Conference 7.286::dcu

    I recently refinanced my house. As part of the process my credit record
    was reviewed by the bank and I got a copy. I was happy to find that it
    contained no mistakes and omitted only several accounts I had closed
    long ago. After so many horror wtories about faulty reports, I
    was pleased to to see an accurate record.
    
    
    kbs
    

    
     I'd like DCU to issue positive credit reports of credit-worthy members
    as routine business, I do not believe there is currently a policy
    regarding this, for that matter, what are DCU credit reporting policies
    in general?  
    
     I reviewed my TRW credit report (get your own before talking to a bank) 
    and was disappointed that loans I had paid-off early (6months to a year) 
    were NOT reported. When asked, DCU agreed to report to TRW.
                                       
    clay   

    INdeed, talk about a catch 22...
    
    I Moved here from overseas. Depsite all sorts of information from my
    "home" bank about my good financial health etc, DCU basically treated
    me as though I had just walked out of Bankruptcy Court.
    
    Soon after arriving, I was in Service Merchandise, and followed up
    their offer for a "instant store credit card" on production of a Driver's
    License, and another Major Credit Card. I had transferred my AMEX card
    through AMEX, but lo and behold, I didn't exist. The form went in
    anyway, and a few weeks later, I get a notification from TRW explaining
    why I was rejected. The kicker was, the day before, based on the fact
    that I had got an AMEX card (the initials matched), I was offered a
    membership of the TRW Credentials Service, "because of my excellent
    credit history".  I might add, that I hadn't even charged anything to
    that AMEX card at that point... 
    
    sheesh...
    
    
    
    q
    

Grumble, grumble, grumble....don't get me started on my 
Gillett's Semi-Annual Rant about the Evils of Credit Reporting Services...

Don't be too quick to blame DCU if you get turned down for credit 
cards or loans.  Be sure to check with ALL the major credit reporting
outfits to see what kinds of Bad Things they have to say about you.
It can make for surprising reading.

Case in point:  Back in 1983, I moved out of an apartment and broke
my lease when raw sewage began leaking into the bedrooms.  The landlord
subsequently sued me for breaking the lease (in small claims court) and
I lost (this is a wild tale in itself).  The judgement amounted to $500,
plus court costs for a total of $550.  I paid it, wrote off the experience
as college student stupidity about slumlords,  and forgot about it.

Three years later I apply for a credit card, and get rejected with the
explanation that there is "a judgement pending against you."  Off I go
to the credit reporting bureau where I lived (then South Bend, IN) to
get the story.  Seems that the court failed to report that the judgement
was paid in full on the day it was issued.  So, I get a copy of the
Satisfaction of Judgement from the Michigan small claims division, and
give it to the credit folks.  Rather than remove the incorrect entry from
my report, and restore it to it's previously pristine condition, they
add, waaaaayyyy down at the bottom "SUBJECT BROUGHT IN PROOF OF JUDGEMENT."
Sheesh...."subject?"  Now I feel like a criminal or something.

Bottom line:  Nearly 10 years after I moved out of a slumlord apartment,
that "Judgement pending" ***STILL*** causes me difficulty from time to
time.  A simple clerical error that the credit reporting people refuse
to correct has delayed credit applications, forced me to write explanatory
letters, and in general been a complete and total inconvenience.
Fortunately, it hasn't been materially damaging.  I know lots of stories
about people who have had boat loads of trouble due to bad information
on their credit reports...people who have lost houses they wanted to buy,
or been turned down for credit they really needed.  Data, whether correct
or incorrect, sticks around on credit reports for a long, long time.
And the longer it's on there, the harder it is to remove if it turns 
out to be bad.

If you haven't done it, you definitely owe it to yourself to completely
review all the major credit reports about you.  And if you find bad data,
you should raise heck to the highest levels possible until you get
satisfaction.  Many of these outfits are on the defensive due to TRW's
big fax paux a while back, along with people's heightened concern about
privacy issues.  If you find a mistake, settle for nothing less than having
it removed from your report.  And don't let them back you down.

./chris

    After my Divorce and almost financial ruin I sent for my credit 
    reports from the big 3 (trw,equifax,& transunion). I found that my 
    ex- was still part of my credit trail, so after getting her name
    off of my reports, I then sent letters to the reporting agencys,
    because there was one bank that had an outstanding debt on my 
    report that went unreported as not paid off. I contacted the bank
    and they told me they would charge me $20 an hour to look up the
    documents! I then dumped it back into the hands of the agency
    in which they inturn contact the bank which cost me nothing.
    because by law they have to respond within 30 days. then if they
    can't provide proof of a valid debt then it is removed from your
    records. All debts good or bad are purged after 7 years  unless
    it's a revolving account (ie: credit cards). I have found that 
    writting these agencys yourself you can clean up 99% of any 
    derogatory report.
    
