Conference unifix::sailing

    Well, you could use my technique.  I filled out all of the forms
    the Coast Guard gave me and sent them in.  After a while you will
    get a form back saying, oh by the way you also need this, this,
    and that.  You take care of those items, send them in, and later
    you get another letter saying, oops, you also need...  So far the
    process has taken six months, with no end in sight.  But they've
    assured me over the phone there is no time limit, and I'm in no
    hurry, so when it's done it's done.  And it's cheaper than using
    a service.

    Even with a documentation service doing the work it'll take six months
    or so to get the process completed. It takes four or more months before
    they'll issue a number which you have to attach to the boat and even
    longer for the actual certificate.
    
    Doing it yourself, even if you made a mistake now and then couldn't
    take much longer. The forms are pretty easy, especially if you have
    samples to reference. Most problems occur due to some of the strange
    technicalities they have with respect to the exact formats.
    
    One problem you may run into. Technically you can't sail the boat
    during this time unless you have state registration (sales tax paid?).
    No problem if you're doing it during the layup season.

    John_R

    Couple dumb questions.
    
    What are the benefits of documentation?
    Is there an approximate size, length or displacement, below which it
    doesn't make much sense to document?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ed

    John is right.  Following the sample forms is pretty easy.  My problems
    stemmed from the fact that my boat involved a re-sale, and the broker
    hadn't used the proper bill of sale forms.  Since the boat was already
    documented, it already has a number.   That is why I'm not concerned
    about how long it takes, since I'm not sailing an unregistered
    boat.  You should have plenty of time to complete your process by
    spring.

    Re: .3
    
    I did it because the finance co. insisted.   I dont have to parade
    around with numbers all over the bow, which is nice.  There is
    something about making it easier for future owners to finance, and
    I understand it makes the boats entry into a foreign country a bit
    easier (except Libya I suppose).
    
    For some reason, my certificate lists the displacement as 10
    (somekinda) tons.   Since my boat displaces no more than 12,000
    pounds with provisions and full belly crew aboard, I assume the
    10 tons refers to either a minimum documentation number, or something
    else (like some strange marine conversion from pounds to tons or
    maybe how much she would weigh if full of Lager up to the vents).
    
    Walt

    Most finance companies force you to document if the boat is over
    a given size.   Most finance companies don't let you do it yourself
    either.  They charge about $350 for it.
    
    Theres a general rule which got published in one
    of the recent PS's or SAIL magazines.  Ill check, it had a formula
    in their which mapped to a CG standard.   The bottom line is that
    if your boat comes out with a given bottom line answer, you have
    to have it documented.                 
    
    Rick

    RE: .3
    One of the benefits of documentation is to make sure it's not a
    stolen boat. It's like a title search on a house. They track your
    boat back to it place of origin making sure each transfer was legit.
    
    There is a minimum size for documentation. I don't remember offhand
    but I think you can find it in Chapman's. The displacement referred
    to was explained once to me. It has to do with available cargo space.
    So if every nook and cranny of non-living space was filled with
    liquid that would be its displacement. (or something like that?)
    
    		cs

    Documented tonnage is indeed a measure of cargo volume. I measure
    the entire internal volume of the boat less certain spaces (machinery,
    etc). On a pleasure boat this is everything but the engine space
    and beneath the cockpit (unless there is a cabin there). 100 cubic
    feet = 1 ton. This measure goes back to the mid 1800's, and is based
    on English surveys of sailing merchant ships. It turns out to be
    a remarkably good estimate of the carrying capacity of a ship for
    general cargo.
    
    End of exposition, now a question. Can one document an unfinished
    boat? At what stage? I intend to document mine, and I might as well
    do it well before it's ready for the water (that gives me LOTS of
    time...).
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

    Walt almost hit it with his comment about filling the hull with
    Lager. I think it has to do with the volume of water displaced by
    the total hull.
    
    Generally it takes a sailboat of at least 28' with average beam
    to meet this minimum.
    
    By the way, even though the boat was previously documented, you
    are not legal during the new application stage. Technically, you
    still have to be registered. It's true that the original number
    stays with the boat but that documentation was automatically
    voided when the previous owner sold you the boat. 

