Conference 7.286::dcu

    
    I saw this technology when I attended a credit union event in Boston a
    few years back.  I was similarly impressed.  I can't remember if the 
    back side of the checks were also imaged.  Are yours?
    
    As for 3 hole paper, it is non-standard paper and would add
    costs to the current process.  I just file them in a folder so 3 hole
    punch would be a waste, at least in my case.  I'm not sure there are a
    lot of people out there that put statements in binders.
    

    re: last two
    
    I think this technology is neat, but not particularly useful.  Isn't it
    cheaper to just send the cancelled checks back?  Then you get the front
    and the back, you don't have to worry about the image not coming out
    well with light-inked rubber stamp marks on the back of checks, and you
    have the ultimate proof of payment if you need it.  I think they're
    easier to store too -- I can put them back in order in a stack in the
    box the checks originally came in.  I can also select a few checks to
    put in a different stack or folder, like perhaps home cost-basis
    expenses.  I don't think this imaging thing is at all useful until I
    can download the images to my PC from the bank and store them there. 
    Even then, it's not as good as the real check for proof of payment.
    
    	Steve

RE:                    <<< Note 740.1 by ASE003::GRANSEWICZ >>>

>    As for 3 hole paper, it is non-standard paper and would add

	Sure it's standard paper.  We use it in printers here all the time.    

    
    Because we use it in printers does not mean it is standard issue for
    the company that sends out our statements.  It would essentially be a
    special form.  The statement printing would have to insure that the
    areas where the holes are punched are not used for information.
    
    I just don't see this as a valid option as the default.  If there are
    some members that want 3 hole punch, then a paper punch is a simple
    solution.  Then there will be some who want the holes on the right
    side, then somebody will want them along the top and landscape
    printing.  This might be a good place to apply the KISS principle.
    

Let me dial in and download my statement, and then I can print it any way I
want.  DCU can save postage & printing costs; let me download the imaged
checks too (hopefully in some compressed format).

--Scott

    The request for 3 hole punched statements makes a pretty good
    commentary on the demands being put on DCU.  Everyone wants everything
    from the institution and can't understand why they can't get it.

>    The request for 3 hole punched statements makes a pretty good
>    commentary on the demands being put on DCU.  Everyone wants everything
>    from the institution and can't understand why they can't get it.

WRONG!!!!!

I didn't say that I WANTED it ... I just thought it might be useful ... there
are people here who are proving me wrong, so I'll happily carry on using my
3-hole punch.  If the paper is non-standard and costs more, then that is
something I can understand!!!!!!!  I am not a complete idiot!!!!

I don't want everything ... I tossed out a couple of ideas here for discussion.
I haven'r demanded them from the CU at all!!!

Sheesh, why did you read more into this than was there ?  Is it your mission
in life to be contrary ????

Imaging ...

As to the matter of having cheques returned ... DCU sure isn't returning MY
cheques, and this is a cheap low cost option that I personally think is far
more convenient for storage than all those cheques and/ or cheque duplicates
flying around.

Mine only show the front sides.  I've only once in 12 years had anyone ask
to see a cancelled cheque as proof of payment.  

If youlike keeping shoeboxes full of cheques, then fine ... I think the
imaging is neat and useful, and serves my PERSONAL needs for seeing cancelled
cheques fine, and far better than loose cheques.

Stuart

American Express uses this technology for at least some of their card products
(I have a Gold Card and a Gold Optima) and I find it really convenient.  For
electronically submitted charges, I see a "charge slip" of the activity.  For
paper charge slips, I see a miniaturized facsimile of the charge.

I really like this and wondered why more financial institutions don't do
this...

BobW

    
    RE: imaging
    
    The fact that it only imaged the front of the check was the drawback
    that I remembered.  The signatures, stamps and dates on the back side
    are equally important in many cases.  So for verification of payment or
    legal disputes, they may be inadequate and DCU would have to maintain
    copies anyways.  They would be adequate replacement only for the copies
    that some people use.  So while the technology looks promising, it
    might not be completely there yet in some respects.
    
