Conference 7.286::dcu

    Re .0
    
    That's par for the course. But I maintain that you get the same
    impersonal treatment from any bureaucracy. After running through
    exactly the same sort of experience as you've just gone through
    I decided to fix the problem once and for all. I applied for and got:
    
    	$5,000 CRT at DCU
    	$5,000 CRT at Baybanks
    	$5,000 credit limit on my Baybanks credit card
    
    I never use any of the above credit except occasionally when I forget
    to top up my checking account. But now I know that should I ever need
    an instant few grand sometime I'll be able to get it instantly without
    having to fill in a load of forms or argue with some bozo.
    
    Dave

    Dave, I have the same feeling. DCU is not a business, it is a
    beaurocracy. Local managers have no discretion worth speaking of, by
    policy. 
    
    I now feel that DCU is doing Digital Shareholders a major disservice,
    not just through the rubbish service I explained in .0, but because of the
    lost business opportunity due to bad practices. No normal bank has the
    security of having pay packets deposited directly to the bank or Credit
    Union. Or of having it's debtors in the same building, in the same
    company. Talk about loan security.
    
    And then, in a minor loan case like this, guess what. I'm told that
    they are GOING TO CONSULT TRW CREDIT SERVICE and won't make an offer
    until they've got a good report.
    
    My God, I could hardly believe my ears when the Senior Loans Manager in
    Parker Street, a few hours ago, tried to tell me that all other banks
    operate in the same way. Who do these people think they are fooling?
    Not me, that's for sure. I've had lifetime experience with banks in
    three countries and I've never before put in such good business then
    told, effectively, to get stuffed like this. 
    
    Now I have to go out and spend a few years of effort with a worthwhile
    alternative institution to do the same thing, all over again.
    
    Ooooh, I'm that pissed off.
    
    Ray

DCU is the only place I haven't been able to get credit. And I've gone through
and currently maintain plenty of credit. I simply refuse to even consider the
DCU for a loan when I need money. Take your good business elsewhere; somewhere
where they realize it's the people who know how to use credit are the ones you
want to sell your money to.

As a matter of fact, I'm in the midsts of selling my current house and buying
a rather more expensive one. Did the DCU even cross my mind as the place I'd
like to buy money from. No way! Not when they treat you like shit. So some other
lending institution will be getting all my interest and the DCU won't get a
penny.

-Glenn-

    This is not funny. When my wife and I bought a truck, we did not
    even think of trying to get a loan from DCU.  We have had so much
    hassle trying to get simple things from DCU, that we did not want them
    to muck up a semi-hard item.  I would feel VERY uncomfortable to
    finance a house through them.
    
    Somethings wrong when people are feel that there is not a need to at
    least try *THEIR* own credit union.
    
    	- mark

    When we want to take out a car loan we go to my husband's credit
    union. Members who are taking out a loan the first time must make out
    a lengthly application. Repeaters only have to fill out a minimal form,
    such as why you want the money. The loan approval committee meets twice 
    per week, Tuesday and Friday. If you really need the money in a hurry, 
    and bring your application to the main office on the morning of the 
    committee meeting, you can leave that afternoon with a check. 
    
    As far as I'm concerned this is the way things should be. If you have
    had a loan with DCU previously and paid it off properly what's their big 
    risk? The only way they don't get first crack at the money is if you leave
    the company. I would think their requirements would be less stringent
    rather than more so. I personally have only had one loan (for a
    computer purchase) with the DCU, and there will not be another. I will 
    not put up with their garbage when it comes to loan applications. 
    
    
    Linda 

    	I realize that things seem a bit impersonal, but I'm in the
    process of getting an Equity Line of Credit and the woman handling
    my application has been as nice and personable as could possibly
    be expected. As a matter of fact, I plan to send a letter of
    commendation to her manager when the line is credited. Even if I
    fail (I don't expect to) I'll do the same. I filled out a bunch
    of forms and my wife did also. I messed up half of them and this
    person was patient and even called me at home to explain what I
    should do and how to get it done. She called me again this morning
    to tell me the line I can expect and what will be happening in the
    next few days.
    
    	When I bought my car, I financed it through the dealer because
    he let me take the car home right then and there. I was notified
    two days later that my application was approved. I laughed and told
    the guy that I'd better be, or he'd better be able to come up with
    my old car that was sold....
    
