Conference 7.286::dcu

Cindy,

I hate to ask, but have you read all the notes over the last couple months
after the fees were announced.  If you haven't, please do so.

Do a SET SEEN/BEFORE=1-SEP-1993:00:00

then read all the notes by the Keypa=d "Enter" key .. to skip a whole note
as opposed to a reply kit the Keypad comma key.

When you've done that, I think you'll find your question answered.

Stuart

    Re .0
    
    Don't leave in disgust. Remember you are a part owner. In the early
    part of next year 3 positions on the DCU board of directors come up for
    election. That election will give you an opportunity to express your
    opinion on the new "Relationship Banking" (but I thought I joined a
    Credit Union, not a Bank). Assuming that the majority of the membership
    that votes also agree with you expect to see "Relationship Banking"
    as a footnote in DCU history.
    
    Keeping a $5 savings account in order to vote will not cost you
    anything. No fees are imposed on the primary savings account.
    
    Dave

    Well, I decided to stay with the DCU for the reason that Dave
    suggested. I did rework my savings accounts so now I only have 2
    savings accts and no holiday acct. 
    So let the show begin. I want to vote in people who will keep our DCU
    a true credit union.
    		Cindy
    

    Re .-1
    
    Good idea. I encourage you and anyone else to spread the word to do
    this.
    
    Let's admit it folks the DCU is pretty convenient for a lot of people.
    It would be a shame to have to lose that convenience due to ill thought out
    strategic direction. Since we are the owners we can change it if we
    want to. But that'll only happen if people don't just close their
    savings accounts in disgust.
    
    Dave

    
    
    I am closing my accounts at DCU in about 1/2 hour, after finding out 
    how much $$$ I got charged for fees on accounts that doesn't meet their
    criteria (minimum balance) inspite of the fact that between my husband
    and I we have 2 checking accounts, a visa card, a car loan..and was 
    considering a mortgage with DCU..
    
    I might as well go put my money somewhere where I don't have illusions 
    about what I am getting.
    
    All the accounts will be closed, visa card and all..and a mortgage with 
    DCU..? I don't think so.
    
    Nisreen
    (pretty pi**ed off)

Nisreen,

Please keep $5 on deposit so you can vote.  Remember that the ballot can have 
more enduring results than feet.

I remember whne you started this conference and your presence at the special
meeting.  It would be a shame for DCU to completely lose you.

BobW

    Don't forget, if you take out that mortgage with the DCU, you won't
    have any fees.

    >          <<< Note 721.8 by 38346::MACNEAL "ruck `n' roll" >>>
    >
    >Don't forget, if you take out that mortgage with the DCU, you won't
    >have any fees.
    
    Oh Good Grief!  Don't you get it ?  That is NOT the point!
    
    The fact is that here is yet another member who would have represented
    good business to DCU that has been turned off by these fees and
    how they were arrived at and the possible implications for the future.
    If the current definition of the relationship doesn't net the kind
    of results wanted, when will Cockburn want to tighten the
    "relationship" and then that mortgage won't be enough to no pay
    fees ???
    
    Any organisation that makes doing business with them more complex
    than it need be is going to turn away business.  This is yet another
    example.
    
    Stuart
    Stuart

Let's separate some things here, if we can:

Fees are an "artifact of implementation," if you'll let me borrow
a term from software engineering.  The real issue, the issue that
people should really be concerned about is the policy shift away
from a known, working business model that by-and-large satisfied
a majority of the membership to a business model that seems to
really bother people.

If DCU were in a state of crisis, with a high probability of breakdown
or failure on the near horizon, then it might be appropriate to
experiment with new business models.  The risk of trying something
radically different would be, in that case, lower than the risk
of doing nothing.  However, DCU isn't in that state - what we had 
worked.   A simple read of the Annual Report and accompanying
financials and notes bear that out.  The Annual Report contained
glowing talk about record income, and another successful year
at DCU.  Again I'm forced to ask, in my best backwoods drawl,
"well, if it ain't broke, why fix it?"

The Board, in implementing Relationship Banking, gave mangagement
a broad mandate to assess fees, and to change them as management
sees fit.  So, while there are all kinds of loopholes that let
many of us worm out of the fee structure (like direct depositing
our paychecks), there is no guarentee that all that will not
change to be much more stringent as management seeks to root
out the "credit union abusers."