    
    RE: Keith
    
    Stuart, don't get upset!  You're making his day!!   8-)
    
    So Keith, just what is this magical "maximum interest rate" you have
    established we will all receive once all us deadbeats and abusers start
    paying for the deposit slips we use?  How much more than we currently
    recieve?  When will we get it?  Immediately, or when the capital ratio
    hits 50%?  And will we ALL get it or just a few, "relationship"
    members?  Keith, so many questions, so few answers.  Please help us
    out here.
    

    Actually, if info on the back of the cheque is so important then,
    imaging front and back will NEVER satisfy some people, even if the
    cheque number is also printed on the back by the original cheque
    printer, because there is NO WAY to guarantee the back of any given
    imaged cheque belongs to the front, unless people like the IRS give
    its blessing.
    
    For me, the primary convenience is at home.  I like keeping my
    statements in a binder.  Not having to rely on the cheque duplicates
    is a real bonus.
    
    As a cost saving thought, is there any reason that statements have to
    be printed on quite such heavy paper ?
    
    Stuart
    
    

    
>    I thought you were elected to tell us this.
    
    	Keith, now I know you're pulling my leg.  Where and when have I
    	ever mention "maximum interest rate"?  Nice attempt to dodge the
    	question though... 8-)
    

    Sorry, I thought the Board of Directors was elected to help establish
    fiscal policies with regards to running the credit union and meeting
    the needs of the membership.  I didn't realize this was all up to me.
    
    I hope I got this response in quick enough so Phil didn't have to
    repeat his question in other topics.  I would have answered earlier but
    I didn't see his question until now.  You know how work gets in the
    way.

    Now, now Keith, please don't get testy...  It was YOU who first held
    out the possibility of "maximum interest rate" if DCU were to impose
    all encompassing fees on all users of all services.  All I'm asking you
    to do is fill in the rest of your strategic plan and see how it will
    all play out.  Please don't expect ME to fill it in.
    
    I know exactly what DCU's spread is and what it needs to be in order to
    even break even (at today's levels).  All I can say is if you expect to
    receive 7-9% on savings, then the amount of fees to be collected in
    your plan would be MASSIVE and devastating IMO.
    

    Phil, please go back and reread my original comment and the replies
    leading up to it.  This time, read what I said and not what you think I
    was trying to say.

    
    RE: .16
    
    I don't have the time or desire to reconstruct our discussion.  Please
    spare me any further suspense and tell me what you really said or the point
    you were trying to make.  Yawn...
    

    Thank you for your open and honest communication and your
    non-confrontational manner.  Since I am under attack here I suppose it
    is up to me to dig up the facts.

    
    Oh, I see.  I ask for details and clarification from you and its
    "attack".  Come on Keith, you're kidding nobody with these word games.
    You just don't like it when people ask you about your statements in the
    same way you ask others.  Let's just stick to a discuss of the topic at
    hand.  I just wanted to know what great interest rates were going to
    result from fees.  You see, that is frequently mentioned, but I see no
    evidence of them, nor any commitment to them.  DCU members deserve more
    than vague hopes of better rates in the future, maybe, if they pay
    enough fees and we get rid of the "abusers".  A commitment to return
    earnings to the membership is needed from Directors on the Board. 
    Right now I know of only 3 candidates who have publicly stated that
    commitment.
    

RE: Note 740.20 by 38346::MACNEAL

>    I'm not trying to kid anybody.  I just don't appreciate being taken out
>    of context and then have to defend myself because of it.

Keith,
	You just said a mouthful...

You have just said, what everyone has been saying to you and your one liners!!! :-)
    
Love that last sentance!

	- mark

It would be nice if the DCU  returned cancelled checks or
provided a reduced image of the cancelled check.

The lack of the above is preventing many members from making
the DCU the primary bank.

There are two approaches:
	- try to convince customers that they don't need cancelled
	  checks or
	- meet the customers needs.


Gim

    Why do I want canceled checks or images? If I have a problem, and
    I've had two in the last 12 years, a copy can be made available.
    If I don't have a problem why do I want DCU to go to the expense of 
    processing and mailing all those canceled checks?

    This is a serious question. 

    			Alfred

    Put your flame vest on, Alfred.  Make sure it's a good one.  Mine is
    still a bit singed from asking that very same question.