    	Sometimes we need things in a hurry and not everyone is as panicked
    as we are to cover. As stressed as we may be, the CU and banks have
    to protect themselves. Almost to a bank or credit union, there are
    audits and audits of audits going on to protect them and the uS
    gov't from any more failed institutions. With the S&L mess, and
    the half trillion dollar cost to US taxpayers, lending institutions
    are under close scrutiny by many many different organizations. They
    have to be prudent today.
    
    	Ken

re .2:

>    I now feel that DCU is doing Digital Shareholders a major disservice,
>    not just through the rubbish service I explained in .0, but because of the
>    lost business opportunity due to bad practices. No normal bank has the
>    security of having pay packets deposited directly to the bank or Credit
>    Union. Or of having it's debtors in the same building, in the same
>    company. Talk about loan security.

1.  What does DCU have to do with DEC shareholders?

2.  DEC, like most large employers, will deposit your pay in any bank that
    you want.  Employers like direct deposit because it saves them money.
    Banks like it because it brings in deposits.  DCU is not unique.
    You can change your direct deposit to another bank at any time without
    getting DCU's permission.  How does direct deposit affect loan security?

3.  DCU <> Digital.  What difference does it make that they're in the same
    building?  Do you think it makes it easier for them to collect bad debts?

Now hold on there a second........


	I've  had  several  bank  accounts/loan accounts/lines 'o credit,
	etc.  at many different banks in 4 different states in  my  life.
	I  have  reasonably  good  credit,  and don't do evil things like
	bounce checks, miss payments, etc.  So, I guess that means I'm  a
	fairly average person, financially speaking.

	I've  never been able to walk into my bank, ask for money for any
	reason, and have them  hand  over  a  check.   I've  always  been
	required  to file some paperwork, and then wait at least a day or
	two for the bank to go through their  procedures.   Granted,  the
	turnaround  time  on bank loans tends to decrease when you've had
	previous loans, but the average person should not  expect  to  be
	able  to  signature  a  few  thousand  dollars without at least a
	cursory look at his credit history.

	The  last  time  I  borrowed  money  was  to by my truck (back in
	Michigan).  It took my bank overnight  to  make  a  decision.   I
	think  that's  excellent service.  If I'm hearing the DCU side of
	this correctly, it would take them about the same length of time.

	Why does it infuriate everyone so much that DCU wants to  protect
	its  shareholders  by  verifying credit and being conservative in
	its loan policy?  Seems to me that it's the prudent thing to do.

FWIW,

/Chris

    	I think that people who are in the "stress" of bouncing a check,
    missing a payment on the house....etc., tend to be a bit less flexible
    when dealing with anyone, be it the credit union or the power company.
    
    	The point made in .8 is excellent. The DCU is being wise in
    slowing things down a bit and making sure that you haven't just
    been fired, quit, or are just planning to take some money and run.
    
    	The original note stated that the person needed a few thousand
    dollars to cover their checkbook.....a few thousand to cover a couple
    of checks is pretty extreme. (for me anyway) To expect any lending
    institution to smile and hand over a couple grand is expecting a
    bit much. Considering that at one time (between houses) I had over
    $110,000 in my savings account in DCU, I wanted them to be careful
    how they loaned out *my* money. 
    
    	Past history is one parameter of a loan. The reason for the
    loan is another. Your stress can stress the loan officer and your
    demeanor will cause he/she to question the risk involved in giving
    you a loan. If you're sitting there trying to hurry her along and
    you've got sweat dripping all over her desk, she may begin to question
    the validity of your application and your truthfulness.
                                                   
    	A day or two wait is hardly bad service for any loan. I'm always
    reminded of a saying I say long ago:
    
    "Poor planning on your part does not 
    constitute an emergency on mine"
                               
    Ken

    Re:
    
>    "Poor planning on your part does not 
>    constitute an emergency on mine"

    Yes I've seen that little phrase posted up several places. If I see an
    organization that allows its employees to post such a ridiculous
    phrase as this I take my business elsewhere. It's been my experience
    that this phrase is posted in the sort of place where the employees
    are poorly trained, don't care about the customers and are more
    interested in talking about last night's baseball scores between
    themselves than helping out their customers who are trying to bring them
    business.
    
