Conference unifix::sailing

    
    
    	Other news the Flying Dutchman is out and the Laser is in as its 
    replacement for 1996.  In addition the Laser class will not sail
    typical Olympic Triangle courses.  It has been decided that they will
    use slalom courses instead.  This boat choice is supposed provide a low
    cost yacht for other nation to use.  The course change was to make it
    more interesting for T.V. audiences.  What T.V. coverage is beyond me I
    know of none in the U.S. and I asked a friend in France and he said
    they have had almost no coverage.  Couple minutes of windsurfing and
    tornado showing them winning the Gold.

    	Other rumor is that only the top 30 in any class will be allowed to
    compete.  The exception is if they are unranked but win a major sailing
    powers Olympic trials.  Additionally, the mill has it that 1996 is it
    for sailing in the Olympics.


    Forrest

    A quick look at the results seems to indicate that a "local boat" is a
    good one to put a bet on for winning the Gold!
    
    Better training, better boats, better people?? or just an understanding
    of the type of training that was neded based on where the Olympic races
    would be held??

    I give up.  What's a "slalom" course?
    
    Doug.

    
    	I got no details on what it would look like.  As a guess probably 
    something like the figure 8 that is used in many windsurfing events. 
    As I hear more I will try and update this note.  But I do not expect
    any more details for a while.
    
    
    Forrest

    Lasers to replace FDs - that's a bit disappointing.
    
    Which Laser ? surely not the Laser I, then with the FINN, and EUROPE
    there would be 3 single handers.
    
    Why not 5o5's
    
    Paul

    RE: .2

    	I would not draw quite that simple an assumption.  Spain has
    traditionally been a fairly strong Olympic sailing nation.  They had a
    local regatta for moral and training, and their results reflected that. 
    From the skimpy reports that I heard the conditions were not anything
    like what was expected or typical for the location and time of year.  I
    am not sure how good a site Tybee (sp?) Island off of Georgia will be. 
    Best guess is it will be a light wind specialists regatta.



    Forrest

    
    RE: .5
    
    	I believe that it is the Laser I not the Laser II.  I expect that
    the 505 fails the cost test or some other obscure but politically
    important criteria.  They are also trying to have event host nation
    supply as many of the boats as possible.  The theory is this makes it
    even more of a pure sailing contest than letting them bring their own
    boats.  Remember the choice of boats courses etc are tied up in
    politics of the IOC, and the IYRU.
    
    
    	I follow a internet conference dedicted to Lasers and they are
    upset at the choice of the Laser.  Typically selection as an olympic
    class boat is a kiss of death for the class.  The IYRU gains control
    over the boat certification process etc.  Laser parts became expensive
    enough when the company was bought last year by North Sails, Gary
    Jobson, the Johnstone family and others.  They expect the selection as
    an Olympic boat will driver the costs higher and introduce a technology
    war looking for lighter stiffer hulls, better spars, quicker foil
    shapes, new and better sail etc.
    
    Forrest

    RE: .1
    
    Don't forget -
    
    Women's Sailboard
    1. New Zealand (Barbara Kendall)
    2. China (Xiaodong Zhang)
    3. Netherlands (Dorien De Vries)
    4. France (Maud Herbert)
    5. United States (Lanee Butler
    
    
    Star
    1. United States (Mark Reynolds and Hal H?)
    2. ?
    3. ?
    
    On the Laser issue I read that it was part of a proposal by U.S.
    Sailing that also included replacing the Lechner board with the Mistral
    One-design and Tornado with co-ed Hobie 18.  Has it actually been
    approved now by IYRU?
    
    Don

    re .0
    
       Good to see the USYRU, a.k.a. US SAIL did so well. These are 
    results from several years of effort putting together a solid training 
    program. Not sure about local waters, may have been competitors did not
    want the risk falling into those local waters. American Sailor had 
    several reports of the pollution problems the harbor ;>(
    
       Two weekends ago, Jeff Duncan and myself helped with the New England
    Alter Cup competition. The winner gets to compete in the Alter Cup
    finals. The winner is the US SAIL mulithull champion. If you win the 
    year of an Olympics, you are the US entry. The racing was really close
    no matter what kind of a boat they sailed on (at the divisional level,
    it is a BYOB event). Some of these guys chewed up "Professional
    Sailors" like there was nothing to it. It was great to have a race
    with nothing but pride on the line. After all the whining in San Diego,
    it was refreshing to say the least. If you get a chance to race in a
    local qualifing event for the Olympics, you should try it out. It is
    fun to hobnob with the "GREATS" of your class, even if you only see
    them at the starting line ;>)
    
    john
       In 1996, the Tornado will be replaced with the standard Hobie 18.
    The IHCA lobbied the IYRU and got this. Again, a cheap boat that is
    available all over the world (and the fact Hobie Cat is willing to 
    build 40-50 identical boats for the games, and then sell them through
    their dealers).
    