Of course, the DEFCU needs to process the checks even if they don't send the
originals back to us! I like the idea of them not sending the checks back to us
'cause I imagine it saves money.

-Glenn-

Some points:

1. a carbon copy is not valid proof of payment, a cancelled check
   is.

2. I maintain key copies of cancelled checks permanently:  eg.
   payments for home improvements, etc  - so when I sell my
   house in 30 years, I have documented evidence of the home 
   improvement.

3. when tax time comes, I take my cancelled checks, go thru
   them and keep the ones required for the IRS. 

Those who don't require cancelled checks have accounts with the
DCU. Those who do want cancelled checks don't have an account
with the DCU or else don't make the DCU their primary account.

Baybank and Shawmut returns checks. Why can't the DCU? Perhaps
the DCU should a market survey of those who don't have their
primary account with the DCU and try to understand why.  I understand
from talking with a BOD member that the marketshare of the DCU
is not as high as it could be.  Canceled checks might be one reason.
                                                           

Gim

I have been a member of several credit unions since 1975 and as such have had 
truncated checks since then.  In fact the General Manager of the credit union 
where I worked, was the inventor of the first truncated draft called 
Surechek.  I have never missed getting checks back and know from having 
worked at a credit union it is a substantial cost.

Now I use Quicken and Checkfree and hardly write any checks.  If I want to 
know what is tax related, I get a Quicken report.  For Home Improvements I 
keep the store receipt, it says a lot more about what the expense was than a 
check for $xxx.yy to 'your local home center'.

At a time when so many are talking about fees, the last thing DCU needs to do 
is increase draft processing costs.

 

    Re:. 28,  
    
    Some contractors give short handwritten receipts. That together with a
    cancelled check is abosolute proof of payment.
    
    Also - when you pay property taxes and other taxes by mail, you don't
    get a receipt. The cancelled check is your receipt.
    
    Anyone who's been through a TCP audit will understand.  TCP is an IRS
    Taxpayer Compliance Audit. The IRS goes through and ask for documented
    proof of each line. To prove you're married, you need to produce a
    marriage certificate.  To prove you have kids, you need to show their
    birth certificates.
    
    Re: .29.
    
    You prove my point. Those to don't need cancelled checks do business
    with credit unions. The who do want cancelled checks do busines
    elsewhere.
    
    Gim
    

    .last few:
    
    I thought that there was some "banking regulation" that forbade them to
    return cancelled "checks" -- because technically, they *aren't* checks.
    They are the functional equivalence of checks in many ways, but this
    was one of the differences.
    
    Or maybe this is just the result of one wine-tasting too many?
    
    Dick

    
    >from the town clerk to prove you paid the bill.
    
    Hard to get. Not. I have to stop by her office and chit chat while I wait
    for the computer to print one out. 
    
    		Alfred

Hmmm.... interesting phenomenon 

Here we have a DCU customer requesting a service (receiving cancelled checks)
and lots of folks in here offering suggestions as to how this customer
could change his behavior.  

    
    Re: .35
    
    > Here we have a DCU customer requesting a service (receiving cancelled
    > checks) and lots of folks in here offering suggestions as to how this
    > customer could change his behavior.  
    
    You're right, but I think some of this discussion was more about what
    is an acceptable proof of payment rather than to make the customer
    wrong.  One line of reasoning that has always irritated me is where the
    solution to the problem rests simply with the customer changing his/her
    need.
    
    STeve
    

>    wrong.  One line of reasoning that has always irritated me is where the
>    solution to the problem rests simply with the customer changing his/her
>    need.


Gee ... an we wonder about Digital's problems :-)

Stuart ... I know this doesn't belong here but I couldn't help myself, I
  have seen this happen so often as both a customer and an employee!

    
    Re: .37
    
    > Gee ... an we wonder about Digital's problems :-)
    >
    > I know this doesn't belong here but I couldn't help myself, have
    > seen this happen so often as both a customer and an employee!
    
    Stuart, There's no need to apologize.  I am sure that it is no
    coincidence that you've notice the same attitude in Digital.
    
