Conference 7.286::dcu

    
    
    RE -1: No this notes files is *NOT* sponsored by DCU. 
    
    This notesfile was established due to requests from unhappy DCU
    members (mainly in Tewksbury) who are having lots of problems with
    the credit union. This is only a forum to talk about these problems,
    and share information, and my personal feeling: if there are enough 
    members having problems, that maybe the noters could consolidate their 
    efforts to do something about it. But as I said, this is my personal
    opinion as a noter, and not as a moderator. (that means I am not
    involved in anything besides moderating this file..)
    
    I hope this offers some clarification.
    
    Nisreen
    

        Hi,
          I will  be moving to the US.  in a couple of months to take
        up residence, marrying a DEC employee, and continuing to work
        for DEC in the US.
        
        I have only a  superficial amount of knowledge about the DCU,
        and from what I've seen  in  other conferences, opinion seems
        to be divided  as to whether the service they provide is good
        or bad.
        
        I would welcome opinions as to what *you*  as DCU users would
        do, given that you were  new to the  'system',  and  had  the
        choice of any bank to begin with.
        
        I  will  be  looking  for a mortgage, and would like  a  dual
        signature (joint) checking  account,  along  with  a  savings
        account.
        
        Thanks,
        
        Andy

    
    The last two times I have changed the amount of my share draft,
    subsequent automatic deposits go into my primary account.  I complained
    the first time (I guess to no avail).  Is this a bug or I am just
    lucky?  I am going to go in Monday and ask to speak to a manager
    and see if I can get it fixed...
    
    John
    

There is no good reason *not* to have an account with the DCU, since membership
is free and checking is free.

That said, I would not want it to be my primary bank.  It's handy that DEC
lets you have your check deposited into a commercial bank with part of the
check going into DCU as well.

/john

        While I can appreciate the intent of this conference, if
        you have a problem or concern with the DCU, chances are
        this conference won't help.
        
        If you have a problem with the DCU, talk to someone at
        your local branch.  If that doesn't help, call either John
        Tilley or Donna Lane Nelson at DTN 223-6735 (between 9:00
        and 5:00 pm, Eastern time).
        
Jim Stratton (married to a DCU employee)
        

        Is this conference "for internal use only"?  The DCU is
        NOT "part" of Digital.  Its employees are NOT Digital
        employees.
        
        In other words, may I show notes here to my wife, who is
        a DCU and not a Digital employee?  Or may I (or someone)
        periodically EXTRACT notes from this conference and give
        them to DCU employees (probably John Tilley; see .2)?
        
Jim Stratton
        

There is a real good reason for not using the DCU for checking.

>Flame ON!

The DCU does not provide cancelled checks. If a company, lets say
American Express loses a check, the only way to convince them of
the transaction, even if they cashed the check, is to provide a 
photo copy of the cancelled check.

Good luck getting the cancelled check. If AE screws up and you need 
to get proof, you better have you books to get the check number and
then you get to hunt down the DCU to dig up the check.

>Flame OFF

I look forward to a seperate note in regards to this topic as this 
is not the place to argue this point but rather to list reasons 
PRO/CON for the DCU.

The information in this conference, just like any other conference on the
EASYNET, follows the standard "do the right thing" rules as everything at
DEC.

If a note in this conference does not contain proprietary information
about DEC's products or operations and does not shed DEC in a bad light,
it may be shown to anyone, DEC employee or not.

/john

P.S.:  DCU Trustees, by the way, are DEC employees and can read and write
in this conference, if they want.  It wouldn't be a bad idea -- it would
let us know who we're voting for.

        John - while I agree with your "do the right thing" rules,
        I'd like to hear the moderator make that statement.
        
        Re DCU's board of directors - I'll track down the names
        and post them here.  At least one of them has used Notes,
        that I'm aware of.
        
Jim Stratton
        

>        John - while I agree with your "do the right thing" rules,
>        I'd like to hear the moderator make that statement.

What someone does with the notes posted in this conference is really none
of the moderator's business -- whether something is/isn't "for internal use
only" is not decided by the moderator; it is determined by the content of
the note.  Likewise presence or absent of a "for internal use only" notice
on a note or other document isn't the determining factor.  Such notices are
only advisory.

/john

DCU accounts may serve several purposes; the trick, as
with any resource, is using it in the best way.

DCU wins hands down for convenience:  if you will be working
in a facility with an office, it's the easiest way to have
access to cash (of course, that may not be advisable for some
people :-).  

DCU also pays the highest interest for the lowest
minimum balance, at least in this state (MA). 

I continue to maintain another checking account at a
Savings Bank (stay away from Commercial Banks if you can)
so that I don't have to pay for using an ATM (which I do often,
and I don't *live* near any DCU ATMs).

My home mortgage is through DCU, for convenience and lower
interest.  The process was not very smooth, but I've heard horror
stories with just about all mortgage sources.
             
I've had "no checks returned" accounts before coming to DCU; I've never
needed a cancelled check (and that includes the "checks returned"
accounts, too).  Maybe I'm just lucky.

Bruce

I believe it is related to the information about changes in 
deductions being delayed between DEC Payroll and DCU.  The last time
I changed my split of DCU deductions (between primary, checking, xmas,
and vacation), DCU ended up with more of my money than they were 
expecting.  They just deposit the excess in the primary account and
don't tell a soul.  It can be very frustrating when you see the money
come out of your check one week and assume it is being deposited in the
checking account that week, and find out later that it did not happen
until the next week. 

After the last escapade I closed my checking account and moved it to
a real bank.  I still maintain my savings accounts with DCU.

    RE:  .-1
    
    Yes, that's what they told me today.  It has to do with a time lag
    in *THE SYSTEM*.  They said you can call to transfer the funds back
    to checking.  Sigh...
                   
    John

>They said you can call to transfer the funds back to checking.

You can even call Easy-Touch to find out what happened and transfer it.

But this is a crock in their implementation that assumes that you want
money put into your "primary" account even though checking is what most
people using DCU as their main bank would consider their "primary" account.

Hmmm... I wonder if you could get DEC to do direct deposit into your DCU
checking account the same way it does it to other banks, via the ACH.

Then only your specified Credit Union deduction would go through the
system with this bug.

/john

    Having been a DCU member for only about 18 months, I have noticed
    that the interest rates (both borrowing and saving) are in many
    cases not competative with the rest of the banking world.  Many
    have informed me that at one time DCU was very competative and in
    many cases had better rates than most savings institutions.
    
    If DCU was better in the past then what happened?  Will it continue
    to use non-competative rates and hope that the convenience factor
    will keep the DCU in business?
    
    Case in point, I was recently looking for a Home Equity loan.  DCU
    puts out a brochure about how great their rates are for a Home Equity
    loan.  9.5% and several hundred dollars to close.  Next I pick up
    the newspaper and find several banks who will provide a Home Equity
    Loan for 1% over prime (prime is currently 7.5%) and NO closing
    costs.
    
    Does anybody else feel that DCU is missing the boat, not only with
    Home Equity but car loans, Certificates of Deposit?  What do you
    thing about DCU in comparison with the rest of the market place?

    I once got a believeable (although not good) explanation of
    how payroll deductions 'work'; it goes as follows:
    
    DCU gets your money from payroll (how much, depends on payroll and
    nothing else, so the for you file with DCU affects their records
    and payrolls...)
    
    DCU has a list of $'s and accounts you want that money placed
    in.
    
    They go down the list, placing the dollar amount in each account
    as long as there are dollars and entries left.
    	If they run out of entries and have dollars left, they go
    		in the last/main account.
    	If they run out of dollars first, they stop... no errors
    		warnings etc...
    
    		Joe

>    Case in point, I was recently looking for a Home Equity loan.  DCU
>    puts out a brochure about how great their rates are for a Home Equity
>    loan.  9.5% and several hundred dollars to close.  Next I pick up
>    the newspaper and find several banks who will provide a Home Equity
>    Loan for 1% over prime (prime is currently 7.5%) and NO closing
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    costs.

Be sure you are comparing the same thing.  Is the DCU mortgage a fixed rate?
The other one sounds like a variable rate.  Variable rate mortgages are lower
than fixed everywhere - even from the same bank.

-Mike

    I would concur with .3, partly because for a while I lived across
    the street from a DCU ATM.  Now that they've cut over to the VAX,
    the ATMs have been reliable (for the several months before that,
    the hours that they seemed to be working seemed to be solely the
    hours that the offices were open!).
    
    Dick
    

    .4:
    
    Who wrote this slopware?  Two three-year-olds with Crayolas?
    
    Seriously, if you didn't make a mistake, they did.
    
    Dick
    

    Can somebody give me some general info on Home Insurance and why
    
    I should or should not use METPAY ?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kevin

    re: .5 - seriously... it is even somewhat 'predictable'... DCU
    and payroll update their databases at separate times.  DCU has
    no direct control over you deductions so they disperse what
    payroll gives them.  
    
    This happens EVERY time I (and several others here in Colorado)
    change our deductions.  Perhaps it is accentuated by the
    distance from the main offices...
    
    	Joe

    One thing you didn't mention is where you are going to be moving
    to.  Each state has its own rules regarding banking.  I'm satisfied
    with DCU, but the only things I do with them are checking and (used
    to have) auto loans.  I've never in my life needed a copy of a
    cancelled check, so I don't mind not having them.
    
    But, as with anything else, you really should shop around, yes,
    even for a bank.  Rates and service charges vary widely.

        I *did* choose the DCU, and I've never been unhappy with the
        services they've provided me.  I've only had one snafu in the
        three years I've been banking with them, and that was quickly
        and amicably resolved.  (They debited a check twice; when I
        brought it to their attention, they credited my account for
        the error.  This could (and does) happen with ANY bank.)
        
        I work in Marlboro, where there is a DCU office (in MRO1) as
        well as an ATM (in MRO3, where I work).  I sometimes use an
        ATM that's part of one of the commercial networks; DCU is in
        several major networks, and they subsidize the costs.
        
        I've never needed a "returned check" from the DCU; if I had
        regular problems with anyone (e.g., American Express) incorrectly
        crediting my payments, I'd quit using their service.  That's not a
        real problem with the DCU, anyway; the standard checks have
        "carbonless copies" and are printed with sequential numbers, so
        it's difficult to lose track of what checks you've written to
        whom, and what the numbers were.  The administrative cost is
        reduced, and the savings are passed back to DCU members in the
        form of share dividends. 
        
        Would I do it again?  Sure.  My experience has been good.
        
        Tom

        As long as the DCU can loan out all the money it's got to loan, I
        (as the person who gets the interest you pay) would just as soon
        they weren't offering the lowest rate.  If they give you (the
        borrower) a lower rate, that means they pay me (the lender) less
        in interest.  They're in business to make a profit for the share
        holders, i.e., those with share draft accounts.
        
        If you have money in the DCU, and are getting a home equity loan
        anyway (instead of simply withdrawing your savings and using them
        instead), you're earning back part of what you pay the DCU in
        interest as interest on your savings.  When you borrow elsewhere,
        you're not getting a "rebate".  If you factor this in, you might
        decide that the DCU's rate really is better. 
        
        Tom

        Kevin, this is the DCU conference, not the METPAY conference.
        Your question might better be asked in USSCSL::ASKENET or in
        DELNI::CONSUMER.
        
        Tom

    When you get your committment letter from the DCU, they suggest
    the possibility of METPAY, so I see it as DCU related. I'd be
    interested in hearing from other folks that have had to make the
    decision to go with METPAY or some other home insurance. 
    
    Kevin

    
    This topic will be restricted to discuss DCU recommendation of METPAY,
    and not discussing preference in insurance. That is the only way
    you can keep it DCU related. Once you start comparing insurance
    companies it is no longer DCU related, and the discussion will be
    closed. 
    
    Nisreen
    
    
    
    

    Re: .1
    
    Mike,
    
    I thought that all of the currently offered Home Equity loans offered
    by various lending institutions ONLY offered variable.  DCU is no
    exception.
    
    Do you know of a bank/lending institution who will write a fixed
    rate home equity loan?
    
    re: .2
    
    Tom,
    
    I am currently have both a savings and a checking account with DCU
    but I still plan on getting the best deal whether that be with DCU
    or not.  I would prefer to do more business with DCU but not if
    I can save some money by going elsewhere.
    
    
    pjc

METPAY is the only insurance company/program accepted by DCU
(well, actually BancBoston Mortgage Co.) to avoid the requirement 
for insurance payments to be escrowed.

It is up to the individual to decide if this, and the 5% (?)
discount of METPAY are significant factors in the choice of 
home insurance.

Bruce (mortgage through DCU, insurance by METPAY)

    As both a borrower and lender, I want good rates on both ends.
    
    Impossible you say?  Not at all.  
    
    All DCU has to do is keep the middle (overhead, loan losses,
    transaction costs, and so forth) to a minimum.  Then they can give
    better than average rates on both ends.
    
    Credit unions start with a few advantages: favorable tax and regulatory
    treatment, no true stockholders demanding their cut, a fairly
    homogeneous debtor and depositor base, convenience in dealing primarily
    with a single payroll system.  The rest is just good management,
    which is not easy, as we all know who have tried it.

             -< Must not have been awake. >-
    
    Have been with METPAY since they replaced Liberty Mutual.
    
    Have been with DCU since a month or so of its birth.
    
    Have a 'Line of Credit' with DCU.      
    
    Have had a 'PC' loan with DCU.
    
    Was not aware that METPAY was required, but with all the other details
    invloved in obtaining a 'second mortgage', it may have got by me.
    
    Observations:
    
    No problems with DCU. (of course I sit on the second floor of PKO3
    on the Parker Steet end and can see DCU headquarters form my desk.
    but I have never had to 'storm' over there. It just made it convienient
    when we 'closed' on the line of credit.
                                  
    No problems with METPAY, infact when I went in to identify the fact
    that my new car had come equipped with an anti theft device, I
    quickly had my premium reduced and was given a credit retroactive
    to the purchase of the car. (10 months prior) Again I have the
    convience of a 5 day a week METPAY office just down a flight of
    stairs.
    
    Fred 223-3935
                                   

Re: .2 
	
	You don't really think you're getting the benefit of the DCU's
high rates, do you?  I've been with the DCU since it opened for the sake
of being able to get money at work. I've NEVER seen the DCU offer
competitive rates on loans.  (Which is why there are Credit Unions. they
weren't created to feed the fat cats with high interest.) 