I'm glad to see that popular boats like the Laser and H-18 are replacing 
arcane and increasingly rare Olympic boats --- regardless of performance 
comparisons.  Who really sails those boats anymore?

Having raced boat catamarans and Lasers, I'd rather see races opened up to the 
larger number of popular boats - maybe it will help increase the popularity of 
sailing in the Olympics.  When I lived in Florida, I knew an alternate for the 
Tornado class who sailed Nacras and the newer Prindles.  He liked the performance
of the larger Tornado but rarely sailed the boat. Before the Tornado 
nationals, he dusted off his old boat and sailed it in open classes against the 
local Hobbie fleet - there just wasn't any competition and the Tornado is a 
delicate boat that trailers badly.  

Why not bag the Finn - that's a strange, strange boat.  And maybe swap the Soling
for a J-24. I guess I'm not a traditionalist...


Bob

Rumors can come true BUT no decicion is taken yet. The IYRU's CPOC meeting is in
the beginning of November. Then decisions will be final.

Many of this type of rumors are spread by some staff of the IYRU. It's more or
less there wishlist. Many of there items are NOT supported by sailor who
actually run olympic campains. Most of the new yachting features are setup to
build carries of the IYRU staff NOT for the sailor.

Read (if you not already done so) THE LORD OF THE RINGS published in the UK by
Simon and Jennings. US title can be INSIDE TRACK:POWER, MONY AND DRUGS INSIDE
THE MODERN OLYMPICS.

<QUOTE>(Stuart H. WALKER)
This book details the corruption of the International Olympic Committee and
exposures the willingness of that organization and the major sports federations
to sacrifice the interests of the worlds athletes in the persuit of power and
money - for those organizations who run them. It's a sorry story and much of the
IYRU recent preoccupation - with eligibility, contractual arrangements with the
international classes, provided boads, the IYRU worlds, rights to events,
logo's, words - resembles that of the IOC. 

Unfortunately, the lesson (Well stated in the lord of the rings) that the public
is being turned off by this behaviour - and that, because of their venal
overtones and their increasing professionalism, the olympic (and other proposed
new sporting spectacles) may engender progreeively less published interest (and
less sponsorhip) seem to go unrecognized).
<ENDQUOTE>

Ruud.

PS

What is the advantage of the J24 above the Soling?

R

> PS

> What is the advantage of the J24 above the Soling?

> R

	My 2 pence worth...

	1 - Much more commonly sailed

	2 - More in touch with modern-day sailing.
	
	If the olympic dropped all the current classes, the Star & FD
	would dissapear from the International scene immediatly, and
	I don't think the Tornado, Soling and Finn would be far behind.

	My Olympic classes, if it was my choice...

	J24
	Etchells 22
	One Design International 14
	Laser
	A high-tech Cat ( I don't know enough about the choices )
	A board ( ditto )

	I think there should also be a commitment to keep up to date, to
	ring the changes every 2 or 3 years.

	Chris

    It's interesting that you picked the E-22. Both the Soling and E-22 
    were designed for the Olympics, competing for the same spot. The
    Soling won the selection.
    
    For years after, the E-22 was a great boat sailed in small numbers.
    The class continued to grow slowly and has attained an elite status.
    But the E-22 is more of a US boat than an international class.
    
    I think the J/24 would be a poor olympic boat. The class rules require
    lots of cruising/safety equipment to be carried. For example: you must
    carry 4 berth cushions, 2 gallons of water, day and night signaling
    equipment, 4 hp outboard motor and 2 gal of fuel, droge, hacksaw,
    fire extinguisher, battery, anchor, throwable PFD in the cockpit, etc..  
    This doesn't make sense in Olympic racing.
    

    I suggested the J-24, not because it is the best and only medium sized
    boat, but rather it is extremely popular around the world.  There are
    considerable more J-24s than Solings.  Walk around the docks in, say
    Southern France, and count the J-24s.  Even with restrictive class
    rules, I'd rather see a J than a declining old Soling.
    
    The same argument would hold for Lasers, Hobie-18s, etc. There are
    certainly faster alternatives (the belated Force-5, Nacras, etc.), but
    the popularity of these boats insures that the boats have the maximum
    exposure to the sailing public.  Maybe the argument is based on market
    economics rather than class acceptance. I don't like the Olympics
    artificially proping up class boats that are rarely sailed around world
    such as the Tornado or Finn.  I'd rather see the Olympics appeal to
    either the (1) more popular boats attracting the widest number of
    sailors, or (2) go the other direction and choose the fastest boat
    relative to size, etc.
    
    Continuing along this line, I was also glad to see the old 12 meters
    bagged for the America's cup (although what they replaced them with
    maroons the sport to the wealthy).