In implementing Relationship Banking, DCU has also sought to
place the largest burdens on those least able to afford it.
Common sense says that most high-dollar customers, who are 
capable of carrying large loan balances, or who are able to put 
large amounts of cash into savings, most likely have more money
than somebody who needs to routinely draw down their balances.
It stands then to reason that somebody who needs to keep their
account balances low in order to pay the bills and put food
on the table will pay more for the right to be a customer than
somebody who is busy saving for their next Porsche.  When you
combine this with recent talk in the Board meeting minutes
about "DCU's upscale market," one begins to wonder whether
we're talking about a credit union designed to serve members
regardless of who they are, or a country club seeking 
members who fall into a particular profile.

The business model that DCU used before Relationship Banking
was a good, sound, model.   The facts which back that up
are present in the balance sheet.  One needs only to read
it to see that DCU is in good shape.  

DCU can work within the framework of that business model to
further improve the credit union.  We still have a large
base of individuals and families who fall into the field
of membership but who are not members.  We need to seek
these people out and get their business into DCU.   Rather
than focusing on driving out members, and implementing
policies designed to make certain members feel unwelcome,
DCU should be aggressively pursuing new members, and working
to encourage additional business from existing members.

So, as you prepare to vote in this election, don't just think
about what a pain fees are, consider also how you feel about
the issue of Relationship Banking.

Chris

    
    .11 is *EXACTLY* what this election is all about.  Please address this
    person's points Mr. MacNeal.  There is nothing hypothetical here.  Just
    a real person, with real facts and real problems.
    

    Yup, it goes to show that there are alternatives and that no credit
    union can meet the needs of everyone.  That credit union may offer a
    fee free relationship, but I doubt that I am in its field of membership
    or that they have a branch within walking distance of my office.
    
    Now that I've addressed those points I hope you'll start addressing
    some of mine.

>    Actually Stuart I do get it.  I just hope that the anti-fee hysteria
>    doesn't drive someone to cut off their nose to spite their face.  There
>    is some healthy questioning of the benchmarks DCU has chosen to gauge
>    themselves against.  If this person takes his business elsewhere I hope
>    he comes back in here and posts information on the institution he chose
>    to do business with.  I for one would like to see how it stacks up
>    against DCU.
>    
> If DCU were in a state of crisis, with a high probability of breakdown
> or failure on the near horizon, then it might be appropriate to
> experiment with new business models.  The risk of trying something
> radically different would be, in that case, lower than the risk
> of doing nothing.  However, DCU isn't in that state - what we had 
> worked.   A simple read of the Annual Report and accompanying
> financials and notes bear that out.  
>    
>    Read the financials from Digital or IBM from 10 years ago.  You could
>    have reached the same conclusions.  If you do get elected I hope you
>    keep an open mind and don't simply stick with a "if it ain't broke,
>    don't fix it" philosophy.
 
Except that in the case of IBM and Digital, a process of reviewing
the financials on a quarterly or annual basis would have revealed
steady errosion of various of the Company's fundamentals.   Sure, if
you read one report, you could draw a poor conclusion.  But if you
review the reports from DCU for the past few years, you'll see a
set of steadily improving fundamentals.

   
> The Board, in implementing Relationship Banking, gave mangagement
> a broad mandate to assess fees, and to change them as management
> sees fit.  
>    
>    And an apple fell on Chicken Little's head which meant the sky was
>    falling.

Go look at what happened.  It's a fact that the Board did give
management the power to structure fees in a manner deemed suitable
by management.  That's not a children's story, that's reality.
    
> It stands then to reason that somebody who needs to keep their
> account balances low in order to pay the bills and put food
> on the table will pay more for the right to be a customer than
> somebody who is busy saving for their next Porsche.  
> 
>    Is this a DCU election or a government election?  This sounds like
>    something out of the last Democrat vs. Republican election.

No, this isn't a political issue at all.  This isn't a "family values"
versus "No more nukes" kinda liberal against conservative thing.
The facts are that the structure of Relationship Banking as presently
constituted rewards folks who can save more money, and punishes folks
who maintain low balances.   That means the potential exists for
people to be pushed out of the credit union because they cannot
afford to stay in.

Chris

    
    Huh?  DCU *WAS* meeting this persons needs.  DCU *IS* capable of
    meeting this person's needs.  What happened here?  Why did it happen? 
    Did it HAVE to happen?  A vital part of DCU's mission statement is
    to meet the financial needs of the membership.  Why have we failed this
    member.  Was it their fault?  Were they expecting too much?  Or are we
    asking too much?
    

