Conference 7.286::dcu

    This doesn't sound like an improvement for the customer. I know
    that I always likes to escrow account for my previous loans. With
    computers to track these accounts someone will have to explain the
    cost savings in all this to me. Many of us have money moved into
    several accounts automatically from our pay checks. What's the big
    added cost of the computer keeping separate "buckets?" And how much
    harder is it to take money from an escrow account as opposed to a
    checking account? 

    This clearly makes things harder for the customer. Which means there
    should be a very good reason for doing it. I wonder what it is?

    		Alfred

    	I got the same letter and I can't figure where their saving any
    money either.  All I see is a inconvience for me.  I can't wait for
    the outcome of the election.  As .0 said, THANKS DCU FOR MORE 'CHOICES'

    Joe

    So, as I am drining into work yesterday morning, I hear an ad for a
    bank, that does  mortgage payments every two weeks, rather than every
    month, this allows them to cut a 30 year mortgage down to 23 years, and
    save the individual thousands of dollars. I've seen this work
    elsewhere. It's a good idea. 
    
    SO why does the DCU take money out of my salary each week for my car
    loan, to put it into an escrow account. Why don't they post it directly
    to the loan account on a weekly basis. Surely, this marginally
    accellerated repayment will cut the overall cost of the loan, or don't
    they want to do such things...
    
    q
    

        YO!

        I am glad that there is a place to get alternative information about
DCU  operations.  But something is wacked - DCU make a nice change, and
everyone is still getting down on DCU.

        In the past:

        - Your pay is deposited in a DCU account.
        - Then, 25% of the car loan payment was moved to and escrow account.
        - Then, once a month, a payment was made on the loan.

        Problems:

        - $$$ is flying all over the place.
        - DCU has to create not one, but two different account (LOAN and ESCROW)
        - What about months with 5 weeks in them?  You still move $$$ to the
          escrow account, but then it gets moved to your savings account.
          Make sense. (???)

        Now:

        - Your pay is deposited in a DCU account.
        - Then, 25% of monthly car loan payment is used for loan

        Pros:

        - DCU saves $$$ by not moving $$$ so much.
        - LESS $$$ management
        - 5 week months work the same, to pay off your loan faster
        - 48 month loans are paid off in 44 months, with the same payments!

        There are broken things at DCU, but this change is not one of them.
Give it a break...

I got the letter and I didn't read anything about an additional statement (info 
on my loan was always on my normal statement anyway) and nothing about a 
checking account (I don't have one at DCU anyway).  To me, it doesn't appear 
that I should see any change besides the possible benefits DCU outlines 
(someone correct me if I'm missing something.

Anyway, you can decide for yourself, what follows is the text of the letter I 
was sent by DCU, type-os are mine:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[account info in header removed]

"WE ARE PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THAT EFFECTIVE MAY, 1992, YOUR WEEKLY
PAYROLL DEDUCTIONS WILL BE APPLIED DIRECTLY TO YOUR LOAN EVERY
WEEK - YOU'LL MAKE 52 PAYMENTS A YEAR!

This new process streamlines DCU's loan payment operations while
allowing you to pay off your loan faster, and decreasing the amount
of interest you pay.  For example, direct weekly loan payments on a
48 month loan can shorten the repayment period up to 4 months!

	***********CASH BILLING OPTION************

IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OUR NEW WEEKLY PAYMENT
PROGRAM, PLEASE RETURN THE CONFIRMATION BELOW NO LATWER THAN
APRIL 24, 1992.

If the confirmation is returned, your loan(s) will be converted to
cash billing and you will received a loan bill each month beginning 
with your June payment.

After your may payment, any payroll deductions previously deposited 
to your "escrow" share(s) 11 or 12 will be deposited to your share
1 (savings)."

[CONFIRMATION OF CASH BILLING attachment not included]

Scott

	RE: .7 That sounds a bit better then what I got out of .0. Since
	the same amount of money is being applied to the loan each week as
	was previously put in an escrow account there would not appear to
	be additional bookkeeping on the part of the borrower. Money is not
	going to be sitting anywhere that someone has to "watch" it. 

	I suspect that DCU will save some interest payments but that will be
	offset in that the borrower will pay less interest because of the 52
	payments. In short DCU's only savings are processing and audit costs.
	The borrower makes up for any earned interest lost by paying less on
	the loan.

			Alfred

	BTW, one can make monthly payments on a loan using the EASY TOUCH
	system or having a teller make a transfer payment. This is faster,
	easier and more reliable then mailing checks. And you save the cost
	of a stamp and envelope. :-)

On the face of it, based on what is written in .7, this
doesn't look like a bad deal necessarily.   Also looks 
to me like any interest payments missed will get washed in
the reduced paydown time.  And it's not clear to me that
the "auto-pilot" feature of weekly payroll deductions is
going away.

I like having my auto insurance pulled out weekly - I never
even think about it, except once a year when I get the bill
and go on Gillett's Annual Gripe About Car Insurance.  So,
I can understand why folks wouldn't want to lose auto-pilot
on loan payments.  But I don't see that going away.

Have I missed something here?  This seems like a better
deal for the consumer, and easier processing for DCU.  

./chris

    
    	Re: .11
    
    	I agree.  To me, this weekly payment deal looks better for both DCU
    and for the customer.  A long time ago, I had a car loan with DCU and
    I frankly _hated_ the silly loan escrowing account.  This new option
    looks like a much simplier way of dealing with the loan.
    
    							-craig

    I guess I have to disagree with .0.  I see this as heading in the
    right direction.  I didn't see where there would be an extra
    statement sent out by DCU unless the member decided to go the cash
    payment route.
    
    I'm going to give it a couple of months to better understand it, at
    which time the DCU and I will better know what the bugs are.
    
    Don

Re: .4  I called the DCU and interests on escrow account is the same as
        checking account. [I deleted .4]


The mathematics of interest and impact of varying payment periods and
compounding periods is complex but not rocket science.  The reference
use by most actuaries, banks and insurance companies is "The Theory of
Interest" by Stephen Kellison, second edition.  

Here are some interesting points.

Money on Deposit
----------------
1.  For a given APR interest rate, the more frequent the compounding,
    the more favorable it is to the depositor. [Note DCU has gone
    from daily to monthly compounding hence decreasing the effective
    interest rate.]