    Sorry a little off the track of DCU but I'm afraid I always get annoyed
    when I see this phrase.
    
    Dave

For me, it's not how long it takes with the DCU but that they deny me the
requests for credit. They deny me, I "walk down the street" to another bank,
and get just what I was asking for, hassle-free. That's a real problem with the
DCU. They are far too stringent on their requirements and turn perfectly good
risks away. Hence they don't make the money they could on those loans.

And yes, I've gone to more than one bank in the morning, asked for some credit,
and had it that afternoon. That's the way it should be. They should be able to
process that fast, that is.

-Glenn-

    I guess that I have been lucky with the financial institutions that I
    have dealt with.  I have never had to wait more than 2 hours for a
    consumer type loan(signature, auto, etc).  I had to wait a while for a
    mortgage but I guess that is to be expected.  It takes a bank about 10
    minutes to get a full credit report on you so why should it take more
    than a couple of hours to make you a loan?
    

    
    I suppose it's like food.
    
    there's fast food, in and out in a few minutes, then there's a regular
    resturant where the food takes a bit of time.
    
    If if you want fast food then that's fine, just don't complain about
    quality.  With "fast" loans, just don't complain about interest rates. 
    For a high rate, these "institutions" are happy to have your business. 
    
    Now if you don't mind waiting a bit for your food... err LOAN, then DCU
    is on par with a host of other credit unions/banks.  I personally
    don't find a few days much of a bother, just like I don't mind waiting
    20 minutes for my dinner to be prepared.
    
    I think expecting DCU to respond to your loan request in two hours is
    absurd!
    

    re: last few
    
    Back in April,  my  wife  applied for a car loan from DCU, and was told
    she would find out within  48  hours,  she  filled  out/handed  in  the
    paperwork at 3:30pm on a Monday, and I received the phone call (she not
    an DEC employee) at 9:30am the next morning, a total of 2 hrs DCU  work
    time later, or for you purest out there 18 hrs later.  
    
    All in all  about  the  same  service I get at my other credit union we
    belong to, DCU has  definetly improved their car loan application times
    since a few years ago.
    
    Claude

    I have found car loans are while you wait, at the dealer and banks are
    about 1-2 hours.  I have gotten unsecured personal loans from banks in
    less than 4 hours.
    
    	- mark

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 15-Jun-1990, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information. 
    
    Your comments on this response should be posted here or directed to
    to DCU directly at Mary Madden's number (dtn) 223-6735 x207.
        
    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************

         Response to 216.0
         
         June, 1990
         
         
         There seems to be some confusion regarding DCU's lending 
         guidelines as well as why we require specific 
         documentation prior to making any lending decision.
         
         Qualifying borrowers is a service not a science.  Every 
         borrower has his/her unique financial profile which is 
         analyzed by DCU loan personnel.  To assure DCU makes a 
         financially sound decision, each borrower's profile must 
         reflect the three C's of credit.
         
         Character:  Will the borrower repay the loan as agreed?  
         Has he/she repaid past loans at DCU as well as at other 
         financial institutions?  Has the potential borrower used 
         prior credit wisely?
         
         Capacity:  Does the borrower earn enough to pay back the 
         loan?  Has he/she had a good work history?  Is he/she 
         likely to continue working and earn an adequate income 
         to repay the debt?
         
         Capital:  What financial resources back up the promise 
         to pay?  Does the applicant have too many debts to 
         handle another?
         
         Though we encourage members to set up automatic 
         deduction to repay all DCU loans, it has no influence on 
         whether or not a loan will be granted.  We have no 
         automatic guarantee for repayment with payroll deduction 
         or employment at Digital Equipment Corporation.
         
         The primary purpose for automatic payment is to provide 
         our members with a convenient loan payment method.
         
         As a not-for-profit, independent financial institution, 
         established to service the financial needs of the 
         Digital community, it is our responsibility to insure 
         that our members' savings are loaned to qualified 
         individuals.  Our members trust us to protect their 
         investment from losses.
         
         If you have any questions or concerns about our lending 
         guidelines, we encourage you to contact our 
         communications department at DTN/223-6735 or 
         508/493-6735.
******************************************************************************

        re .18 from Mary Madden of the DCU:
        
>         Though we encourage members to set up automatic 
>         deduction to repay all DCU loans...
        