	What's my reward for having over $20K in DCU?  That I don't get charged
fees that I wasn't getting charged previously?  Someone's got the carrot and
stick mixed up.  That's not a reward - that's a lack of punishment and they
are not the same thing.

	I'm seriously considering walking with my funds, but I will at least
stick out the next election.

						--Doug

    
    Re: .13
    
    > .11 is *EXACTLY* what this election is all about.
    
    Yes, and when you read it very carefully, it becomes clear that
    the fees etc. are not the real reason she is leaving.  She is leaving
    because the insult of the fees has pissed her off for the last time.
    Those are the customers you almost never get back.
    
    Steve
    

    
    I used to think that members can change things, but I have reached the
    conclusion that you can't, and all this is a waste of energy that can
    be put to good use.
    
    I will leave my $5.00 dollars in, but it still gets me that one account
    that I have gets charged 4 dollars for having it, when the only reason
    I had it was because DCU insisted on transfer payment to
    my loan except from that account. so I left it there with enough money
    going into it for that transfer..and I GOT TO PAY FOR IT TOO..!!!!
    
    When I called DCU this morning to inquire about it, and told them I was
    going to close my accounts, would you like to know what I was told?
    "I could close your accounts for you now over the phone if you'd
    like".!!! 
    
    What a service..!! 
              
    Vote with your feet people - leave the $5.00 dollars if you must, but
    find another BANK..
    
    Nisreen
    (still fuming)
                                                                       

RE: Note 721.20 by BEIRUT::SUNNAA

>    Vote with your feet people - leave the $5.00 dollars if you must, but
>    find another BANK..

I am getting a new vehicle soon.  I can get 6.65% from DCU or 7.00% from
USAA.  I will be going to USAA because of their quick and friendly
service.  No hassle, easy to work with.  It is not worth the hassle to
work with DCU...

(NOTE: I have had some excellent service from the local ZKO people. 
Problem is when I take the local people positives and the rest of DCU's
negatives, it is not worth the hassle...)

	- mark

>================================================================================
>Note 721.12           frustration with new monthly fees....             12 of 13
>38346::MACNEAL "ruck `n' roll"                       37 lines   4-FEB-1994 15:06
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    Actually Stuart I do get it.  I just hope that the anti-fee hysteria
>    doesn't drive someone to cut off their nose to spite their face.  There
>    is some healthy questioning of the benchmarks DCU has chosen to gauge
>    themselves against.  If this person takes his business elsewhere I hope
>    he comes back in here and posts information on the institution he chose
>    to do business with.  I for one would like to see how it stacks up
>    against DCU.

It isn't anti-fee hysteria.  It is healthy business sense.  And, I do really
want to thank the DCU for encouraging me to shop around.  I'm better off for it
and the DCU will have to work really hard to regain my business and my trust.

The bulk of my business is with a credit union that has a $100 minimum balance
to get you free everything, with the exception of check reorders.  That
includes a Visa card that charges slightly less interest than the DCU and a
Master Card at 8.9%.

The two commercial banks I do business with give me free checking, savings
accounts, kids accounts, and money market with no minimum deposit or automatic
deposit requirements.  One of these banks also gave me a very large personal
line of credit and transfered the balance of a high rate Visa card to their
no-fee Prime+3.9 card.  The LOC and Visa rates are well below what the dCU
charges.  Credit approval for the VISA card took 47 hours and was confirmed on
the telephone.

My other money market account (in addition to the one above) is also no-fee,
managed by my discount stock broker.

In other words (to paraphrase another noter here), I will not be beaten with
the Relationship carrot.

>                          I for one would like to see how it stacks up
>    against DCU.

Very well, thank you.  Aside from rates comparable or better than the dCU can
offer, the other credit union and the commercial banks are killing me with
kindness.  This is two fold -- they obviously want my business and the dCU is
getting a reputation of "Oh, Them!"

I'm being passionate about this because I feel played false by the dCU.

