Conference unifix::sailing

    Most of my sailing is done with children.  I have a C&C 27 which
    is a fast comfortable boat.  I have three boys; 7, 12 and 15.  I
    learned to sail on a J22, fast and uncomfortable, with Patrick,
    my oldest son.  He is very good on the foredeck and could handle
    either boat by himself.  Unfortunately he is working and at an age
    when spending a week on a boat is not appealing.  Having him bring
    friends seems to make him more willing to come along now.  
    
    My middle son, Michael, is a good helmsman.  Unfortunately he has
    a tendancy to get seasick.  I still make him wear a life jacket.
    
    Jay, my youngest son, seems to be the one I sail the most with.
     I have taught him how to use the VHF, and how to do some simple
    things with the Loran ( sort of like a voice activated remote).
    He can hold a compass course up to about speeds of about 5.5 knots.
     Above that he gets a little nervous.  I am trying to teach him
    to steer by a visual reference.  However, he is too short and cannot
    see over the cabin.  Recently the two of us sailed from the Jubilee
    Yacht Club in Beverly to Quincy by ourselves.  Jay always wears
    a life jacket and a harness.  He is real good about it.  He has
    been out in a variety of conditions.  NOTE:  I also wear a harness
    when I sail with just him.  We run a jack line down the side of
    the boat.  If i go over the side a seven year old can not come back
    and pick me up.  He knows how to release the sails and use the VHF.
    
    The risk in sailing only with Children is not so much to the child.
     Most people will make sure that the child is adequately protected.
     The risk is to the adult.  Realize that you could slip, even on
    the calmest of days and go over the side.  Now imagine that you're
    five miles off Marblehead neck, on a weekday with nobody around,
    and it happens.  Pretty scarery.
    

    We put safety netting around our last boat (a 25') from the lifeline
    to the deck.  This was mainly for our (then) 3 year old son who
    also wore a lifejacket.  We really appreciated the stuff ourselves
    as it turns out.  It was never tested with our son, but managed to
    keep a leg or two and any number of tools and parts on board over
    the years.
    
    Our son (and visiting children) all seemed to overcome any initial
    concern with their sanity and safety after we explained what a sail
    boat does followed by a demonstration with the adults visably having
    a good time.    For instance:  We would explain heeling before we
    left then go out and put the rail in the water (along with some
    hooping and cheering).   Everything came easily after that.
    
    We have found kids attention span is short but intense. We taught
    Justin a lot in the first hour or so of each sail, but he would
    begin looking for other entertainment after that.  We always keep
    kids books, drawing paper (pencils not crayons), and one and two
    person kids games (mostly card type games) on board.  We also
    make it a point to make anchorages with an accessable shoreline
    whenever possible and get the kid(s) ashore for an hour or so each
    day.  Justin loves the shoreline (not sandy beaches actually, the
    more things that wash up the better he likes it) and learned to
    row the dingy quite well by age 7 so he could go ashore on his own.
    
    He wore a life jacket full time when topside untill he proved he
    was able to swim completely around the boat unaided. Then we only
    required it on deck underway untill (thru the YMCA) he demonstrated
    ability to tread water for 7 minutes (their measure for FLYINGFISH).
    Now we only have him wear the jacket when alone in the dingy or
    when we put on jackets and harnesses underway.
    
    He was given responsibilities commensurate with his abilities since
    his first sail.  This year he took the helm for an hour while offshore,
    went up the mast, and motored in and out Warwick cove (following
    nav marks and observing boat-boat etiquite) for the first time.
    He will be 11 in September.
    
    Kids can be great fun on the boat, but they need their space and
    a chance to be just kids every day.

    Enjoy!
    
    Walt

    My kids started sailing with me when they were 2 and 4 respectively.
    They now have three years experience.  I have a couple of suggestions
    to consider.
    
    1) I require they wear harnesses.  My theory is I do not want a
    kid overboard even if they have a life jacket.  I set up the lines
    in the cockpit so they can freely move around but not go beyond
    it.
    