    Bill-

    Here's my story,
    
    About 3 years ago I applied for a loan and was rejected due to an entry
    on my TRW report.  The entry was an auto repo to Arlington Trust Co. 
    well I have never had any loans with Arlington Trust and after talking
    with TRW I was told that this was a "File Variation" with a different
    social security number and that when I applied for credit make sure
    that I include Jr in my name and this variation would not come up.
    
    well a year later I relocate to Maryland and apply for a mortgage
    making sure I use Jr in the name.  Lo and behold this erroneous piece
    of data pops up again only this time MY social sercurity number is
    listed on the account.  To me, this appears that TRW altered the data.
    I called TRW and demanded that they remove this entry immediately.  Of
    course they refused and made me go through the 30 day investigation
    deal.  Meanwhile Arlington Trust Co has been absorbed by Shawmut Bank
    (with whom I've had many Accounts).  I tried to track this account down
    through Shawmut Bank and it took me about three weeks of calling
    different 800 numbers before finally talking to a man in a office 
    somewhere in Connecticut who had the old Arlington Trust accounts and
    he verified the ss# and the account was again removed.  One year later
    it pops up again.  Of course I didn't keep the name or number of the
    person who found the account so I had to go through the same routine
    again.  This time they could not find this account but they removed the
    entry.  This time I saved names and numbers for both TRW and Shawmut.
    
    The funny thing is that this seems to show up in sept/oct timeframe
    each year so I'm looking out this fall and if it shows up again I'm
    going to see a lawyer.
    
    I thought credit reporting agencies were supposed to report what was
    reported by the creditor.  I'm curious as to how the social security
    number on that account was changed.  The other thing is that this item
    does not show up on the other 2 credit bureaus reports.
    
    Thomas
    

    
    re.1>
    What I have found out is:
    
    1) diffrent companys use diffrent agencys these companys may subscribe
       to, TRW and EQUIFAX but not to TRANSUNION or any combination thereof
    
       it seems even the lending insitutions do not rely on 1 reporting
      agency. 
    
    2) while something is disputed it is automatically taken off your
       record until proven.
        (this is why they don't want you applying for credit during a
        dispute) because the item in question doesn't appear and your 
        record looks clean.
    
    3) An Item may re-appear depending on the people reporting the 
        error as to when they report wheather it be monthly, quartly
        or even yearly! (IMO if something doesn't show up for 3
        consecitive months it should not show up any more) because during
        disputes they have to comply by law within 30 days to reply.   
    
     4) for some strange reason N.Y. residents satisfy judgment only after
          5 years.
    
     5) your better off not filing chapter 7,11 because that stays on your
        record for 10 years. as opposed to not paying them and have 7 years
        bad luck :^)  
    

One of the key injustices in the system is that one cannot identify the
source of the bad data -- who should be held liable for inserting the 
false data into the system (credit reporting agencies are by law not
liable).  It should be obvious to them that they have to keep track 
of the source of potentially false database entries.  But the credit
reporting companies have no incentive to do it that way.  

	Larry Seiler

    RE:.6
    
   > I thought credit reporting agencies were supposed to report what was
   > reported by the creditor.  I'm curious as to how the social security
   > number on that account was changed.  The other thing is that this item
   > does not show up on the other 2 credit bureaus reports.
    
    	Sounds like somebody at that credit reporting agency don't
    like you Tom.
    
    Joe

I saw the last episode of "The Machine That Changed the World" last night on
PBS (it will be rebroadcast in the Boston area this week, by the way); the
subject of discussion was computer networks.  They certainly underscored the
problem of errors and the propagation of errors.  Their big example was of this
approx. 90 year old songwriter who somehow got marked down somewhere as being
dead, and the adventures he had to go through to become alive again!!

But, gee, you'd think that if "everyone" knows how vulnerable the system is to
errors, they'd be a bit more user-friendly about errors when they turn up!

The worst thing that happened to me was I got a letter addressed to Joe E. Meier
saying that I (he?) had insufficient credit references and was therefore refused
a <store-name> credit card.  My SSN was correct, and I had filled in my name on
the application, so they couldn't have misheard it and written it wrong at the
source.

Jill (definitely not Joe!)

	Approximately a year ago my Master Card bill had a flyer in it which
offers one free year of service from TRW. The service included obtaining 
copies of my credit file whenever I wanted it, automatic notification whenever
someone asked to see the file or whenever a bad report was entered, an 800
number to call to request files, etc.

