Conference unifix::sailing

    
    	Aren't Jiffy and Slab the same thing?
    
    	One place to study the hardware possibilities is catalogs. Harken's
    treatment of single-line looked interesting. Nicro-Fico also has (had?)
    good ideas and sketches.
    
    	I find it funny that so many production boats send you out of your
    nice, safe cockpit to probably the highest place on deck (at the mast)
    to reef the main. When I reef, it's cuz the weather's getting at least
    interesting; at most nasty, and a piching/rolling deck is the place to
    avoid! Or at least send the most nimble crew...
    
    	Good luck; let us know what you do!
    
    	PS I'd bet the main's getting a little old & fat if the first reef
    looks better than the whole- `course loose footed mains are popping up
    all over... maybe that's the way to go.
    
    	Scott.

How big is your boat? How long do you sail reefed in what conditions?

In heavy weather the mainsail must be flat. This requires much tension 
in the reef line. In the usual scheme the reef line is attached near the 
outer end of the boom, goes up to and through the reef clew grommet, 
back down to a turning block, and forward to the mast. This does give a 
two-part purchase, but there is considerable friction at the grommet, 
which makes getting sufficient tension in the reef line difficult to 
impossible. We need a winch for even the first reef in our mainsail (a
bit more than 200 sq ft) to get a properly flat sail. I mounted a
self-tailing Barient 17 on the boom near the gooseneck. Expensive but
effective as the crewperson on deck can hold on with one hand and crank
the winch with the other. Before adding the winch reefing was a
miserable and hard job. Now it is just miserable. Our halyards are led 
to the cockpit, which is fine when two crew do the reefing. For 
singlehanding, I'd move the halyard winches to the mast. 

Single-line systems (ala Harken) look good in theory, but not in 
practice, I think. First, there is even more friction as the reef line 
goes through two grommets (tack and clew), so a winch is even more 
necessary. Second, you need at least three turning blocks per reef (yet 
more friction). Third, it is rather difficult to rig more than two reefs
(we have three as should anyone sailing offshore). Fourth, and most
important: The reef line is very long. The load on the line varies quite
significantly as the boat pitches/rolls and as the wind pressure varies 
(in the troughs of big seas the wind can be very light). Since the line
is under much tension, it will chafe at the grommets, and quite likely
chafe quickly (an hour or two may destroy the reef line in the wrong
conditions). If we are going to be reefed more than a few minutes in
rough conditions, we pass a lashing line through the clew grommet and
around the boom two or three times. We then remove the tension from the
reef line. Adding the lashing isn't particularly easy or safe, but it is
necessary (I've replaced two almost chafed through reef lines because of
not using a lashing). If you faithfully use a lashing, a single line
system might be marginally easier, but it will be much more expensive. I
find it interesting that none of the catalogs ever mention chafe. I
first read about the problem and solution in Hal Roth's After 50,000
Miles. My experience has been the same as Roth's. 

Alan

    There some discussion of this in an old note from a few years back but
    I've forgotten the number.  
    
    Unless your boat has a furling mast or boom, slab/jiffy reefing (right
    Scott, they're the same) is pretty much the only way to go.  Some older
    boats came equiped with roller reefing booms but the inevitable
    corrosion at the geared gooseneck usually made reefing a questionable
    undertaking.  With no clew attachement and a big lump at the tack from
    the rolled up boltrope, sailshape was usually hopeless.  If your sail
    has no battens, perhaps your boat was one of these.  Part of the reason
    roller furling went away is the hard time it has dealing with battens.
    
    The concept of jiffy reefing is simple.  One or more matched sets of
    tacks and clews are located above the foot of the sail.  As the wind
    pick up, the sail is lowered and the next set of tacks and clews
    engaged.   A combination outhaul/downhaul line is usually pre-reeved
    through each of the extra clews.  If this same line is also lead to
    pull down the tack, it's called a single line reefing system.  If the
    reefing line is not lead to the tack, a ring lashed through the new
    tack is secured over reefing "horns" at the gooseneck to secure the
    shortened luff.  Or, alternatively, the regular cunningham tackle, if
    the boat is so equiped, can be used to hold the tack down.
    