Before there was a DCU, DEC (Maynard) used to deal with Worker's Credit
Union in Fitchburg, MA. When the DCU came along, not only did DEC change
its business away, promising they'd be able to give the employees a
better deal, but they rigged payroll deduction so you could no longer
have your money sent to Worker's even if you wanted to!  Worker's still
offers a better rate than DCU and approves loans OVER THE PHONE! 

I'm not sure how the interest payment rates compare, but I've always 
been able to beat DCU's rates on instruments, so I assume it can be beat 
on accounts as well.  

The other thing that always bothered me, back when I cared was that when
a surplus was declared, it was never be generally distributed to the
shareholders (you know why your buckies are called "shares" right?)  It
would get distributed to shareholders who kept one account or another
over a certain amount.  The one I remember was where you needed an
average account balance for the year of $500.  In those days I was just
able to live check to check: I should funnel my money into the DCU so
they can pay the benefits to people who have nothing to do with $500 but
let it sit for a year? 

The DCU is not a good deal to the little guy, and for that reason, I 
don't give them my money.  It's the 60's radical hippie in me.  

						>>>==>PStJTT

	re: .2

	If I remember correctly, DCU charges *YOU* $1.25 service
	charge for *EACH* photo copy of the cancelled check.
	

.7>	If I remember correctly, DCU charges *YOU* $1.25 service
.7>	charge for *EACH* photo copy of the cancelled check.
        
        Gee, at that low fee, I don't see how they can recover the
        cost of finding the cancelled check and generating the copy,
        so I have to assume they're subsidizing the cost of of the
        savings in not sorting and returning the cancelled checks.
        
        Tom

    According to what I have, it's free if you need it for tax purposes
    [i.e. and IRS audit]..
    
    I too would choose the DCU INSTANTLY if given the choice.  I've
    been in for almost 7 years and I've only had one problem.  A
    malfunctioning ATM triple debited my ex-wife's account.  It was
    swiftly taken care of.  Not just the amount off but ALL charges
    as a result [bounced checks].

    or to prove payment...  I had to have a copy made and the teller
    asked if it was to prove payment.  I said yes, and was not charged.
    
    Scott

    Does anyone know when DCU will open branches in California,
    specifically in the Santa Clara area?  The nearest branches are in
    Colorado Springs and Phoenix.  Also, what criteria does DCU use in
    deciding when and where to open new branches?
    
    John

        There should be a DCU branch in Santa Clara sometime this
        calendar year.
        

    
    
    
    
    				GREAT!!!
    
    
    

Here are the people running for three positions on the DCU board of
directors.  I looked them up in ELF, and indicated the site code where
ELF didn't have an electronic address.

  Ernestine Anderson *	BEANCT::ANDERSON
  Homer Cates		BRAT::CATES
  Donato Infante, Jr. *	@MLO
  Phil Perkins		CSTVAX::PERKINS
  Susan Shapiro *	OGOMTS::SHAPIRO
  Mike Thornton		@NRO
  Paul Van De Wal	@ICO

(The asterisk indicates the current board members.)

Ballots were mailed out to all members (16 years or older as of 12/31/86)
on 13 February.  They must be returned by 13 March.

Jim Stratton

    I have just received a shocking piece of information from the Credit
    Union, that I thought might interest all of you.
    
    Due to the new tax laws and the low interested paid by DCU on my
    IRA, I decided to transfer the IRA.  After filling out all the
    paperwork for the new financial institution, I received a form from
    DCU which reads:  "I UNDERSTAND I RECEIVE NO DIVIDENDS IN THIS
    QUARTER".
    
    Now how unfair can they be?  The Credit Union has had my 4 or 5
    years worth of IRA for their use for two months this quarter and 
    they are not going to give me my dividends....I've got a surprise 
    for them. I will return the form they sent, signed with  memo which
    states that I will want the IRA transferred the day after they
    post the dividends for this quarter.
          
    The DCU does have some little idiosyncrasies that I have put up
    with over the years because of its convenience, but not receiving
    two months of interest is about the worst.  Other things that bug
    me about the DCU is: that if you have a loan on payroll deduction
    and the loan is payed up, they will continue to take the weekly
    deductions until such time as you tell them to stop; trying to 
    make changes to the payroll deduction which never get made and having
    to fill out the forms again and again; the dial up system being
    down more than it is up. 
    
    Enough of that.
    
    I just wanted everyone to be aware of DCU's interest policy

    Talking to the two people listed in Strattons's note is like talking
    to the wind.  You get the same results.  Maybe more people joining
    together can get DCU inproved.
    ed
    

        re Ed (.7) - try talking to one or more of the board members
        (see 8.0), if you feel that the Communications people (John
        Tilley and Donna Lane Nelson) are not solving your problem(s).

    What DCU is doing is NOT unusual.  Many investments work this way.
    If you are not invested on the day dividends are paid then you
    loose.  Read the fine print in your IRA agreement and you may find
    information regarding this situation.

    How about posting the same information for all the board members?
    
    Thanks,
    Bryan

  I have been a DCU member for 6 years and in general I have had
good luck. However, DCU doesn't eliminate the need for me to have a
bank checking account. There are two reasons for this:
1. DCU doesn't send canceled checks as most banks do. They have the
canceled checks on microfilm, but it would take time to get a hard
copy. There are a few transactions for which I need a canceled 
check in case the payee says he didn't get the check, and I use my
BayBank Middlesex checking account for these.

2. I work at a plant (actually two buildings 500 feet apart) that
has 650 people. There is no DCU office and no automatic teller.
The nearest DCU office is 4 miles away by road (3 miles as the crow
flies, but we don't have wings). There is a BayBank two miles away.
So if I want to write a check for cash, it's easier to go to the
bank. Not only is it closer, but I can park real close and the
line is shorter. I cash a check once a week, and it would be just
too much bother to go to the DCU office at MRO1.
  There are two ways a plant can have an automatic teller. They
must have a head count over 1000 or DEC must "buy" the automatic
teller at a high cost. Our plant manager is not willing to pay this
kind of money for no return except the convenience of employees
and (possibly) higher productivity, so we don't have an autoteller.
  

    I switched to the DCU because of the no-minimum balance 
    in the NOW accounts.

    I have saved $$$ by joining the DCU, just from escaping the fees
    that my old bank used to charge me.
    
    DM
    

RE: 4.3

I think part of the problem is that it is the federal government
(controller of credit unions) that requires that the savings
account be the primary account.

That is, the federal government views credit unions primarily as
savings institutions, with all other services being simply adjuncts.
This is why you cannot have a checking account without a savings 
account and why you must always have at least $5.00 in your savings
account.  (In fact, as I recall, formerly you couldn't even say
'checking account', you had to say 'sharedraft account' or some
such thing.)

    RE: .4 & .5
    
    I think 6.4 was referring to first mortgages, not second mortgage
    credit lines.

     DCU has  NOT  been  competitive  with  regards  to  savings/checking
     interest rates for  the past year, at least not in Mass.  I have had
     the majority of my  "free  cash"  deposited  at DCU since the day it
     opened its doors for business.
     
     However, in the past year, I have been draining most of my money out
     of DCU.  I am  currently  getting  6-3/4% at one local (South Shore)
     Credit Union and 6-1/2% at the  other.    Both of these accounts are
     adequately  insured  (either Federal, State, or both,  can't  recall
     which),  and  they  are Regular Savings accounts (no  penalties  for
     withdrawals, etc.).  DCU has been paying me 5-5-1/4% over this time.
     I  will  admit  that  these  interest  rates  are for large  savings
     accounts  (>=$5K),  but  even the lower amount savings accounts beat
     out DCU hands-down.    
     
     One  of these accounts even gave me an XPRESS 24/CIRRUS/MONEY SUPPLY
     card which  allows  transactions at ANY such machine ABSOLUTELY FREE
     (NO transaction charges  at all!!).  I realize that DCU absorbs some
     of the MONEC/POCKETBANK/PLUS System  charges, but you still must pay
     $1.00/transaction   (according  to  new  brochure)    for    non-DCU
     transactions.
     
     They must be doing something right (and better than DCU), since both
     of  them  have  been  in  business for  many  years  and  are  quite
     successful.
     
     If anyone is interested, they are Crescent Credit Union and Brockton
     Credit  Union,  both  based out of Brockton, MA.   [I  have  had  an
     account  at CCU since the mid-60's and once had a  share  loan  with
     them to buy a car.] Also, Brockton Credit Union is the  one with the
     XPRESS 24 card.
     
     FYI:  These are CU's who are open to the public, you need not belong
     to any  group/organization to join them.  [In some States, laws seem
     to require CU's  to  be closed to the general public, available only
     to sponsoring organizations.]
     
     P.S.   I  once  had  a  need  to get a copy of a check which another
     DECcie sent me  (a  DCU  check)  and  I deposited to my DCU checking
     account.  I witnessed  the  MLO DCU Manager call DCU HQ to request a
     copy,  twice!   Well, it  has  been  2+  years  now,  and  still  no
     check!!!!!  Great service, huh!  Since the check was not between two
     banks, and never had to go through  a clearing house, it should have
     been a piece of cake to find it,  oh  well...    [The  need for this
     check  has  long since disappeared, so I am not  pursuing  it,  just
     raising it as proof of DCU's efficiency. :-(]

.6>     I  will  admit  that  these  interest  rates  are for large  savings
.6>     accounts  (>=$5K),  but  even the lower amount savings accounts beat
.6>     out DCU hands-down.    
     
    But with more than $5K I can think of lots of things to do.  For
    example, a tax free bond fund pays an effective rate of 12% after
    taxes.  And a high yield bond fund about 11% taxable.  Of course,
    these funds differ from DCU in significant respects, in this case
    risk.  But so does your example.
    
    The question is, how do DCU rates on deposits compare with other 
    institutions, given comparable conditions, such as minimum
    balance, checkwriting, fees, ATM, convenience, compounding method,
    deposit credit policy and so forth.

    Has anyone gotten a mortgage through DCU recently?  
    
    We have been looking to buy a bigger house, and I was planning to go
    through the DCU when we find that "perfect" house. 
    
    I have seen a lot of notes regarding the DCU's mortgage process
    which has now made me wonder if I should stay away from the DCU
    for a mortgage.  (I do have a NOW account with the DCU, with no
    complaints).
    
    Good and bad experiences regarding a mortgage would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    DM
    

     RE: .7 
     
.6>     I  will  admit  that  these  interest  rates  are for large  savings
.6>     accounts  (>=$5K),  but  even the lower amount savings accounts beat
.6>     out DCU hands-down.    
     
     Crescent Credit Union pays the following for regular (share) savings
     accounts:
        Balance under $25.00            -       No dividend
        Balance $25.00 to $999.99       -       6%
        Balance $1000.00 to $2499.99    -       6-1/4%
        Balance $2500.00 to $4999.99    -       6-1/2%
        Balance $5000.00 or more        -       6-3/4%
     These rates are the first change in some 7 years.  Up until June 30,
     1986, CCU paid 7%  on  ALL  Share accounts, subsequent to that date,
     the above rates are in effect.
        
     If my memory is correct,  Brockton  Credit Union pays 6-1/2% for >$x
     (x=$500.  or $1000.).  DCU  has  been  paying ~5-1/4% for quite some
     time  now, even for large savings or  NOW  accounts,  so  the  %-age
     difference is significant.
     
>    But with more than $5K I can think of lots of things to do.  For
>    example, a tax free bond fund pays an effective rate of 12% after
>    taxes.  And a high yield bond fund about 11% taxable.  Of course,
>    these funds differ from DCU in significant respects, in this case
>    risk.  But so does your example.

     Since I am hoping to move closer to  work, I will probably need much
     of this "free cash" when I buy my next  house,  so I am not about to
     invest it in long-term securities (or CD's).  Once I  buy  the  next
     house,  I will probably be cash-poor like many DECcies.  If  I  felt
     comfortable  that  I  could  invest  this money for the long-term, I
     would invest  in  more Municipal Bonds (Government Obligations only,
     please!).  I  also  have  prospecti  [;-)]  from  various bond funds
     (taxable and taxfree) and  they  all  claim high interest (typically
     10-12%,  giving  examples  from  random    dates).    What  is  very
     interesting is when I check Donoghue's  7-day averages the rates are
     ~4-5.5%  (Avg.    4% for taxfree), nowhere  near  the  claimed  high
     rates!!!
     
     I take exception to your comment that  CCU  or  BCU are higher risks
     than DCU.  According to the Boston Sunday Globe (2/15/87) Investment
     Column  (Beatson  Wallace)  "There  are  175  state-chartered credit
     unions subject  to  the  jurisdiction and audit of the Massachusetts
     commisioner of banks.    Deposits in these credit unions are insured
     by the Massachusetts Share Insurance Corp.  (MSIC).   ...  Officials
     of  both  insurance  agencies  (MSIC  and NCUA-DCU is NCUA  insured)
     consider the present 1.3 percent of reserves to total inured  shares
     more than adequate.  ...  The credit unions, either state or federal
     chartered, have insurance reserves far in excess  of similar figures
     for  the  Federal  Deposit Insurance Corp.  (FDIC)  or  the  Federal
     Savings  and Loan Insurance Corp." CCU is MSIC insured (not sure  if
     BCU  is  NCUA,  but otherwise it must be MSIC-by State Law), so  you
     make  the  decision,  is this a great risk??  I don't think so  (CCU
     total assets as of October 1985 were in excess of $101Million).

>    The question is, how do DCU rates on deposits compare with other 
>    institutions, given comparable conditions, such as minimum
>    balance, checkwriting, fees, ATM, convenience, compounding method,
>    deposit credit policy and so forth.

     Rates and  minimum  balances are listed above.  There are no fees as
     such, and since  I  have  no  interest in checking accounts there, I
     have no knowledge of terms.    ATM's  do not exist at CCU, BCU has a
     better ATM set-up than DCU (I  do  use  both)  as  described  in  my
     previous  reply  and there are no fees.    Both  CU's  pay  interest
     monthly and I do believe that they are  based  on  day of deposit to
     day of withdrawal.  Deposits are credited immediately, but holds are
     placed  on  personal  checks  (don't  recall exact details, but Mass
     State Law put a stop to rampant abuses a number of years ago).
     