Repayment Schedule
------------------
2.  For a given APR on a loan, the more frequently the number of
    payments, the more favorable it is to the lender. Mathematically,
    banks and credit union make out better if you pay $100 monthly
    vs $1200 at the end of the year.

    [For auto loans, the DCU has in essence changed the payments
     from monthly to weekly hence increasing real effective
     interest rate. By federal law, the following must be stated:
	- the annual interest rate,
	- the APR.
     You NEVE SEE THE EFFECTIVE INTEREST rate stated for loans.

     Though the borrower will have a shorten repayment schedule as
     stated in the letter, they are paying a higher effective
     interest rate.]

     Even with this note, I would prefer the new way of weekly
     payments.

Gim

    
    
    
    First the base note has it wrong.  They simply immediately apply
    any weekly payroll deduction amount to the balance rather than
    deposit it in an escrow account and apply it once a month.  There's
    no additional statement unless you opt to pay it once a month by
    check.  If you go along with the new payment method it's all
    transparent.
    
    Re: .14
    
    This doesn't make sense.  Can you explain it further?  If you make
    more frequent payments the balance is reduced at a faster rate and
    you end up paying much less interest i.e. if you repay the same
    mortgage amount at the same rate biweekly rather than monthly you're
    finished quicker and pay less total interest.  In this case the
    principle should be the same, no?
    
    Steve
    

I much prefer the change that DCU is making.  What I got
my loan about 2 weeks ago, they told me this change
was coming.  It makes sense all the way around.  Instead
of having money earning less than 5% in an escrow account,
it has already been applied to the loan (in my case an
11.25% used car loan).

There is the additional impact of 52 payments instead of
48 payments a year.  Whether this is a blessing or a curse
depends on the individual.  I'm neutral.  Personally,
I think that if the change in the number of payments over
the course of a year is going to make that much of a
difference, you probably should have gotten a longer
term loan (or borrowed less money)!  Either way, DCU is
making the right choice, in my opinion.

    I don't think the letter in .7 is what is referred to in the base note.
    I got a letter from DCU yesterday, and it's not the one in .7.
    
    Mine says that my escrow is going into my checking account, and
    payments will be made from that once a month.
    
    It sounds to me like the base note is referring to the letter I
    got, not the one in .7.
    
    

    
    Re: .17
    
    I received the one quoted in .7, how about posting the text
    of the letter that you got?
    
    Steve
    
    

    >I received the one quoted in .7, how about posting the text
    >of the letter that you got?
    
    I don't have it here.
    
    Mine was for a home equity loan.  Maybe the .7 letter is for car loans.
    

    
    Re: .19
    
    > Maybe the .7 letter is for car loans.
    
    It was.  I have one.  Perhaps there is a difference for home equity.
    Sorry if I jumped on .0 too soon.
    
    Steve
    

Seems one of the letters (.7) could work out in the favor of the lendee and that
is the weekly posting of payments.   Even if you paid 4 times a month, the
shorter interum payment period should make the load pay off faster than paying
once a month.

Note, auto loans are owned by and paid to DCU.

The letter referred to in .0 would make sense for a mortgage, which had been
sold to someone else (outside) which DCU services.  I don't know if a 
"home equity" loan would be sold outside or not.

In this case, DCU may only be allowed to pay the purchaser of the loan on a
monthly cycle, meaning ther cannot overpay the principal for you, and it would
cost them (possibly serious) money to compute principal and interest for you on
on a weekly basis (accelerated principal payments + 2 extra a year) and then
pay on a monthly basis (they get hit for a months interest on a fixed principal).

Also, there may be something in the Home equity (and Mortgage?) contract
reguarding modification of terms.

Personally I'd LOVE to have DCU hold my mortgage and withdraw (and pay) weekly.
This would be even better, and faster, than twice a month.  But (DCU are you
listening) I CANNOT afford non competitive rates for my loan.

Does anyone know how much an extra account would cost in terms of bookeeping,
auditing, IRS reporting, etc (ad nauseum)?  If it costs anything, the sum
total of all such accounts might be worth considering as a cost saving measure.
Lets not "penny analyze".  We (who have been working for more open elections)
believe there might be some serious problems in DCU.  BUT I have not heard
anyone say that they were interested inthe day to day micromanagement of
the business of the "bank".

Oh, and to DCU, yet again your presentation could have been a LOT better.

Quit announcing "wonderful news", just (on recyclable paper, or even grey
matter like the statements) tell us what you are doing, and WHY.  You wouldn't
need an advertising copy writer (to get peoples backs up) which would also save
money for DCU and the MEMBERS.

nuf said.

I posted .7, so I'll confirm it is indeed a car loan I have with DCU.  It came 
on the same grey paper that I get my statements on.

I wasn't thrilled with the wording and in particular the shortness of the 
letter.  I do not think it is misleading at all, it just isn't very 
informative.  I almost feel like DCU doesn't care if I really understand the 
change and why it is being made.  It's as if they should steal Nike's ad 
campaign and put those three words at the bottom of the letter - "Just Do It."

A more thought out explanation of the benefits for this change to me as 
borrower and to me as DCU member would be that little bit of extra effort that 
would make me feel just a little wanted by DCU.

Scott

    I received 2 letters from DCU.  One was for the car loan I have with
    them and the other was for my CRT line of credit.  If I remember, I'll
    try to bring in both letters and enter them here.
    
    I believe, from my short memory, that .0 somewhat resembles my CRT
    letter and .7 resembles my car loan letter.
    
    Don

There are at least 2 letters.  I have an "ADVANTAGE" credit line and a used
car loan.

The credit line letter said that my weekly payroll deductions would start going
into Share 5 (checking), and then once a month, an automatic deduction would
be made from Share 5 as my credit line payment.

The used auto loan letter just said the weekly payroll deduction would be
applied directly to my auto loan every week.

Personally, I don't understand why people would be upset about this.  All DCU
is doing is using my Share 5 as an "escrow" account for my line of credit, 
and for my auto loan making 52 payments a year rather then 12.

At worst, I see this change as a NOP.

--Scott

    Re .24

>Personally, I don't understand why people would be upset about this.  All DCU
>is doing is using my Share 5 as an "escrow" account for my line of credit, 
>and for my auto loan making 52 payments a year rather then 12.

    The major problem is if you get a balance mid month, and write that
    last bill, you need to now keep track (in your check book) of the money
    being accumulated.

    Personally, I don't mind the idea of weekly withdrawal/application but I
    do mind the thoughts of keeping track of stuff I didn't need to think
    about before.