    How to arrange the blocks, lines, winches, and cleats to make this
    happen is the subject of some differing opinions.  I'll list my biases.
    
    It takes a lot of tension on the clew to suck the belly out of the sail
    in heavy air.  I like to have a winch available to provide this.  A
    cabin top winch can be bigger than a boom mounted one.  And you get
    more body english on the cabin top winch.  Plus the spagetti you get
    with a boom mounted winch is intolerable, especially when you want the
    sail reefed in a hurry.  Besides, you usually already have a cabin top
    one.
    
    High tension means high friction on all the turning blocks.  Ball
    bearing blocks are the only way to go.  That's not always a
    controllable for the sheaves at the outboard end of the boom if you
    have internally lead reef lines, but for the one at the gooseneck, I
    wouldn't consider anything else.
    
    High tension means strength is needed but friction mandates the
    thinest smoothest line that'll do the job.  Not a bad place for spectra
    or kevlar.  A very poor application for oversized fuzzy braid.
    
    I haven't seen a working one line reefing system yet although I've seen
    several attempts.  The biggest bugaboo is the turning block at the
    gooseneck to lead the line up to the new clew.  It's hard to get a fair
    lead there.  But with enough persistence, and access to a bridgeport
    miller to conjure up the required custom hardware, anything is
    possible.
    
    One thing about single line reefing I don't have an answer for is why
    it's perceived as safer.  When it gets desparate out and you need to
    set the storm jib and trysail, how are you going to do that from the
    cockpit?
    
    - gene
    
    

>>>    I haven't seen a working one line reefing system yet although I've seen
>>>    several attempts.  

These were invented by salespeople anxious to calm the fears of largely 
ignorant potential buyers.  Make it look simple.  Many of those buyers 
(and boats, for that matter) ought to tie in the first reef at 15 knots
anyway, so friction and sail shape really aren't that much of a problem.

No one buys a boat dreaming of gales.  To look at a single 1/4" line and 
be told by the salesperson that that's all it takes to reef, is to inspire 
the unwitting to do the foolish.

J.

    One problem I have, which Alan alludes to, is that the reef grommet
    ring on the luff of the main pops off the reefing horn/hook before I get 
    back to the cockpit to tighten the tension on the halyard.  Aside from
    trying to keep a little tension by hand as I scramble back to the 
    cockpit (encumbered by a safety harness of course), the trick I use now 
    is to use about a 1/4" wide strip of duct tape wrapped on the end of 
    the horn/hook.  This builds up a little "ball" of tape which helps keep
    the ring on the hook.
    
    I've also tried lashing for the reefing grommets on the leach, but I've
    not had success.  What happens is that I can't get enough horizontal
    (aft) tension on the lashings and the main slowly loses shape as the
    lashing slides forward on the boom.  I've thought about adding some
    small padeyes on the boom through which to run at least one round of
    the lashings, but I've never gotten around to it.
    
    Another trick with slab/jiffy reefing is to mark the halyard (in calm
    weather) at the point where, when the main is lowered to that point, it
    is easy to hook the reef ring onto the reef horn/hook.  Lowering the
    main too little and you have to make two trips to the mast (or shout a
    lot to your crew if you're so lucky); lowering it too much and the
    tendancy to pop off the horn/hook is all the greater.  Of course with
    enough practise you can eyeball where the head of the main is with
    respect to the spreaders.
    
    Finally with respect to chaffing the reef lines again, watch out for
    chaffing them against the outhaul car and/or tackle.  Chaff protection
    on the outhaul car is pretty obvious since it happens more or less in
    front (or above) your nose, but the tackle got me!  My outhaul has a
    3-1 purchase block and tackle INSIDE the boom.  The first season I had
    the boat I didn't even know it existed and was very surprised when the
    reef lines looked "eaten" in the MIDDLE of the lines when I pulled them
    in the fall.  What had happened is that they weren't fairly led through
    the boom and interwove a bit through the outhaul's block and tackle
    system.  Of course this only can happen when your reef lines also run
    through the boom, but the moral here of watching everywhere for chaff
    is the real message.
    