    In fact one of my underlying reasons for participating in all this
    is to get more members who are upset about this to start relating
    it to how/why Digital might be in the mess it's in.
    
    Steve
       

Re: .35

> Hmmm.... interesting phenomenon 
> 
> Here we have a DCU customer requesting a service (receiving cancelled checks)
> and lots of folks in here offering suggestions as to how this customer
> could change his behavior.  

Thank you very much. Your words precisely describes how I feel. For the
record, I have a DCU account but the bulk of my banking business goes
to Baybank. Baybank returns checks - they don't ask me why I want them.
They also have thousands of ATM machines.


Gim

Well, what's the point in having your checks returned? Do you need them for
proof *that* often? You can always get the cancelled check from DEFCU (although
I don't think they should charge us a fee for this). I personnally feel that
DEFCU shouldn't send us the checks back so that we don't spend money mailing
them back.

-Glenn-

Well, if different customers want different services, perhaps DCU
should offer different types of checking accounts?  You know,
like other banks [ :-) ] do.  You could have an account which
returns checks (with fees or minimum balances), or one with no
fees but no returned checks, etc.  That way the customer can
choose the option best suited to her needs and DCU keeps all the 
customers happy.

Before anyone starts nitpicking, no, I'm not advocating that 
every customer should be able to define their own terms.  I do 
think there are some common choices, though.  Getting checks back 
is one of them.  DCU could be more customer oriented here and 
accept that the customer knows what they want without trying to 
change the customer's behavior to match what DCU wants to offer. 

    RE: .41
    
    I like it!
    
    -Glenn-0

Some notes:

Re: .6

>     The request for 3 hole punched statements makes a pretty good
>     commentary on the demands being put on DCU.  Everyone wants everything
>     from the institution and can't understand why they can't get it.

The largest mutual fund company in America, Fidelity, provides its
statement on a 3 hole paper. They also ensure that no information is
printed near the wholes. To Fidelity, providing paper with no holes,
is non-standard.

Re: imaging

Vanguard, the second largest mutual fund company (?), just announced
that all its checks will be imaged with both front and back. They
indicated imaged checks are acceptable proof of payment to "business,
tax bureaus," and gov't agencies.  It is also interesting that Vanguard
is not charging for the service because it reduces their cost. It's 
also amazing how they didn't try to "market" it by charging more.

It is clear how to win business: provide what the customers. Arguing
whether the customer really needs to get back cancelled checks, etc
won't win customers. Given the plethora of choices, it's easier to
switch than fight.

Gim

    
    Re: .43
    
    > It is clear how to win business: provide what the customers. Arguing
    > whether the customer really needs to get back cancelled checks, etc
    > won't win customers. Given the plethora of choices, it's easier to
    > switch than fight.

    Arguing with customers about what they need is disrespectful and
    arrogant.  I will not do business with someone who professes to
    know better than me what I need.  In cases where it is clear that
    the customer really doesn't know and/or is confused, then the 
    sensible approach is to plant your observation about the need so
    that the customer thinks they thought of it.  A little diplomacy
    and sense goes a long way.  I once left an auto salesman standing
    in mid-sentence when he arrogantly told me he wouldn't sell me
    a car without power steering because he knew that I needed it.
    That same day a salesman at another dealership happily sold me
    a brand new Ford Fairmont without power steering.
    
    Steve
    

    RE:.40

 >                 You can always get the cancelled check from DEFCU (although
 > I don't think they should charge us a fee for this).

    	This must be only for the more well to do relationship members. 
    The few times I tried all I could get was a copy of my canceled check.

    Joe

Re .45

They micro-fiche the checks (and I assume they then destroy them).  What you
get is a copy of the micro-fiche'd check; which i've always found to be
acceptable proof (certainly the bond company I was dealing with didn't have
any problems with 'em).

I never had a problem with the fee they charged for copies of cancelled checks,
even the time I had to get 50 different checks - given the amount of effort
DCU had to go through to pull the copies, I thought the fee was reasonable.

I'd much rather DCU not send me the checks - I rarely need them, and would
probably just lose them.  Having an option for members to get them returned
if they wanted might be nice though.