    In this newer case, "the moneys not gone, don't forget it" would be the
    watch word.

re .14 & .15

In order to see why more frequent payments at a given APR favor the lender,
consider yourself in the position of the lender and assume that you manage
to relend the payments as they are received.  Then the aggegrate amount you
lend and relend is compounding faster with weekly payments than it would
with monthly payments.

Nevertheless, it looks like a win-win situation because of the spread
between what an individual can expect to receive for interest in an escrow
account (less) and what the individual can expect to pay for a loan (more).
The spread means that it's always "better" not to borrow at all.  Of course,
as beings of finite lifespans, we do rationally choose to borrow, and we
do choose to pay later rather than sooner in many cases.  However, when
sooner is three weeks and the money was going to sit in an escrow account
anyway (that is, not deployed either for consumption or at greater return
than the loan rate), sooner looks like a good choice, especially after
considering the convenience.

\Joe

    I would have welcomed the letter that .7 got.
    
    as noted, my .0 letter was different.  Why does it bother me?  Before
    everything was automatic.  Now I have to do a payment once a month.
    I can't see how this is benifiting DCU.
    ed
    

Re .27

What?  Are you the same person that posted .0?

>>    Instead, I have a 'choice' of getting my payment automattically
>>    from my checking account on the 25th of each month in one
>>    lump sum, or I can pay by check once a month.

"automatically" usually means no action on your part.  So where's the
beef?  DCU will still handle it for you.  The difference is your Share 5
account is being used as the escrow account.  And that's the only difference!

Re back there a few;

Maybe i'm just used to having automatic funds transfers done on my Share 5.
My life insurance company does an EFT from my account every month to pay my
premium - it's no big deal.

I can see a couple of possible ways to handle this in the checkbook;
1) you just increase your auto deposit amount that you normally record anyway
   by the amount DCU would withhold for your payment.  And you record the
   transfer every 25th of the month (just like writing a check).
2) You change nothing about how you currently record your deposit - everything
   remains the same.  Each month when you get your statement from DCU, you
   simply add up the withholdings, subtract the payment and enter the
   difference as a deposit (this is not all that much different from the
   old practice of moving the residual into Share 1).

If this saves DCU money then i'm all for it.  I don't see it as a major problem
for me, and it's much better then some of the possible alternatives that come
to mind like check charges, etc.

--Scott
    

1)  I have an auto loan, and the impression I got is that they are keeping
the simple interest rate the same, not the APR.  By paying every week
instead of once a month, at the same simple interest rate, the DCU has
*lowered* my APR.  And since they are not changing the amount of my
payment, that means that the loan will be completely paid off four months 
earlier than if they had kept with the old system.  It has the same effect
as if they gave me 10.25% interest on my escrow account.  I LIKE this!

2)  I don't have a line of credit or home loan, but if I did, the new 
scheme would not be a problem for me.  I already have the DCU transfer
money into my share 5 account, so the effect of this for me would be that
they increase my weekly share 5 transfer, and automatically debit my share 5 
once a month by the amount of my monthly payment.  It would add an extra
entry to my checkbook each month, but for me that wouldn't be a problem.
It is less convenient than an escrow account for some people, though.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- For those who like to say that this notes file is unrelentingly
negative about the DCU, take a closer look at this note.  I believe there
are more positive replies than negative ones, and there are positive
replies from many people who have posted lots of negative replies.
And most of the negative replies raise valid points -- confusion about
what the change really means and a wish to continue to use escrow for
the payments that still have to be paid monthly.  The volume level of the
discourse is perhaps louder than desirable, but we're all very sensitive
about the DCU right now -- time will solve that problem if/when it becomes
clear that those in charge are making a genuine effort to improve things.

    
    Re: .29
    
    > "automatically" usually means no action on your part.  So where's the
    > beef?  DCU will still handle it for you.  The difference is your Share
    > 5 account is being used as the escrow account.  And that's the only
    > difference!
    
    No, the difference is more than that.  When put in a true escrow
    account, it is all managed by the DCU since the escrow account is
    created specifically to service the loan payment.  No other
    transactions are logged against it.  By the DCU switching it to his
    checking, he has some additional bookkeeping responsibility to keep
    track of it since he is writing checks against that same account for
    other things.  
    
    In effect, the DCU has eliminated a service.
    
    
    Steve
    

    
    Re .29, .31:
    
    In that particular case (leave money in checking, extract monthly), DCU
    has also ceased putting the potential loan payment into a guaranteed
    interest-bearing account, and instead is leaving it in a potentially
    interest-free account. Small loss for individual owners, larger
    cumulative benefit for DCU.
    
    This is similar to the eventually-exposed "benefit" of the proposed
    DEC US biweekly pay check proposal -- and we know how popular *that*
    was.
    

Re .31 

Depends on how you look at it....

DCU still withholds the amount from your paycheck,
DCU still applies the payment automatically to your loan every month
DCU still lets the amount withheld pending the loan payment accumulate interest
    (assuming your balance is high enough)

Where is the service that has been eliminated?

Ok; so at the end of the month I have an extra step when I balance my checkbook
that I need to do, so that I can compute the residual and enter it as a
"deposit".  This really isn't that big a deal, is it?  I mean, I usually took
that residual from Share 1 into Share 5 every few months anyway; so DCU has
actually made my life easier - they've given me an additional service which also
saves them money at the same time.  That's great!  That's smart!

Re .32;  Ok, good point;  You might not earn any interest on the pending money,
(not that my CRT escrow account ever earned a lot of interest) but wouldn't
that interest eventually come back to me anyway.  I mean, this is a credit
union right?

I can certainly see though, that if someone starts out with the attitude that
DCU can do no right (which is an easy trap to fall into at this point), that
what they must have done here is eliminate a service.  And they did this
just to make the membership mad, because after all, that's the goal of
every good credit union.

--Scott

    
    Re: .33
    
    > Where is the service that has been eliminated?
    > Ok; so at the end of the month I have an extra step when I
    > balance my checkbook that I need to do, so that I can compute
    > the residual and enter it as a "deposit".  This really isn't
    > that big a deal, is it? 
    
    You answered your own question.  The service they have eliminated
    is that where once they assumed total responsibility, they dropped
    some of it back in your lap.  To some people that's a big deal.
    