	I had never seen my credit report so I signed up figuring for free
I had nothing to lose. Turned out my report did have someone elses stuff
on it. Nothing negative, but not mine. I'll also admit to getting some
level of satisfaction from knowing whenever anyone is mucking with my 
credit rating (with TRW anyway).

	So, it is now a year later and I got a note yesterday stating that
if I wanted to continue they will be charging my MC a $29.00 fee for the 
next year. I had been debating it considering I had planned to request my
report annually anyway (which used to cost $15.00 a shot). Not having to
write letters, and having automatic notification of crap being added to 
my report was worth and additional $14.00 to me.

	However, from reading the press and this conference, it appears that
fees will no longer be the norm when requesting a copy of your report(s).
Any comments or suggestions?

						Mark

Does getting that report make it any easier to remove bad data?
I wouldn't think so, though of course it does make it easier to
find out if there is bad data.  Personally, I'd hate to pay for
something I feel they have a moral obligation to do for free
(that is, check to make sure their data is correct), but the
$29 per year may be worth the inconvenience.  TRW, as a result
of a lawsuit against them by a number of states, has said that
they will give people their credit report free, but who knows if 
that will last.  Also, we have a right to see the credit report
if we are turned down for credit, but that may be too late.  One
final point -- my mortgage company (Bay Finance) told the credit 
reporting agencies to send me a copy of the credit report.  I 
thought that was a classy way to operate -- I got it at the same
time they did, and if anything had been wrong, I could have started
working on it without waiting for my application to be denied first.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Does requesting a report cause an entry to be made in the report?
    
    Can I request a report without supplying my SSN?

I have an incredibly low opinion of credit reporting agencies, and the
ways in which they get their work done.  With that disclaimer, I'll say:

1.  Just because they're handing over freebies right now does not mean
    they'll keep it up any longer than absolutely necessary.  These guys
    are information brokers who make money selling data.  Giving it away,
    even to the "source" runs counter to money-making objectives.

2.  Credit reporting agencies are judge, jury, and executioner in 
    disputes with them.  I see parallels between them and the IRS.
    "Oh, you think we're wrong?  Ok, we'll have one of our employees
    decide if we are."  

So, a diligent consumer should review credit reports AT LEAST annually.
If you are engaged in credit-intensive activities, or if you are highly
leveraged you should review your reports more often.  And, at the first
sign of bad data, you should *immediately* begin to grate, complain,
write letters, make phone calls, and keep on them (sorta like Phil G
and the DCU) until they come around to your way of thinking.

So, I would consider $20-$30/year for a service like "TRW Credentials"
to be a reasonable investment.  It's too bad we have to waste money like
this, but it's definitely something people really MUST do.

./chris

re .13:

Yes, requests for a credit report are put in the database.  Businesses
can buy that data from the credit reporting bureaus for an extra fee.
It is not in the reports they send to US, but it is there.  I know it 
is there, because when I applied for an auto loan from DCU, they called 
back to ask if I knew why somebody had asked for a credit report on
me the previous March -- I had applied for a store credit card.  I
have absolutely no objections to the DCU checking up on that (they
approved the loan within a few hours), but I *do* object to the
reporting agency keeping track of that.  Some companies do, too --
MCI stole a lot of customers from AT&T by buying lists of the people
AT&T had asked for credit checks on, and then sending their own
comparison advertisements to those people!  

It is standard to supply the SSN to get a report on an individual.
However, I beleive that is simply to help avoid pulling the wrong report.  
I'm sure that the credit reporting agencies provide data in a lot of other 
ways than just in response to individual credit queries.  The Lotus
Household Marketplace product (withdrawn last year due to public pressure)
was only a more egregious example of the sort of thing that goes on all
the time.  (Note that Lotus claimed not to be releasing information on
individuals, but they did admit that they sorted their data by 9 digit
zip codes -- and there is a separate 9 digit zip code for nearly every
mailing address in the country.)

	Larry

    I currently subscribe to the TRW thing.  I'll probably continue it.  My
    report didn't have any bad marks or anything that looked like it was
    from another account.  I was turned down for credit once and I don't
    know why.  I was given the number of some obscure firm in Framingham.
    So, I tried calling them, and calling them, and calling them.  They
    NEVER answered the phone.  Sure, legally they should give me a report.
    But, first you have to get them to even talk to you.  This was not a
    big deal to me and I've long since lost the paper that had their name
    on it.  But, if I were to have this happen again I'd drive out and sit
    on their doorstep assuming they aren't some sort of boiler room scam.
    