    -gayn
    
    
     
                                            

    Re: hooking the tack grommet onto the horn.
    
    The boat I sail has a D-ring instead of an open hook.  I can't see any
    obvious disadvantages with the setup, and it avoids the aforementioned
    problem.
    
    Steph

    The reef tack does have a tendency to slip off just when you don't want
    to.  Even with the reefing horns that are formed into a 270 deg loop,
    the wild flapping that ensues when you drop the halyard makes for
    pretty haphazard retention.  Plus I always have to stare at the horns
    for a moment to figure out how to get the tack ring into the curlicue.
    
    Using a halyard with the reef points marked on it combined with a
    cunningham block and tackle makes life much easier.  Just drop the
    halyard to the mark and cleat it off.  Then hook the cunningham into
    the new tack and yank on it until the luff is tight.  This works best
    if the mainsail has its boltrope in the mast slot.  For a mainsail with
    slides, using the cunnningham tackle to pull the reef tack down to the
    horns and then releasing it slightly to engage the tack ring and horns
    can alleviate the pre-release problem.  The tension on the luff will
    pull the reef tack back up into the horns.  Obviously you need a no
    nonsense cunnningham tackle to do this.  6 to 1 or better.  This costs
    a few bucks and the ball of tape trick sounds more cost effective if
    you don't have a need for such a cunningham adjuster otherwise.
    
    If the clew lashings are slipping, how about tying them behind whatever
    is securing the dead end of the reefing line.  It's usually a eye
    strap on the boom or the end of the reefing line itself tied around the
    boom through a hole in the mainsail foot.   Also, releasing some but
    not all of the tension should help.  I believe this problem usually
    occurs when internally lead reef lines are used with the turning blocks
    at the end of the boom.  As the reef clew nears the boom, the component
    of pull in the vertical direction diminishes.  A lot of tension is
    needed to get the sail down to the boom and that's the source of much
    of the wear on the reefing line at the clew grommet.  
    
    If external turning blocks are used, they can be located closer to the
    gooseneck directly under where the reef clew will touch the boom when
    the sailshape is flat enough.  A lot less tension is needed for this
    system and the need for the lashing is reduced.  But, since you'll be
    tying up the foot of the sail anyway, it won't hurt to do it.  The
    disadvantage is that now there is all this line hanging off the boom
    and a turning block to imbed itself into heads of crewmembers in an
    accidental gibe.
    
    - gene

re .3:
    
>>  It takes a lot of tension on the clew to suck the belly out of the sail
>>  in heavy air.  I like to have a winch available to provide this.  A
>>  cabin top winch can be bigger than a boom mounted one.  And you get
>>  more body english on the cabin top winch.  Plus the spagetti you get
>>  with a boom mounted winch is intolerable, especially when you want the
>>  sail reefed in a hurry.  Besides, you usually already have a cabin top
>>  one.
    
Hmmm. I disagree. You get even more spaghetti with the winch on the 
cabin top -- the reef lines are just that much longer. And you need two 
additional turning blocks, one at the gooseneck and one on the deck, 
which means more friction and more cost. Our boom-mounted winch is
positioned so that the crewperson can brace himself/herself against the
mast when reefing. We used to use a cabin top winch. UGH! The tangle of
lines was awful and it was extremely hard to hold on while kneeling on
the deck. Our boom-mounted winch is the third design we've tried, and
the first we've liked. 

>>  High tension means strength is needed but friction mandates the
>>  thinest smoothest line that'll do the job.  Not a bad place for spectra
>>  or kevlar.  A very poor application for oversized fuzzy braid.
    