The following are my opinions:

First, I helped elect an anti-fee, "Real Choices" board which preached open
	communications and I feel let down.
Secondly, "Relationship BANKing" is counter to the philosophy of a Credit
	Union.
Thirdly, I feel that business is being extroted from me for the prerogative
	of not paying fees.
Fourth, the whole "Relationship Banking" PR strikes me as disingenuous.  The
	motive seems to build the Cap Ratio, not give me an incentive to
	do business with the dCU.
Fifth, the RB announcements were incredibly bungled, starting with the "Dear
	Valued Member' letters all the way to the "Holiday Club" debacle.
Sixth, the requirements for "Relationship" are exhorbitant and totally
	uncompetitive.
Seventh, the secrecy around the "RB" implementation was unacceptable.
Eighth, this is trying to retrench into profitability by corecing more business
	and driving off the less profitable members rather than trying to
	grow with better, more flexible arrangements.

If the dCU wants to be my financial institution of choice, the "Relationship"
approach is exactly backwards.  It is flattery with a hand reaching into my
pocket.  Money talks.

BobW
Voting Member-Owner

    Mark, I might be in the market for a new car soon.  What is this USAA
    and what are the hassles that DCU put you through for a new car loan?

    
    Caution!!!  Humor follows.  Or is it?
    
    
    
    RE: all you people finding better places
    
    I regret to inform you all that all of these places you have named are
    not on our competitors list and therefore do not exist.  Please
    restrict your search for other institutions to the predefined list of
    competitors.  Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.
    

    ok - in case anyone is looking for another credit union, 
    IC credit union in leominster offers free checking accounts with free
    checks first order. free ATM access - any ATM - 
   
    Visa at 13.5 no annual fee the first year..and 9.9% on transfer
    balances from other credit cards for the duration of those balances..
    20.00 dollars after the first year..
    
	        
    

The two banks (actually, conglomerates) are Norwest Banks and Colorado
National Banks.

Norwest is a holding company based in Minneapolis, which owns banks around
the country.  They also have a finance arm, a mortgage company, and some
form of brokerage services.  Norwest took over United Banks of Colorado
several years ago, but you can probably find a Norwest-owned bank in every
state.

Colorado National Banks is a subsidiary of First Banks.  I think that they
are technically located in South Dakota, but again, they are a multi-state
conglomerate.

BobW
=========

    
    .11 and .20 illustrate what I consider to be the "hassle them until
    they give up" strategy.  Those calling the shots know that everybody
    has better things to do with their time than expend time and money
    trying to fight them.  The result is that many people simply leave
    (leaving their equity behind) and in essense help fulfill the vision
    of becoming an "upscale" credit union.  Surely, those proposing and
    voting for "relationship banking" KNEW that not everybody was capable
    of meeting the relationship criteria and that it was likely that these
    people would leave rather than pay fees that they wouldn't have to pay
    at another CU or bank.
    
    Similarly, after the last long and tiring fight to remove fees, they
    also know that the re-imposition of fees will send a psychological message
    of 'you are powerless to stop us'.  Unfortunately, there are some
    people who will be lost to this also.  I fully understand it, but I wish
    it wouldn't happen.
    
    I have been going through this for 3 years now myself.  To say it is work
    is an understatement.  But what I have seen and heard over the last 3 years
    on both sides of the lines has reinforced that what we are trying to
    accomplish is worth the fight.  I have gotten MANY mail messages from
    DCU members offering words of encouragement and support.  Thank you for
    all of them.  I cannot recall a single message that has stated I am
    on the wrong track.  On the other side, I have gotten offers to resign.
    Thank you also for the offer!  It tells me I am on the right track and
    that there is some fear on their part of this effort succeeding.
    
    I have come to the conclusion that sooner or later you have to make
    stand and fight for what you think is right.  If you don't, you have no
    right to complain about how things are not what you want them to be. 
    If there are enough people who feel the same way, then you will
    succeed.  The last go around illustrated this.  Unfortunately, some
    people we worked to elect and voted for (myself included) did not live
    up to their words.  I learned a valueable lesson and I hope others did
    also; voting for people that won't discuss issues and or that seek to use
    evasive language is VERY DANGEROUS.  You never truly know where they
    stand on issues and will likely be very disappointed in the long run.
    
    So as I ask that people TRY AND HOLD ON through the upcoming election. 
    This is a MAJOR election and the results will make a BIG difference in
    the path DCU follows over the coming years.  That path will have a
    direct and significant impact on each members wallet.  You've already
    helped DCU rebuild its equity, please stay around to partake of all
    the benefits DCU can offer as a TRUE CREDIT UNION FOR ALL THE
    MEMBERSHIP.  