     CCU  pays postage for mailing deposits and requests for withdrawals.
     CCU has  4  offices  in  Brockton  with one branch open until 6PM on
     Mon/Tues/Fri, 7PM on  Wed/Thurs,  and 2PM on Sat.  BCU is open until
     4PM on Sat and  has  a  number  of branches, but since any XPRESS 24
     machine will do, I have only visited their bank twice to date.
     
     RE:  Service - I  have  bought  two  cars  by  using  CU share loans
     (cheaper and much quicker to process than car loans).  I have had an
     account at CCU since the mid-60's and  have  always  been pleased by
     their service:  Share loan for car took 24 hours to approve.  I am a
     Charter member of DCU and when I applied for  the  same type of loan
     at DCU, it took more than 1 week and I  wasn't notified until 2 days
     after  it  was  approved  (and  I had to pay interest from  date  of
     approval, not date I picked up the check)!!!!
     
     For further info, BCU: 617-586-2080, CCU: 617-559-5400.

I don't know how it is currently, byt 20 months ago when I was looking 
for a mortgage (in Mass.) the DCU had a higher application fee, assessed 
more points, and was asking for a larger percentage rate than most of 
the banks and mortgage companies that I looked into.  

Given the length of the commitment, and "the magic of compound interest" 
it's probably a good idea to shop around.  Most banks are willing to 
give their general terms ( fees, points and percentage) over the phone, 
so you can check out a number of places in a few minutes.  Also, the 
real estate section of most major newspapers will print a summary of who 
is giving what rates every week.  Finally, if you're working through a 
real estate agent, they often know who is giving the best deals in the 
neighborhood.  Maybe the DCU will turn out to be your best bet -- but 
it's so easy to cover the field, you might as well do it.

						>>>==>PStJTT

    The biggest drawback I've seen with DCU is that you can't lock in
    a rate.  (BTW, this changes -- depending on whose mortgages they're
    selling, sometimes you can lock in the rate). 
    
    No matter who you go with, expect getting to closing to be a hassle.
    If all goes smoothly, you'll be pleasantly surprised!

    We recently refinanced through DCU.  No problems at all.
    

We recently refinanced. 

The process was pro'ly no more trying than through any other
financial institution, although we are disappointed that DCU
wasn't a bit better than the rest. 

We told the DCU that an addition was in progress.  In fact, when
we were told that the appraiser would be there the next week, we
chuckled over whether the house would be worth more WITH or
WITHOUT the dumpster.  The appraiser came, saw, conquered, and
wrote (correctly) that the kitchen was non-functional and under
repair.  Then BancBoston  (the secondary mortage market) wanted
another inspection report to state that 'the kitchen repairs are
fully complete' -- whatever that means.  Well, you know,
appliances, cabinets, floors, stuff like that.  Working
appliances we could provide.  Cabinets? we aren't having builtin
cabinets.  Flooring? we need the additional mortage $$$ to buy
the hardwood floors.  Catch-22!  And guess who got to pay another
$50 for the second appraisal inspection?  We insisted that DCU 
get BancBoston to accept 'kitchen is fully functional' BEFORE we 
agreed to the second inspection; we changed the commitment 
letter; we got the mortgage, no payments due until 1-April! 

Since two Digits own the house and belong to the DCU, we expected
that the DCU would take money from each of each equally.  No,
they only take it all from one.  But offered the possibility of
having an automatic tranfer from the account of the non-payer to
the account of the payer. 

I still wonder why they only investigated the credit background
of one of us, although the house and mortgage are (now) in both
names.... 

The big surprise for me was the number of forms at the closing --
twenty or twenty-five.  Including the no-urea-foam-insulation
form, the non-other-real-estate-loans form, the Massachusetts
I-can-change-my-mind-in-three-days form, but (oh, oh) THEY forgot 
the no-lead-paint-OR-no-children-under-six form.  A big change 
from the five forms in 1981 and the three in 1976.  And
everything in triplicate, so the DCU keeps one, the BancBoston
gets one, and (eventually) we will get one. 

        What is the length of time involved in a refinance?
        
        Ken

    I will check this out with the DCU because I am  also  transferring
    my IRA to a mutual fund  .... but they told me that as long as I
    did not completely cancel out my IRA I would receive interest
    calculated	on the IRA balance  each day up until the transfer ... I
    would forfit all interest only if there was no account existing when
    they were paying interest.
    
    -cynthia
    
    

We closed our mortgage (new purchase) on November 1 through
DCU.  We found DCU to be as good (or bad) as any other institution
in this regard.  BancBoston, on the other hand, has been the
worst financial institution I have ever had to deal with.  They
have LOST paperwork, including our tax bill (and claim they never
received it, yet they cashed the payment check that was included
in the same envelope).  So, beware what happens after the mortgage
is closed!

Bruce

    Having difficulty getting your hands on a cancelled check isn't
    only a problem at DCU but seems to be a problem other credit unions
    have also.  My wife is a member of a non-DEC credit union and when
    she had need of a copy of a cancelled check it was a gut wrenching
    ordeal.  I for one would like to hear all the problems that are
    being hinted at.
    
    
    JEF

    At this point I am confused too.  When I talked to DCU after signing
    the transfer approval, I was told that if the account was left open
    the interest would be paid to the account but that if you closed
    the account before the end of the quarter, the interest would not
    be posted.  Since I am leaving he IRA account open and probably
    will have some low $ amount put in each week in the near future,
    I am hoping that the interest will be accrued. 
    
    Will let you know.

    I have had to get copies of two checks from DCU in the past, and
    never had any problems.  The people that I talked to were very
    cordial and the copies were received in a reasonable amount of
    time.  (This was a number of years ago.) As I recall I never had
    to pay a fee for the copies.

    Although I have had a minimum of problems with DCU and would highly
    recommend them, getting a copy of a cancelled check is their low
    point.  I have had to do this only twice - the first time it took
    about 4-5 weeks.  By the time I got the copy it was moot since I
    had resolved the problem.  The second time I never did get the copy
    even though I was billed the $1.00 service charge.
    
    Larry

    For checking, auto loans:  YES!
    
    For investments, IRAs:  No!   You can do much, much better with no-load 
    mututal funds.  But, I think  banks  are  generally  a  bad  place  for 
    investments anyway.
    
    The thing I can't forget was those  long  waiting  lines in Merrimack a 
    few years back.  I don't work there  anymore,  so  maybe they no longer 
    exist?
    
         Bill
         

    Last November, the bank (not DCU) holding my mortgage switched to a
    new billing system.  For 3 months, they cashed my check without
    crediting my account.  For 3 months, I had to go to DCU to get a
    copy of the cancelled check.  In each case, I received it within
    3-5 days of the request, and I was not charged for this service.

Does anybody have any recommendations on who to vote for?

Normally I wouldn't care, but recently I have been upset with
the service (not that new board members would change that).

Thanks,
Chuck

>Normally I wouldn't care, but recently I have been upset with
>the service (not that new board members would change that).

I think it could be a worthwhile thing to shake up the board.  I 
recently got a message from Homer Cates, who is running as a black 
horse candidate.  He asked that I cast only one vote on the ballot and 
that it be for him.  I can see where it would be good for the incumbents 
to have to deal with someone who was running by petition instead of 
being selected by the nominating commitee, and I think it would be a 
strong message that we are dissatisfied with the DCU as it stands.
I plan to go for it.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Re -.1
    
    I agree.  I sent mine after voting for ALL new directors, especially
    Mr. Cates.  I figured if he wants to be on the Board bad enough
    to go the petition route, he's got my vote.  I think the DCU has
    started to decline a little and this is the only way open to the
    members to affect a change.  Vote for NEW directors.
    

    The description in 4.4 is correct, or at least is consistent with both
    the explanation I've received from the DCU and the behavior of account
    deposits when I have change the deduction amount.
    
    There is hope! There is a way that John Tilley (dtn 223-6735), et
    al. helped me put together. I don't have the specifics on me now,
    but it went something like this:
    
    There is a means to specify the ORDER in which the DCU divides up
    the lump sum they get from DEC payroll.
    
    Case 1)
    	If you were to reduce the amount going into an account and the
    net effect from the DEC payroll view is less of a lump sum to DCU,
    then the account to be reduced (or removed) MUST be the last account
    specified in the order of deductions. Otherwise the last account
    in the list is short changed until DEC and DCU match.
    
    Case 2)
    	If you are adding an account or an amount to an existing account
    and the net effect is to increase the lump sum from the DEC payroll,
    then again the account being added must be last in the deductions
    list. Until DEC and DCU match the last account will come up short
    (or $0) but all other accounts will get the right amounts.
    
    I thought that a teller at DCU HEADQUARTERS can change the ordering
    list. For case 2, have the new account added and submit a payroll
    deduction card at the same time. The DCU can the add the new (and
    last) account to the deduction order and everything will work just
    fine.
    
    This does mean if you have lots of accounts like me (all 5 family
    members have their own savings, also there are 2 checking, several
    Xmas clubs, CHEF accounts, etc...), then you need a little planning
    up front. It is do-able.
    
    Suggestion of the week:
    If my description of the above is even closely correct, there should
    be a DCU software solution to automatically reorder the deductions
    list based on the cases described. That is make deduction changes
    user transparent.
    
    Carl
    

    BTW, money deposited into family member accounts are first deposited
    into you main savings account (share .1?). A transfer transaction
    moves the $$ from there to each family member's account or sub account.

    Having worked for Homer Cates many, many moons ago (we are both
    < 1 year @DEC) I can attest that he is the type of person likely
    to shake things up.
    

The process described in 4.8 seems too simple (and therfore too complex for
mortal man to figure out). 

In credit and payment systems I've been invloved in the past, something like
this works on a proportional basis.  In other words, spread the dollars into all
accounts based on the proportion of each account to the whole. 

If the total dollar amount into the process is correct, then each account gets
its full share.  If the amount is over or under due to poor timing from Digital
payroll, (as I read it here) then each account gets at least some money dropped 
into it.

Phil Perkins

        I'm not sure how much the board of directors can change DCU,
        but I do have some evidence that one of the current board
        members is trying to help solve the problems at DCU.
        
        I mentioned a problem I had with DCU in this conference,
        and received a mail message from Susan Shapiro.  She wanted
        to know if she could take my note and show it to people working
        at DCU who could address the problem.
        
        When I had called DCU directly, I all found was people who
        didn't care.
        
        					B.J.

                     
    I forwarded a copy of the one of the notes in this topic to some
    of the candidates (the ones that had a node address listed) encouraging
    them to participate in this topic as I feel that it is only fair
    that all should get equal time. If anyone knows how to reach the 
    rest who don't have node address listed, I would appreciate it if you 
    notify them too. 
    
    I for one would like to know if the board is capable of making any
    changes or correcting any of the problems that members have with
    DCU. If not, then maybe voting isn't worth the effort..let's hope
    that is not the case. And maybe if there is some dialogue between
    the members and the board through this notesfile, something positive
    might come out of it.
    
    Nisreen
                    

    
    I don't want to defuss this topic, but regarding .7, I hope that
    the board of directers notices that all problems are not being solved
    by the folks in headquarters.  Talking to them as I had meantioned
    before is like talking to the wind.

    If you are not going to be in the Boston area you will need to have
    two accounts.  One local and DCU.  As I am from Texas they have
    no service here at all, even though we have about 600 employes in
    Dallas alone. The checking is great because it cost nothing, but
    I have not had much luck at anything else.  I was turned down for
    a $3,000 car loan because I did not include my wifes income in the
     loan app. The cars loan value was $4,600 and I always have $1,000
    to $4,000 in the DCU, as well as having 8% held out for SAVE and
    10% for stock, which either one could have been stopped and more
    that covered the payment. I joined the DCU the first time they offered
    direct deposit and have never have had a check returned, for any
    reason.  If that is not good enough credit for them I will never
    go to them again for a loan, and as soon as something as good comes
    along its bye bye DCU.  I went to a local bank and got the loan
    in 2 days from start to finish for 6 months longer at a cheeper
    intrest rate.  With policies like this I do not know how they make
    any money to pay the good rates on your "savings".
    
    Yes I am bitter.

    
    It was nice getting the personal attention from the would be(and
    current) board of directers due to notes in this notesfile.  Now
    that the election is drawing to a close, we won't see them until
    next election.  Instead of answering our complaints directly, it
    would have been nice if the directors set in motion a means of
    answering ANSWERING, responding RESPONDING to complaints.  I sure
    hope that the board has better things to do than to handle user
    complaints directly.  The current complaint
    system isn't working as evidnet by notes in this confernece.
    just my opinion
    ed
    

    Fair warning - I've been reading thru the file, and this is the
    first note that I've replied to - so the New England attitude backlash
    is coming out here first...
    
    (Mild Flame)
    
    I have no sympathy for anyone who complains about not having a branch,
    ATM or other DCU presence nearby (or even 4 miles down the road).
     I work in the field, where there isn'ta DCU branch within 500 miles!

    (Flame off)
    
         I've bben a DCU member for as long as I've been with DEC, about
    4 years.  I've had no problems with them, and will continue to use
    them for most of my banking needs.  I keep a local savings and loan
    accoutn to handle check cashing needs.

    
    REF: the elections -
    
    Anyone knows the results of the election?
    
    
    Nisreen

    
    the real pisser is where they have a branch AND ATM side by side.
    I'd favor putting the ATM in locations that have no branch!
    But that might be too much common sence for some people I know.
    ed
    

    I think one's attitude towards the presence/absence of a DCU office
    and/or ATM is largely a matter of expectation.  For those of us who
    live/work in the Boston area, it's not all that unreasonable to expect
    the DCU to be (nearly) as convenient as the commercial institutions
    with which it competes for our business. 
    
    I don't, for example, have anywhere near the same expectations from the
    credit union I joined while I was stationed in Omaha.  I suspect the
    author of .2 sees the DCU in much the same way.  That's okay as long as
    it satisfies his/her expectations. 

Good question!  Perhaps they need a branch there so they can have
a trained DCU personnum to load the cash and maintain the machine.

But still, your're right.  The automatic cash machine is most needed
where there is no branch!  Let's go for it.  Someone want to ask
DCU about why this is the way it is ?

p.s.	Does anyone from DCU read this electronic conference ??

/Eric

        There are lots of "cash machines" where there aren't DCU branches.
        But since DCU pays someone else (typically another bank or the ATM
        network) to maintain these, it quite reasonably passes on part of
        the cost of use to the user.  These ATMs are in a variety of
        places, such as other banks, grocery stores, and the like. 
        