    You could also think of it as a contract.  I enter into an agreement
    with DCU to do business in a certain way.  DCUs decides to make it
    easier/cheaper on them by dumping some of responsibility back on me
    without getting my agreement.  What if I entered into the agreement
    BECAUSE of the way it was at the time and would not have done so if
    the rules were the way DCU is now changing them to?
    
    It not going to instill trust and credibilitly PARTICULARLY when the
    DCU is in the middle of a flap over that very issue.  Timing is
    everything.
    
    Steve
    

   Re: .32
   
   I got a letter for my CRT account.  It says the money will be put
   into my Share 1 account.  I assume that it will be done this way
   because I don't have a checking account.  Perhaps one can request
   their account to be setup accordingly.
   
   Re: one of them back there
   
   Any account on the books at a financial institution costs money to
   maintain.  Some items to consider are:
   
   	o storage space for account records (disk in this case [I
   	  hope])
   
   	o time for processing (account posting, statements, etc.)
   
   	o paper and mailing costs [my statement would go from 2 to 1
   	  page]
   
   Also, the financial institution takes an additional risk doing away
   with the escrow account.  You cannot take money out of the escrow
   account for any reason.  It is protected.  Not even the IRS and
   attach that money (I believe it's because that money is considered
   encumbered).
   
   Going to the new system makes those funds available to you
   immediately, and, therefore, makes all of the old escrow account
   loans open to "late payments".  You get charged for late payments,
   but that means the financial institution doesn't have your payment to
   loan to others.
   
   The only thing I am not sure of is whether a financial institution
   can loan money in the escrow.  We get interest on the money, so it
   would seem they can.  But if the IRS cannot attach the money for back
   taxes it would seem they couldn't use it either.  If DCU can't use
   that money then it is to their benefit to kill escrow accounts.
   
   For me, nothing will change.  I seldom withdraw money from my savings
   accounts (1/quarter).  I usually wait until the end of the month so
   the transfer from escrow to Share 1 is made.  Now I will just wait
   until the transfer from Share 1 to Loan ? is made.
   
   I can see an additional pain for those whose accounts are very
   active.  You will have to make sure your records are good so that you
   don't get hit with a late charge because you flubbed your checking
   account.
   
   Which brings up an interesting senerio:  You have a CRT for overdraft
   protection on your checking account.  Your CRT payment now comes out
   of your checking account.  Your checking account doesn't have enough
   money in it to cover the CRT payment.  So, the system will bump your
   CRT so that you can pay the CRT.  Can we force the DCU computer
   systems into an infinite loop with this?

I'm not quite sure how protected the escrow account is.

Last fall, I paid my car loan off early, and changed my payroll withholdings
at the DCU.  They told me that another weekly payment may make it into escrow,
and that I'd want to catch that.  For the time being, they transfered what I
currently had in escrow back into my checking account.

Sure enough, a week later, one last payment was made to the escrow account.  I
used an ATM to transfer it to checking, and encountered no roadblocks in doing
so.  Again, at the end of the quarter when a few cents of interest were deposited
to the escrow account, I had no problems using an ATM to transfer it to my
checking account.

Admittedly, this all happened AFTER I paid off the loan that the escrow account
was attached to.  Even still, given that I cannot use an ATM to transfer money
INTO my RSVP account (have to get a teller to do it for me), I was quite 
surprised at the easy access I had to the escrow account.

.14> Repayment Schedule
.14> ------------------
.14> 2.  For a given APR on a loan, the more frequently the number of
.14>     payments, the more favorable it is to the lender. Mathematically,
.14>     banks and credit union make out better if you pay $100 monthly
.14>     vs $1200 at the end of the year.

Not necessarily.  I just wrote a program to first extrapolate the monthly pay-
ment of a given loan when providing the starting principle, annual interest rate
and the number of months to pay off the loan.  (interest is calculated prior to
the crediting of the payment)  The program then figures the first year's inter-
est payments on weekly (monthly*12/52) and monthly payments.  The first year
data on a $7000.00 loan with 9.5%, 36 months payback is in the next screen.
Paying it back in weekly payments, the first year's annual interest totals
$567.44, monthly $574.37.  Not much, but it is less on a weekly payback sche-
dule.

Week #	Start Bal	Interest/week		End Bal
------	---------	-------------		-------
 1      $7000           $12.78                  $6961.05
 2      $6961.05        $12.71                  $6922.03
 3      $6922.03        $12.64                  $6882.94
 4      $6882.94        $12.57                  $6843.77
 5      $6843.77        $12.5                   $6804.53
 6      $6804.53        $12.43                  $6765.22
 7      $6765.22        $12.35                  $6725.84
 8      $6725.84        $12.28                  $6686.39
 9      $6686.39        $12.21                  $6646.86
 10     $6646.86        $12.14                  $6607.26
 11     $6607.26        $12.07                  $6567.59
 12     $6567.59        $11.99                  $6527.85
 13     $6527.85        $11.92                  $6488.04
 14     $6488.04        $11.85                  $6448.15
 15     $6448.15        $11.78                  $6408.19
 16     $6408.19        $11.7                   $6368.16
 17     $6368.16        $11.63                  $6328.05
 18     $6328.05        $11.56                  $6287.87
 19     $6287.87        $11.48                  $6247.62
 20     $6247.62        $11.41                  $6207.29
 21     $6207.29        $11.34                  $6166.89
 22     $6166.89        $11.26                  $6126.42
 23     $6126.42        $11.19                  $6085.87
 24     $6085.87        $11.11                  $6045.25
 25     $6045.25        $11.04                  $6004.55
 26     $6004.55        $10.96                  $5963.78
 27     $5963.78        $10.89                  $5922.93
 28     $5922.93        $10.82                  $5882.01
 29     $5882.01        $10.74                  $5841.02
 30     $5841.02        $10.67                  $5799.95
 31     $5799.95        $10.59                  $5758.81
 32     $5758.81        $10.52                  $5717.59
 33     $5717.59        $10.44                  $5676.3
 34     $5676.3         $10.37                  $5634.93
 35     $5634.93        $10.29                  $5593.48
 36     $5593.48        $10.21                  $5551.96
 37     $5551.96        $10.14                  $5510.36
 38     $5510.36        $10.06                  $5468.69
 39     $5468.69        $9.99                   $5426.94
 40     $5426.94        $9.91                   $5385.11
 41     $5385.11        $9.83                   $5343.21
 42     $5343.21        $9.76                   $5301.23
 43     $5301.23        $9.68                   $5259.17
 44     $5259.17        $9.6                    $5217.04
 45     $5217.04        $9.53                   $5174.83
 46     $5174.83        $9.45                   $5132.54
 47     $5132.54        $9.37                   $5090.18
 48     $5090.18        $9.29                   $5047.74
 49     $5047.74        $9.22                   $5005.22
 50     $5005.22        $9.14                   $4962.62
 51     $4962.62        $9.06                   $4919.95
 52     $4919.95        $8.98                   $4877.2
		Total:	$567.44
Month #	Start Bal	Interest/week		End Bal
-------	---------	-------------		-------
 1      $7000           $55.41                  $6831.22
 2      $6831.22        $54.08                  $6661.11
 3      $6661.11        $52.73                  $6489.65
 4      $6489.65        $51.37                  $6316.83
 5      $6316.83        $50                     $6142.65
 6      $6142.65        $48.62                  $5967.09
 7      $5967.09        $47.23                  $5790.14
 8      $5790.14        $45.83                  $5611.79
 9      $5611.79        $44.42                  $5432.02
 10     $5432.02        $43                     $5250.83
 11     $5250.83        $41.56                  $5068.21
 12     $5068.21        $40.12                  $4884.14
		Total:	$574.37