    
    .29
    
    > .11 and .20 illustrate what I consider to be the "hassle them until
    > they give up" strategy.  Those calling the shots know that everybody
    > has better things to do with their time than expend time and money
    > trying to fight them.  
    
    Well, Phil, if this is indeed their strategy they're in for a rude
    awakening.  If I *were* going to try this on a population, it sure
    as heck would not be on one that was already mad as hell for other
    reasons (TFSOs, etc).  
    
    > 'you are powerless to stop us'. 
    
    We'll see, won't we.
    
    > I have come to the conclusion that sooner or later you have to make
    > stand and fight for what you think is right.  If you don't, you have no
    > right to complain about how things are not what you want them to be. 
    > If there are enough people who feel the same way, then you will
    > succeed.  The last go around illustrated this.  Unfortunately, some
    > people we worked to elect and voted for (myself included) did not live
    > up to their words.  I learned a valueable lesson and I hope others did
    > also; voting for people that won't discuss issues and or that seek to use
    > evasive language is VERY DANGEROUS.  You never truly know where they
    > stand on issues and will likely be very disappointed in the long run.
    
    Since I will be a relationship member at least for another year or more
    (just took out a car loan), I don't stand to lose any money to fees.
    I *DO* stand to lose, however, my self-respect if I give in to an
    arrogant bunch who refuse to understand that the DCU is not their
    private fief to do with as they please.  They have pissed me off and
    that is where my energy comes from for this. 
    
    Steve
    

    RE: .24
    
    USAA is an Insurance Company whose membership comes from *ONLY*
    military officers (FBI, CIA and some other federal agencies) and their
    dependents (but is not funded or tied to the federal government -
    except that its presidents generally come from retired military
    officers).  If you are not an active officer or the dependent of one,
    then you cannot be a member of USAA (kinda starts to sound like a
    Credit Union that also offers insurance).
    
    As far as I'm concerned, being a USAA member (actually an associate
    member because I attained my membership because my Dad was an Air Force
    Officer), DCU could learn a great deal from USAA around customer
    service.
    
    ~Jon.

    
>    Seeing as how these aren't located in GMA, I can see how they might
>    have been overlooked during benchmarking.

DCU has offices in Colorado Springs.  Why shouldn't they be benchmarking 
against local competition?

Al

    Good question, Al.

    
    Re 29.
    
    Phil,
    
    I won't be paying fees on any of my accounts, and neither does 
    my husband (we do have credit cards, loans..etc - not for long I hope)
    but they did charge me on that one account (which I will be closing
    along with everything else), even though their incompetence is the 
    reason I had it in the first place (as I have explained in .20)..
    
    However, given that I don't feel ANYONE should be paying fees, and
    given the treatment that I got over the phone especially with the
    customer service reps anxious to help you close your account, along
    with the big difference you feel when you go to a bank and they're 
    so pleasant bending backwards to get your business, why should I stay 
    with DCU? There is absolutely no reason for me. I can get checking
    accounts with no fees outside (hell you can get your first batch of
    checks for free), you can get account with no ATM charges (using any
    ATM machines), you can get better credit card fees, and on top of that
    you can get pleasant people to deal with.
    
    I truly believe that DCU takes its member for granted, and the only way
    for make them change their attitude is to make them feel the pain. 
    
    I personally think that we have better chance of getting what we are
    looking for from a credit union/bank by pooling together as members and 
    contact another bank/credit union and work out some sort of package for
    ourselves, than we would have trying to work with DCU .
    
    If someone wants to start looking (collectively ) at other
    establishments count me in..
    
    Nisreen
    
    PS: I guess the weekend hasn't helped me get over it.

    >I truly believe that DCU takes its member for granted, and the only way
    >for make them change their attitude is to make them feel the pain. 
    
    Nisreen, the problem with this attitude is that it is NOT the DCU
    management and not the DCU employees and not (directly) the DCU Board
    of Directors who will feel any "pain".  Management and employees get
    paid anyway.  It doesn't impact the board as such. The only people
    you are impacting are yourselves and all the other DCU members.
    
    Given that there are members of the board who don't believe in
    listening to the membership, and management the same, the only way
    to change things is a "do it yourself" approach ... and that is by
    being active and letting the BoD and Management know, and by taking
    part in the upcoming elections.  We have 3 candidates standing who
    have made their positions extremely clear about how they expect to
    see the CU run.
    