        I bet DCU would get more people to do this if we could pick
        the amount of the deduction.
        

re    <<< Note 216.19 by EXIT26::STRATTON "Playing golf with Eric Clapton" >>>
                           -< Give members a choice >-

>        re .18 from Mary Madden of the DCU:
>>         Though we encourage members to set up automatic 
>>         deduction to repay all DCU loans...
        
>        I bet DCU would get more people to do this if we could pick
>        the amount of the deduction.
 
   Could you elaborate? You can choose the amount that you wish to repay, by
   selecting the appropriate Principal, and repayment period at the start of
   the loan (You don't have a great deal of choice on interest rates, I am
   afraid). There has been a formula posted for calulating repayments etc. I
   have a spreadsheet that does the same...).
   
   Alternatively, if you want to be able  to change your repayments on the
   fly, you take the money from your VISA account instead... The higher
   interest rates balance the DCU's requirement to handle your varying
   payments....
   
   q
   

   

        I thought it worked this way.  Say I owe $1000 on a CRT loan. 
        If I want to do that automatically, DCU will take $50 a month
        from some specified account.  My understanding is that I don't
        have any choice in the amount - it's either $50 (I'm guessing
        at the number) or I do it by hand every month.

    
    When I got my CRT I selected "automatic deduction".  And boy was it
    AUTOMATIC!  Even if I didn't have a balance they would move x dollars
    into a holding subaccount every week that would then be used at the end of
    the month to pay off the balance.  If there was no balance they would
    move it back to savings.  This was a real surprise, especially
    since this holding subaccount bears no interest.  This was years back
    though.  Are they still doing it this way???  Talk about bizarre...
    
    Phil

    re: .22
    
    Neglecting the matter of interest, automatically deducting enough to
    make the maximum payment that could be due isn't really so bizarre. 
    You could borrow to the maximum just before the payment was due and
    find yourself with not enough in the escrow account to cover the
    payment.  DCU covers itself by witholding for the maximum due and
    giving back what is not used each month.  Its very predictable and easy
    to manage.  You always know how much is being witheld each week.  And,
    if you are not extended to the limit you build up a little savings each
    month by not using all of your available LOC.
    
    Interest?  If your monthly witholding is $100/month you are losing about
    $4 in interest a year (assuming an 8% rate).

    
    RE: .23
    
    Why don't they have an option of just taking the entire amount at a
    specified date and let us worry about having the money there.  This is
    how other banks I had previously had accounts with did it.  And they
    use the FULL limit to calculate the amount so the maximum amout is
    always being allocated to this holding account.  
    
    As for the interest, add my $4, to your $4, to other 1,000's of people
    that do this to (or for) and your talking real money.
    
    Is this a common practice at other banks that have "automatic
    deductions"?  Do they also play this shell game or is it lump sum
    transfer from a designated account?
    

    The credit union at my husband's office deducts weekly into the 
    regular savings account, then makes the appropriate transfer on the
    date the payment is due. Until the payment is transferred, the money 
    is available for the customer's use. 
    
    When I had my loan at DCU, my weekly deduction went into a separate
    savings account, which I could not touch. On the date the payment was
    due the transfer was made. They did pay interest on the account (this
    was 6 years ago), and any excess was transferred back into the regular
    savings account monthly. 
    
    My Baybank automatic car payment is deducted from my checking account
    on the due date. As long as the money is there at that time, they don't
    car what I do the rest of the month.
    
    Linda

that the DCU calculates the entire loan amount and duration and then breaks 
it up into monthly payments (normal bank procedure).  Then they divide that 
number by 4 to come up with a weekly deduction.  This deduction is made from 
your paycheck, not your checking/savings account.  Well, some months have 
five weeks, so they take an extra payment out of you paycheck. They then 
transfer this extra back into your savings account after the payment has 
been made.

I suppose it is better than taking one deduction at the end of the month from
one paycheck.  Why they go through the extra bookkeeping of deducting from
your paycheck, putting it in a loan account, making a payment from the loan
account, and putting the rest in savings.  Wouldn't it be easier to deduct from
your paycheck, putting it in your savings account, making a payment from the 
savings account, and leaving the rest there in savings?