Kevlar, and possibly Spectra, are very intolerant of tight radius bends 
(ie, going through the clew grommet). I would not use either for this 
reason. They may also be less tolerant of chafe than dacron.


re .5:

>>  One problem I have, which Alan alludes to, is that the reef grommet
>>  ring on the luff of the main pops off the reefing horn/hook before I get 
>>  back to the cockpit to tighten the tension on the halyard.  Aside from
>>  trying to keep a little tension by hand as I scramble back to the 
>>  cockpit (encumbered by a safety harness of course), the trick I use now 
>>  is to use about a 1/4" wide strip of duct tape wrapped on the end of 
>>  the horn/hook.  This builds up a little "ball" of tape which helps keep
>>  the ring on the hook.
    
Our hooks are round bar stock, one on each side. We connect the hooks 
with a length of clear plastic tubing led under the boom. Remove the 
tubing from a hook, put the tack ring over the hook, and slide the 
tubing back on. Seems to work, plus the tubing keeps things from 
snagging on the hooks in normal life.
    
>>  Another trick with slab/jiffy reefing is to mark the halyard (in calm
>>  weather) at the point where, when the main is lowered to that point, it
>>  is easy to hook the reef ring onto the reef horn/hook.  

Ah, stealing my ideas again (big grin)! We have added red whippings on
the (white) halyard to mark the three positions for reefing. We lower
the sail until the tack ring is two or three inches about the reef
hooks. Since our halyards are all rope, it is easy to stretch the
halyard enough to get the ring over the hook. Halyard tension (the
halyard is held by a sheet stopper) keeps the ring on the hook. No
cunningham tackle is needed (score one for all rope halyards -- I
wouldn't use wire-rope halyards if they were given to me). 

Designing a satisfactory mainsail reefing system isn't easy. It takes a
lot of careful thought, design, and some experimentation. We've used
three designs. The original design from the spar maker was dreadful.
Dreadful because the wrong hardware was used as much as the wrong
design. Our current design uses several custom-made bits and pieces and
is reasonably satisfactory. I spent several days hunched over a drafting
board designing it and several more days making mockups to be sure it
would work. Custom-made hardware is very expensive, either in time or
money. The design needs further modification before heading off around
the world. 

    Re. the boom mounted reefing winch.  I had one of these on the previous
    boat.  Because of motion induced by sail flogging and my own weight on
    the winch handle I found it difficult to get good purchase.  And if we
    were on the wrong tack with the boat heeling, which it usually was, 
    the winch had to be operated with the grinder underneath it facing up.
    That coupled with the boom moving around with a will of its own made
    for discomfort on the part of the operator.  Re-leading the reef line
    to an existing cabin top winch made life much easier.  I suppose we
    could have re-located the boom winch closer to the mast but it seemed a
    half measure and we had too many holes in the boom anyway.
    
    Some custom hardware and ball bearing blocks solved the friction
    problem.  
    
    We went to kevlar reefing lines when the dacron ones kept breaking. 
    They never broke but we kept switching end for end to even out the
    wear.  
    
    I wasn't kidding about the Bridgeport miller.  We needed it for the
    custom gooseneck fitting.
    
    - gene  

re .9:

>>  And if we were on the wrong tack with the boat heeling, which it 
>>  usually was, the winch had to be operated with the grinder 
>>  underneath it facing up.

Ah, do we have a racer speaking here? Yes, with a boom-mounted winch, 
reefing on one tack is much easier than the other. Being a cruiser, we
always reef on the starboard tack since our winch is on the starboard
side of the boom. 

>>  That coupled with the boom moving around with a will of its own made
>>  for discomfort on the part of the operator.  

Allowing the boom to swing from side to side is quite dangerous. We have
two four-part vangs (preventers) permanently rigged, one to each rail.
We raise the boom with the topping lift and then pull both vangs tight.
This keeps the boom from swinging from side to side, making reefing
easier, faster, and much safer. We also never sail off the wind without
the leeward vang snugged tight to prevent an accidental gybe from doing
injury or damage. 