    I've gone through the process three times without ever registering
    but I was nervous (and illegal) each time. Everytime I spotted one
    of those orange stripes I got a little lump in my throat. Hearsay
    indicates that you're OK as long as you keep copies of all the
    application paperwork on board, but I think that would depend on
    being boarded by a VERY sympathetic CG party.
    
    John_R

    Someone mentioned that documenting prevents resale, or at least
    re-documenting a stolen boat.  I read an article recently that
    indicated that this is hogwash. I guess you CAN document a stolen
    boat because the CG files everything under the documentation number
    and does not cross reference to the hull ID number.  So long as
    the builder will issue a builders certificate, which authenticates
    that the boat was actually built, and doesnt know or tell the CG
    it was stolen, no-one knows.  A uniform titling system (meaning
    ALL states participating) or bringing the CG data base into the
    20th century would plug this hole.
    
    By the way, the above senario has happened several times. The new
    owner loses the boat but not the mortgage.
    
    Walt

    RE: .-1
    Let me correct that to say it's SUPPOSED TO detect any stolen boats
    or boats with liens against them. That is why finance companies
    insist on documenting. I was also told by a CG officer that there
    are instances of what you say happening but also that there is "a
    short way and a long way to document". The short way doesn't guarantee
    that your boat is kosher. The long way requires proof of chain of
    ownership back to the place of origin. The short way requires merely
    a copy of the last prior registration plus evidence that establishes
    title from that registration to the present owner. I would guess
    that the finance company goes for the long route.
    
    RE: .3 
    
    Minimum tonnage for documentation is 5 tons.
    According to Chapmans the advantages of documentation are:
    
    "(1) legal authority to fly the yacht ensign.......
    
    (2) the privilege of recording bills of sale, mortgages and other
    instruments of title for the vessel with federal officials in her
    home port, giving constructive legal notice to all persons of the
    effect of such instruments and permitting the attainment of preferred
    status for mortgages so recorded. This gives additional security
    to the purchaser or mortgagee, and facilitates financing and transfer
    of title. Documentation is advantageous for boats that cruise widely
    or spend major portions of the year in different states - it eliminates
    any concern over 'state of principal use'. "

    RE: .8
    
    Yes, start it now...when we built our 30 footer 5 years ago we wanted
    to document it. The first requirement for a home-biilt boat is that
    you go on record with the CG as the Master Carpenter that built
    it, they have a special form for it (no exams, no fees, at least
    not five years ago...)
    
    If you want I can probably find my paperwork and send you copies
    -- BTW, my wife ended up as Captain since I as Master Carpenter
    of record could not also be Captain -- ah, buraucracy !!!
    
    Henk
    

    I had a documentation service in 1984.  It took them 10 months for
    completion.  It seems the builders certificate was lost and given
    the boat builder closed their doors it was impossible to get another
    one issued (Allmand Boats).  I finally got my certificate but I
    did sail a full season without any numbers.  
    
    	During this time I had a couple occasions where the coast guard
    requested my numbers.  They did not give me a hard time when I told
    them that I was in the process of applying for documentation.  They
    did not request proof but as John points out there is still a feeling
    of discomfort.
    
    	The state or local enforcement officers may not be so friendly
    about it but I have no specific experience with that.
    

    I went to a documentation service last year when I purchased my
    boat.  Documantation from the coast guard for pleasure vessels
    costs 100.00.  If you go to a documentation service, it costs
    225.00  For prefered mortgage, add 50.00 from the CG or 75.00
    from a doc service.  With the documentation service you don't
    have to worry about anything.  There was a total mixup with the
    bills of sales on my boat and the dealer had declared bankruptcy.
    Besides that, he had skipped the state.  Talk about mass confusion.
    The documentation service took care of it all at no extra cost.
    If you buy a new boat it might be worth doing the documentation
    yourself but for a used boat, the doc service is like having
    a lawyer working for you.
    
    The place I went to was Vessel Documentation Services out of
    Portland Me.  They handle all of New England.  They're listed
    in the phone directory, or call information.

