the B.O.D. are completely out of touch with the membership if
    they honestly believe that we would rather have our loans variable
    in rate and very high at that, just so that we may a stupid credit
    card.  Aren't we being bombarded with enough credit card applications
    now, without getting another one from a group we never asked to
    give us one.
    

I also am upset by DCU's making it harder for me to earn a good interest
rate on my savings and working cash.  I would vote to abolish a lot of
services, and certainly not add any more, if it meant higher rates.

My personal desires for DCU services...

Essential (I wouldn't use DCU without these):

    o  interest-bearing checking account
    o  access to branch office
    o  savings account with higher interest (RSVP-like)
    o  direct deposit
    o  no monthly fees

Desireable (I have used these, but would give them up if it meant better rates):

    o  free ATM usage
    o  credit line for overdrafts
    o  car/computer/etc. loans (not home mortgages of any kind)
    o  phone access to account balances

That's it.  Anything else DCU offers can be dumped, as far as I am concerned.
And nothing more needs to be added!!!!

Note that the "essentials" are gradually being eroded (i.e., $1K balance needed
for interest on checking) and it won't be long before I give up on DCU.
           --tom

    My vote: best intrest rates, basic services.
    
    A couple of thoughts:
      If DCU used their own private ATM's, couldn't they have one in
    every facility with more than 100 people, closing their smaller
    offices, and using less employees?
      Whats wrong with offering some mortgages? The up front fees should
    pay for the cost of sevice (but no more), the rate should be low
    but variable (to reduce risk to depositors intrest rate in an
    unsettled economy).
      I like the phone access. It's the type of service that doesn't
    result in a big payroll.
      I use DCU because of the convenience, I'd rater use it because
    of great rates.
    JB

        DCU might as well give me the best rates possible; since I joined
        their services have been unavailable to me out here in the field.
        My initial satisfaction with DCU has when I joined several years
        ago has rapidly decayed over the past year, as most of the
        advantages that DCU had over local banks have faded, and only the
        poor service remains. 

    
    I could hardly wait to join DCU when I hired on with Digital last
    May.  I thought, "with a huge corporation like DEC the rates should
    be fantastic."
    
    Last week I called for the interest rate on a 3 yr used car loan
    - 13%.  Then I called my husband's credit union, the Denver Postal
    Credit Union - 9% for 3 yrs with no down payment.  The newletter
    came out 2 days later - a new car for 3 years at 7.5%.
    
    Sigh...  Sherry

        re .25 and
        
>    - 13%.  Then I called my husband's credit union, the Denver Postal
>    Credit Union - 9% for 3 yrs with no down payment.  The newletter
>    came out 2 days later - a new car for 3 years at 7.5%.

        Which credit union's "newsletter" are you talking about?
        

As much as I hate to suggest it, maybe we need a survey of the membership 
to determine DCU's direction.  (Oh no!!! NOT ANOTHER SURVEY!!)

I think DCU's kidding itself if it thinks it can compete on service - I 
can get a one-hour car loan at my local bank and they make me feel like 
they WANT to give it to me.  The one time I approached DCU for a loan, 
you could feel the distrust oozing out of the phone.

My desires are simple...  give me a terrific rate on federally insured 
accounts and I'll give you every free nickel.  Everything else I can get 
better locally.  As the big banks fall over each other buying up 
everything in sight and competing for business, I just can't see how DCU 
can hold out if they try to do everything.

I've been with DCU forever (remember Worker's Credit Union??), but I 
think I'll give them 6 months and move on if they can't establish and 
communicate a clear direction and philosophy.

Thanks for listening.

    In response to 53.27 I offer the following idea that I have been
    dwelling on for the last week or so.  Why don't we, the membership,
    start a petition drive, telephone calling, or whatever to "force",
    cause a stockholders meeting to address these issues that have surfaced
    in this notes file.
    
    It is apparent that at least those who have entered noted in this
    file are quite concerned about a number of issues (both those who
    live in the EMASS area as well as those who are in the FIELD) and
    while there has been some attempt to address them thru John Tilley
    it seems that the feeling is that there is a lack of creditability
    with most of the responses.  I think it would be fair to point out
    that those who are entering comments into this file are probably
    a very small minority of the entire credit union membership but
    that should not deter them/us from attempting to get a face to face
    meeting with the management of DCU.
    
    To the best of my recollection there has never been a stockholders
    meeting and maybe now is the time to hold one.  Sort of on the idea
    of the DEC stockholders meeting.  Just an idea that I thought might
    be of interest.  
    
    Any comments??
    
    

    
    RE: .26 & .25
    
    The newsletter I am referring to is the Denver Postal Credit Union
    Newsletter.  They post current rates every month.  And while I'm
    plugging them, I will mention that they offer a Master Card with
    great rates.  At 12% you pay a daily rate and at 13.5(I think) you
    have a month grace period.
    
