Conference unifix::sailing

Hi,
     I grew up spending my summers at several different summer camps. I had 
the opportunity to sail a few different small boats and I think one was a 
Snark, though I'm really not positive. This boat that I think was Snark was 
like a Styrofoam bathtub and sailed like one too. I had no ideas of being 
a performance oriented sailor, but I remember being thoroughly disappointed 
with the performance of this boat. I could make it heel, but I couldn't make
any kind of speed. I think I had had time on a few Sunfish, a Sailfish, 
either of two Paceship 14s and crewed a 470 before I knew even how to sail
(okay, later in my life I bought my own 470 and you will hear me rave about 
the thrill of this boat for the rest of my life!). 
     That Styrofoam bathtub was terribly disappointing and if I had learned
on it I probably wouldn't have gotten hooked as early as I did. I remember
sailing with a friend and telling him the whole time that something was wrong.
That thing, what ever it was, sailed like a dog. Now I'm not sure it was Snark
but if I were to see the creation again I think I'd rather swim.
     If you want to learn the basics of sailing on a boat you will enjoy after
you learn the difference between a reach and a run I'd suggest a Sunfish. A
Sunfish may be a little heavier to try to cartop, but I'm sure you wouldn't
be the first. I think I remember my father carrying one around in the back
of a stationwagon. I'd wager that if not every one, at least 90% of the noters 
here have sailed on a Sunfish in their lives. 
     A Sunfish, if you're not familiar with it, is a lateen rig on an aluminum
spar, usually with a self bailing cockpit. With a mainsheet and a tiller 
you have the basics of sailing in hand. I was going to suggest you pick up
a Want Advertiser and look for a used one. But since I don't know where you're 
from a Want Advertiser may not be available to you. A Sunfish however is 
available over a much greater geographic area, like the planet earth. Do a
dir/title="sunfish" in here and you can even get some good hints as to 
what to look out for when buying one used. (I remember a note discussing
hull weight to determine possible waterlogging.)
     I may be wrong about the Snark being the Styrofoam bathtub, but if it
is, your money would be many times better spent on a used Sunfish at twice 
the price. You could even make you money back if you ever wanted to resell it 
too.

     Good luck, happy sailing whatever you choose
     Geoff

Ron,

You are about to make exactly the decision that got me back into sailing / 
owning my first sailboat of my very own 7 years ago when I saw an ad for
a Super Snark on sale for $399 "delivered". 

The answer, I think, is "that depends". I ended up spending a couple hundred
more than that and bought a used Sunfish, which is still part of my collection
of 5 boats, and which I still use regularly, although I also own a Com-Pac 19
on Winnipesaukee.

Pro Snark:
  o If that is all you are willing to spend, sailing a Snark is infinitely
    better than not sailing.

  o Is weight a big consideration? We cartopped the Sunfish for years - 
    as two reasonably rugged adults, my wife and I were able to wrestle its
    140 lbs. on and off the top of the Toyota. Now I have modified my Com-Pac 
    trailer to make it easier for my kids and I to launch.

  o Here in N.H., it wouldn't have to be registered since it is < 12 ft.

Pro Something bigger (Like a Sunfish)

  o The Sunfish is a lot more boat, which you can sail a lot harder. Some
    of us enjoy sailing Sunfish when the wind is over 20 knots, and our bigger
    boats become a chore to sail.

  o I could sell my Sunfish for the $600 i paid for it anytime (it's an
    early 70's model in v.g. shape.) You would be hard pressed not to lose
    much of the price of a Snark - and you are quite likely to want to
    move up soon.

  o If you dump a Sunfish, you right it (and half of the water pours out
    of its footwell) and sail off, leaving a few gallons for the self bailer
    deal with. People I have seen who dumped a Snark had a significant
    bailing job on their hands before they could sail again as the
    Sanrk was basically full of water.

  o With care, an overbuilt fiberglass boat like a Sunfish will far
    outlast a Snark.

  o Before my 2 kids were teenagers, I put all 4 of us on the Sunfish.
    in light moderate winds where we didn't have to scramble around.
    I don't think you could do that on a Snark

A Snark will get you sailing, that's the important thing. I don't think
there is a "wrong" decision here, only a choice between good/better/best.
I'm happy I went with the bigger heavier more expensive boat.