    Steve

    Just yesterday I heard a radio commercial for a local bank.  This bank
    has been running "financial tips" ads.  Well yesterday's went something
    like, "You should get your credit report at least annually so that you
    can make sure your credit report is correct.  Cause if you go for a loan
    and your credit report is bad, you may lose out on purchasing your
    dream house.  Also, some employers are now checking up on their
    employee's credit rating.  Some of these financial companies may charge
    as much as $20 for a credit report..."
    
    So, if I can trust this ad, some credit reporting companies still will
    charge you for something I feel should be free at least once per year.
    AND, I was shocked to hear that some employers are now checking
    employees' reports.  I'm hoping this is just for jobs that require a
    clean credit check.
    
    Don

    
    re credit checks for employment:
    
      I think this is standard practice for jobs requiring a security
    	clearance (perhapse above a certain level.),  as well as jobs
    	which require access to secured airport areas.    (I think the
    	rationale is something along the lines of "if you are in financial
    	trouble,  you're more likely to be compromised by a bribe"...
    
    
    						-al
    

Unfortunately, credit checks as part of pre-employment screening
are becoming common in non-secured areas as well.  Perhaps the
employers view good credit as a measure of personal maturity or
ability to be responsible.  I've heard (first hand) reports of
individuals asked to release credit data when applying for menial
jobs, or for professional employment in non-financial, non-defense
related areas (specifically, as a COBOL programmer for a large
manufacturing outfit).

grumble, grumble, grumble...
./chris

Re: TE's question on inqueries:

yes... each request for a credit report  is there - including the
ones the DCU made on petition candidates.

The information there is absolutely incredible:
	- credit cards with credit limits and whether monthly
	  payments were made,
	- all mortgages/loans and payment history,
	- etc, etc.

I was absolutely shocked at the detail.

Gim

    
    RE: .20
    
>yes... each request for a credit report  is there - including the
>ones the DCU made on petition candidates.
    
    	Gim, did you actually see these on a report or are you assuming DCU
    did do this (as they asked permission to do)?  BTW, I did *not* grant
    them permission to do this.  BTWBTW, I believe all *applicants*, not
    just petition candidates, were asked to consent to such a check.
    
    

I have a physical copy of the my credit report.  One credit check was
done in January and one credit check made in February.

In both cases, I granted permisions with the following note:


      "You are authorized to make whatever credit inquiries that are
       necessary in connection with this application for the DCU Board
       of Directors.  This authorization expires on April 2, 1992."


Gim

    Because of the way credit reporting agencies share data, (sometimes
    directly, sometimes through various indirect sources), I am not
    surprised that eliminated incorrect items keep reappearing. Even if
    deleted from a database, bad backup approaches, distributed systems,
    third party communications and inappropriate procedures will almost
    guarantee that everyone will have recurring errors at some time.
    
    I believe that the 7-year rule should be abolished. If a person has
    reformed bad financial habits after 3 years, that should be enough to
    reinstate their good credit standing. 7 years is excessive and onerous,
    and means that even good intentions but accidental errors become the
    real-life parallel of breaking a mirror.
    
    Does anyone know of a civil liberties lobby on this point?
    
    Ray

I wouldn't want the 7-year rule reduced to a 3-year rule unless someone
could show that people who establish good credit habits for 3 years are
nearly as likely to maintain them as people who establish good credit
habits for 7 years.  

Regardless of the number of years, I believe that circumstances should
alter cases -- perhaps certain types of situations should expire after
3 years, e.g. cases where a credit problem was primarily due to outside
factors rather than due to bad judgement.  

Of course, even one day is too long for an error to exist in someone's
credit records.  

	Larry

    	Why pay for what you can get free?
    
    	You are entitled to a free copy of your credit report if you
    	are turned down for credit.
    
    	Just apply for something you know they'll never approve, and
    	then request a copy of your credit report because you were turned
    	down.  Ta da!

    That's what I thought.  Until I found that the credit agency didn't
    answer the phone ...
    
    Steve

    
      I believe the request has to be made in writing...
    
    
    
    				

    Here are the phone numbers:
    
     Credit Data of New England: 508-580-4800  
    
     EQUIFAX  800-685-1111   or  617-932-8124
    
     Transunion  302 -239-8800
    
       CDoNE offers 1 free credit report per year starting May 4th of this
    year.  you can obtain the other reports free of charge by telling
     them that you were refered to them by TRW. And this is stated at the 
     bottom of thier report!   so theres no need to pay for these reports
     at all.
    