>>  I suppose we could have re-located the boom winch closer to the mast 
>>  but it seemed a half measure and we had too many holes in the boom anyway.
    
Our winch is a couple of feet from the mast. Any competent welder can 
make holes in aluminum booms disappear. Our boom has had a number of 
holes filled and new ones installed. Of course, a boom isn't too 
pretty after welding, but a bit of paint hides all. Oh, your boom is 
anodized? 

It would appear that Gene and I would agree that getting the right 
reefing system isn't easy. What is right on one boat may not be right on 
another.

Alan

    My current system is essentially as described - single line - (no
    winches) with turning blocks on the boom and horns at the gooseneck but
    no cunningham.  By the way the comment about roller reefing/no battens
    struck home ... the original owner of the boat must have thought that
    was a good idea as she was set up that way I think he missed one thing
    though - the main sheet is on a bail halfway down the boom.  I have not
    ever tried this but I suspect that the main sheet would serve very well
    to keep the sail tidy as you roll it up.  The sheet would certainly not
    be useful for anything else !
    
    My reason for wanting to re-do the system is to minimize time at the
    mast.  My boat is 30' steel - cutter rig and I typically do not start
    to think reefing until the wind pipes up over 20 kts or so.  I do a
    fair amount of sailing by myself or with my wife and am not keen on
    leaving the cockpit for any great length of time.  
    
    I think I like the idea of installing a cunningham-type arrangement
    with a tack hook at least double purchase pulley on the deck, use a long
    line to lead this back to the cockpit and then mark the halyard and
    also bring the reefing line back to the cockpit.  This way I could drop
    the halyard to the marked spot, tighten up the cunningham and then
    tighten the reefing line all from the cockpit (if I remember to
    install the tack hook when the main is raised) for a second reef I
    would have to slacken off the cunningham to the 2nd reef point,
    i.e. leave the cockpit. but then return and do the same again.
    Shaking out the reef would then appear to be failry simple, I would
    just slacken cunningham and reef line and raise the halyard.

re .11:

Either I've misunderstood what you intend to do, or you've overlooked a
key point. Simply pulling the reef tack down to the boom with a block
and tackle isn't going to work very well. The tension on the reef line
through the clew will pull the tack grommet away from the mast,
resulting in a very baggy, poorly reefed sail. You have to keep the reef
tack firmly in place at the gooseneck, ie, you have to hook the reef
tack grommet over hooks (or something) at the gooseneck. This requires a
trip to the mast. Also, bringing the tack and clew reef line to the cockpit
will require that the lines be quite long. You are virtually certain to
have severe chafing problems at the reef grommets and probably
elsewhere. Don't overlook, too, that properly reefing the sail requires
tying the intermediate grommets (the ones in a horizontal row between
the tack and clew) to the boom. This cannot be done from the cockpit. 

I am not exactly thrilled about clambering around the deck reefing our 
mainsail either, but it is worse in my mind than in reality. If you keep 
the boom from swinging, use a safety harness, and keep the boat pinched 
but not dead into the wind, mainsail reefing isn't so bad, especially 
when you work from the high side. It gets easier and faster with 
practice. Trying to get everything back under control when a reef line
breaks can be a real problem. 

Alan

re -.1:

I think you'll need a winch mounting pad. 

Making a winch mounting pad is not difficult, just somewhat time
consuming. Get a piece of marine plywood and cut it into a circle with
the same diameter as the base of the winch. Coat the plywood with a
couple of coats of epoxy. Sand smooth. Thoroughly wax an area on one
side of the boom. Clamp the plywood to the boom where you want to mount
the winch. Mix a batch of epoxy and add some high density filler. Force
the epoxy into the gap at the top and bottom of the plywood pad. After
the epoxy is hard, remove the pad from the boom and sand it into the
shape you want. Paint it the color of your boom to protect the epoxy
from UV damage. Drill the mounting holes. This is more or less how I
made the pad for our boom-mounted winch. Two years later I'm still 
delighted by how nice it looks. 