Bill

    I have owned several small sailboats on my way towards sailing the
    bigger ones.
    
    I currently own a Snark which we use as a toy on the lake during hot
    summer days. Why I bought it and like it is:
    
    .I alone can lift it onto the car without getting a hernia. Very portable.
    .It has three working parts, a rudder, daggerboard, sail. Nothing ever
     breaks.  Absolutely low maintenance and cost!
    .I can take small children (5-10 yrs) in it and be relatively safe and dry.
    .I use it like a canoe (without the sail) for fishing.
    .I get some of the feeling of sailing and my children are starting to
     learn sailing techniques with a very simple, simple boat.
    .It won't capsize. I have taken on water, but not a capsize.
    .The low center of gravity (you sit in it rather than on it) allows my
     kids to feel safe yet also to swim off it.
    .It takes about 7 minutes to set the whole thing up. No launching, need
    for a ramp, etc.
    
    All in all it is a toy, about one step up from an inner tube with a
    sail.  But my kids sure love the fun we have on it because we do not
    take it as serious sailing.
    
    The negatives:
    
    .It does not perform. Although in a good wind I have had some good
    speed out of it.
    .For serious sailors, it is definitely not even a sailboat. 
    .Don't expect to learn serious sailing techniques from it.
    .It's wet, especially it you use it in large waves.  Most wakes from
     speedboats will cause water to come in.  If you buy one, buy the
     optional decking, that really helps to keep water out.
    .As a boat, it is a little laughable, but that is the fun of it. My
    kids and I have a laughable time in it.
    
    Another suggestion: if you want to buy a boat to learn on, but are on a
    small budget.  A few years back, when cartopping a boat was what I
    wanted, rather than trailering, I bought a German-made boat called
    Koralle  or Kalibri. It was 14 feet and sloop rigged with a small jib,
    dagger board, 3 stays, and seats so that you sat in it.  It would 
    accommodate 5 small people, or 3 adults. I used it on a lake, and was very 
    pleased with it.  It had a hull that would plane and could make some
    very good speed in a good wind.  It was a very good family boat and
    really was good for learning sailing skills. The second hand cost was
    $600.
    
    But, you decide what you want.  For me the Snark is cheap, easy,
    convenient, fun, and absolutely hassle free sailing (?) and fun on the
    lake in the summer with my kids.
    
    Paul                           

I've owned 2 boats made by Snark. I believe neither one is the model you
are interested in. I also currently own a sunfish. 

Snark makes boats using different materials than most boatbuilders: Their
hulls are injection-molded plastic, filled with styrofoam.

Advantages:

	very light
	cheap
	easy to manufacture

Disadvantages

	shorter life span
	hard to repair

The first Snark I owned was a Sears Jetwind. I don't know if they still sell
it. It is similar to a Sunfish in size, but about 40% lighter. The
Jetwind was a joy to sail. Two lightweights could lift it off a car and set
it up in minutes. In my opinion, it was an ideal car-topper sailboat.
The boat was pretty, with a red deck and a white hull. I learned to sail
on that boat, by taking it out on a lake with a friend and fiddling
with it until we figured out how to make it go. (We capsized it several times
that day.) If you car-top the boat, and keep it indoors when not in use,
it should last a long time.

The second Snark was a 14' bathtub. I don't remember the model name. It sailed
reasonably well, except it didn't point very high. I kept that boat in the water
on a lake, and it lasted two seasons before it literally fell apart. 

I like my sunfish because it is indestructible (my son has tried repeatedly!).
I keep it in the water 5 months of the year.

My recommendation: stay away from the tub-shaped boats made by Snark. The
structure is not strong enough to withstand normal abuse. If you can find
one of their Jetwind boats, buy one of those. (If you buy from the want ads,
you will get more for your money, but don't buy a Snark product if the hull
shows signs of repairs.)

--RS

    When my kids reached the age to begin to learn to sail(11-12), I was
    living in Vancouver,BC. I got them a Sabot. It is a 8' fiberglass
    dinghy with a centerboard. It affords "dry" sailing, as the water
    temperature up there is a constant 55 degrees. It will accommodate a
    couple of people, hopefully one is relatively small.
    