I do not think that numbers of boats in the docks are a good lead to determin
the next generation of olympic classes. People who run olympic campains are not
interested in that type of compitition.

as for an anology.

there are milions of people who are jogging on saterday morning in a park.
compared with that there are only a few who practice the 800 meters. But
jogging in the park is not a replacement for the 800 meters at the olympic.

The skils of every crewmember on a olympic class (IYRU people want us to speak
of equipment) should be tested to the limit. And this is exactly what soling's
does.

Rudy

    RE .15
    
       Have to disagree Rudy
    
    
    A more proper analogy is that people watch the olympics for track and
    field because they jog. It attracts a large audience. While darn few
    people care about syncronized swimming or fencing since few people do it.
    At the same time, the 800 metre or longer races have more interest now
    than lets say 15 year ago. 

    I like the analogy in .15.  Most non-sailors think sailing, like
    fencing and equestrian events are elitist sports. The number of
    participants as well as the followers of those sports is pretty sparse,
    I imagine.
    
    Using more popular boats won't change sailing's image any time soon. 
    Still, as a sailor, I can't get too excited about some of the classes
    that are used since I can't identify with these boats and moreover,
    can't fathom why they race some of the boats they do when there are
    so many better boats (either faster or more abundant) around.
    
    Bob  

Bob,

I'm trying to setup a match race in the netherlands between a soling and a j24.

According to the yartstick's the j24 should be the faster boat but probably less
manouverable. So the outcome can be interesting.

Rudy

	The New Zealand Yachting Federation leaves for London to select the
classes for 1996 this week. Some 25 countries get a vote.
	The classes that NZYF are supporting remain unchanged except to replace
the soling for the J24. They where going to favour the laser over the finn
but decided against it as NZ have done quite well in the finn over the years.

	There are no J24's in New Zealand anyone know what sort of price they 
are?

    
    	Ten year old boats in claimed racing trim fetch over 10,000 dollars
    U.S.  The last time I looked at a new one from a dealer it was over
    30,000.  This was box stock with and a no sails....  Add in the time or
    dollars to fair the keel, a good set of sails, and other goodies. This
    is probably not all that bad when compared to a Soling....  I wonder
    how the J24 class association feels about getting their boat dragged
    into the Olympic class circus....  I know that the grass roots Laser
    racers I know of hated the idea of the Laser as and Olympic class boat.
    
    
    Forrest

re .19

The price of a NEW Soling in race condition without sails and trailer is
US$ 23.900. Trailer will cost you about 4000 and a set of sails about 5000.

So compleet equiped with the best materials a Soling cost about 33.000 US$.

The avarage age of the soling fleet in the Olympics was 2.9 year. During the
1990 worlds it was 5.4 years. The boat that won second place was about 8 years
old.

Cost of ownership per year excl. travel and expences. for teams that are NOT
running a olympic campain but do sail the europeans wordls and some major
regatta's in europe, consists of the yearly duties for yachtclubs storrage
and taxes this is related to your local situation, one main evry two years, one
out of two jibs per year, one large spinnaker evry two years and a mini
spinnaker evry 4 of 5 years. Plus the normal boat maintanance.
It cost me to sail each year four international events, Worlds, European, SPA
and Hyeres Plus about 9 national regatta's and training weekends about US$ 5000.

I know that the price of a NEW J24 no sails No trailer is about US$ 45000.

Rudy

    The price of a brand new J/24 today is : Base boat $25K
                                             Sails and electronics $3-4K
    
    The real issue is: what's the cost of a competitive boat. There 
    appears to be no loss of hull rigidity with well maintained older
    boats. The worlds and NA titles have been won by old boats and rebuilt 
    gunkyard boats as well as new ones. 
    
    The cost of a good competitive used boat is about $12K.
    
    Paul

    Any news yet on Olympic boat selections.  I'm especially interested in
    the sailboard class.  Will they keep the Lechner or move to the Mistral
    One-Design?  By the way you could get 4 complete new Olympic boards for
    the price of a used J-24.  Just a thought.
    
    Don

    re: .22  
    
>    boats. The worlds and NA titles have been won by old boats and rebuilt 
>    gunkyard boats as well as new ones. 
    
    The J-24 Worlds are going on right now in Annapolis. After 2 (of 6)
    races, Ken Read is in 1st place with 1-2 finishes. To quote from a
    story on him this Sunday:
    
    Read, the three time champion, totally refitted a 1981 J-24 last
    winter, named it "Mookie" and spent the summer tuning up for the
    championship.
    
    Read said as a result of the beating and banging they take, the
    moderately priced little racers are called "bumper boats" by their
    crews. "The skippers decided from the start they didn't care what the
    boats looked like. When I was a kid, if you scratched your boat in a
    race you felt ashamed. With the J-24's, if you come home with just a
    two-foot hole you feel lucky."
    