    Remember that when you've gone to a bank, the only place the profits
    made by the bank are going to go is to the shareholders.  In a
    properly run credit union, those profits come back to you as better
    rates and dividends, because YOU are the shareholder.  I said "In a
    properly run credit union" ... DCU does not seem to fit that category
    at the moment.  I believe that every effort should be made to help
    elect candidates to the board who support these ends.
    
    You can make a positive difference in a CU by supporting candidates
    who you believe can make DCU the credit union you want, and actively
    campaigning for them.
    
    Voting with your feet is avoiding the issues.
    
    Stuart
    
    

RE: Note 721.32 by SMAUG::BELANGER

>-< USAA; on of the best service organizations I've dealt with!!! >-

Agreed and they are BIG DEC VAX/CLusters customer...

>    USAA is an Insurance Company whose membership comes from *ONLY*
>    military officers (FBI, CIA and some other federal agencies) and their
>    dependents (but is not funded or tied to the federal government -
>    except that its presidents generally come from retired military
>    officers).  If you are not an active officer or the dependent of one,
>    then you cannot be a member of USAA (kinda starts to sound like a
>    Credit Union that also offers insurance).

Actually, they are a bank ( non-profit or soemthing like that, maybe a
CU, even).  They have very good mutual funds, they have car insurance
and I think house insurance.

Anyone in NH can use their insurance and many of their other services.

For car insurance they have been rated #1 by Consumer Reports for the
last couple years, based on customer satisfaction, etc.

They have other services also.

It took me less than 10 minutes to get approved OVER THE PHONE for
$25,000.  I WAS *AMAZED*.  They are great!

	- mark

Phone numbers for some great credit cards:

USAA credit cards: (800)922-9092
Armed Forces Benefit Association (AFBA) (800)473-5252

	- mark

  I am not frustrated with monthly fees from the DCU. I will not accept them.
They've changed in a direction I don't wish to go......There is no benefit for
me to have my money in their bank (credit union?).

  It's time to take my business somewhere else because if I don't watch out 
 for me, who will?

  Voting, shmoting. Politics is bad enough at work. Why should I let it creep
 into the rest of my life?

   - Bob

From:	US1RMC::"Gransewicz@aol.com" 10-JUL-1994 11:11:21.00
To:	rowlet::Ainsley
CC:	
Subj:	NAFCU article on Fees


Bill & Bob,

Here is an article that recently appeared in a newsletter type
publication that I receive.  It appears that DCU members are not
the only ones concerned with credit union fees.   I hope people
find it interesting and informative.

Phil


[from NAFCU Update, page 2,  dated June 27, 1994
 NAFCU = National Association of Federal Credit Unions]

                                   Fees
                     Bank, CU practices noted in hearing


   Steps to curb fees for depository institution services were proposed
last week in a hearing of the House Banking Subcommittee on Consumer Credit
and Insurance.

   Panel Chairman Joseph P. Kennedy, D-Mass., in opening the hearing, said
he supports efforts to improve disclosure of depository institution fees,
including fees charged for ATM services.  He urged consumers to put pressure
on institutions to keep their fees down by shopping around for the best deal.
Also, he said lenders should be required to provide low-cost checking and
deposit, or "lifeline" accounts.

   During testimony, Chris Lewis, a representative of the Consumer Federation
of America (CFA), recommended that congress ban fees where no tangible
service is provided; require standard price disclosures of deposit services;
and require banking regulators to promote competition.

   While all depository fees were targetted in the hearing, there was a
showing of support by Lewis and at least one other witness for credit unions
as providing value to consumers.

   In a Q&A segment of the hearing, Rep. Maurice Hinchey, D-N.Y., asked
Lewis whether credit unions generally are a better deal for consumers than
banks; Lewis answered that credit unions do provide more value.  Also, Ed
Mierzwinski, a witness for the U.S. Public Interest Research Group, included
support for credit unions in his testimony.  "If you don't like your bank
fees, complain" he said.  "Cancel your bank accounts and switch to
member-owned credit unions."  If that is not possible, he recommended
moving to a smaller bank, since "a small bank will give you better service
than a large one."

   Despite the supportive comments, credit unions still took a lump or two
on the issue of fees last week.

   During the hearing, a Girl Scout testified about a credit union's
assessment of charges for a returned share draft that eventually exhausted
her small account balance.  Kennedy asked how the problem was resolved
and was told the credit union agreed to refund the charges that morning.

   Earlier, Kennedy had described deposit-item-returned fees as "nothing
more than a form of high-tech price gouging."