    After 15 years I still have it and thoroughly enjoy an occasional sail
    around the harbor. It is a good way to refresh your basic sailing
    techniques. It also serves as an ocassional dinghy for my full size
    sailboat.
    
    I don't recall what I paid for it, but it certainly has endured.
    
    Bob

    Thank you all for your comments.  I guess I'll hold off on making a
    rash decision and try renting out until I have a better idea of 
    what would be suitable for me.
    
    I'll continue to peruse this notes file for further suggestions on what
    might be better, and what kind of things to look for in shopping for a
    learner type boat.  Again, thanks.
    
    Ron (who's looking forward to sailing)

    A popular boat in the UK in this size range is the Mirror, designed
    back in the early 60's for simple home-building from marine ply. It was
    the first boat to really the popularise the "stitch-and-glue" building
    method. A number of boats were also professionally built. It is now
    also available with a GRP hull.
    
    Overall, it is 10'10", with a simple gunter rig so that all spars fit
    inside the hull for trailing/car-topping. The hull alone weighs ~100lb,
    and is not too difficult for two adults to put on a car roof.
    
    The mast can be stepped in the "normal" position, when it carries a
    mainsail and jib, or in a "forward" position, when it is balanced under
    main alone. For racing, it can also be rigged with a small spinnaker.
    It is fairly stable without being a complete bath-tub to sail, and is a
    good boat to learn in. A good compromise. There is even some small
    storage space to carry a picnic! The transom will take a small
    outboard, and they are usually fitted with rowlocks for rowing as well!
    
    If it's any guide, I sail mine both single-handed, and with one or both
    of my children (ages 6 and 4).
    
    Is the Mirror known in the US?

    It sounds like the snark has been vetoed.  While most people suggest a
    Sunfish as a good learning boat I would tend to lean toward something
    with better performance.  The boat I had in mind was a laser.  This
    boat has gained a lot of popularity both in the states and world wide. 
    
    It's a fun boat to sail both for the beginner or the more advanced
    sailor.  It is very similar to the Sunfish with respect to its hull
    shape, low boom and simple rigging however it's design makes it a
    faster, higher performance boat.  
    
    It can be an easy boat to tip (especially for the beginner) however the
    practiced "boat tipper" can easily stay dry by jumping onto the center
    board the second before the mast hits the water.  Unless of course
    you're the power jiber who is going for a death roll!
    
    The price of a new laser a year ago was $1400-$1500 but there should be
    used ones around.
    
    An added feature to the boat is that it's a lot of fun to race.  It is
    also a good way to learn how to race.  It is a simple boat to sail with
    only so many things that a skipper needs to worry about and easy quick
    maneuvering for tight situations (such as at a competitive start).  I'm
    from the midwest so I don't know if there as popular around here but
    many of the small lakes at home have laser races where you can get
    involved at all skill levels.
    
    We use these boats in combination with training on Flying Juniors (a
    12' dinghy with jib and main) for our sail instruction program at
    Purdue University Sailing Club.  They have proved very effective at
    teaching people the basics of sail trim, dinghy sailing techniques, and
    introduction to racing.
    
    Tina      (AISG::STEIN)
     

    Yah, I'd like to sail a Laser some time, they do seem like a pretty
    nice boat and not terribly heavy. In air that was calm to moderate 
    they used to keep up with me single handing my 470. When I was shopping
    for a for a dinghy for my larger boat I was keeping an eye on the used
    Lasers, they were all in the $1000 range. I would have been very happy 
    to have picked up a Laser and used it as a tender. Not that I wouldn't
    have used it as a Laser too. If I could have found a dirt cheap Sunfish
    I'd have done that too. 
    
    	I'd like to sail one some time, they look like a hot little boat.
    
    	Geoff
    

    I am looking at getting a small boat to dink around in and teach my
    kids to sail on.  I am considering a LASER as previously mentioned, and
    you can't go wrong there.  The boat can be sailed for run or raced, and
    you will be able to sell and recoup most of your investment if you want
    something else.  Another to consider is the LASER II.  The LASER II is
    a little bigger but has a main and jib both.  This gives you a greater
    instructional opportunity while being able to do all the previously
    mentioned things.