    2) Do not underestimate what can happen when at a dock or mooring.
     In that case we require life jackets.  We had one incident where
    the youngest fell in the water when getting off the boat without
    permission.  Luckily we had a very responsive crew member who rescued
    him.  He was 3 at the time.  
    
       We now only allow them out to move around with a life jacket
    and an adult outside to observe.
    
     3)  I also recommend netting.  Lifelines are often to high to protect
    children.
    
    
    	On the fun side of things.  Children have a shorter attention
    span.  So we usually plan some activities to keep them occupied
    when we are sailing.  We also give them each things to do to 
    participate.  Often something that seems small to us is a big 
    deal to a youngster.  
    
    	Happy sailing
    

    If anyone's interested I have an infant size (up to 30lb?) life
    jacket, of the doughnut collar and vest type, that I do not expect
    to need again. (what is it they say about not ever selling the crib
    and outgrown baby clothes as a form of birth control?)
    
    In regards to sailing with kids, I had some friends several years
    ago that took a sabbatical and proceeded to sail around the world
    on their 32' sloop.  Three months out of Noank, they discovered
    they were pregnant, hauled the boat in Australia to scrape bottom
    and drop son who then spent the first year of his life on board
    heading back through Indian Ocean, Suez, Med. etc.  I remember when
    they reached shore in Noank and we had a big party.  The baby had
    developed a way of sitting on the floor with his ankles sort of
    locked together to stabilize himself, despite the fact that the
    dining room floor was apparently dead-flat calm.
    

Our kids, Nicholas (7) and Meagan (10) started their sailing when newborn
and 1yr old respectively.  Some of it has been in daysailors, some in 30+'
sailboats, but the vast majority of the time has been in our own 22.  

We have no netting, and have never used harnesses.  Lifejackets are required
while topside, but not below.  (The "not below" means having to regularly
remind them to put it on when they come back up.)  This summer we have slacked
off on the Lifejackets when they are seated quietly in the cockpit and it is not
too windy, or while we are anchored.  In the past we were more religious. We
require they be worn always while in the dinghy.

I concur with the previous note that their attention span is short.
Short sails, 2hrs or so, to an island, beach or other place where they can
get off and play have been most accepted by them.  Longer sails bring on the
"I'm bored" or even worse, "let's roughhouse".  My daughter has always been
able to amuse herself by coloring or playing with her dolls or reading below.
My son likes more active activities.  An assortment of things to do, such as a 
new set of crayons, activity books, matchbox cars, etc will give them something
to pass the time while you get to where you're going.

Other activities are dangling feet over the side, spotting jellyfish, picking up
seaweed, wavejumping (sitting on the foredeck when we pass over the wake of a
large boat), etc, etc.  

We try to spend weekends on the boat weather permitting, and the routine has
been to leave Sat am, sail a couple hrs to island, anchor, eat lunch, spend
afternoon ashore swimming, exploring, playing in dinghy, dinner, family
games, sleep, more rowing, breakfast, more ashore, lunch, sail home.  Note
the low ratio of undersail hrs to total hrs.  After many years of short and
very short trips, we have stretched out our sails to 3-5hrs non-stop and
thus expanded our inventory of places to go to.  They both love going sailing,
but what the best part for them is not necessarily being under sail.

Because I have spent quite a bit of time sailing with them alone due to my 
wife's work schedule, I rely on their help in getting underway, making lunch,
relieving me at the tiller for sail changes, anchoring drills, etc, getting
charts and other things from below, and so on.  Most of the time they are
eager to learn and participate, sometimes they would rather just stay below
and play.  Both can now steer the boat in a straight line in all but the
gustiest of conditions, although beating in a strong wind or running dead down
is risky.  In that case I get onto a reach before turning it over to one of
them.  (It has to be ONE of them;  both in the cockpit trying to steer is a
guaranteed disaster!)