        While it would be "nice" if DCU had more DCU ATMs in DEC locations
        that don't have DCU offices, they would have to maintain them, and
        unless they drew enough business, they wouldn't be profitable. 
        
        Tom

    I have had good luck with DCU so far.  I'm in Detroit and have no
    branch near either. 
    
    But, I use the ATM's connected to the PLUS network. I've been able to
    use my DCU card in Chicago, Santa Clara and several machines here in
    Detroit.  The way I find an ATM is to call 1-800-THE-PLUS.  The robot
    on the other end will ask for the area code and exchange(1st 3 digits)
    of the phone you are calling from. The robot will then tell you the
    locations of two ATM PLUS machines near you.  Instant money!    

    Happy ATMing.
    
    Jim Stremick

There is an ATM in MKO2, and an office in MKO1.  I always walk over, as I
threw away my DCU ATM card quite a while ago.  Besides, the thing is
embarassing to use, with its little voice prompting you along.

I sure hope that NOBODY from the DCU is reading this, as DCU employees
are not Digital employees, and should have no access to this network.
Members of the Board of Directors (whoever they might be - don't they
ever announce election results?) might be expected to pass along any
concerns.

    With the moderator's OK, I have talked with John Tilley of the DCU
    and DEC corporate security folks.
    
    Mr. Tilley is most interested in gaining the insight into the complaints
    of DCU members. The issues of credit cards, etc. is of great interest
    to the DCU (no specifics at this time). DEC security is just as
    interested in the conference entries staying right where they are;
    inside DEC. 
    
    Several options have been discussed, these include:
    
    o print the notes and mail the hardcopy, (risk: security & individuals
    objections).
    
    o get personal to summarize the entries and have the DCU address
    the issues in the DCU information publication that comes with the
    monthly statements (risk: minimal, but too much filtering).
    
    o establish a note in this conference, for the explicit intention
    of communicating (hardcopy or softcopy) replies to the DCU. Replies
    from the DCU would be posted there too (risk: must be cleared with
    security, proper posting of notes intent, duplicate discussions).

    o other......
    
    What do you think? If you are a security or personal type, please
    let us know in your reply here. Well, its almost time to fish or
    cut bait!
    
    Carl
    

        
        With the proper posting of the intent of the entire notesfile,
        is it altogether impossible to have the the whole thing made
        available to (all or part of) the DCU for their perusal &
        feedback?
        
        I understand the importance of seperating the DCU and its
        employees from the Enet, but aren't there employees of DEC
        w/in the DCU?  Specifically, do the board members ever read
        this file?  Maybe they should.
        
	Rob

	Here is the current DCU Board of Directors.

	Mark Steinkrauss (chairman)      @MSO
	George Herman                    PIGGY::GEORGE
	Donato Infante                   @MLO
	James Lawless                    @FXO
	Cherlene O'Brien                 @CFO
	Susan Shapiro                    OGOMTS::SHAPIRO
	Paul Van de Wal                  @ICO

	The "mail" information comes from Elf.

Jim Stratton

    
    I object to anyone taking a note that I have written in any part
    outside of the conference it was written in.
    I will make my complaints via official channels first.  Thats
    the proper way to get problems solved( even if I have expressed
    my concerns elsewhere).
    Those entering complaints within should be aware that during 
    election time, prespective directers may contact them regarding
    notes entered, even if the contact is lip service.
    ed
    

Since this file is a semi-public forum, I don't see why people would 
object to having the notes extracted and circulated.  The only 
requirements for reading this file, at present, are access to a VAX, 
knowledge of NOTES, and the knowledge that this file exists.  You have
no way of knowing *who* reads the contents of this file. The network is
not even marginally secure.  If you're saying things about the DCU that
you feel you couldn't defend if confronted by a DCU employee, then you
shouldn't be saying them AT ALL. 

Personally, I was hoping that this file *was* being read by DCU 
employees.  That's much better than having it be a pointless, powerless 
collection of gripes.
					>>>==>PStJTT

>>            Specifically, do the board members ever read
>>        this file?  Maybe they should.

    Wouldn't that solve both problems?  That is, the board members (who
    represent *us*, after all) could read this conference (if they can't
    get to notes, maybe someone (moderators?) could mail copies to them),
    then summarize our concerns to DCU management.
    
    Note that while the board members are DEC employees (thus no security
    problem), specific notes should only be used with the author's
    permission (sort of like writing a personal letter).
    
    Bruce

>specific notes should only be used with the author's  permission (sort of
>like writing a personal letter).

But this is a work related conference.

Notes written here are more like business letters than personal letters.

/john

    I just got off the phone with Mr. Mark Steinkrauss, chairman of the DCU
    board and a DEC employee. He has agreed to review this file and
    transmit summarized information of interest to the DCU. 
    
    Names of individuals will *NOT* be included. The method of review will
    be via a batch command file that will read and mail the new entries to
    Mark. 
    
    It is not clear at this time if or how Mark (representing the DCU) will
    respond. It is possible that the issues raised in this conference may
    appear in future DCU monthly mailings. 

    Carl

        Mr. Taber, sir:
        
        In your reply (.12) you make the statement "The network is
        not even marginally secure."
        
        To paraphrase another part of your reply, if you're saying
        things about the network that you feel you couldn't defend
        if confronted by network management, then you shouldn't be
        saying them at all.
        
        If you are aware of problems with network security, please
        present the evidence to Pete McVay, who has responsibility
        for helping maintain the security of the Easynet.  Otherwise,
        please don't paint with such a broad brush.
        
        Thanks for your consideration.
        
        Tom
        
        PS:  There are ongoing discussions of the Easynet security
        program in the ANCHOR::EASYNET conference; KP7/Select, etc.

Mr. Blinn, Sir,

	Since you've brought this up publicly, I'll respond in kind, and 
then we can use channels for any further discussion.  (Besides, it might 
be helpful for others to know the extent to which we are an open 
network.)

	The first level of leakage on the network comes via friends and
family of DEC employees.  The employees themselves give out dial-up
numbers and login information.  Usually so the people receiving the
information can play games and read notes. There are at least four times
that I've caught someone's kid tripping a security alarm on systems that
I've managed. 

	The second level of leakage is terminated employees who still 
have active accounts.  On systems I've taken over, I've found accounts 
for people who have been gone as long as five years.  The usual response 
to that is "Oh, that's <supply name here>, he's OK."

	The third level is the hard-core hacker.  If you have anything 
to do with the network, then you know we've been hit by them before.  

	Information from the engineering net has appeared in magazines,
newspapers, is frequently quoted by customers at DECUS and in one case a
whole advertising campaign was swiped and somehow got to a competitor. 
THIS IS NOT A SECURE NET.  You cannot know who is reading public files. 
If you have something to say that you'd be ashamed of, don't say it 
here. 

>        To paraphrase another part of your reply, if you're saying
>        things about the network that you feel you couldn't defend
>        if confronted by network management, then you shouldn't be
>        saying them at all.

By all means, confront me, and deny any of the above.

				>>>==>PStJTT

    Mr. Taber and Mr. Blinn, Gentlemen;
    
    As a reader of this conference, I would like to offer my opinion on the
    topic being discussed in .16 and .17. 
    
    This conference is about the DCU. The discussions of this note did
    begin by touching upon the issue of network security while in the
    context of the DCU. Further, the recent exchange may have been most
    informative to folks reading this conference, but appears to be no
    longer DCU related. 
    
    Therefore, I would like to suggest this matter be moved "off-line" or
    to a more subject related conference (as suggested in 2.16). 
    
    Carl Leeber
    
    I 

        Agreed.  I don't disagree with Mr. Taber that there are problems
        with network security, and the leaks he has described do in fact
        exist.  Further discussions should take place in another forum.
        
        Tom

    Thank you Mr. Leeber for all your efforts regarding getting some
    visibility to this notesfile and the problems/complaints to DCU
    board members...
    
    
    Nisreen

    How come the DCU requires a 25/32 ratio instead of 28/36 like most
    of the other banks around town? I would have thought that they would
    have been a little more liberal than conservative...
    
    Bryan

    I just re-read all of these replies and I think I have just had
    a slightly different version of this bite me.  The scenario is as
    follows:
    
    This is what I used to do:
    	$50 a week put into my "primary" account
	$200 week into my share draft account
    	$remainder direct deposited to my local account
    
    I then sent in one of the little yellow cards to increase the amount
    for share draft from $200 to $235 a week.  That is ALL that I filled
    in on the form (other than badge #, etc.)
    
    This is what I got:
    	$0 a week in my "primary" account
    	$235 a week in my share draft account
    	$remainder direct deposited...
    
    When I called them to ask why this happened, I was told that I should
    fill in ALL the fields for which I currently have deductions.  In other
    words, I should have put $50 dollars with $0 change in the primary
    field.  I said that that was rather non-obvious, and the person I was
    talking to agreed.  Her reaction was that the form should make it clear
    that you should fill in ALL fields.  My reaction is that since it is a
    Change form, if I don't put something in a field it should stay the way
    it was.  She also said that "it depended on who does the data entry" as
    well.  In other words, one person might do it "my way" and another
    might do it "her way."  Is this any way to run a bank/credit
    union/whatever?  Everytime I use one of those @#*& yellow forms,
    it's a new adventure in creative accounting...
    
    Perry

    The ratios they used when we applied last year were still 28/36,
    but if they've changed, it's probably to protect *us* (DCU members)
    from bad loans, or perhaps tighter restrictions by FNMA (the government
    mortgage agency - I think that's the right acronym).

I applied for a mortgage with DCU on August 24th.
I want to lock in the rate.

The person who wrote up the application believes
that it is not possible to lock in the rate.
I asked about this at application and recently
over the phone.  No can do.  Period.

Has anyone applied for a DCU mortgage since about
August 1st, 1987?  Were you able to lock in before
commitment?  On what date?  Who wrote up your application?

Reply either here or if you prefer, to WONDER::STANLEY.
Thanks in advance for any info.

				Tim Stanley



Posted to CONSUMER, REAL_ESTATE

    Hi everyone;
    
    Just a status report on the transmission of new entries in this
    conference to the chairman of the DCU board of directors. As the author
    of this arrangement (with this conference moderator's blessing), I did
    touch base with Mark Steinkrauss (Chairman and DEC employee) and John
    Tilley (Customer Service Representative and DCU employee). They assure
    me that: 
    
    1) Mr. Steinkrauss is receiving the entries (*),
    
    2) they find value to the information contained in them, and
    
    3) they have acted as a result of information entered in this
    conference (example: I'm told a programmer will be brought in RE:
    46.0).
    
    (*) Mr. Tilley receives information from Mr. Steinkrauss via hard-copy
    summaries, stripped of DEC employee information. 
    
    It is my hope (and reason for my being involved in this effort) that
    DEC employees have and continue to benefit from the direct
    communication to the top of the DCU.
    
    Carl Leeber 

    Our business unit is planning to move to Westford MA, and we would
    like to know what it would take to have a branch or at least an ATM there.

    What does it take to justify opening a new branch?
    
    How many customers would be needed?

    How does DCU calculate the number of customers they would expect
    at the site?
    
    How much money "on deposit" would be needed?

    How do we inform them so they will be ready when we are?
                                                            
    	Rick
    	Merrill

    Hi everyone;

    I am pleased to announce that the DCU has chosen to "officially"
    respond to some of the issues discussed by noters of this conference,
    *IN* this conference. I have agreed to place the responses sent to me
    by John Tilley in the conference. 
    
    I quote the opening paragraph from John Tilley: 
    
    " To make the DCU notes file a useful two-way communication tool, the
    DCU Communication Department will respond to notes regarding credit
    union policies and procedures for clarification and understanding. 

    All members are encouraged to call the Communication Department at
    DTN/223-6735, ext. 239 or 207 for individual assistance or problem
    resolution. " 

    The DCU communications arrive via hard-copy. I will break the DCU's
    response memo into topic areas and enter the responses as a reply to
    the appropriate note (wherever possible). I will continue this effort
    until: 
        
    1) It takes too much time (I do still work for DEC {:^)> ), 
    
    2) Someone else steps forward to do this, or 
    
    3) The volume of responses gets too big. 
    
    I hope that this plan serves to help the noters of this conference. 
    

    Carl Leeber
    Maintainer-Of-Batch-Mailing-Of-New-Notes-To-DCU-Chairman

    

Well...without putting my hand up  - I think what you're doing Carl, 
is Great - and will make this file even a better forum for useful 
discussion (and may hopefully lead to direct DCU access - even if
its under the watchful eye of security)

    If you find that you need assistance in doing the communications
    with the Credit Union, I would be willing to assist you.
    
    Ed..
    

    I can't believe .0 complained about the 'nearest' DCU branch
    being 4 miles away !!!   Our closest is + 25 miles away!
    Sure there are lots of ATM's around, but MOST of them don't
    allow you to make deposits to DCU, and a lot of them only
    seem to accept the DCU card 'when they feel like it'
    Baybanks are in every town i'm in.  My checking account might
    be with DCU, but Baybanks gets my vote for everything else!

    I would just like to personally thank you.
    
                                 -=> Jim <=-
    
    

    Hi folks...
    
    John Tilley has again sent official responses for posting. These
    will be handled as before (see note 2.22). The date of record is
    23-November-1987.
    
    Remaining at your service, I am...
    
    Carl Leeber
    {maintainer_of_batch_mailing_of_new_DCU_notes_entries_to_the_DCU_BOD_chair}

    Carl Leeber
    {maintainer_of_batch_mailing_of_new_entries_to_DCU_BOD_Chair}

    
    Well, now that the calender year is almost over, is there a new
    date for the calif. branch to open.
    

    Hi Folks;
    
    I hope your holidays were safe and happy.
    
    Most of the new entries between December 24th and January 5th, posted
    in this conference, were not sent to Mr. Steinkrauss until January 5th.
    This was due to a cluster "glitch" that stopped the batch job
    responsible for extracting and mailing the new entries. 
    
    This problem has no effect on the notes conference itself, but did
    delay the transmission of the new entries to the DCU Board Chairman. It
    is anticipated that efforts to finally resolve the cluster problem will
    interrupt information flow over the coming days (weeks?). I will do
    what I can to keep the information moving. 
    
    Carl
    {maintainer_of_the_mailing_of_new_DCU_notes_entries_to_BOD_chair}
    

    Hi All...
    
    John Tilley has again sent official responses for posting. These
    will be handled as before (see note 2.22). The date of record is
    5-January-1988.
    