--- end of article ---




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% Date: Sun, 10 Jul 94 12:07:43 EDT
% Subject: NAFCU article on Fees

    re .43:  Earlier, Kennedy had described deposit-item-returned fees as
    "nothing more than a form of high-tech price gouging."
        
    
    For those DCU members who haven't bounced a check, note that the $15
    charge is *per bounce*.  When a check bounces, the DCU sends you a
    letter informing you of it, and on the third day tries the check again.
    The result, if you don't read the letter in time, is that the same check
    bounces *twice* and you are charged $30!  Presumably that number is
    multiplied by the number of checks that you bounce, though fortunately
    I've never bounced more than one at a time.  For a process that (so I
    once read) only costs the credit union a dollar or two, it's quite
    a case of fee inflation.
    
    	Larry

    
    
>>    re .43:  Earlier, Kennedy had described deposit-item-returned fees as
>>    "nothing more than a form of high-tech price gouging."
>        
>    
>    For those DCU members who haven't bounced a check...
    
    The Girl Scout in .43 was charged not because she bounced a check, but
    because she deposited a check that bounced on her!!!!
    (deposit-item-returned)
    
    JimH
    

re Note 721.44 by WRKSYS::SEILER:

>     For those DCU members who haven't bounced a check, note that the $15
>     charge is *per bounce*.  When a check bounces, the DCU sends you a
>     letter informing you of it, and on the third day tries the check again.
  
        It has always seemed to me that notification by letter in
        such cases is *totally* inappropriate when action must
        typically be taken in a day or two.

        I would be more willing to pay bounce/returned fees of the
        $15 range if the CU (or bank in general) attempted to notify
        you *quickly* -- this would today have to be by telephone.

        Bob

>     The Girl Scout in .43 was charged not because she bounced a check, but
>     because she deposited a check that bounced on her!!!!

	This is why it's a scam in general.  I have no problem with people
	being charged fees when one of their checks bounce, but an innocent
	party shouldn't be charged in addition!  It would be easy enough
	to have the bank that processed the check that bounced to charge
	the bouncers bank to recoup the labor.

	Oh well, someday .....

    re: .47
    
    Yep.  It's a big ripoff.  Just another way for greedy financial
    institutions to make a huge profit.
    
    Bob

re:      <<< Note 721.47 by NETRIX::michaud "Zip a di do da, zip pa de a" >>>

>	party shouldn't be charged in addition!  It would be easy enough
>	to have the bank that processed the check that bounced to charge
>	the bouncers bank to recoup the labor.

In this age of EFT, what labor would that be? This is a "penalty", not a
"cost".

-Jack

> In this age of EFT, what labor would that be?

	Well someone still has to handle the physical check, and I
	imagine the clearinghouses through which the EFT occurs
	probably charges a fee for their service?

> This is a "penalty", not a "cost".

	A penalty for accepting checks :-(  I hate checks anyways,
	I can't wait for the day when paper checks are something for
	the history books!

    As bad as bounced check fees are for the initiator and the 
    recipiant, what really p***** me off are the number of 
    institutions that charge a fee for cashing U.S. government 
    checks.  A bank I dealt with in Texas charged $3.00 for every
    government check they processed - every time I would go in and 
    present the case that the check was an obligation of the U.S. 
    government and the banks charter was backed by the U.S. 
    government (FDIC, etc.), they would back down and remove the 
    charge.  I HAVE NO FUNDS AT THIS INSTITUTION NOW - I left them 
    just as soon as te opportunity presented itself.
    
    Also, there is the issue of ATM charges - any number of credit 
    unions have programs which allow depositors fee free access to 
    funds from basically any ATM network.  These are CUs which should 
    have a higher cost structure and about the same revenues as DCU.
    
    The bottom line is that in banking (and in computers) it should
    be easy to be a user.  My personal feelings are that at DCU, it is 
    not!    

    	Given that I currently work for DEC, and can have portions of
    	my paycheck allocated to various family accounts to satisfy
    	DCU requirements to avoid fees (for instance I have $125/week
    	put into my wife's checking account so that I get the minimum
    	$500/month and avoid checking fees), what will happen when/if
    	I get laid off and go to another firm?  Sure, I can have my
    	paycheck direct-deposited, but it appears that I will have to
    	manually do the funds transfers that automatically get done
    	for me now because of the close working relationship between DEC
    	and DCU.