    Thanks for all of the input.  Unfortunately (or fortunately based
    upon some of the answers) I'm going to have to go with a documentation
    service.  Yeagan Marine came in with the lowest interest rate (9.75%
    fixed) but they require a documentation service.  The finance companies
    that allow you to do your own were half a point higher.  Lessee,
    1/2% over fifteen years on $30K borrowed vs. $360 to document the
    boat, I think I'm better off with the lower percentage.
    
    An interesting side note.  1st Commercial came in at the same interest
    rate, but had a clause which could have cost me three points up
    front if we didn't close within the specified period.  Yes Virginia,
    there is fine print.

    what about buying a documented vessel? Any problems? I'll be buying
    a documented (used) vessel shortly. I want the ownership to pass
    cleanly.
    
   Sounds like a service is the way to do it right. But in the interum
    I plan on registering it w/ the state (sorta like safety in numbers)
    and pay the sales tax in 1986 (deductable) as I'll have to pay it
    one way or the other.

    sound ok?
    
    bc

    No problems buying a documented boat. That's who the system is
    set up to protect; the buyer.
    
    The seller simply returns his document to the CG with a note
    saying that the boat is sold and to whom. He must also provide
    to the buyer, a standard CG 'Bill of Sale' form. This should
    show the sale price as: One dollar and other considerations.
    The buyer needs this form along with some others to make an
    application for a new document.
    
    There can be complications but generally it's pretty simple. I've
    had this done three times for me by a documentation service and
    each time, after the fact, I've had to grit my teeth at the simplicity
    and wished I'd saved the money and done it myself. Three times?
    Slow learner you say? Not really. The first time I didn't know how
    simple it was. The second time I got scared off due to expected
    complications with buying a foreign registry (Bermuda) boat. That
    turned out to require only one additional piece of paper. Had to be
    signed and notarized by the seller and US Consulate in Hamilton.
    The third time, I used the boat as collateral and the finance company
    required it.
    

    Displacement is a paperwork calculation;  If you read about freighter
    design, there have been some very unsafe (open) designs to let the
    owners get around displacement classification problems.  
    
    One other point to remember about documentation:  A documented vessel
    may be taken by the government in time of war for any service they
    want.  That feels almost OK if they need a patrol boat or lighter,
    but when your toy turns into an admiral's toy, it might not seem
    OK...
    		J

re: .16 and sales tax. I bought a documented boat this spring and am
in the process of having the documentation switched over to me. Does 
one have to pay sales tax on a documented boat? or is this something 
that slipped through the cracks so far?? Or should I have not even
brought this up??????

I've sent a whole bunch of paperwork to the CG and as others have said 
they sent back a note saying you still need this, that and the other 
thing, and oh by the way, those were filled out wrong. I'll have to 
pay the $100 and thats about it. Its a simple enough process that if
you dont need a documentation service, save your self that $150 and
buy yourself a bunch of Samuel Adams.

I've also had to go back and have the owner previous to the one that
I bought the boat from re-execute the bill of sale since the originals
were lost. The previous owner sold the boat to the current one 4 years
ago, but I tracked him down and things are in the works. 

Thanks,
Linas

As I understand it, if you live in a state with sales tax, you will 
have to pay the sales tax when buying a boat, documented or not. 
Massachusetts tax collectors browse through the Coast Guard 
documentation records looking for (re)documented boats for which the 
state has no record of the sales tax being paid. You especially might 
want to discuss this (anonymously) with the state immediately as next 
year sales tax is no longer deductible on your federal income tax.

    One more bit of information for those who redocument an alraedy
    documented boat when a change in home port is requested.If you
    mail the application,like me,and you don't go personally down
    there,save some time by requesting from the CG office of the
    home port the vessel was documended previouly,to send an abstract
    of title to the CG home port office you want your vessel to be do-
    cumented.Include on your request the name the vessel was documented
    before-not the one you want to name it or already have-the vessel
    number,one dollar check payable to CG and a self addressed envelope
    to let you know when they send it.If you have not get a respond
    whithin 2 weeks call them.They are very good and helpfull.
    I hope this is of some help to someone.
    

    I sent in a request for change of ownership and change of vessel name 
    in mid June, and received my certificate yesterday.  No documentation
    service was used, just paid a lot of attention to the instructions.
    
    A lot better than the 18 to 24 months that I'd heard stories of...