    Remaining at your service, I am...
    
    Carl Leeber
    {maintainer_of_batch_mailing_of_new_entries_to_DCU_BOD_chair}

    		-< While we're at it in CA >-
    
    I have stumbled accross a buying club which has membership restricted
    to employees of member companies and to members of certain credit 
    unions.  It is called the "Price Club" and if DCU is opening a branch 
    out here I would like to suggest that DCU participation in the Price Club
    could be a significant incentive for bay area locals to bank with DCU.
               
    Paul Hebert

    Hi folks...
    
    John Tilley has again sent official responses for posting. These
    will be handled as before (see note 2.22). The date of record is
    18-January-1988.
        
    Remaining at your service, I am...
    
    Carl Leeber
    {maintainer_of_batch_mailing_of_new_DCU_notes_entries_to_the_DCU_BOD_chair}

    Attention all fellow DCU conference noters: 
    
    I feel I must stress: 
    
    Due to technical problems on the host cluster, extractions of new are
    *NOT* going to the DCU chairman of the board (DEC employee). This is a
    *TEMPORARY* condition! 
    
    Several folks have made note entries that seem to expect DCU responses.
    These entries were after the conference moderator posted a note
    indicating the temporary suspension of mailings. The entries are ok (of
    course), but please set your expectations for replies accordingly! 

    Carl
    {maintainer-of-batch-extract-of-new-entries-to-DCU-bod-chair}

    Now that the calendar year is OVER is there anymore info on when
    the branch in Calif. will open if ever.
    
    Jim

    re .30
    
    Does this mean that from such and such a date till another, those
    messages will never get to the chairman of the board or they will
    be delayed?
    
    Don

    
    re -1: All it means is that the messages are not currently reaching
    DCU but will be sent in at a later date.
    
    NJS

    The extraction and mailing batch process has been restarted today,
    Friday, 05-February-1988, at 17:11. The mailing is to Mark Steinkrauss,
    chairman-of-the-board and DEC employee.
    
    The batch process sent extracted notes and replies from 12-January-1988
    through today. This covers all entries since the process was previously
    stopped.
    
    Carl

    I thought the savings were supposed to earn money market rates. 
    They, in fact, are the lowest paying rates for a savings account.
    Other Credit Unions are paying 6-7% around the Marlboro, MA area.
    
    I, therefore, do not keep much in my savings.  I do have a checking
    and the only thing I don't like about it is the $1.75 charge for
    the ATM.  This still may be less then other service fees, but, it
    would be nice if the checking account were totally free and earned
    a money market rate for a constant balance over $1,000.00.  I guess
    that's asking too much.
    
    Kathy

    If I am to buy a new house and sell the old one, I must take posession
    of the new house before the new owner can get posession of the old
    one.  Last time, I used a bridge loan, which was a second mortgage
    on the old house to cover the down payment on the new one.  A
    commercial bank was happy to give it, since I had a signed P&S on
    the old house and was taking their mortgage for the new one.
    
    DCU, however, recently said "no bridge loans" when I asked about
    a mortgage on another pending move.  I'm supposed to rent the house
    from the seller until I move in!  The seller is less than enthusiastic
    since _they_ already have a bridge loan they want to pay off.
    
    Anybody get DCU to bend on this?  They currently have the lowest
    rate going, otherwise I wouldn't care.
           fred

I can't believe DCU has the lowest rate - shop around - have you tried 
coop bank of concord - they gave me a bottom rate, a 90 day lock in, a 
H.E loan on the new property at closing to serve as a bridge loan 
(e.g., it was low-interest, and FREE), no tax escrow ( did have a high 
down payment) and professional service with a smile.

Were that DCU could do the same...(sigh)

    RE: .19
    
    Don't you mean $1.00 for using non-DCU ATMs? At least that is what
    I am charged.
    
    -Glenn-

    I HAVE GOTTEN COPY CHECKS A COUPLE OF TIMES FAST AND NO CHARGE.
    FOR REGULER CHECKING I LIKE DCU ITS CONVIENT AND I HAVE NEVER
    HAD ANY PROBLEMS. FOR LOANS I USE THE TEXAS INSTRUMENTS CREDIT UNION
    DCU TAKES TO LONG TO APRROVE AND HAS BEEN NOTHING BUT A HASSEL
    HALF THE TIME THEY SAY NO. THE TI CREDIT UNION PROCESS ALL LOAN
    REQUESTS IN 24 HOURS AND THEY HAVE NEVER TURNED ME DOWN. 
    A FEW MOTHS AGO I DEPOSITED A LARGE OUT OF STATE PERSONAL CHECK
    IN MY TI ACCOUNT. THEY SAID I WOULD HAVE TO WAIT 10 DAYS FOR IT
    TO CLEAR, I SAID I NEEDED TO DRAW ON IT BEFORE THEN SO WHAT THEY
    DID WAS TRANSFER CASH INTO MY ACCOUNT TO COVER IT UNTIL MY 
    CHECK CLEARED AND TOLD ME I WOULD BE IN A WORLD OF S**T IF IT 
    DIDN'T CLEAR. DCU NEVER WOULD HAVE DONE THAT.   
                

    Will it do good for then to read these notes,you talk to thier
    face and that does no good...you answer the question.
    

    ask to speak to a manager who is more likely to be able to give
    you the corrct answer.   To often the Clerk is willing to give you
    the wrong answer because they dont know any better and they certainly
    dont have the ability to modify the terms and conditions.
    
    Just remember that the "right" answer for one trying to get a loan
    may not be the same as one who has the money on deposit that you
    chose to borrow.    

    re: .34
    
    Where there is communication there is hope. Where there is no exchange
    there is no opportunity.
    
    Carl

    I UNDERSTAND WHAT BIG DEAL IS,
    You have right to do as I do every week.
    I have direct deposit so I know that the deposit go in on wednesday
    afternoon so I use the tuch-tone system on thursday afternoon to
    if the money was as I want it.
    If you don`t have the tuch-tone system--you don`t work for DEC.
    If you work for DEC and have the toch-tone system--some good person
    should teach you the way to use it.
    I had a little trouble the first time I user DCU and John Tilly
    fixed it for me fast.
    If I find A problem,I go fast to the DCU office and don`t leave
    unless this taking care of first.(Even if I`m wrong they show me)
    If you get payed thursday check the toch-tone system on friday.
    
    As some said before John tilley is A good man and will help if you
    give him A chance.....We had him in Vermont before....good man.
    
    gus
    

    Did we ever get an answeer on the branch office in California.

    Was talking to the DCU about a momth ago.  They said they are ready
    to open a branch in Santa Clara, CA (WRO).  The only thing they
    are waiting for is space in the WRO site.  The said maybe October
    1988.  
    
    Warren

    General Comment on Official;
    {...or funny what you think of on weekends.}
    
    While it has never come up in this conference, I wondered "What defines
    an Official DCU Response"?
    
    It is my view that,
    
    "Any WRITTEN communication from the DCU that is entered, as a whole
    single base note or response or in parts corresponding to specific or
    new notes topics, into this conference constitutes an "Official DCU
    Response", where the DCU communication states the intention for the
    entry to be made". 
    
    To date the "written communication" has been in the form of a letter
    on DCU letterhead, signed by John Tilley. All of these letters has
    stated the request that the "...enclosed information be entered...".
    
    Comments?
    
    Carl

    
    folks,
    I just happened to call dcu to get interest rates on car loans.
    I was  stunned by their rates as they are not at all competetive
    to local banks in South Carolina. I really dont understand why
    they lend money on variable interest rate where the whole world
    is dealing with fixed here. I also called a local credit union
    here to get a rate. Their rate is 9.9 % fixed. Unfortunately, I
    am not a member of that credit union and DIGITAL is not listed
    as one of their companies to enroll as it has its own. 
    I guess dcu is one of the great benifits that employee can get
    from DEC. Please shop around before you approach dcu.
    suneel
    

        It always pays to shop around when you're looking for ANY service.
        
        As a DCU member who doesn't have a car loan with them, or any
        other loan for that matter, I'm pleased that they provide the
        variable rate loans.  This helps guarantee that I'll get a good
        return on the money I've deposited (and that you or someone else
        has borrowed) even if the market rate for loans changes.  And,
        while the rate can go up, it can also go down (not that that
        looks likely anytime soon, if you believe the prognosticators).
        
        Tom

       I've had loans with other CU's. All I had to do was put a few
    ($15) dollars into a savings account.
                                                     Denny

        It depends on the Credit Union.  Some credit unions can allow
        almost anyone to join; others cannot.  It depends on, among
        other things, whether their charter is federal or state or
        whatever, and the applicable laws.  So while you may have been
        able to get a loan from some particular credit union by opening
        a savings account (and, presumably, thereby becoming a member),
        you may not be able to do that with other credit unions.
        
        Tom

    Hi folks,
    
    I will be "off-line" for three weeks beginning 7/23 (Sat) and ending
    8/14 (Sun). During this time (for vacation, training, etc.), the
    supported POSTING path for the DCU will be unavailable to them. They
    will continue to RECEIVE (via mail to Mark Steinkrauss) extractions
    from this conference as long as the extraction host cluster remains up. 

    Please allow for this delay, when posting questions in the conference
    for the DCU to answer. Remember, if its a barn-burner or just a
    need for information, a phone call to Mary Madden (dtn 223-6735
    x239) will make your request or question visible ASAP.

    About to have... "Summer Fun!", 
    
    Carl Leeber
    {Maintainer-of-vaxnotes-extraction-of-new-entries-to-dcu-chair}
    
    Set mode = {GONE_FISHING}

    Any futher word(s) on the branch in Santa Clara.......?
   

    Hi Folks,
    
    True to form, while I was out getting some R&R, the batch job that
    relays the new entries to the DCU board chair died. I think entries
    from 21-JUL-1988 to 1-AUG-1988 did go through. But some point after
    that until tomorrow (at 2:20am EDT) nothing. The batch job has been
    re-queued. 
    
    Carl
    
    {Set mode = on_line}

    .... Oh yes, the restarted batch job (see .-1) will send anything
    that was not previously sent to the DCU board chair. Carl

    
    I STILL continue to be confussed/amused that these notes be sent
    to the DCU board Chairman, YET replies come from the PR person,
    the former John Tilley, or the new one.
    IF, yes IF the pr position satisifed us with answers, why does the
    board chairman think we still write here?  Why Mr board Chairman,
    don't YOU respond to us?
    And another I told you so, where are those who were looking for
    office?  where is the board now that elections are over.  Do we
    see them only once a year?
    just wondering
    ed
    

    
    Ed,
    
    Note 2.15 deals with the question.
    
    The Chair is a DEC employee. The agreement is that he will reveiw
    the notes from the file and transmit summarized information of interest
    to DCU. 
    
    The issue we were dealing with at the time is Security, and that
    seemed the easiest way to handle getting questions and responses
    back from DCU.
    
    Nisreen

    Thank you Nisereen, but I was mearly pointing out *THE* problem.
    
    The chairman may receive these entries, but does NOT respond to
    us.
    
    I was also pointing out that *IF* the PR person slot *worked*, then
    some of us would not be putting our  complaints here.  
    
    ITS TIME THAT THOSE ON THE BOARD MADE AN EFFORT TO TALK WITH THE
    DCU MEMBERS!  and not just at election time.
    
    ed
    

        Is this list still current? I'm fed up to the point that I intend
        to write each of these folks, and tell them WHY. If I don't get
        action to resolve the problems, rather than taking my money and
        run, I will do what I can to change all of these names. If it is
        the only way to shake up DCU, I'll run myself! 

        There has been at least one election since I posted 8.12.
        I don't remember if all the incumbants were re-elected.
        I think that was data we lost when this file had to be
        restored from backup some months ago.
        
Jim Stratton
        

    All incumbants were re-elected during the last election; by close
    to a 2:1 advantage; incumbancy has it's advantages.
    
    Jay
    

    Well, we're sneaking up on the end of the second year, any word
    yet on the California Branch.

    
    Jim

    What I like best about DCU is that you can have your salary divided
    into a number of pieces: Savings, checking, Xmas, Vacation, etc.
    Yes, I could achieve the same effect myself, but it's nice having
    it done for me.
    
    Regarding cancelled checks, I find that NOT having them is an
    advantage. Previously, I had boxes full of them and could never
    find one without sorting the entire mess.  Now all I need to do
    is keep the carbon copies, and, if I really need a copy of the actual
    check, DCU is maintaining them for me. (Since the carbon copies
    are bound in books, they're also easier to manage).
    
    Finally, I like the statement format itself.  It's small, and generally
    fits on a single page.  My BayBank statement on the other hand,
    never is less than two pages, even if I've not written a check at
    all, and is difficult to read.
    
    Rich
    

I *hate* check carbons.  They are a pain in the ass to me.  When I start a new
book of checks, I rip all the check carbons out.

Jim. 

    I thought that we could ask to have books with out them?
    

>    I thought that we could ask to have books with out them?


you can, and I always have (cheaper too)

    

	Boy, you people have a lot of discipline! I got down on my knees to 
thank God for the person who invented check carbons! To each his own...

    Hi fellow DCU noters...
    
    I will be on vacation after 12/16/88 (Friday) and before 01/03/89
    (Tuesday), inclusive. The software extracting the new entries for the
    DCU will be left running, as has been the past practice. Any
    interruption of the job will not be addressed until I return. 
    
    A happy and safe holiday season to you all...
    
    Carl Leeber

    (maintainer of the batch extraction process and NOT the moderator of
    this conference!)

    
    re -1:
    
    It's Ms. Moderator - and keyword creation is enabled.
    
    have fun..
    
    Nisreen

    Its nice to know that Murphy of Murphy's Law fame was alive and well
    over the holidays. The batch process "broke" Saturday (12/17/88).
    Therefore, no new entries were sent to the DCU since then. The process
    is now "on-line".
    
    Carl

    Is there any word on weather or not there will be a branch opening
    up in California.
    
    A response would be greatly apperciated (sp?)!

    
    Thanks
    
    Jim

    Thanks, Jim for keeping this note alive.  IT'S BEEN NEARLY YEARS SINCE
    I POSTED THIS NOTE!  HOW ABOUT A RESPONSE, DCU OFFICIALS!!!  EVEN A
    SIMPLE I DON'T KNOW WOULD BE A REASONBLE RESPONSE.
    