--Scott

    Since DCU microfiches them, and sends out copies, then imaging is
    absoultely perfect, except for they that want the real cancelled
    cheques.  No fees to find them ... sheesh, why would anyone gripe
    at that!
    
    Stuart
    
    

>    	This must be only for the more well to do relationship members. 
>    The few times I tried all I could get was a copy of my canceled check.

Right. That's what I meant. It's just as good as the original document.

-Glenn-

Wouldn't it be nice if there were some little check box
on the check itself to indicate whether or not you wanted
the check returned or not?  That way only the checks that
you really need get returned (along with the monthly stmt
they have to mail you anyway).  Plus, there's less extra
processing involved in hunting down (or getting a copy of)
a cancelled check which you'd end up needing anyway.  I
suspect there'd be some problem getting new checks printed
with this extra feature, so this might be a silly idea.  But,
I figured I'd throw it out anyway & see what people think.

- Tom

    Gim, how much do you pay BayBank for the service of returning your
    cancelled checks to you?

Both BayBank and Shawmut do not charge for return of cancelled
checks.  They do pay interest that's about 1% lower. On a 
$1,000 balance, that's about $10. I'd gladly pay it.

BayBank tried to sell me on imaged checks rather than
returing the checks. But why should I
pay to reduce their costs?

Gim

    re: .49
    
    That sounds like a good idea.  The magic in check processing is due to
    the magnetic ink used on the checks.  The amount of each check is
    encoded in magnetic ink by a clerk in the bank.  It seems to me that if
    the check box were put near the amount box, the clerk could also
    indicate that the check is to be returned, without having to look
    somewhere else on the check.
    
    The downside is that the layout and contents of checks are tightly
    controlled, so it's not something that a individual institution could
    do to gain a competitive advantage over others.
    
    Bob

Does anyone know whether or not the MICR numbers preprinted on the
bottom of checks today are still printed in magnetic ink or whether
they now just use regular ink and rely on OCR to interpret the font?

It came to mind that if they actually use regular ink, there's
probably little reason why people can't just print their own checks
with a suitable inkjet (or other) printer on their PC and save
the cost of ordering single part checks altogether.

Still MICR.

	Steve

And some laser printers have magnetic toner cartridges available so you
can print checks with magnetic ink.

As mentioned in another note, the DCU will be offering a Check Image
Statement.  Each page contains a set of ten check images arranged in
five rows with two check images per row.  If you write 10 checks per
month, 12 pages will hold a complete year's record.

You can get this service by calling the info center.  I came across this
note I  posted 3 years ago. The DCU is providing this service not because
of my request  but because it meets the members needs.

Gim

> ============================================================================
> Note 740.22   Cheque (Check) Imaging - A 1990's Neat Idea!          22 of 55
> SLOAN::HOM                                       14 lines   4-FEB-1994 15:55
>                     -< cancelled checks or imaging >-
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It would be nice if the DCU  returned cancelled checks or
> provided a reduced image of the cancelled check.
> 
> The lack of the above is preventing many members from making
> the DCU the primary bank.
> 
> There are two approaches:
>         - try to convince customers that they don't need cancelled
>           checks or
>         - meet the customers needs.
> 
> 
> Gim
> 

The only downside to this service is that it's fronts of checks only.  I've
already got a record of that from my duplicate check receipts.  When I look
at a cancelled check, or send off a copy to a vendor in a dispute, they
look for the back to see the signature and deposit records.

j.

    Re .57
    
    Having not received a statement with these yet, I didn't know they
    were single sided.  I had assummed they came with all the information
    necessary for disputes.  When they put the checks n film, they do copy
    both sides.
    
    Gim, if this is true (front only) would it pe possible to have them
    print the other side of the check on the image and perhaps use both
    sides of the sheet (if you have more than 10 checks)?   If it turns out
    to be both sides, this is probably moot anyhow.
    
    Bill
    
  

I haven't gotten a statement yet, but when I called DCU to sign up, I was
told "You know that it's only the front of the check, don't you" by the
person who signed me up.

j.

    According to the flyer I got in this month's statement, it's fronts
    only.  Useless for proving a check was received and cashed.  Sigh.
    