    They are now opening membership to relatives.
    
    	sherry

        re .28 and
        
>    while there has been some attempt to address them thru John Tilley
>    it seems that the feeling is that there is a lack of creditability
>    with most of the responses.  I think it would be fair to point out
        
        I disagree with your use of "most" ("most of the responses").
        I'd day it's more like "a few" or possibly "some".
        

I very much appreciate the policy of official DCU responses to some of
these notes.  However, I'd like to see one for *this* note, since I 
consider this to be the most fundamentally important issue currently
under discussion.

.jim

    I respectfully differ in views with you Mr. Stratton, .30.
    I *used* to talk over my concerns with Mr Tilley. But when nothing
    *ever* comes from conversations [my term brick walls] one gives
    up.  I guess you could be correct now, as I would waste my time
    calling up Mr. Tilley with my thoughts.
    ed
    

I *think* what Mr. Stratton was saying was that Mr. Tilley's 
responses, < as posted in this file > had some substance.  This is
indeed true in one or two instances, but I must admit I'm disappointed
that Mr. Tilley is addressing this file only with short, general
responses, instead of specifically addressing the details that are
discussed. 

        Thanks, Jeff - although I wasn't exactly thinking that,
        I agree.
        
        Remember, re John Tilley's responses in this conference,
        he doesn't have any "formal" access to this conference.
        A few of us talk to him on the phone, and post notes
        afterwards, for example.
        
        My nit a few notes back was about various notes in this
        conference that talk about John Tilley (and his department).
        I disagreed with the thought that "most" of the replies
        on that were in the negative, and suggested that it should
        be "few" or "some".  (I'm counting my positive replies
        as 1, Ed Badger's negative replies as 1, and so on - I'm
        not counting my [guess] 10 replies as "10".)
        
        Ed - I'm sorry you haven't had any success with John Tilley.
        I wish I had a suggestion to help, but I don't.
        

    I again repeat my suggestion of 53.28 that a meeting of the
    stockholders be held so that many of the concerns and issues that
    have been raised in this conference can be addressed in the open
    for all who care to come to hear.
    
    It should be noted that what the noters in this conference feel
    to be problems MAY not be thought of as problems by the majority
    of the membership.  On the other hand we may have just touched the
    tip of the iceberg on complaints.  However until we are able to
    have a public forum on the matter all that we are going to do is
    just pound on the door and few if any will listen to us.
    
    
    By the way, when was the last time anyone had a member of the BOD
    call you and ask what you thought of the DCU.  Maybe if more of
    that type of call were made different approaches might be tried.
    
    
    Again is there any interest in trying for a stockholder/shareholder
    type of meeting???????
    

    I've switched my checking back to my other credit union (interest
    on low balances, posted monthly);when I use up my DCU checks I'll
    close the checking account.
    
    A shareholder's meeting might help, but shrinking deposits will
    send a stronger message. Let's take our business elsewhere.

>    I've switched my checking back to my other credit union (interest
>    on low balances, posted monthly);when I use up my DCU checks I'll
>    close the checking account.
    
want to give us a recommandation - whom do you use?

    In answer to 53.36 you are the first reader of this notes file to
    even acknowledge my idea of a stockholders meeting.  Personally
    I think it would be a good idea but the lack of response or even
    negative comment leads me to think I am alone with the idea.
    
    At least it would have been a way to get a broader based input from
    those who don't even know about this notes file.  At least the idea
    was put forth.
    

    After meeting with the President of the DCU, I was informed that
    there is an annual meeting each year.  I was told that they get
    very little participation at it.  I informed the Prez that I was
    not even aware that such a meeting was held.  The basic result of
    our meeting was that the DCU will work on improving their communication
    with the members.
    
    Ed..
    

>    After meeting with the President of the DCU, I was informed that
>    there is an annual meeting each year.  

Sounds like the "in a locked filing cabinet, stuck in the unused lavoratory 
with a "Beware of the Leopard" sign on the door' notifcation message from
Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy  :-)

Did he happen to mention when said meetings are held?  The only thing I have
every gotten was the 'vote of new board members' voting card.  No mention of
any such meetings.  When is the next one?  Who HAS been going all these years?
What was the agenda for the last annual meeting (eg, what was getting talked
about?)

-Joe

re: < Note 53.37 by ZEN::WINSTON "Jeff Winston (Hudson, MA)" >
    
want to give us a recommandation - whom do you use?
--------    
    		Corning Glass Credit Union
    
    This info is of limited value; this credit union, like the DCU, is not
    open to the general public.
    
    Having just celebrated its 50th anniversary, the CGWCU is a truly
    friendly, courteous, and well-run organization. I now deal with
    them mostly via toll-free phone calls, and they project the same
    eagerness to please the _customer_ as they do face-to-face.  Perhaps
    DCU's problem is primarily one of inexperience...

  I, too, would prefer interest over services.  I expected to open a
  DCU checking account my first day -- it never occurred to me that
  their deal would be worse than my current bank's.  In general, services
  are only useful if they don't impact the rest of the offerings in such 
  a way as to make the whole unpalatable.