At anchor, rowing the dinghy and playing in the water are the biggest hits.
Both started rowing our 8' plywood dinghy alone at age 5 with it tethered on a
50' painter.  The next summer they got off the tether, but could not go more 
than 100' from the boat.  By the age of 7 we allowed them to row anywhere 
within our sight if it was calm/no current. 

Neither has really gotten seas*ck but both have on occasion complained that
their stomach hurt.  Without mentioning the word, we suggested that they lie
down and rest and after a short nap they seemed cured.

I agree with the previous note that suggests that there is a window of 
opportunity in sailing with children.  Under the age of three they are a LOT
of work.  Over a certain age they would rather not go because they have too
many shoreside interests.  I haven't hit this age yet, but I can see it coming 
with my 10yr old, so I'd guess it was around 12-13.  Sailing with kids between
the ages of 4 and 11 though is just a tremendous amount of fun and extremely
rewarding.

     Travis

    to appreciate the fun of sailing with kids, you have to have tried
    conoeing with them first.  two years ago, when our twins boys were
    only 2, we started canoeing [ a14' mad reiver winnooski, for sale]
    and in the middle of the summer, we bought a o'day daysailer.  the
    kids, then 3 were impossible and since i didn't know how to sail
    at all, the whole event was not pleasurable.  at the beginning of
    the summer we bought a 21' shoaldraft cat-rigged sailboat. we bought
    the cat-rig knowing that it could be singlehanded, leaving one adult
    over to watch the 4 year olds.  what happened was not expected.
    
    with someone around to spend some time with them, read a book, find
    their crayons and sit and watch the other boats, waterskiers,fishermen
    etc, they stopped being baggage and became mini-passengers and almost
    the crew.  one of the boys likes to sit in the cockpit with his
    hand on the tiller [particularly when motoring] and play CAPTAIN.
    other guy stands in the cabin with his little head sticking out
    of the forward hatch acting out his fantasy of being a pirate king.
    
    each guy gets a chance to fish when we anchor, they pick the lunch
    spot and we've even gotten them to accept the fact that they will
    take a quick nap after lunch.
    
    its an absolute [well, not quite absolute] pleasure
    
    the boat was bought to increase our time together outdoors away
    from the tv and phone, and it has done that.  as soon as we stopped
    thinking we were out there practicing for the Americas cup, and
    just were having a good time together, the weekends became a lot
    more fun.
    
    the guys always were lifejackets, whether in cockpit or cabin, and
    are not allowed to climb to the forward sections of the boat [we
    have no lifelines or netting].  we've gotten a handheld vhf
    [emergencies only i hope, its really useless for much else], and
    a horseshoe and throw rope, never yet used.
    
    i'm certain the little people would rather have a miami vice cigarette
    power boat, but i know that they look forward to our weekend
    excursions.
    
    it could be fun, just let the kids particpate\
    
    good luck
    
    joe

    Just finished our first season sailing with my 2 sons, ages 5 and
    10. A few suggestion:
    
    Make sure their lifejacket are well fitted and comfortable. I couldn't
    get the older one to keep his on because it would ride up when seated.
    Brought a new one and made sure it fit no matter what he did.
    
    Give them a space of their own. The younger one would offen play
    or sleep in his quarter berth without attention.
    
    Leggo's, coloring book, and a special toy for each.
    
    We did have a TV aboard which they to watch for 1 hour before sleep
    and the first thing in the morning, provided my wife and I an extra
    wink or two.
    
    plently of simple foods
    
    With the above supplies, we spent 10 days aboard our 26 ft sloop
    and enjoyed every minute.

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Note 1183.0                   Sailing with infants.                   No replies
CURIE::ELLISON                                       10 lines  20-APR-1989 13:07
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    Has anyone had any experience sailing with infants and/or small
    children?  We own a Bristol 29.9 which we keep in Marion.  This
    summer we will have our six month old son aboard.  Last summer we
    flagged down any families we saw sailing with young children.  They
    all agree that it is a wonderful experience for the kids and the
    whole family.
    