    
    If dcu does indeed use computers to handle accounts, I fail to see the
    savings from switching from escrows to this new method.
    
    I do see additional CO$T$ involved with the new system.  In the letter
    it was stated that a statement will be sent monthly.  To me, this 
    represents postage and handleing charges.
    
    Now why can't we have these discussions in this notesfile without being
    charged with being a whinner?  DCU has a service I liked, its being 
    eliminated, I talk about it.  This service elimination alone, is not
    enough to make me switch banks, but as DCU heaps it on...
    I did call DCU.  The gentleman I talked with was very nice.  He said
    that they never considered my point.  I'm glad about this honesty, but
    now wonder about the thought they give when they start new programs.
    
    Gee, wouldn't it be nice if a bod member said  "it was proposed that we
    do this....... what do you think?"  and in typical notesfile style,
    the pros and cons could be dragged out.  That would give a bod a
    greater base to make decisions that affect us all.  
    
    ed

> Regarding .37
>
> Not necessarily.  I just wrote a program to first extrapolate the
> monthly pay- ment of a given loan when providing the starting principle,
> annual interest rate and the number of months to pay off the loan.
> (interest is calculated prior to the crediting of the payment) The
> program then figures the first year's inter- est payments on weekly
> (monthly*12/52) and monthly payments.  The first year data on a $7000.00
> loan with 9.5%, 36 months payback is in the next screen.  Paying it back
> in weekly payments, the first year's annual interest totals $567.44,
> monthly $574.37.  Not much, but it is less on a weekly payback sche-
> dule.

Thanks for pointing out imprecise language on my part.

I should clarify my statement.  I should say that the effective rate of
return to the bank is higher if you pay monthly vs at the end of the
year.  You were looking at the interest payments while
I was focusing on the interest rate.

An example will clarify this. Consider the following scenarios
(the numbers were picked to illustrate the points):

1. borrow $1000 and repay it a 10% interest at the end of the year.
2. borrow $1000 and repay it monthly at 12% interest.

It's clear that in case 1, the interest payment is 10% and I owe
the bank $1,000 + $100.

In case 2, I pay only $66 in interest; that's because I'm reducing the
debt owe monthly.  If I were the bank,
I would lend money under scenario 2 vs scenario 1 - assuming of course
there are customers to lend to.

If I were the consumer, I would avoid debt (which I do) all together
and avoid making these decisions.


               Amount      1000       Monthly
               Interest     12%	      Payment     $88.8488
	                                       
                          Int.    Princ   Balance
              1 1000.00   10.00   78.85  921.15
              2  921.15    9.21   79.64  841.51
              3  841.51    8.42   80.43  761.08
              4  761.08    7.61   81.24  679.84
              5  679.84    6.80   82.05  597.79
              6  597.79    5.98   82.87  514.92
              7  514.92    5.15   83.70  431.22
              8  431.22    4.31   84.54  346.68
              9  346.68    3.47   85.38  261.30
              0  261.30    2.61   86.24  175.07
              1  175.07    1.75   87.10   87.97
              2   87.97    0.88   87.97    0.00

	 Total interest  66.1855

              

    My auto loan is similar to .7.
    
    Below, I'm entering the note I received for my Advantage Credit (I
    used to know it as CRT line of credit).  I checked it over for typos
    and found none.  PLEASE NOTE: I believe they have a typo though!
    That line states, "After your May 25, 1991...", I'm sure they meant
    1992!
    
    
    BEGINNING MAY 28, 1992, ALL WEEKLY PAYROLL DEDUCTIONS PREVIOUSLY
    DEPOSITED TO YOUR "ESCROW" SHARE 13 WILL BE DEPOSITED TO YOUR
    SHARE 5 (CHECKING).
    
    On June 25, 1992, and each month thereafter, your payment(s) will
    be automatically transferred to your loan(s) from your SHARE 5
    (CHECKING).  You will receive a monthly statement indicating the
    payment amount(s) to be transferred.
    
    This change will streamline DCU's loan payment operations, while
    continuing to automatically make monthly payments to your loan(s).
    
    
                 ***********CASH BILLING OPTION***********
    
    IF YOU DO NOT WANT YOUR LOAN PAYMENT(S) TRANSFERRED FROM YOUR
    SHARE 5 (CHECKING), PLEASE RETURN THE CONFIRMATION BELOW NO LATER
    THAN APRIL 24, 1992.
    
    If the confirmation is returned, your loan(s) will be converted to
    cash billing and you will receive a monthly loan bill, beginning
    with your June 25, 1992 payment.
    
    After your May 25, 1991 payment, any payroll deductions previously
    deposited to your "escrow" share 13 will be deposited to your share
    1 (savings).
    
    
    Below this was the CONFIRMATION OF CASH BILLING which I will not enter.
    
    Don

    
    I assumed when I first read this letter (re .40) that when they
    stated, "You will receive a monthly statement...", that they meant
    that this information would be included with the statement they already
    send out.  Maybe I shouldn't assume this.
    