    I have been reading this note and have to agree with Gene on a couple
    of key points.  Not because we're racers, but because of what I believe
    makes sense.  
    
    First, all of our winches are on the cabin top and usable from the
    companionway.  This gives the grinder a safe and secure place to stand
    and puts the winch at waist level for max purchase.  The extra friction
    is easily alleviated with decent blocks.  The "spagetti" of unused reef
    lines are just kept coiled by their stoppers when not in use or thrown
    down the copanionway.  Ideally, (next year) they will go into sheet
    bags that hang in the companionway by sliding into the hatch track.
    
    The halyard is also right there and premarked.  To reef is a two person
    job no matter what system you have unless you want to do it in steps. 
    With two, one stands at the mast and the other in the comanionway.  The
    grinder eases the halyard to the mark very quickly to reduce flapping
    time and the mastman slides the grommet onto the horn.  The grinder
    then quickly takes up the slack and the mastman comes aft (or goes back
    to the rail).  At any rate the mastman is used for less than thirty
    seconds.  
    
    When the halyard is good and tight, the grinder starts to take up on
    the clew while the mainsheet is eased to him.  When sailing upwind, the
    flapping of the boom is all to leeward and not a problem.  Once the
    clew is taken up we put a strap around the boom through the grommet and
    connect the outhaul to the grommet.  Then take up on the outhaul and
    ease the reefing line.  This is all done if the reef is going to be
    there a while.  
    
    We do it the same way whether racing or cruising.  Takes a minute or so
    either way.
    
    The second point I agree with Gene on is the use of spectra or kevlar. 
    The reduction in stretch is worth it.  I wouldn't use it if I were a
    world cruiser and would gladly trade perfomance for durability.
    
    Dave

    Find a good reef, wait for a windy day, get about 500 yards
    upwind and pop the chute.
    
    ;)

re .15:

Dave, sounds like a well-thought out system for your boat. As a cruiser, 
though, I would not feel comfortable having my companionway open in 
rainy or rough weather, especially when going to the second or third
reef. A wave down my companionway will probably drown all my electronics
and the galley as well. Not a cheery thought. 

I'm surprised nobody has yet suggested the obvious solution to staying 
in the cockpit while reefing the mailsail ...... Hood Yachts Systems has 
just what you need -- a Stoway mast. Hydraulic and electric drives 
optional. 

    Re. the boom winch for a C&C 26.  I'm not sure that a winch is all that
    useful for reefing the main on a boat of this size.  The systems that I
    described in my earlier replies where on boats that were raced hard. 
    Having a winch on the reefing lines allowed us to keep the main drawing
    as it was being reefed.  This was particularly important for the
    flatening reef.  We didn't even let off on the mainsheet to put that
    in.  The reefing winch actually had enough power to stretch the sail
    and bend the mast.  Without heavy duty hardware doing that would have
    been a real gear buster.
    
    For a cruising boat, especially a smaller one, there is no need to
    apply that kind of muscle.  I think the simplest system that will do
    the job is the one that is most likely to work correctly when you need
    it to.
    
    A system I like is one that was retrofitted to a cruising boat
    donated to a school I attended.  Originally outfitted with a roller
    reefing boom, a decade of hard use and casual maintenance had done a
    job on the gooseneck crank.  It wouldn't roll anymore.  At least not
    with vise grips and no one could find the handle that was supposed to
    fit onto the mechanism.  The decision was made to install jiffy
    reefing.
    
    The boat didn't come with a treasure chest in the bilge to finance
    buying a new winch and no one we knew had any lying around.  Anyway, the
    round boom section meant that a special bracket would have to be made. 
    There were enough other things that needed more urgeant attention so we
    looked for a simpler solution.  One thing we had in abundance was lots
    of old parts salvaged from generations of college racing dinghies.
    