    Local, Jim Brady ('91 Yachtsman of the Year, and '92 Olympic Silver
    medalist) is in 40th place. He's hired gun on an entry by a wealthy
    Italian businessman with new boat, new sails, paid maintenance crew.
    No expense spared.
    
    Goes to figure....
    
    JR

>    Any news yet on Olympic boat selections.  I'm especially interested in
>    the sailboard class.  Will they keep the Lechner or move to the Mistral
>    One-Design?  
    
	The Mistral One-design will be the next Olympic board

>    By the way you could get 4 complete new Olympic boards for
>    the price of a used J-24.  Just a thought.

	A J24 has a crew of 4 or 5, a board only 1. Just a thought.

	Chris

The price of the solig stated a few replies ago is the price of a fully equiped
compatitive soling.

I do not beleve that you can buy a main, jib, genua 1, genua 2 and a spinnaker
for a J24 for about 3-4 K that are compatitive.


rudy

    Ken Read clinched his 4th J-24 world championship yesterday.
    His record of 1-2-1-6-6 (not sure if races 3,4 are in right order)
    meant that he could not be caught and was able to sit out the last race
    today.
    
    Jim Brady has come on strong and is now in 2nd place going in to the
    last day.
    
    JR
    

TO MY INFORMATION

FD is out!
Laser is in.

Lechner is out!
Mistral is in.

The rest remain. 


So there is just a minor victory for the J/Laser/Hobie consortium. Major victory
for the  sailors.


Rudy

From:	DECWRL::"sadler@law.indiana.edu" "(Will Sadler )" 13-NOV-1992 15:39:13.45
To:	<starch::hagerman>
CC:	
Subj:	OLYMPIC LASER  (SMTP Id#: 563) -Forwarded

Here it is:
Forwarded mail received from:
LAW1HST:LAWTCP:LAW3HST:SMTPGATE:"100013.3350@COMPUSERVE.COM"


The Laser is the Olympic Open Dinghy in place of the Flying Dutchman!
  The full story
The CPOC Minutes were considered by the Permanent Committee at 2.30pm
GMT. It took them over an hour to get to the first vote which was on
whether to consider the recommendations in each discpline discpine by
discpline. The decision went 16 to 15 to take them class by class. Had
this failed the CPOC's recommendation of no change would have been it!
   The next moves to bring the decision on the Open Dinghy to before the
singlehanded men category was defeated 9 to 18 and 9 to 19.
  They then considered the Boards men and women, accepting the CPOC's
decision to go for the Mistral rather than the Lechner 26/4 & 27/3.
Comment on the singlehanded men was interesting, Czechoslovakia wanted
the cheaper boat i.e. the Finn and J. Jansens comments were almost
vitriolic against the Laser, It's not available world wide, it is
dangerous to hike, it's measurement rules are useless seemed to be the
gist of it. The vote went to the Finn by 20 to 9 against the Laser.
  Singlehanded women went Europe 27 Laser Radial 2 and everyone got
pretty depressed, well those who wanted Laser were down, other factions
cheered the selection of the Finn in a manner very reminiscent of the
good old British Public School ethos.
  The Open Dinghy selection was between the Laser, 470, FD, Int14 &
Contender. The chairman had at the beginning of the meeting declared
that a class would have to get a clear majority of 16 votes. If this did
not happen the class with the lowest vote would be discarded and they
would vote again until one class got 16 votes.
  On the first ballot it was Laser 16 FD 13 the Laser was in.
The Double Handed Women and Two Man Keelboat had one nomination each so
it was 470 & Star with no voting. The Multihull vote went Tornado 21,
Hobie 16 - 7 votes, Hobie 18 - 2 votes. So no change there also no
change in the three man keel boat with a vote of 17 to 13 to retain the
current format of fleet and match racing rather than go exclusively
match racing.
  I don't think it has sunk in yet.
On the class rules there are a number of committees which have minuted
that submissions have been put before them without being passed by the
classes concerned. Changes have been approved in principal but have a
number of steps to pass before becoming class rules so I have been asked
not to put anything on here which could confuse the issue & being
British I'm not saying anything other than a compromise "If you buy a
new boat don't throw away the tiller retaining pin"

Quote from Alan Broadribb "There should be a sign at the door warning
you to leave your brain outside, because that is what happens here."
  
Now that that lot is over can we get some sailing.

Regards 

Nigel Vick




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% From: <sadler@law.indiana.edu>  (Will Sadler )
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% Subject: OLYMPIC LASER  (SMTP Id#: 563) -Forwarded
% Date: Fri Nov 13 15:36:20 1992

The vote between Soling and J was:

Soling 26
J24     4


Rudy