    Don

I received the .7 letter regarding a stock loan and a personal loan. I've got
no problem with it - the quicker payoff is a win for me. And, the extra
payment each quarter that ended up in my primary was a nice unexpected-sort-of
"treat", but not really necessary.

I received nothing about any changes to my Home Equity loan, which I have always
paid via a monthly statement. I hope they have no intention of converting this
to a weekly or monthly automatic withdrawal by default if I don't return some
form. Could they, in fact, legally do such a thing (institute an automatic
payment where none had previously been authorized, without prior written
consent)?

-Jack

    Since DCU is automatically deducting money from your account
    every month, why not just immediately use that money to pay
    off part of the loan?  Reduce the outstanding balance, pay
    a portion of the interest, etc....

    Why continue to 'save' it up in ANY account (escrow, checking, etc)
    and then pay it off at the end of the month.

    I thought the whole savings to the 'borrower' came from reducing
    the loan (at a higher interest rate) compared to 'escrowing' it
    at a lower interest rate (possibly 0)
    bob

    re .43
    
    I just called to ask a couple of questions about the new loan payment
    procedures.  I spoke with Marina (spelling?) at DTN 223-6735. 
    Hopefully I'm not misquoting her answers!
    
    
    Q: With regards to the Advantage Credit letter, why not apply the
       weekly deductions to the loan weekly versus escrowing them and
       then applying this to the loan monthly?
    
    A: The jist of the answer was that it's a variable amount that could
       be due each week or month.  It's not always a fixed amount that is
       due.  I got the impression that it would be a bookkeeping nightmare.
    
    I felt that that was a valid answer.  Your mileage may vary though.
    
    
    Q: It's unclear to me whether DCU is creating a whole new monthly
       statement or whether this information will be included in the
       "current" monthly statement.
    
    A: It'll be included in the current monthly statement and will be
       listed under the checking account (share 5).
    
    This made sense to me.  Save some money on postage, etc.
    
    
    Q: The letter stated May 25, 1991, was that a typo?
    
    A: Yes, that should be 1992.  She'll notify the appropriate people.

    I'm pretty upset about this change (for home equity loans) as well.  I
    don't mind them eliminating the special escrow account, but I do
    strongly object to being forced to use my share 5 account for this.
    
    I have 2 other accounts that I use for random amounts to keep my share
    5 balance under my control.  I don't want a varying withdrawal being
    done each month.
    
    But simply giving me the option of specifying which account to use
    would solve the problem for me.
    
    John

I simply opened a second checking acount and have a portion of my net pay 
diverted to this account each week. DCU deducts my house payment from this 
second account. No fuss, no muss.

-stephen

Did you ask if another, active, account could be specified ?

    Re: .47:
    
    > Did you ask if another, active, account could be specified ?
    
    Not yet (I've been out of the office).
    
    But the letter was very explicit - use share 5, or send in a check.
    
    John

The letter could be read as: (paraquote)

	"We will use share 5, or you can send in a check."

The implication I can see, is if they really want to serve us, that the
should be able to, at least, deduct from some other account, if only the
SHARE 1 vs the Sharedraft account.  It would probably do to ask.

You might also be able to set up a share 51 (another sharedraft account) to
use as your "escrow" accounts.  You might be responsible for minimums in that
account, though, given past attempts.

Any information found to these questions would probably be interesting
to all of us.

I visited the MKO DCU this morning and was able to set up my payments from my
share 4, rather than share 5 as the letter stated.

They did have to make some phone calls, but did make the change as I requested.
So I take back most of the bad things I was thinking about the DCU...  ;^)}

An interesting question occured to me after I left the DCU.  They made the 
changes today (stopped the payments to the escrow account and moved that money 
to share 4), but the letter states that the new policy doesn't take effect 
until May 28.  I wonder what will happen at the end of April when they try to 
make a payment from the nearly empty escrow account???  My May statement could
be interesting.

John

Hopefully, as I predict, your payment will be nade out of share 4.

I have never had a problem when a local person changed how my deductions
or transfers were run.  The took effect, immediately  (i.e. the next time the
event would trigger).

Bill

        In the particular case of a home equity line of credit used
        as the "overdraft protection" on checking (share draft, #5),
        this change is particularly bizarre.  Except immediately
        after a payment is made, you will dip into the next month's
        payment before you draw from the credit line.

        Can the home equity line of credit be used to pay the home
        equity line of credit payment???? :-{

        If I understand a note above properly, you were allowed to
        set up a Savings 4 account to be used exactly the same way
        the escrow account has been used?  That's nice, but where's
        the savings in that?  Why not just allow individuals to elect
        to keep the current account?

        How much more magnetic storage and electronic processing does
        the escrow account add to the processing for an existing
        active member with a loan and checking?

        Somebody earlier in this string suggested paying the money
        weekly from the escrow (or, in the future, from checking). 
        This can be done with the telephone banking system, and I've
        been doing it for about a year.  It sure would be nice to
        have this as an automatic option.

        Bob

        P.S.  It is ironic that a credit union that acts so
        unprofessionally can act so concerned about potential board
        members who lack professional qualifications.  A lot of good
        those qualifications have done us!

    I personally have been waiting for this for a long time.  This is the
    way I have always seen it done.  I never enrolled into their old escrow
    program, because it did not let me manage the money the way I wanted.

    I view this change as a positive.

    	- mark

    
    
    I am also one of the people who is not thrilled with what the DCU is
    doing with their loans...
    
    But I was wondering....When I first got my loan with them didn't we
    sign a "contract" stating that they will do deposits and withdraw $$$
    from the account to pay the laon?....Aren't they basically breaking
    the contract?...
    
    I think they should do the new process for the people they give NEW
    loans too....
    
    

  Gee... If they are breaking their part of the contract maybe you don't
have to pay ;-.]

    Well, today is the day that your Advantage Credit will be deposited to
    your share 5 (checking) instead of share 13 (escrow).
    
    I noticed that my Net Pay did not increase so I went into the local
    DCU branch to ask what happened.
    
    The teller told me that the Net Pay will not go up because the new
    change will be a separate deposit to share 5 covered under the Credit
    Union category under the Voluntary Deductions list on your pay deposit
    statement.
    
    I assumed incorrectly that the Net Pay would go up.
    
    Don

    Right.  I called to find out what happened because when I used "Easy
    touch" the only deposit it listed was the net pay deposit.  I couldn't
    figure out where my previous share 13 deposit had gone.  The woman I
    spoke to on the phone was very nice (considering they must have the
    phone ringing off the wall today) and told me the same thing.  Your
    old share 13 deposit is now a seperate deposit into your share 5
    account.
    