What do I know. I don't run a bank (although I some times think I could do a 
better job of it than DCU).

To me, the #1 priority on direct paycheck deductions is that it be the same
amount every week.  One of the two reasons that I dropped MetPay is because
they changed their deduction so many times, sometimes every other week.
I found that far more complicated than I cared to deal with, besides making 
it hard to figure out if they were deducting the correct amount.

I think the DCU puts loan payment payroll deductions into a separate 
account because it makes it easier on them.  That way, they don't have
to deal with the exception case of the savings account not having enough
funds when they try to make the loan payment.  This practice didn't
bother me when I had my car loan.  I think I did get interest on the
reserved funds, and the overage amount was never big enough (or kept
separate long enough) to be any kind of inconvenience.

I wouldn't want to do payroll deductions of my maximum line-of-credit,
though.  In that case, it seems to me that the DCU should let you set
the amount.  They trust us to pay them monthly if you don't have payroll 
deduction.  They should trust us to pay them the extra, or increase our
payroll deduction, when we borrow more from the line of credit.  Of course,
the alternative is simply to do without automatic payroll deduction
for a line of credit.  What I'd prefer in that case is automatic
deduction from my checking or savings account once per month.  If I don't
have the funds to cover it, that's the same as if I didn't send them the
payment.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Perhaps I am expecting too much (and perhaps this belongs in a different note,
Mary's latest reply caused me to put this here), but Mary's comments seem
to me to be nothing more than public relations fluff. Her replies are simply
current policies shoved through some sort of word-smithing machine. I have yet
to find any real value in the comments. Oh sure, sometimes the re-written
policies bring to light something that is missed in the original wording of
the policies. But if you look real close, they say the same thing, just
differently and what she posts is incredibly obvious comments that seem to
be designed to try and simply pacify the readers of this conference.

If she's just gonna regurgitate policies to us in different words, I'd rather
she didn't put anything in here at all. She adds no personal perspective to the
comments she posts. If I want to see that kind of stuff, I'll read the fine
print on DCU statements and other policy papers. Aren't notes supposed to be
for thinking people to post their thoughts? C'mon DCU, let your folks talk
like real people.

Is it me?

-Glenn-

    I have my (non-DCU) mortgage payment deducted automatically from my DCU
    "checking" (technically, it's a "share draft") account on the first of
    each month.  That's a LOT less convoluted than the process for DCU
    loans -- it's up to me to make sure there are sufficient funds to cover
    the withdrawl, but that's kind of a "given" anyway.

    I applied for a DCU visa gold card to get the low interest rate.  I was 
    declined for insufficient income.  I couldn't believe my ears and I 
    went in to question it.  It seems that "DCU POLICY" reared its ugly
    head again... The three income producing real properties that I own
    have had the same tenants for at least 4 years but the DCU only took
    into consideration 70% of the monthly income which I receive from the 
    properties.  This adds up:  $700 per month X 3 = 2100.  2100 x .70 =
    $1470.00.  So according to them, I'm making $630 per month less than
    I stated on the application, indicating insufficient income!! 
    
    Now come on, this is a credit card, I'm not applying for a mortgage to
    buy another house!!  I have perfect credit and plenty of it but was
    denied for the second time in my life by none other than the dcu.
    (Sears denied me a charge card years ago but I was able to get one
    a short while later).
    
    Thanks but no thanks, DCU.  Even at $75.00 per year, my American
    Express gold card gives me the financial freedom and prestige I deserve
    as an excellent credit risk (and no hassles with THAT card approval). 
    
    For most of the employees at Digital, the Digital credit union
    signifies NOT a service organization, but rather a giant hassle.
    
    Jack Mahon                          

re: .30

In a lot of credit unions, you can in effect, appeal your denial to some sort
of credit committee, which can choose to bend the rules.

Bob

>In a lot of credit unions, you can in effect, appeal your denial to some sort
>of credit committee, which can choose to bend the rules.

I wouldn't hold my breath however. Not just with the DCU but with any bank. I
don't think you'll have much luck convincing a credit committee if their
impersonal little formulas don't approve you...

I would go to a more open institution, where they want my business, rather than
bother to fight with a credit committee.