    Regards,
    
    John

    
    	I sure hope so...plus branches in Reading, Paris, Far East,
    Valbonne, etc.  DCU Service Worldwide!!
    
    KMP

    The first that I heard was that Santa Clara was scheduled for a
    branch right after the DCU opened the Landover, Maryland branch.
    That was quite a while ago (I think it is over 2 yrs).  I called
    DCU headquarters & tried to get some information earlier this month.
    All I could get was it is being discussed.  How much discussion
    does it take?  
    
    Dennis

Gee only 2 years :*) I have been talking to the DCU for 4 years about 
getting a branch to server the ~2000 employees in NYC but no action as of 
yet (although it is always rumored to be REAL SOON NOW :*(

    After being told (see 7.1 or .2) that a DCU branch was to be in
    place "by the end of the year" we all got "excited". That was in
    Feb-1987 here it is 1989 and I CAN'T  EVEN GET A REPONSE!!
    
    Please let us know what's happening and if we can do something to
    help get the branch opened.
    
    Thak you for your support!?
    
    Jim
    

        re .1 and my statement that there'd be a Santa Clara branch
        "sometime this calendar [1987] year" - sorry, I was just
        repeating what someone from the DCU told me (as I recall,
        I was asked to put that info here).
        

    re: .16   not to worry. I also got the same info over the phone
    when I called about something else and asked this question also.
    What bothers me is that we don't get a response from someone at DCU
    that knows, be it good or bad. I guess it's because we're just a
    bunch of wild people out here. Of course THAT'S not true! Oh well,
    Thanks for the reply,
    
         Jim

I asked DCU in Colorado Springs about a branch last week, and they said *they*  
were ready - it was just a matter of getting someone in the South Bay to 
allocate space.  The Santa Clara facility apparently turned them down, but they
were talking to someone in Cupertino.  Don't remember names off hand, though.

andy

    Many topics contain the question about the DCU response rate of late. I
    have contacted Mary Madden's office twice since the new year. I have
    been assured by the person who answered her phone she is receiving the
    extraction information. There was no stated reason for the lack of
    responses. 
    
    I will check again when I return to my office (01/30/89).

    Carl Leeber
    (Not the Moderator, but the psuedo-connection to DCU.)
    

    Watcha all,
              Im a long standing employee of DIGITAL over here in the
    U.K..........WE DONT HAVE THE BENEFIT OF A COMPANY CREDIT UNION....
    Can any one tell me why there is [employee benefit differences]-when
    we all belong to the same Company!!!!I worked in Canada for some
    time,and benefitted by being in a Credit Union there??
    ............all the best, Chris.

    Re .49:                                              
    
    The simple fact is that DCU membership is NOT part of the Digital
    benefits package.  DCU is a wholly-separate entity, which under
    the National Credit Union Act is chartered to offer membership to
    a group of people with a specified common bond.  In the case of
    DCU, Section 5 of the charter reads as follows.
    
       "The field of membership shall be limited to those having the
	following common bond:
        
        Employees of the Digital Equipment Corporation who work in the
        United States or Puerto Rico, or who are paid from Maynard,
        Massachusetts, except foreign nationals at foreign locations;
        spouses of persons who died while within the field of membership
        of this credit union; employees of this credit union; persons
        retired as pensioners or annuitants from the above employment;
        members of their immediate families; organizations of such persons;
        and Digital Equipment Corporation."

    RE: .48 
    
    The following is a paraphrasing of my communication with the DCU on DCU
    responses (or lack thereof) of late. The communication was with Mary
    Madden. 
    
    [Yes, we have received the VAX Notes extractions.  Thank you for
    inquiring. During December, there was a problem receiving the
    information. That problem has since been corrected.]
    
    [Currently, a response is under discussion.  I will contact you via
    telephone when our response can be expected.]

    Re:  [All]

    I'm sure by the time the DCU 'does' get around to putting an office in
    the Santa Clara (or elsewhere within CA) area you all will have esta-
    blished a 'more convenient' method of banking.  Maybe 'then' and 'only
    then' will they 'come after you' for your business.  It's apparent from
    their lack of response that they don't see you as future customer's and
    don't feel they 'need' you.  I wish I was in business for myself and didn't
    need a customer base.

    Keep plugging away!  Maybe you'll get a response by the time your grand-
    kids 'OWN' the DCU.

    -- Rob (who wouldn't bank with the DCU if it were the 'ONLY' financial in-
            stitution in the world!)

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 10-FEB-1989, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information. 
    
    Whether you agree or disagree with the response from the DCU, please
    either direct your comments to the DCU directly (dtn-223-6735) or
    post your comments as a REPLY to this entry in this conference.
    
    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************
    It is true that the Santa Clara branch was scheduled to open in the
    Fall of 1988.  DCU was prepared with both personnel and equipment to
    open on that date. 

    To plan a new DCU branch, we project space and costs which satisfy our
    short-and long-term operational goals.  In February, 1988, we submitted
    these requirements to Digital for approval.  After extended discussions
    with Digital officials, the Santa Clara facility management opted not
    to sponsor a DCU branch. 

    Since we very much want to service our California membership locally,
    we contacted Digital officials in Cupertino, CA.  Presently, the
    facility has our proposal under consideration.  If we receive approval
    soon, we could open a California branch in 1989. 

    In our continued efforts to service Digital Equipment Corporation
    employees and their families, we also intend to open branches in
    Littleton, MA. and Atlanta, GA. this year. 
******************************************************************************

    Please be advised that DCU has responded to four topics. I have posted
    each of three of the four responses as a reply to the base note
    containing the topic. The forth topic has been placed as a reply to
    note 103, since it's response seemed to cover a number of base notes. I
    invite the moderator to relocate that reply if her insight or wisdom
    guides her to a better related base note topic. 
    
    Carl {not-the-moderator} Leeber

    Since DCU has no branches in CA yet, are DCU accounts treated as
    out-of-state by local businesses?  By the CA tax collector?
    Will any of these change after DCU opens its first branch in CA?

    
    Carl,  There were a LOT of issue raised in the period between the
    last responces and this one.  Should we be waiting for more responces
    or was the four that you posted all?  If that was it, is there any
    way that they can be approached to address other concerns brought
    up here and not just the ones they felt confortable about?
    Their tactics seems rather clever, I hope I am wrong.
    ed
    

    
Carl,

Don't you think being the messenger for DCU living a bit on the edge? I 
understand that you are relaying messages because you are a good guy, but
is there not Digital Employees on the BOD and would it not be easier for
a bonified Board of Directors Member to enter the notes. I only ask because
you always have to preface anything with "this is not me saying this".

Harry
    

    In fact, the messages are sent to Mark Steinkrauss, a DEC employee and
    BOD member. He forwards them on to dcu (hard-copy). 
    
    Why BOD members decline to participate directly in this conference has
    been the topic for other discussions (notes herein). I don't know the
    answer. 
    
    I saw a need to make a communication link that provided my fellow DEC
    noters a way to get information from a credible source (dcu versus
    hearsay). Without a "two-way" path, this conference was limited in
    providing such information. 
    
    I believe that it is the RIGHT THING TO DO in this case. I would
    welcome direct BOD (or dcu) participation in this conference, but
    I don't see a "pull" to do it, and my gentle "pushes" have resulted
    in... well, I'm still the messenger.
    
    Carl
    (not-the-moderator)

    
    I understand. Being somewhat far removed from GMA I have had some
    problems dealing with DCU and have followed this conference in hopes
    of seeing something that would justify me staying with DCU. To date
    what I have seen does not give me much encouragement. Anyway I for
    one appreciate your efforts.
    
    Harry
    

    Hello fellow DCU campers...
    
    A disc gremlin on our system has been causing many wonderful aberrations
    with mail, Nmail and, subsequently, the notes file batch extraction
    process. I can not say what extractions have been successful since
    Monday (03/27). This will possibly mean some responses posted may
    not get extracted and forwarded to DCU via Mark Steinkrauss. 
    
    I will try to "re-sync" things when our system doctor has made things
    well again (... and no its NOT a bug, virus, etc.).
    
    Carl
    a temporarily unhappy camper and not-the-moderator!

RE: 57

    Progress has been made on this problem. The extraction process is now
    able to run without crashing. 
    
    Carl

    RE: .20
    
    Why can't DCU pay for it's own expansion, instead of trying to get a
    facility to "sponsor" it?
    
    Regards,
    
    John
    

    Effective immediately, the batch EXTRACTION process servicing this
    conference will be run every THIRD NIGHT instead of every night. This
    action is only to reduce the number of times the extraction must
    edited.
    
    The reduced batch process provides pseudo-"communication" to the DCU of
    new replies and notes. The extraction is purged (manually) of specific
    identifying information before going to DCU. 

    I will be off-site for the next few weeks. While I will try to access
    the system and extract, clean and forward the batch extractions of new
    conference entries at some random intervals, PLEASE be patient when
    waiting for DCU to reply. Remember: They can't answer unless they have
    been sent the question / issue. (But YOU CAN still CALL them 223-6735
    x207- Mary Madden. {:^)>) 
    
    In a similar fashion, DCU responses will not be posted in a timely
    manner until I return to a normal office hours on or about 7/10. I will
    do what I can until then. 
    
    Carl
    NOT-The-Moderator (The Great Communicator? No, No, No....Wrongo!) 

    	I hear that the DCU now has mortgage loans in Colorado Springs.
    Has anyone had experience there?  How about the time to close? 
    Thanks
    
    Keith

    
    Any updated experiences with DCU first mortgage loans?  I have an
    appt. with them this Thursday and am still doing a bit of shopping
    around for rates, etc.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Cindy

    The extraction process for and replies from DCU will stop for the
    next two weeks while I'm on vacation. Things should start again
    on August 7th or so.
    
    Feel free to call Mary Madden at (dtn) 223-6735 x207 with any
    "barn-burners" that crop up while I'm out.
    
    Carl
    "On Vacation!"
    

    Opps!

    The move of the conference host system had caused the temporary loss of
    extraction of notes to DCU since 22-Aug-1989. It was, in fact, the DCU
    that called and asked why they were not seeing any extractions. They
    are watching! 
    
    My apologies for any delay in information flow this may have caused
    to either the members or DCU. With luck the matter should be solved
    at this writing.
    
    Carl
    (not the moderator - Batch extraction "service")

    Extraction host system has been down since last Thursday (9/21).
    The system is partially up now up now, but the batch queues are
    still "broken".
    
    When the host system is put back together, the extractions will resume.
    
    Carl
    (not the moderator, not the system manager, but extractor)

    The extraction process batch job is back on line and all new entries up
    to 27-Sep-1989 were sent this (9/28) am. 
    
    The batch extraction process presently resides on a large VAX cluster.
    It has been proposed, and actions are underway to move the batch
    process to the host system of the DCU notes conference it-self
    (BEIRUT). 

    This will help insure that when the notes conference host is up, the
    extraction process will be up also.
    
    Carl Leeber
    (not the moderator, just the extractor)

    It's that time of the year folks... for a holiday break. I will be out
    between 12/21 and 1/3/90.
    
    The batch extraction process will be running, but since the clean up is
    a manual step, nothing will go to DCU until I return. Burning issues,
    as always, can be sent to DCU by phone (dtn) 223-6735 x207. 
    
    Happy Holidays to all DCU VAX Notes-file Conference participants
    and observers. PLEASE make them SAFE as well! Peace...
    
    Carl
    
    (Maintainer of the EXTRACTION process, and NOT the moderator)

    Some of you might remember Jeff. He was an active noter in this file
    before he left DEC. Well -- I received this mail message from Jeff with
    information to post in the file. I am posting it unedited.
    
    NJS
    
    
From:	DECPA::"lsrhs!winston@GARP.MIT.EDU" "Jeff Winston"  5-FEB-1990 11:49:27.64
To:	beirut::sunnaa 
CC:	winston@GARP.MIT.EDU 
Subj:	greetings from beyond 

Hi.  you may (or may not) remember me as an active member of the DCU notes fil
before I left DEC last year.  well, I'm still a DCU member (primarily because
I live so close to the main branch).  anyway, assuming you're still the
moderator (in not, and you can pas this on, great), - I wanted to pass on
to the notes file a little tidbit of info I discovered.  Another in the
list of "you won't like to hear it, so DCU won't tell you)>
 
If you close a DCU account, DCU keeps all the interest you accrued since the
beginning of the quarter.  So, unless you close an account on the first day
of the quarter, DCU keeps some of YOUR earned income.  
 
Just thought inquiring minds would like to know.
 
/jeff
 
=================================================================
[Note:  REPLY usually doesn't work, even though it appears to.  To send 
 me mail, address it to:
 
                nm%DECWRL::"lsrhs!winston@garp.mit.edu"
 
to use a logical, type 
                $DEFINE jeff_w nm%"DECWRL::""lsrhs!winston@garp.mit.edu"""
                                        
                       thanks /j
 
  
 
======= Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) =======
Received: by decpa.pa.dec.com; id AA25661; Mon, 5 Feb 90 08:46:57 -0800
Received: by GARP.MIT.EDU with sendmail-5.61/4.7 
	id <AA00249@GARP.MIT.EDU>; Mon, 5 Feb 90 11:46:49 -0500
Received: by lsrhs (5.57/1.35)
	id AA06346; Mon, 5 Feb 90 11:01:34 EST
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 90 11:01:34 EST
From: lsrhs!winston@GARP.MIT.EDU (Jeff Winston)
Message-Id: <9002051601.AA06346@lsrhs>
To: beirut::sunnaa
Subject: greetings from beyond
Cc: winston@GARP.MIT.EDU

        Once again, there is a simple solution to such stupidity. Don't
        close your account. Withdraw everything except the last $1.00, and
        let DCU keep the account on their books forever!

To be fair, other banks indulge in this lucrative practice as well.
The last time this happened to me (in 1978, some bank in Brookline
kept 25 buck of mine in **their** pocket), was the last time this
happened to me. Since then, I just make a note to myself, then close
accounts on the correct (for me) date. 

-- Ron

    re .5
    
    The concept is of still valid, but keep in mind that  aside from
    checking, most DCU accounts have a minimum balance from anywhere
    between $5.00 (simple savings) to $100.00 (RSVP). Of course, in
    these two examples, the higher minimum balance corresponds to the
    higher interest rate. There may be other accounts with higher minimum
    balances.
    

re:    < Note 9.5 by POBOX::KAPLOW "Set the WAYBACK machine for 1982" >
   >                 -< Interesting solution to stupidity! >-
   >
   >     Once again, there is a simple solution to such stupidity. Don't
   >     close your account. Withdraw everything except the last $1.00, and
   >     let DCU keep the account on their books forever!
    