    What I am looking for are specifics on what to do with the baby
    while underway, i.e. carseat, snuggli, .....?   Has anyone seen
    or invented any creative solutions?

    RE .8
    
    From my hazy memory of when my son was 4 mos and daughter 3 yrs
    old, and we daysailed with friends nearly everyweekend, I seem to
    recall that one of us had the baby in our arms almost all the time,
    and since my wife was new to sailing at the time, it was usually
    her.  She now looks back on those times with fond memories, but
    I seem to recall her thinking it was an awfull lot of work at the
    time.  Because it wasn't our boat we obviously didn't go to any
    lengths to rig up a baby area where he could nap, except when we
    were at anchor. Our son slept incredibly well both underway and
    at anchor.
    
    Last summer friends with a 6 mos old baby went out with us for a
    day and they kept their daughter in one of those baby seats down
    in the cockpit footwell, or next to them, and that worked really
    well.  Down below I wouldn't use the seat (too hard to prop up),
    but would try to use a leecloth and extra cushions arrangement to
    keep her from moving around too much.
    
    It will be lots of work, but it also will be worth it.
    
    Travis Belton

>    Has anyone had any experience sailing with infants and/or small
>    children? 

We sailed with our son from about 6 months to 3 yrs. When he was 6 months,
he seemed to be happiest (and safest) on the cabin floor. (Running the
engine seemed to be a reliable method for putting him to sleep!)
When he was older, we made him wear a harness whenever he was on deck. If
he stayed in the cockpit, or on the low side, he was reasonably safe from
a serious fall. (Keeping him from bumping his head on things was the major
safety concern since he wasn't too coordinated at that age...)
Even when he was older, he liked to spend his time playing with his toys
on the cabin sole. (He also enjoyed throwing stuffed toys over the rail.)

--RS

    Our daughter has lived aboard since she was born (she's 2 1/2 now).
    When she was an infant we would hold her in a snuggli. This, of course
    meant that the person holding her was not available to crew. When she
    out grew the snuggli she sat in her car seat in the footwell until she
    would no longer tolerate that. Then came the infant life jacket and a
    short reign on a harness. 
    
    Sailing would usually put her to sleep in a very short time.
    Fortunately, she had her crib below. She has never been bothered by
    seasickness when below (as is my wife).
    
    I never put up netting. A friend has it on his boat and it seems to get
    in the way and is more of a hinderance than a help. We always sailed
    with enough people on board so that one person could be dedicated to 
    keeping a close eye on the kids. I think that's important. If someone
    doesn't have the specific job of watching out for the children its very
    easy to get wrapped up in other things and lose track of them and, as
    I'm sure you know, it only takes an instant for something to happen.
    
    She's getting to the age now where she can comprehend what's going on
    and I am looking forward to sailing with her this season.
    
    Andy Stangel
    Leaky Teaky

    All five of mine wound up sailing as infants.  Charlie began at
    one month old since he was born in August.  He spent his time in
    one of those little hamocks that are used to stow gear.  Wrap the
    kid up in a blanket or "sleeper", hang the hamock from the overhead,
    pop him/her in it and tie it together with sone shock cord.  He
    tended to howl for a while and then would sleep for hours.  He's
    twenty-six now and still has a thing about hamocks.  
    
    Better still, arn't there boarding kennels that could make life
    easier?

Both of my kids, now teenagers, were sailing at 6-8 months. We simply stuffed 
them between the sailbags in the forepeak. Mostly they liked the spinnakers,
but even a jib bag was OK. THis was on A Folkboat in Buzzards Bay.

BY all means take the kids sailing- my son was rowing sliding seats by 6, and
paddling kayaks at 7. I built him an 11' Peapod with a spritsail at about 8.