    Marie

.5>        There are broken things at DCU, but this change is not one of them.
.5>	Give it a break...
    
    I gotta disagree.	I can't give it a break, it's already broken.
    
    I just discovered the elimination of the mortgage escrow service.  It
    seems that this is yet another issue that was poorly handled by DCU. 
    
    The explanation was not clear, or I would not have been surprised to
    discover this from the account balance rather than having it explained
    beforehand (I dimly recall seeing a mailing about it and deciding it
    was not significant for me - WRONG!).
    
    Adding to the confusion, it seems from this note that the elimination
    of escrow accounts was handled differently for mortgages (monthly
    payment escrow function added to existing share 1/share 5(?) accounts)
    and car loans (payment credited to loan when deduction received weekly).
    
    I did not get a full explanation from the teller when I learned about
    this, but I was told that other existing DCU accounts could not be
    used for automatic monthly mortgage payments.  Thus my existing
    "u-name-it" (share 4(?)) account could not be used to substitute for
    the escrow function, but I am *FORCED* to use my primary account for
    this function.
    
    I DON'T LIKE THIS.  My decision to use a separate escrow account was a
    personal choice, for reasons that make sense to me.  I don't care that
    others may not share those reasons or that choice, removing the option
    is a reduction in service to me.
    
    I suspect I understand some possible reasons behind this.  The argument
    of cost is specious, IMHO, because most of the routine operations
    should be unaffected by the need to carry additional bits in some
    database.  The argument in .5 about saving $$$ by not moving $$$ misses
    the point that they are moving exactly the same $$$ the exact same
    number of times, the only difference is how they keep track of them
    during the process.  What this change does is to place an additional
    burden of responsibility on me for keeping track of them, as part of a
    larger balance in my primary account, rather than continuing to provide
    the service of a separate account to track them.  The only cost they
    might reduce is development cost due to complexity in their data
    processing to provide automatic payments to and from other financial
    institutions (like, for mortgages sold?).  
    
    Maybe this change reduces cost for DCU (I still doubt that!), but it
    does it by increasing costs for me - that's not an acceptable tradeoff
    as far as I'm concerned.
    
    What will happen instead is that it will increase the DCU cost.  This
    month at least it will cause a needless notice to be generated because
    I didn't realize why there was an unexpected balance in my share 1
    account, and transferred it to my share 4, so the mortgage payment will
    not be covered when the automatic debit occurs.
    
    Ultimately, if the DCU cannot (no, I *KNOW* they *CAN*, if they *WILL_NOT*) 
    provide the service of a separate escrow account I will either move the
    mortgage (I'd rather not refinance, but will if it looks advantageous)
    or I will use an account in another financial institution for escrow
    purposes, and DCU will lose the deposit of those escrow funds entirely. 
    Either of those seems to me to be contrary to DCU's best interests, but
    I can't look out for DCU's interests when they aren't looking out for
    mine...
    
    --bruce mcculley

.58>                  -< service wins votes, I vote with my feet >-
    
    I realized an explanation of the cryptic title for my last post might
    be pertinent to the discussion too.
    
    The mortgage I have with DCU was made by refinancing when they first
    started doing mortgage business in NH.  Previously I had a construction
    loan that turned into a mortgage with Cheshire County Savings Bank in
    Keene NH.  (I still do quite a bit of business with them, largely
    because of the experience I am about to relate, so giving them my
    mortgage escrow account would be easy.)  After I originated the
    construction loan and locked in the mortgage rate, rates went down
    significantly, and the introductory DCU rates were very good.  So
    refinancing was very clearly advantageous.
    
    A few weeks after I refinanced, I was walking across a shopping center
    parking lot in town on a Saturday afternoon when I was accosted by the
    loan officer from CCSB.  His first question after greeting me was
    "how'd we screw up?" and I had no idea what he was talking about.  He
    explained he noticed that I'd moved the loan, and he wondered what
    they'd done to lose my business.  I explained the situation with DCU,
    and when I told him the rate I'd gotten he commented "you did the right
    thing."
    
    Contrasting his attitude with those I've experienced from DCU, it's
    easy to question that.

    I didn't see where the old escrow would become a seprarte entry in
    share 5 as a deposite.  I *really* didn't think DCU would do something
    so dumb!  How does one keep there check book up to date, now two
    entries for each pay day.  DUMB!
    
    I did call and express my displeasure.
    
    To my suprise, a nice lady called me back later in the day.  She had
    analized my account useage and found a way to escrow *like* the old
    way.  my account -3 was not being used now.  So what will occur is
    that the normal weekly payments will go to -3 and the monthly will
    come from -3.  this is different than -1 savings which through my
    useage [sometimes taking balance to zero] would not work.
    
    While the idea of taking the escrow account is DUMB, STUPID, etc, I 
    do appauld DCU for helping me come up with a workable solution, and
    for really looking at a customer complaint.
    
    ed
    

    	I received my first statement from DCU today to let me know that on
    the 31st they will deduct my payment from my share-1.  I understood
    that there would be no extra mailings for this new system, with that in
    mind it made a little since.  With the extra mailing just to let me know
    that they will be taking a payment (will there also be another mailing 
    to let me know that the payment was made?) this new system makes no
    since at all.  

    RE:.60
    	Using a share-3 account sounds great.  I think I'll call and
    see if I can do the same.

    Joe 

.60>    To my suprise, a nice lady called me back later in the day.  She had
.60>    analized my account useage and found a way to escrow *like* the old
.60>    way.  my account -3 was not being used now.  So what will occur is
.60>    that the normal weekly payments will go to -3 and the monthly will
.60>    come from -3.  this is different than -1 savings which through my
.60>    useage [sometimes taking balance to zero] would not work.
    
    Funny, I was told that was impossible.  
    
    On June 3, I asked about the escrow policies while transacting other
    business at the ZKO branch counter.  I then waited about fifteen to
    twenty minutes while a couple of staff members huddled in a phone
    conference in the back office.  Finally I was told that automatic
    mortgage payments could be made *only* from the Share 1 or Share 5
    accounts.  I also received an explanation of technical reasons for that
    constraint (ie, the account numbering scheme is not fully accomodated by
    the programming, as I had guessed).  I was also told that the set of
    possible subaccounts is fairly large, and that the only distinction
    among them is the value contained in the subaccount number field. 
    Since I noticed on my recent statement that my mortgage escrow account
    was a Share 12, it seems that if it is in fact possible to use some
    subaccount other than Share 1 (primary savings) or Share 5 (primary
    checking) for automatic mortgage payments, it should be possible to use
    Share 12 thus preserving exactly the previous escrow situation.
    