    Except that after 12 months of inactivity, accounts are charged $2.50
    per quarter. Simpler to just close it at the beginning of the quarter,
    which is what I did. (They insist on mailing you a check by the
    way.)

Well, I had an "interest"ing experience with DCU this morning, they tried to
penalize me for interest I hadn't even earned!

A CD came due several days ago (7 to be exact) so I went in to close it out. The
clerk informed me that there would be a 30 day interest penality (rather than
the 7 day interest forfeiture I expected).  To make a very long conversation
short, I reminded the clerk the CD was only 7 days old (DCU had automatically
renewed it on its due date) and it was against banking regulations to assess a
larger interest penality than been earned, but she insisted that was not the
case, so off to the manager I went.  After a brief conversation, she agreed
that the maximum penality they could assess would be 7 days.

Back at the counter, after brief instruction by the manager, the teller asked me
to sign a CD closure form, which contained language to the effect that I was
agreeing to a 30 day interest penality.  So I crossed out the 30 and replaced it
with 7 and signed the form.  Well, needless to say another round of discussions
ensued about my modifying the form, insisting that the 7 day interest penality
is all they would charge (even though the document said differently).  I
reminded her that in any legal dispute the written documentation takes precedent
over verbal agreements and that I was not agreeing to a 30 day penality, the 7
day modification would stand.  Again the intervention of the manager was
required to resolve the issue.

One really has to question either the caliber or training these tellers get.

    re: .9  You did right.
    
    But have you ever thought about what a notes files BY THE TELLERS
    would contain?  "Those digits are such know-it-alls! I wish they'd
    realize that we tellers can only do what we're taught to do."
    
    It's true, tellers are put on with very little training. When I
    go to a big bank regularly, I always wait for the head teller -
    if another is free, I have to pretend to be reading the flyers!:-)
    
    There ought to be some COMMON GROUND, such as the 'book-of-rules'
    that the bank follows.  Does anyone know what it is called? Can
    we "customers" get a copy?  
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    

    Well, it's that time of the year again.  I received my DCU ballot
    and looked at the list of people to vote on to the BOD.
    Who are these people?  Do any of them read this notes file and want
    to tell us about them selves?
    
    -Kevin
    

    When is the voting deadline?
    
    Bob

    I too am interested in information on the candidates.
    
    Jim Grubb
    Santa Clara CA

    re: .17,  Well I ask about the voting deadline, dreading a repeat of
    last years mess, and my ballot shows up in the mail yesterday.  I
    haven't opened it yet, so I don't know what the deadline is, but at
    least my vote should be counted this year.
    
    Bob

        The Voting Deadline is 5pm April 20,1990. The candidates have
        presented write-ups of themselves along with the ballot papers.
        What more do you need.
        
        q
        

    
    I've already got it and sent it back.  Out with the old and in with the
    new!
    
    Phil

    I've read the write-ups.  Such little information to make a decision
    on.  I'm sure they are all nice people.   But they seem to come
    from the same cookie cutter.   MBA,  business admistration, etc.
    And we need such people.  But it would be nice to have just *one*
    person who would best represent the interest of the common working
    person.  That choice is not available this time through the choices.
    ed
    

        Topic 206 contains some more information on one of the
        candidates.

        Sounds like a repeat of last year:
        
        1) No decent candidates, just the status quo
        
        2) No ballot (yet)
        
        Could someone who HAS a ballot list the candidates that are on the
        ballot, denoting incumbants, board nominated, and petition
        nominated choices, and maybe the 2 sentence biography that goes
        with each? Thanks.
        

    Part of the problem is that the ballots are sent out bulk rate.
    The post office doesn't treat such mail very seriously (OK, they
    don't treat *any* mail seriously, but bulk rate is a real joke).

        I just got off the phone with Mary Madden's assistant (Sorry, I
        didn't catch her name). It seems that DCU extracted a membership
        list at the close of 1989 to send out the ballots. I moved in
        January, and gave the DCU my new address. I've got all my
        statements at my new address, but the ballot must have gone to my
        old address. Since bulk rate isn't forwarded by the post office...
        
        I've been promised that new ballots are in the mail for myself and
        my wife. Anyone else not yet having a ballot should call Mary
        NOW, as the deadline is near. After the letter I wrote to the NCUA
        after last years election, I thought they might clear up some of
        these problems. Silly me...
        
        ********	REJECT ALL THE INCUMBANTS!	********

    I guess that means that if one joined DCU after 1-jan-1990 and before
    the deadline, you would also be unable to vote.
    
    Bob

    Once again, it's that time of the year folks... for a holiday break. I
    will be out from 12/21/90 to 1/7/91 exclusive.

    The batch extraction process WILL BE STOPPED this year during my
    absence. This is because my "extraction" cluster will be moved to a new
    site. I will restart it upon my return.
    
    As far as I know the host node for the VAX VMS Notes Conference on the
    DCU will remain operational during this time period. So note away! Just
    remember that your notes or replies won't be extracted until after
    1/7/91 (nor will DCU "official" responses be posted).

    No matter how you spend this time of the year, I wish you happy
    holidays, peace, health and safety. 

    Notes file extractor (and not the moderator),

    Carl                                        

    RE:  all previous replies about a Bay Area DCU branch....
    
    I know you've heard this all before, but DCU officials were here in
    early October 1990 (Cupertino - UCF) and *supposedly* will be opening a
    branch here *or* installing an ATM linked to DCU.
    
    Last I heard they are looking for space at this facility.
                                     

        Well, we just got our 1991 ballots. Only 5 candidates this year,
        for 2 slots. Both incumbants are running for reelection. Anyone
        know anything about any of the challengers? I'd like to see their
        input here before I vote for someone.

    I am one of the non-incumbents running for the DCU board of 
    directors. 
    
    All I can promise is that as a board member, I will listen to the 
    DCU membership, communicate to the membership, and effect actions of 
    the DCU in the support of its members. 
    
    If you have specific questions, I'd be happy to answer them.  
    
    In the past, I have been a board member of the Polaroid Credit 
    Union.  I have the experience, expertise, and new ideas that I think 
    are required in this year's election.
    
    Rich

    Re .-1
    
    Is there anything about the DCU that you'd like to work to change. Or
    are you happy with the DCU just as it is?
    
    Dave

        Anybody know who won the recent election? Anybody succeed in
        bouncing the incumbants?

        Yesterday I called DCU, but couldn't access this conference to
        post the information. Both incumbants, Mark Steinkraus and
        Charlene O'Brien, were reelected. I haven't seen any vote totals
        yet. If someone has more information, please post it here. Last
        time, there were more total votes for non-incumbants, but the
        incumbants were reelected beacuse of a 2-4 split.

    
    I would like to suggest that DCU stop holding these "elections" which
    cost money (that could use to do other things, like give a decent
    return on savings).  Just let us know when one of the incumbents quits
    or passes away.  Why do we persist in pretending that these positions
    are attainable for anybody but non-incumbents???
    
    I believe there needs to be a limit put on the number of consecutive
    terms these people can serve.  After an abscense they could run again. 
    I think we have seen with the DCU president that a long stay by the
    same people may NOT be a good thing.  Influxes of new ideas and energy
    should be encouraged by the system.  Instead it seems life-long
    positions have been created.
    

I'm pretty sure the elections are required by law.

    
    RE: .34
    
    Yes, I'm sure they are.  That section of my reply was pure sarcasm,
    although not far from reality IMO.
    
    The real suggestion was in the second paragraph.  I wonder if limiting
    the terms is possible?  And if it is, how it could go about being done. 
    Would it require the gathering of x% of signatures to get it on the
    ballot, just like non-board-approved candidates for the BOD?  Surely,
    this type of question won't be proposed by a current board member.
    

    Re: <last few>
    
>   The real suggestion was in the second paragraph.  I wonder if limiting
>   the terms is possible?  And if it is, how it could go about being done. 
>   Would it require the gathering of x% of signatures to get it on the
>   ballot, just like non-board-approved candidates for the BOD?  Surely,
>   this type of question won't be proposed by a current board member.
    
    The DCU Annual Meeting and the election rules are spelled out in the
    Bylaws (which have had a number of amendments in this area).  According
    to Article XXI, Section 1 of the DCU Bylaws:
    
       "Amendments of these bylaws may be adopted and amendments of the
    	charter requested by the affirmative vote of two-thirds of the
    	authorized number of members of the board at any duly held meeting
    	thereof if the members of the board have been given prior written
    	notice of said meeting and the notice has contained a copy of the
    	proposed amendment or amendments.  No amendment of these bylaws or
    	of the charter shall become effective, however, until approved in
    	writing by the NCUA Board."
    
    Offhand, I'd say the deck is stacked against us "outsiders".

    
    RE: .36
    
    Thanks for that bit of info.  These types of things usually are heavily
    in favor of the status quo.  It will be a cold day in h___ before the
    BOD limits their own term.  I wonder if it would be possible to get a
    question put on next year's "election" ballot?  I would think the BOD
    might have a minor conflict of interest in deciding an issue like this.
    Then again, they could surprise us.

I worked for a Credit Union for 9 years and a Credit Union OEM for five years
before coming to DEC.  In all of the Credit Unions I have seen the incumbents
are always re-elected.  Sometimes it is because they are good people who have
helped the membership and deserve to be re-elected.  However, most times it is
because (as in most elections) very few people actually vote.  Therefore,
incumbents only need the votes of a few supporters and the Credit Union
Employees and their families who vote for the incumbents to save there jobs.  I
have seen incumbents re-elected days before the NCUA closed the Credit Union
because of insolvency!  

John  

    Does the Credit Union provide liability insurance for the directors?
    
    Many corporations seem to provide liability insurance to their
    directors that protects their assets in case of a law suit. If the DCU
    does not one might think twice (or more times) before becomming a
    director.
    
                           Tom
    

    FYI.....I have run for the DCU board 3 time...each time I have come in 
    one position behind the incumbents.  I will continue run in future 
    years!
    
    My basis for running will continue to be because I think I can bring 
    new ideas to the DCU and that I can represent the membership.
    
    As always, I congratulate the winners of the election and look forward 
    to the next election.
    
    One other point.....if I ever do get elected....I will not serve more 
    than two consecutive terms!
    
    
    

        Here are the 1991 election results. I got them from Mary Madden
        earlier this week:
        
        Mark Steinkrauss	6830	incumbant re-elected
        Charlene O'Brien	5160	incumbant re-elected
        
        Richard Luciano		4406	challenger not elected
        Theo Campbell		1832	challenger not elected
        Leo Quinn		1133	challenger not elected
        
        This represents a total of 9681 ballots cast. 62% of the votes
        cast were for the two incumbants. Last time this number was well
        under 50%, with both incumbants re-elected. 
        
        I can only conclude from this that the majority of DCU members
        don't care that the DCU is being run into the ground. I find it
        most convenient that the current scandal was kept under wraps
        until after the election was over with, even thou it was known
        earlier.

    I agree they should step down, and have a new election, if they win
    again,so be it.  With all the controversey swirling around, they
    should do this TODAY!!!!!

 	In Note 8.41  POBOX::KAPLOW  states:
            
    >     I can only conclude from this that the majority of DCU members
    >   don't care that the DCU is being run into the ground. I find it
    >   most convenient that the current scandal was kept under wraps
    >   until after the election was over with, even thou it was known
    >   earlier.
    
    
    	I too am upset and concerned about the current events relating
    	to the DCU, its former president and BoD's performance, as I'm
    	sure are most members who are aware of the situation.
    
    	However your statements re: 'keeping the scandal under warps prior
    	to an election' are pure specualtion on your part, unless you can
    	support them.  Making such assertion in this semi-public forum
    	could be percieved as libelous and/or slanderous.  Statements such
    	as these place the existence of this and other employee-interest
    	Notes conferences at risk.	
    	
    	Even under normal conditions, the expression of a great deal of
    	emotion can be found in this notes conference.  These latest events
    	have raised the level of emotional content to a new level.
    
    	I believe it is in our and this Notes conference's best interest
    	to stick to the facts and if we must express our speculations,
    	identify them as such.
    
    
    	Jim

re .43:

Let's use language precisely here.  It is a matter of judgement that this
situation is a scandal.  It would be speculation if one were to say that
the BoD *deliberately* kept it under wraps until after the election to
their own advantage in the election.  HOWEVER, it is *not* a matter of
speculation to say that it *was* kept under wraps, unless one wishes to 
assert that the BoD fired the DCU president before they found out about 
the loan scandal.  Assuming that the BoD fired him for cause, they knew 
what the cause was, but they didn't tell us & still haven't.  So they
did keep it under wraps.  They may have had good reasons to do so, but
they did so.  And does anyone care to argue that it was not, in fact, 
convenient to them that the facts did not come out until after the election?  

Lots of people have tossed around the terms "libel" and "slander" in 
this notes conference.  From my understanding, a written statement is 
only libel if it is a) untrue, and b) uttered maliciously.  I don't see
how either one applies to Mr. Kaplow's memo.  I only wish everyone's
messages stated their concerns as clearly.

	Enjoy,
	Larry Seiler

    Re:  last few
    Fascinating.....
    how many credits towards a Doctor of Jurisprudence degree do I get for
    following this conference?    
    \Gary
    
    PS:  Reply .43 talks about Digital policy, not "the law".  Re-read it.
    Believe it.  We have an unbelievably patient moderator.  Let's not push
    our luck.

         I will be out from 6/28/91 to 7/8/91 exclusive. The batch
         extraction process will continue.
    
         Please remember that your extracted notes or replies won't be sent
         to DCU until after 7/8/91 (nor will DCU "official" responses be
         posted).

         Carl                                        
         Notes file extractor (and not the moderator),

    
    Jee whiz, its been QUITE a long discussion concerning a branch/ATM
    
    I wish they would get their act together. Its their loss!!!!
    
    
    

    There are 3 buildings of people in Santa Clara, another in San Fransisco, 
    another in Cupertino, three more in Mountain View and Palo Alto and I'm
    sure there are offices locally I've yet to discover. Further, The bay area 
    (aka Silicon Valley) hosts many events that draw visiting DEC people 
    throughout the year (Xhibition, Interop91 ect...). 
    