    				Steve

    Yes, the one thing that made me hold onto my Indian Head->Fleet account
    is that I like getting my checks returned for purposes of proof.
    
    On the other hand, I must admit that after 17 years of checking, I have
    never needed to provide such proof but I know it happens now and then.
    
    Of course, I did appreciate sending a royalty check to a well known
    rock star and getting the check back with a genuine signature, or as I
    like to think of it: "autograph".
    
    ;-)

>>    Yes, the one thing that made me hold onto my Indian Head->Fleet account
>>    is that I like getting my checks returned for purposes of proof.

Like you, I liked getting them back.  The ONLY time I needed to have them 
was when I was applying for a morgage - I forget why they wanted to see some
canceled checks - but they did.  One of them was on our DCU account so I had 
to request it.  We currently have only a DCU account (since the take over of 
NFS by Baybanks) and I don't think I'll even sign up for the "show me the
front" option - I don't know what I'd do with the paper.

There have been one or two times that Market Basket checks have been off by 
10 cents or so, and it would have been nice to see the check then, but this
happens so infrequently that I'll save the trees and eat the dime - maybe I'll
use the dime to call my mother - no wait - I have ATT Long distance :-)

bjm

Re: 58 and others on images of front and back:

I asked the DCU about the imaging the back. Per DCU:

   "The Check Image Statements will be front only.  This is what we have
    seen as the industry standard.  In fact, those institutions moving
    away from returning the "real" checks are also only returning the
    fronts.  The cost for providing the service would increase
    dramatically by providing both front and back.  

    In regard to "proof" of payment: Recognizing this as a reasonable
    question, we have increased the number of FREE copies from 2 per
    month to 10 per month." 

About 2 year ago,  I took a tour of DCU headquarters. The cancelled checks 
are kept there and destroyed after a period of time.

If you go through this notes string, you will see that I am a big fan of
returned checks.  Like noter in .61, I have never had a need to
provide proof.

>     On the other hand, I must admit that after 17 years of checking, I have
>     never needed to provide such proof but I know it happens now and then.


RE. 62

> The ONLY time I needed to have them 
> was when I was applying for a morgage - I forget why they wanted to see some
> canceled checks - but they did. 

I personally provide information only if feel the request is valid only
the minimum information required.

Many financial institutions want as much information as possible on
you. I'm a big fan on privacy.


Gim

    I think this is a GREAT service -- I'm going to sign up right away.
    I've almost never had to prove to someone that I wrote a check, but
    I've often wished for a more organized and compact way of storing 
    and looking up the checks that my wife and I have written.  Sure, I
    keep the carbon copy books, but they never seem to be in order...
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

Interestingly enough, I've only on rare occasion had to provide proof
(3 times, I think, in the last 20 years).  Just before I found out about
this service, one of my service providers missed a payment.  They have 
put the burden of proof on me and have asked for all my check stubs since
I started with them in October, 1995.  It seems excessive to me and I've
escalated it, but normally I could just copy the fronts and backs from my
stub pile and be done with it.  Instead, I've got to fight this because
I don't have the stubs.  They seemed quite surprised that I had a bank
that didn't return stubs.  Matter of fact, they thought it was illegal.
I guess that's what happens when the billing department is also known as
Fran.

j.

Shall I recount my one-and-only proof-of-payment experience?

NYNEX Mobile (now BANM) had failed to credit my account for a payment; I had
the cancelled Shawmut (now Fleet) check showing that it had indeed been
deposited by NYNEX.

I called them up and told them they had made an error, and that they should
recheck their own records to correct it.

They wanted a copy of both sides of the check.

I told them I impose a $20 processing fee on requests for copies of the
check.  Initially, they didn't want to pay it, and I stuck to my guns of
telling them they then needed to recheck their own records to find the
payment.  Otherwise they would have to pay the $20 fee, since I would
have to use up my valuable personal time to drive to the town library
to use the copier, and to address and mail the copy.

They agreed to credit my account for my $20 fee.

Peculiarly, they split the $20 between the two cellular numbers on the
account, and whoever did the math shorted the amount by $0.01, but I
didn't waste any further time complaining.

/john