    RE: .4    "infant lifejacket FOR SALE "
                                            
    I still have it if anybody's interested.

    
    					dja (formerly SWSNOD::RPGDOC)
                
                

My daughter's 5 (going on 16 as I tell everyone) and has sailed with us
since she was 2 1/2 months.  The easiest was when she was under 6 months
as all we had to do was make her comfortable on the cabin floor.  Diaper changes
were always fun while heeling at 25+ degrees!

Each year I've found that we have to find something new for her to enjoy while
underway.  She loves whatever time we spend at the beach and the dinghy was a
big hit last year.  Sometimes the simplest things will amuse kids for hours on
the long runs.  Do plan on including them in whatever activities you can.

This year Santa brought her a pair of binoculars and a fishing rod.  During the
season I plan on adding a (magnetic) checkers game to her "boat toys".  Oh yes,
she's got a toy box (bag) that stays on the boat all season along with a few
stuffed animals that "stand guard" while the boat's left on the mooring.  Having
a separate set of toys on the boat is better than lugging them back and forth
from home.  It also gives her something to look forward to.

A portable (tape) cassette recorder has really been a plus since she was 2.  We
keep a stash of story books and related tapes onboard.  On occassion we
put in blank tape and let her record her own version of a story.  (An extra
supply of batteries is a must!)  Barbie dolls have also been a big hit.

We expect that she'll get bored with sailing in the coming years unless we can
get her involved in running the boat.  This year we promised to give her a few
opportunities to steer the boat.  I'm REALLY looking forward to her learning to
row the dinghy!

Rules on our boat for her include:  
	o The deck is off-limits for now
	o A life-jacket is required in the cockpit when underway
			(also on the launch, or in the dinghy)
	o Harness is worn as conditions warrant or on really hot
		days in lieu of the life jacket.
	o Naps/"quiet time" each day!

Most important, do the best you can to make this activity the most enjoyable for
ALL members of the family.  This includes planning a few weekends/trips without
kids too!

bc
(A.K.A. DAD)
	

    Thanks for the info on sailing with infants.  It sounds as if I
    need a person on board dedicated to holding the baby while we're
    underway.  The other approach would be to find a person to crew
    so that I could hold the baby.  We have put an ad for in the Presto
    Press in Mattapoisett for a young person who could fill one or the
    other role.  My preference is for the person interested in sailing
    with some occasional baby sitting duties if my husband and I want
    to go to dinner while in port.  
    
    Does anyone know of anyone who would be interested in doing this
    weekends and possibly two weeks in August?  It could
    be a fun summer "job".  That brings up another question; What should
    we offer to pay this person?  It seems as if it could almost be
    a wash of fun and work for the right person.  Any thoughts on this?
                                               

    Re: Sailing with infants...
    
    Our first was born June 2.  She was a big baby (9 lbs, 11oz) and
    sleeps well.   We have had her on the boat since she was about 3 weeks
    old and have taken the following steps for her and us:
    
    	1.  An infant life jacket was given to us and we have it nearby.
    	    Its still large, but we have tried it on her (now six weeks)
    	    and it would work if it had to.  (She hates wearing it though)
    
    	2.  We always bring our dingy with us (just in ca) to avoid her
    	    having to rely on thejacket.
    
    	3.  We feed her around 11:30 and she seems to sleep until 4:00,
    	    which allows us to sail without more than a peek below at 
    	    her.
    
    	4.  We did not use a hammock but inserted the cushion which made
    	    our dinette into a double bed and then led cushions around
    	    her so she would not roll around.  (I've been tempted to
    	    put her in a velcro sleeper...) 
    
    	5.  We have a thermos of hot water ready and formula in the ice
    	    box.  When needed we mix them and they are just the right
    	    temperature for her.   
    
    	6.  No long trips this season with her.  We will wait until next
    	    season before we take her with us to MV or BI.
    
    	7.  Watch the dampness.  On occasion we have had to put on a 
    	    heater in the boat rather than have cool damp air come in the
    	    boat through open hatches.  
    