    Given this confusion, my view of DCU's routine daily operations is not
    very positive...

This "confusion" has been a problem from day 1.   There is a lack of knowledge 
and consistency between the branches.   The DCU management needs to put some
serious effort and quality into their training.   This was understandable when
they started but there no longer exists any reasonable excuse for this type
of incident.  

I think that one of the highest priorities is for clear consistent policies and
direction to the employees that they can understand and for clear and 
consistent policies for the members.  This is basic customer relations.

If the branches can't even get consistent answers from the HQ, then it is worse
than I thought.

I don't understand why the weekly deduction cant be posted directly to the 
loan instead of having to be accrued and transferred one a month.  Yeah , I
know about the 13 weeks per quarter, but why can I not have a REAL CHOICE in
how I pay the loan.

Re: .62
Could you find out from .60 who he talked to and call her and ask her to
talk to the ZKO people? Let us know what happens. I'll pass along the
larger problem about inconsistency to DCU next time I'm over there.

.60>    She had {...} found a way to escrow *like* the old way.  
.62>    Funny, I was told that was impossible.  
    
    I spent some time on the phone over the past week trying to sort this
    out, and although I am not sure I've exhausted all possibilities I now
    think I've figured it out.
    
    Ed Badger, the author of .60, tells me that his escrow/payment was for
    a line of credit for cash reserve/overdraft protection.
    
    Mine is a first mortgage.  I believe some other replies earlier in this
    thread were about car loans and perhaps other types of loans.
    
    Apparently the system treats various categories differently.
    
    I have been told again that it is not possible for me to have my
    mortgage escrow handled in the same way as Ed's credit line escrow.
    
    I believe that with their present system, DCU cannot provide the level
    of service that I desire.  I'm willing to live with that for awhile, to
    give the opportunity for improvement, but I don't plan to let my
    dissatisfaction become permanent (nor do I plan to lower my expectations 
    for service).
    
    Also, I think that the present system was designed with priorities that
    did not properly value customer satisfaction, and as a result there has
    been an additional cost from the increased workload and problems with
    customer service as a result.  That's a message I hope will get back to
    the DCU management channels and corporate culture, so that they won't
    repeat the incorrect prioritization in any future system changes.

    	I'll never understand why they send me an extra mailing every
    month just to let me know that they will be taking my payment out of my
    share-1 account (they could do that on the regular statement).  If this 
    is just a note to tell me that they will soon transfer my payment, why
    do they include a return envelope (another waste of my money)?

    Joe  

    This looks like the best place to put this.
    
    On Monday I received a letter from DCU saying that they had just done
    their semi-annual review of mortgage escrows and that mine would be
    increasing by almost $33 a month. I knew that my taxes had gone up 3.8%
    but this was an increase of over 17%. In our town, the first two tax
    bills are estimates based on the previous year's taxes and when the
    real tax is calculated, the second two quarter's bills reflect any
    adjustment.
    
    I called DCU to find out why the escrow was increasing by so much and
    it was explained that after the last tax bill was paid at the end of
    January, I had a certain amount left over in the escrow account (which
    I knew) and of course the 2/1/94 payment added to that amount. They
    estimated the next two bills based on the last bill and divided by
    four months. This gave them the new figure to be escrowed each month.
    I didn't have my copy of the tax bill in front of me so I couldn't
    dispute any of the numbers and it sounded reasonable.
    
    When I got home I did some figuring and found that there would be five
    months of payments in addition to the current escrow amount and that
    this would be more than enough to cover the tax bills. I drafted a
    letter showing a table of escrows, tax bills and remaining escrow
    balance and sent it to DCU to show them that no adjustment would be
    needed until next January.
    
    I got a call back and was told that they don't count the payment to the
    escrow account in the same month as the tax bill is paid. So if they
    pay my taxes in the last week of July, then the escrow amount deposited
    on 1-July isn't figured in. 
    
    I was then told that since my equity was over 20%, I could ask DCU to
    let me pay my own taxes ( which is what I asked when I refinanced with
    them in October but was denied). So I've sent off my letter and I'll
    wait to hear what they say.
    
    I just find this an interesting way for them to get another $392 a year
    from me ( I know, it's for the taxes but it's extra money I'd have to
    have deducted weekly and totally unnecessary).

	They're also allowed to keep a cushion (my mortgage isn't with DCU) of
some percentage of the estimated yearly payout.  It's 5% in my case. When the
Nashua taxes went up, my payment went up $100.  It happens that the December 
tax bill had been high to make up for a June bill at the old rate, my homeowners
premium had gone up some, and my previous lender had undercalcuated the cushion.
They just recalculated my escrow, and now that the bills have leveled out, I
have $101 surplus and my payment went down $70.

	
	It's a game.  If they'll let you skip escrow and you're comfortable
doing that, I'd say go for it.

						--Doug

    You should also have the option of paying the difference and having
    them adjust the escrow by an ammount that makes sense.
    
    It's a game alright.  My mortgage is with GMAC and they did the same
    thing - two or three years in a row.  up, UP, down, up, down.  grrrr!!!
    but if you agreed to the escrow (which I didn't know better then) you
    are stuck.

    I got a call today that they will let me pay my own taxes so now I have
    to set up another sub-account, which is fine with me. 
    
    I understand that they want to be able to cover the taxes but when I
    refinanced, it plainly stated that it was MY responsibility to make
    sure there was enough in the escrow account when it came time for
    taxes. 
    
    This whole thing just struck me as a way to tie up close to $600/year
    for no apparent reason (hey, how would this affect the almighty capital
    ratio? 8-} ).

>   I got a call today that they will let me pay my own taxes so now I have
>   to set up another sub-account, which is fine with me.


Oooohh and what will this do to your "relationship".  Using sub accounts
is  "abusing" DCU, isn't it?

  }8-)}

\Bill     

    No, ya see, that's the beauty. Since I'm a relationship member, I'm not
    an abuser but I used to be an abuser until I was a relationship
    member...around and around we go, where it stops, nobody knows!