-Glenn-

    
    
    I don't know what limit what limit you asked for,
    
    but the person doing my application for a regular phoned up and said
    that as I had no credit history they couldn't really give me a card.
    After a little haggling though and pointing out that I was a pretty
    good risk and did have a large CD with them, she gave me pretty good
    limit.
    
    Don't despair, find somebody in authority and haggle
    
    Simon 

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 20-Sep-1990, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information. 
    
    Your comments on this response should be posted here or directed to
    to DCU directly at Mary Madden's number (dtn) 223-6735 x207.
        
    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************
         Response to 216.30
         
         DCU's credit granting guidelines have been established 
         to ensure the safety of members' funds that are loaned 
         to other members.  The lending criteria for our VISA 
         card, which is an unsecured line of credit, considers 
         80% of the monthly income generated from rental 
         property.
         
         Our VISA program offers a low interest rate of 14.9% and 
         an annual fee of $12 (Classic) and $18 (Gold).  And, if 
         you charge $2000 in merchandise in one year, your annual 
         fee is waived.  Other financial institutions may 
         maintain different credit granting guidelines, however, 
         it is common for these credit cards to charge a much 
         higher annual fee and interest rate.
         
         (For example, in a recent comparison shop we conducted 
         of 10 area financial institutions, the average credit 
         card Annual Percentage Rate and annual fee was 17.68% 
         and $31.00, respectively).
         
         An American Express gold card annual fee of $75.00 is 
         more than 4 times DCU's present fee.  If DCU were to 
         charge this amount to its 15,000 cardholders, we would 
         generate over $1 million in revenue.  By charging high 
         annual fees and interest rates, larger institutions can 
         take more risks when approving credit lines.
         
         If you have further questions regarding DCU's VISA 
         program, please contact our communications department at 
         DTN/223-6735 or 508/493-6735, x207 or x239.
******************************************************************************

I just received a DCU used auto loan.  It was a very pleasant
experience.  

I applied for a loan specific to a car on Tuesday morning.  On
Wednesday morning, I went to the local (ZKO) branch to find
the results of the application.  The manager was busy, but
when she was free she called me.  Since the previous day, we
had decided to buy a different car.  No problem - loan with
higher amount and longer term were approved right then over
the phone.  Paperwork was ready later in the day and loan
was closed early the next morning without a hitch.

This was very different from my experience in September, '89
when I also got a used car loan.  I think Chuck Cockburn needs
to be given credit for a number of policy changes which have
led to much better customer service in this area.

Collis Jackson

P.S.  I didn't include my social security number on the
application (as I'm becoming more protective of it).  It was
not mentioned.  (Since I'm sure they have it on file, it
probably was next to irrelevant anyway.)

At the end of January, my wife and I applied to refinance our house with DCU.
On March 11th last week, they notified me that the loan was approved and to call
their lawyer to arrange for a closing.  That will occur tomorrow, March 20th.

There were no hassles and no problems.  The rate was locked in at 8.5% as soon
as I was allowed to lock since it had gone from 8.25% to 8.5% since I had made
my initial inquiry.  I just made a call, and the current lowest rate (most
points) is 8.75%.

Re: Last few

Perhaps a bit of perspective might help.  I am NOT running for the
Board of Directors, but the only loan I have outstanding at the
moment is the mortgage on my house.  I don't like being in debt,
either, so the car is fully paid off, the credit cards have a
zero balance at the end of each month, and so on.  I DO have a
home equity line of credit, which has been used extensively for
renovations for the house, but at the moment, that balance is
also zero (until it's time to do some residing!!).

Both the mortgage and the home equity line of credit are with
the same bank, Cambridgeport Savings Bank, because I have
consistently found them to have some of the lowest rates around.

When I started at Digital, I opened an account at the Digital
Employees' Federal Credit Union because it was convenient.  I wanted
to open a checking account and obtain an ATM card, but found that
both were too expensive for my needs (low interest rates, a high
minimum balance for fee-free checking, and most of my ATM use is in
the Cambridge/Somerville area, so each use would cost $1.00).

I simply kept the checking account at Progressive Consumers' Federal
Credit Union.  Sure, they almost went belly-up, but my balances are
far below the maximum insured amount, the minimum balance for checking
is $500, and they don't charge for network ATM use.

Why go to someone who's "competitive", when I can use a credit union
that, while troubled, is still an area leader in service and low
costs?

				- - Steve