    I will be making a "modified hammock" in the future as I have found
    some grimacing happening when we are heeling.  Some gimbaling of the
    baby while she is sleeping is best I think.   I have some spare
    sunbrella cloth and will be making a cloth "crib" which swings like
    a hammock.  The sides will be high enough to ensure she cannot fall
    and it will not have the string like qualities of the hammock which
    would seem to hurt delicate skin.
    
    So...  we've modified our sailing a bit (no more winches in the water
    for a while..), but we still enjoy our boat and feel it best to get
    the little one involved as soon as possible.
    
    Rick
    
    *  Who can't wait for his daughter to be old enough to turn a winch
       or heave a line to help her father.
    
    
    

    We recently went out on a social sail (as opposed to racing) with
    a bunch of folks that included two infants, one six months and one
    eighteen months old.  Both were awake and active the whole afternoon.
    The six month old was exponentially easier to deal with.  Less mobile
    and more content to just stare at the water and laugh.  The older
    one was naturally curious about everything and all the shiny toys
    just out of reach.  She took a tumble down the companionway and
    the mother instructed us not to show any sympathy that would encourage
    a fuss.  My point is that babies are real easy when they are less
    than a year or so and get tougher to sail with until they are four
    or five (or eighteen?).  Take advantage of the situation.  The baby
    won't know or care if you bury the rail.  Just lodge the kid someplace
    secure.  At that age they ain't going anywhere.  I think it's great
    that she is getting her sailing in early.  
    
    Dave

    
    It's been several years since anyone has added anything to this note.
    
    My wife and I are planning a trip this summer for 10 days and are
    looking forward to taking our grand-daughter (who will be one year old
    when we go), as well as the baby's parents as our price for being able to
    take the baby.
    
    We've picked up some good ideas here.  
    
    Does anyone have any new ideas or suggestions to add?  
    
    Our daughter-in-law tends to sea-sickness, our son doesn't.  In your
    experience, are babies less susceptible than adults?
    
    Regards,
    
    Bruce
    

> are babies less susceptible than adults?
    
I think so, but I don't have any real evidence, except that our son had
no trouble with it when an infant, but then he has no trouble now either...
    
--RS

    My son, now 15 years old, has been sailing since he was 2.  He enjoys
    sailing but does, and always has, got sea sick.  As a small tot, he
    would get sick, vomit, and them ask "what's to eat". Now he just lays
    on deck and groons.  My point is that I think pride gets in his way
    from relieving himself and so he remains sick for a longer period of
    time. Just a guess.

    sea-sickness seems to be person related not age related. Our 6yr old
    has been sea sick 3 times a year for 5 years.... while the 3 yr old
    never is.
    
    The 6yr old doesn't like going below, prefers it on deck, and has
    been seasick "on her own" for about 2 years (meaning "I feel sick", she
    is sick, "Can I have a biscuit please"). before that there was quite a
    lot of clearing up to do!.
    
    The 3yr old loves being below, reading, playing with Duplo bricks (the
    smaller Lego gets lost too easily), or just having his teedy tied on a
    piece of cord so he can throw him over the side of the bunk, and then
    pull him back in again.
    
    
    Tips:
    	Children like to join in the bits at both ends of the trip -
    mooring, dinghies, buoys, marinas, crab catching etc etc - so allow
    them to do this, tire them out, and then you can enjoy the sailing
    while they sleep.
    
    	A one year old is awkward! - too old to stay still in their cot,
    but not old enough to balance and move around on their own. We found
    that many books were required, and they were passed from knee to knee
    and talked to and read to.... until they fell asleep. The fresh air
    seems to be great at that!

    I hate to be negative about this but one significant reason why I
    powerboat and don't sail much anymore was having children.  The short
    attention span of children seems to improve when there is a known short
    term objective (i.e., we're going *somewhere*), or if the scenery moves
    faster, and if the water "does" more things (wakes, movement).
    
    This is mostly a problem in the 4-9 year range.   Younger than that and
    it doesn't matter what you're on.  Older than that and they start to
    appreciate just being on the water.