    A DCU branch is needed here or DEC ought to consider a more equitable 
    credit union. 
    
    When last back East, I asked who to contact in this regard and was 
    given this name: 
    
    Anne Connell    Director of DCU Branch Administration
    
    508-493-6735    ext. 203
    dtn-223-6735    ext. 203
    
    

       Hey, it's only been 4 years give em time!
                                      Denny  ;^)
    
    

         I will be out from 8/9/91 to 8/26/91 exclusive. The batch
         extraction process will continue.
    
         Please remember that your extracted notes or replies won't be sent
         to DCU until after 8/26/91 (nor will DCU "official" responses be
         posted).

         Carl                                        
         Notes file extractor (and not the moderator),

Just to let you all know;
    A special extraction containing the stripped topic replies since the
    last regular extraction and those entered today before 3:00 PM was
    forwarded to DCU. (See note 2.0 for normal extraction information).
    
Carl Leeber
Batched Notes Extractor

    
    Isn't there anybody else in the entire noting community that can keep
    the flow of "information" going?
    

RE: <<< Note 2.70 by CSC32::B_HARRISON "Bruce Harrison" >>>

Bruce;

I have been doing this as my "hobbie" since April 1987 (Note 2.9 or so).
I have looked for someone to help out but... 

In past years "...the flow of "information" ..." was never this important that
a week or so of my absence was not a big deal. I suggest that the moderator might
be a willing volunteer on this specific topic, but I don't what to speak for
someone else.

Mark Steinkraus of DCU board receives the extractions directly. The DCU receives
stripped versions (see earlier replies to this note (2.0)). Mr. Steinkraus will
be receiving all extractions during the two weeks I'm gone. Only the DCU version
and posting of official DCU reponses stops while I'm out.

Carl

Just the extractor NOT the moderator!

Hi folks;

I need your help! As in HHHHEEELLLPPPPP!!!!!

As extractor of these notes and poster of the replies, the current increase
in communication has been staggering! Since Digital pays me to do a job,
THAT COMES FIRST. The result is that the clean-up of these extractions
(remove node and employee name) has resulted in delays in information being
sent to DCU.

YOU CAN HELP!

PLEASE try NOT to include Digital or DCU employee names in your text
discussion if you can help it. Some times initials will do. Sometimes the
name is important and must be included for it to have meaning to the
Digital employees that read this conference. However, this type of entry
is the hardest to find and remove or convert to initials.

The notes entry and reply headers themselves are fairly standard and these
can be removed with minimal effort (an LSE macro does the trick nicely).
Next difficult, is the author's "signature" at the end of the entry or
reply, this can be handled using a combination of editor macros and minimal
human input. The imbedded names are murder!

Use them when you must... but using them often as a matter of author
convience slows down extractions. I do NOT what to cramp anyone's noting
style, but IF you can have a little mercy on this humble extractor, it will
help make the noters input to DCU happen in a more timely manner!

Thanks,

Carl

Just the extractor NOT the moderator!

    
    Replies posted after 2.72 related to DCU/BOD access to this conference
    or the discussion on extractions have been moved to a dedicated note 
    288.*
    
    This note was being used for extraction announcements and would like to
    seperate that from the topic that spawned as a result of 2.72
    
    Nisreen
    

    
    Due to recent events I have asked Carl Leeber (Notes Extractor) to
    discontinue extractions of notes from the conference. The extractions
    were stripped, edited and sent to DCU to respond to the issues, and
    Carl in turn posted them in the conference under the appropriate note.
    
    Just to avoid starting a big discussion on this, the reason for my
    decision is that I do not feel that the process is serving the purpose
    it was intended for, and therefore I do not see the need to continue
    it.
    
    All DEC employees have access to this conference, including the BOD.
    However everyone is restricted (corporate policy) against passing on
    information/notes from this conference to DCU or anyone else outside
    the company. 
    
    Regards,
    
    Nisreen Sunnaa
    Moderator
    
    
    

    Tom, DCU is a not-for-profit organisation. If it is, lets get the IRS
    here fast. It should not be "competitive" just much better than
    for-profit orgs. You have just confirmed that DCU is not a CREDIT
    UNION. DCU has misplaced the trust of Digital which intended to offer
    its employees a credit union as one more benefit.
    
    Francis.

                                                               
    I also am a DCU original member.  I welcomed the idea of being able
    to utilize a safe repository for my modest savings.  Certainly, a
    primary impetus to join an employee credit union was the notion that  
    loans and other "banking" services would be offered to the employees
    at rates *below* those of regular commercial institutions.  I cannot
    honestly say that I have ever seen that original notion realized.
    I sincerely hope that the new BOD will take the necessary steps to
    help restore some of those original goals and ideals.
    
    This credit union, for whatever reasons, lost sight of its real
    responsibility.  It had better get its myopia corrected fast.
    
    
    /Mike

I think that it is time to ask the DEFCU to re-look the way it does business.
While it is obvious that the industry is in some turmoil there should be some 
priority changes.

Most of the sources of income and costs of doing businees are very similar 
between a C.U. and a Bank.  You have to borrow low and loan higher to be able to
cover your expenses of personnel, buildings etc.  Banks also have the 
responsibility to make a profit for the shareholders.  If the C.U. is 
properly managed by the BOD and the Management staff the "profit" should be 
returned to the members in the forms of lower loan rates and higher interest 
rates on deposits.

We should expect to see some open communications of how this new board will
achieve their goals and what those goals are and what the time-table is for 
doing so.  

A good mix of candidates has been selected by the members to represent us and 
they have the obligation and responsibility to meet the trust that we have 
placed in them.  

I am willing to hang around a little longer but I want to see and ACTION PLAN
of what is being done to fix the problems around communication and around the
competitiveness of the DCU.

The campaign is over - the results are in - now it is time to deliver on the
campaign promises.

Good Luck but quickly

    A survey of those who left DCU might be somewhat revealing.  I
    don't know how much time and energy should be put into something
    like this, but it might prove to be valuable information.
    
    I'm sure the survey would point out less attractive interest rates
    in savings and less attractive loan rates could be the major reason,
    but it may also point out other reasons.
    
    I would sure like to see the DCU become MORE than competitive in these
    rates.  I mean, isn't that what a credit union is all about?
    
    Don

>	I cannot honestly say that I have ever seen that original 
>	notion realized.

	I seem to recall that in the early '80s (83?,84?), DEFCU was pretty
	competitive. But since then, I agree.

					Tom_K

Re: .17

I was thinking about this yesterday when I saw the financial statement from
Ms Shapiro.  Imagine, if you will, what our equity, profitability, loan
divident rebates, savings dividend bonuses, and Visa card interest rates would
be today if the whole Mangone thing had not occurred.

It has set us back more than 10 years.

We are a credit union with two broken legs.  But the good news is, our
crutches, ordered in November, arrived yesterday.

Elaine

> We are a credit union with two broken legs.  But the good news is, our
> crutches, ordered in November, arrived yesterday.

An absolutely *great* characterization.  I love it.....

Still chuckling,
./chris

    I would ask everyone to think about a simple statement:

    'There is no such thing as a simple fix'

    It will take time.  We need to store up reserves, hopefully in a slow
    but consistent manner.  It will take us a couple years to get to a
    point where we have the excellent rates that are needed.

    My *GUESS* is a couple years to recover fairly well.  The next year
    will be swabbing the deck, keeping the boat headed straight and keeping
    away from storms.

    I do not expect the instant low rates.  In time - YES.  Work needs to
    be done and we have the people to do it.

    I do want Phil to keep looking around for problems, so we can put some
    insecticide on them ASAP.  Paul can use the broom on the cob webs.

    This is an exciting time in DCU's life.  The 'REAL QUALIFIED
    CANDIDATES' have been chosen by the membership. We have the most
    'QUALIFIED BOD' possible.  This is the REAL thing!!!
    
  	- mark

    A note a while back mentioned checking with those that left.  More than
    that, I think that the folks that left should be included in surveys
    and courted by DCU.  Sure, they can't be expected to come back
    immediately.  But, they NEED TO KNOW that DCU wants them back and will
    try its best to serve their needs as THEIR credit union.  It will take
    time, but this is necessary for DCU to survive in the long run.  This
    experience might also help Digital learn a few things too, I suppose ...
    
    Steve

	Let me offer the perspective of someone who left.  I was, until late
last fall, saving for a house.  Until last August, when the infamous choices
brouchure came out, I had all my banking business with DCU.  The day I recieved
the choices brochure, I took a vacation day and went shopping for a bank.  Note
that had that been my only issue with DCU, I probably wouldn't have left until
I found out some of the stuff that came along later.  While I liked the
convienience of DCU, and the ZKO branch staff were great, there were problems
with DCU.  My dealings with people in headquaters had been very unsatisfactory
(see my reply to the note about ATM cards and P.O. Boxes).  The savings and
loan rates were no longer competitive, and they were no longer pay interest
on share draft accounts with less than $1000.  Still, they were in the building
I worked.

	Last August, I moved a five figure amount out of my DCU accounts, into
a local bank.  I now get better savings rates, have better loan rates available
(at least before DCU lowered them recently---haven't checked since then), have
NO foreign ATM fees, and a banker that seems to care about my business, even
though there's a lot less money in the accounts now that I've bought a house.
Oh, and interest is paid to my accounts monthly, rather than quaterly.  Last
week, I went in to talk to my banker about a problem with my statement.  She
fixed it immediately, and then asked me about something we had discussed the
last time I was in---in January!  The fact that she remembered our last
conversation, three months ago, convinced me (maybe I'm gullable) that my
business is appreciated there.

	I was planning, had this election gone otherwise, to pull the rest of
my business (car loan and Visa card) from DCU.  Seeing the makeup of the new
board makes me hopeful, and I'll continue to watch DCU.  To be honest,
however, it's going to take a lot to tempt me back from my new bank.  In
DCU's favour is the fact that I'm hoping that they can do it.

Mark

re:  last 

Many folks pulled money out of DCU as much out of protest as out
of fear for the solvency (or lack thereof) of DCU when "all this"
began over a a year ago.  I know that my fiance and I pulled a
rather large hunk out as much out of frustration with DCU as with
anything else. I hope that people who removed money out of protest
will now repatriate their money and entrust the new board to 
handle it with proper diligence. 

Other people, as Mark wrote in the last note, pulled out money
and went elsewhere because they got a better deal.  It's going to be
hard for DCU to win these folks back, but I have faith that over the
long haul, the "new DCU" *will* be able to win your business back.

Caveat:  It took a long time for things to get bad enough to see
the light of day.  It took a long time to effect a change in DCU.
It will take your new board a long time to get all their work done.
Please be patient....

./chris

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask or not, but...

Mark, in reply .22, said that his new bank has no foreign ATM fees.  Which side
of the network makes these decisions?  I have an account at Baybank, and one
at DCU, and I need to pay a fee to take Baybank money out at the DCU ATM, and
a fee to take DCU money out at the Baybank ATM (both Cirrus network ATM's).  If
DCU were to remove "their" fee, which transaction would it affect?  Or am I
asking the "wrong" question?

Jill

Re: .23

	I think you missed the point, Chris.  I left, not because I got a better
deal, but because I was frustrated.  I now realise that I have a better deal,
so I'm inclined to stay where I am.  This will be the case until where I am
frustrates me enough that I'll look elsewhere, or DCU convinces that it's now
a better deal.

Re: .24

	The foreign ATM fee is levied by the financial institution that issues
your ATM card.  In your example, if DCU were to remove their foreign ATM fee,
your could take money out of your DCU account at a BayBank ATM with no fee.

	I currently use my new bank's ATM card to take money out of my bank
account from a DCU ATM without paying a fee.

Mark

I think the question's more relevant to how the bank in question wants to cover
its expenses.

Without knowing for sure, I'd speculate that if any bank wants to use another
bank's ATM network, then that other bank is going to charge for use of its
network.  After all, the maintenance and operation of an ATM network ain't for
free, and a bank gets very little value added by letting some other bank make
use of its network.

Therefore, whatever bank you sign up with is going to have to pay in some way
or another for you to be able to do transactions on someone else's ATM network.
The question is, do they bill you directly (such as DCU does), or do they hide
the expense behind some other fee, or lower interest rates, etc?

Oh, one other data point about ATM cards:

I was out in the middle of East Armpit, Maine a couple months ago, and found an
ATM for an emergency cash infusion.  After I'd setup the transaction, I got
a screen informing me that I'd be socked a service charge of $1.00, since I
was using a card foreign to that Bank.

"I knew that", I figured.  Wasn't until I got back to the car that I realized 
that they meant that it was a buck in addition to whatever my bank was going
to do to me.  Therefore, $80.00 for me, $1 for East Armpit Savings and Loan,
and $1 for DCU.

There's no point here, other than "it can happen".

The way it was explained to me, the issuer of each bank card makes a
contract with the people who run each bank machine network to let their
cards be used on the network.  I believe the terms are mostly or entirely
a flat fee.  So the bank that issues your card pays for your ability to
use it remotely, but doesn't pay per transaction.  I suspect that most
banks deliberately set the transaction fees to make money on them -- it is 
a service, after all, that costs them more than if you use their own machines.

Should the DCU charge transaction fees?  On the one hand, it is a service
that costs the DCU money.  But on the other hand, those fees have always
caused me to keep part of my money in a bank (first BayBank and then People's) 
so that my wife can withdraw money without a transaction fee -- there are
no DCU branches on her normal rounds.  If the DCU hadn't had transaction
fees, then I would probably have stuffed all my money into the DCU when I
closed out my BayBank accounts, instead of opening accounts at People's.
If many others do the same thing, then it isn't obvious to me whether the
DCU makes money from its transaction charges.  Encouraging people to use
two vendors doesn't sound like good strategy.

It's an interesting question for those who manage DCU to consider, but I
would assume that they'll keep the transaction charges for now.  However,
once some of the short term problems are resolved, I think they should
consider whether transaction charges are really helping the DCU.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I just recieved a $4000 personnal loan from the Rockland Credit Union
     at 11.9% intrest rate. No co-signer No collateral just my signature
    and my track record of paying back past loans to other insitutions.
    
    Last summer I applyed for a $1000 personnel loan at 16+% at "MY" DCU
    which got turned down.  I hope the new board will look into what
    consitutes a real risk at defaulting loans.
    
    Bill 

Note 667 (Mangone trial) was consolidated with 665 (Mangone trial)

Bob