     Have Fun
      Bill-

.25: 
>  	Why pay for what you can get free?
>    
>    	You are entitled to a free copy of your credit report if you
>    	are turned down for credit.
>    
>    	Just apply for something you know they'll never approve, and
>    	then request a copy of your credit report because you were turned
>    	down.  Ta da!

Bzzzt!  It's true that when you are denied credit, you can easily obtain
a copy of your credit report by writing to the agency listed on the denial
letter.  And that report, as long as it's requested within 30 days, is free
is also correct.  But applying for credit simply to get turned down to get
a free report is a major bad idea.

My understanding is that repeated inquiries into your credit history, 
accompanied by a lack of follow up (like a credit card being issued, or
a loan being approved) helps to deteriorate ones credit score.  So you 
shouldn't apply for credit unless you need it and have some idea that you'll
probably get it. 

Also, it seems that the data offered by different credit services can vary
in it's accuracy and content. You should contact all major credit outfits and
get reports from each of them..who cares about the $10...and see what they
really have to say.  Just because Equifax believes you're clean doesn't
guarentee that TRW believes likewise.

FWIW, I believe that the credit reporting agency used by DCU is Equifax.

./chris

    
    
    
    after reaading base note I mailed postcards to all the companies, and
    yesterday I got my TRW report. Thats pretty quick! And it didn't cost
    me anything. It was pretty blank, two searches by Sears and
    Discover(anything for a gift), and one search by the mortgage company.
    They had aboslutely no mention of anything else, credit cards,
    mortgages, etc which was surprising.
    
    Simon

    re: -1
    
    Simon,
    	could you put some addresses in here? 
    
    thanks,
    Ben

    
    
    I got the addresses from .0, way down at the bottom 8-)
    
    Simon

    
    The three credit agencies in the base note are used by almost
    everybody.  One may have information that the others do not.  Some of
    the agencies are stronger in certain areas of the country while the
    others are stronger in different geographies.  So bottom line is,
    contact all of them.  I encountered this when I first graduated from
    college and moved to Delaware.  The agency used had almost nothing
    available on my credit history because I had just moved to the area. 
    This may be different now, but it was the case back in '78.
    
    I was told DCU uses all three credit agencies depending on where the
    member is located.

    
    	Can anyone tell me how do you know if your on one of these credit
    reporting agencies lists or is it automatic?  Once you apply for credit 
    do they just send your name to every agency?
    
    Thanks Joe

My understanding is that when you apply for credit, have a collection
initiated against you, or have some other significant financial event,
the "involved organizations" may file information about you with one
or more credit reporting agencies.  If I apply for a loan with DCU,
then it is likely that DCU will report that the credit was grated (or
denied), and then may follow up that report with subsequent information
regarding my level of responsibility with regard to paying off the
loan (always on time, 5-10 days late, 11-15 days late, etc. etc).

Data is shared (bought and sold) between major credit reporting services
so that oftentimes several will have the same data, or nearly the same
data as the others.

You can find out if anybody has a file on you by contacting the agencies
listed in the base note.  I'm willing to bet, though, that if TRW knows
about you, then they all know about you.

./chris

    When you apply for credit an inquiry is recorded at the Credit Bureau
    from which the company pulls your report.  They don't report the credit
    decision directly.  If the credit is granted then the company may or
    may not report on a monthly or quarterly basis.  This is automatic at
    most creditors nowadays.  DCU has just started reporting to TRW.  They
    decided to put all of my old loans up in TRW but they listed them as
    PAID ACCT.  This I had a problem with because these loans were paid
    back thru payroll deduction and I never missed a payment.  I had to 
    call DCU and insist that the accounts should be listed PAID SATIS
    (which means you haven't missed a payment).  This may seem to be a
    minor gripe, but as closely as creditors are scrutinizing your credit
    reports today (especially DCU) then you need every piece of positive
    information reported correctly and you should insist on it.
    
    Regional Differences:
    
    When I lived in Mass, it seemed that everyone used TRW and I had no
    idea what was on Equifax or Trans Union.  Well when I moved to Maryland
    it seems that the dominant credit bureau here is Equifax.  When I first
    applied for credit here I was turned down and I found that there was
    all kinds of erroneous data on my Equifax (there had to be at least 12
    accounts, many delinquent, that weren't even mine).  Well when I went 
    to the Bureau to review the record and have things removed I was 
    interviewed by a woman who looked like she had been sucking lemons all
    day long (everyone in the office looked like that).  They are difficult
    to deal with because they assume that you don't know anything.  It took
    about two to three interviews to finally get all that stuff off of my 
    report.  I now monitor my reports at all three credit bureaus.
    
    Thomas