    The low budget solution was this.  Two cheek blocks were mounted on the
    side of the boom just aft of where each reef clew lay when in the
    reefed position.  The reefing line was tied on the retaining post of
    the cheek block, led under the boom, up to the reef clew, down the
    other side to the sheave of the cheek block, and forward UNDER the
    boom.  About 2-3 feet from the gooseneck the reefing line went through
    a cast aluminum friction cleat with an integral fairlead also mounted
    on the underside of the boom.  About 3" ahead of that the tail went 
    through a Haarken bullet block suspended from an eye strap and ended
    in a figure 8 knot.  The cleat was self activating.  The bullet block 
    allowed pulling in any direction and also kept the reefline in the 
    cleat.  For the tack, we just used a cleat under the gooseneck with 
    a string on it for tying it off.
    
    The reefing procedure was refreshingly elegant.  When the time came to
    do it, uncleat the mainsheet, walk into the companionway, lean forward,
    grab the tail of the reef line and start pulling.  The boom would rise
    until it met the clew, harmlessly flogging above everyone's head. 
    Because the operator was pulling down it was easy to use body weight
    to get the line tight.  Next, go up to the mast and lower the halyard
    till the tack was within 6" of the gooseneck and tie the grommet off
    with the string.  On the way back to the cockpit, another yank on the
    reef line tail got the last bit of slack out.  Then just trim the
    mainsheet and continue on your way.  With the omnidirectional pull on
    the reefline we could always work from the middle or high side.
    
    This was on a boat with a 15 boom.  It should work as well on a smaller
    boat.  Since many of the students normally on board were new to
    sailing, it was important to have a system that didn't take a lot of
    explaining or prior experience.  Anyone can yank a string.  Not
    everyone knows which way to twirl the line onto a winch.  As for
    simulaneously tailing and grinding - not even engineering wizards could
    figure that out.
    
    - gene

    .18 is pretty similar to what I do now, although I just have a regular
    cleat mounted on the boom Vs. the jam cleat with integral fairlead.  In
    reading .18 I realised one of my problems is simply that the cleat
    is mounted too far aft on the boom.  That is one of the reasons that I
    feel uncomfortable when reefing as I have to balance against the boom
    while standing on the cabin top but more than arms reach away from the
    support of the mast or shrouds.  
    
    The other thing that I do is use the topping lift (which also leads
    back to the cockpit to lift the boom (sheet loose) so that the clew
    comes down easily.  This also hase the advantage of lessening the force
    needed for the outhaul.  Once the clew is secured I then move to the
    mast and put the tack on the hook and then return to the cockpit to
    tighten the halyard, loosen the topping lift and tighten the sheet,
    finally (depending how long the reef will be in) I then tidy up the
    bag under the boom.

    Perhaps an unnecessary bit of advice:  No matter how your reefing
    system is set up, Practice, Practice, Practice.
    
    As with many situations, even the simplest procedure becomes complex
    when elements of danger are added.  Practice in no or low pressure
    situations.  Reef at the dock in no wind.  Reef at the dock in a light 
    breeze.  Reef in the bay in no wind.  Surprise your crew by calling
    for a reefing drill in 10 kts.
    
    Familiarity with your reefing system will make reefing a less
    threatening prospect when you really need to do it.  You will get
    an added benefit of finding out what is wrong with your system
    before you actually need it.  An increased level of comfort will 
    also save a bit of wear and tear on gear as tucks can be confidently
    and easily put in the main at lower wind speeds.
                      

A single handed reefing system: I've seen such a setup, but have never used 
one under stress.  So this is a proposal without a recommendation...

o Start by dead-ending a line on the boom directly under the clew reefing 
  cringle on the stbd side.
o Run the line up through the clew cringle and down to a cheek turning block
  mounted on the port side of the boom as far aft as possible and specifically
  aft of the fixed attachment point used in the above step.  The offset lets 
  you tension the foot of the main.
o The line then is fed to a second cheek block mounted at the front of the
  boom on port directly under the tack reefing cringle. 
o The line then goes up through the tack reefing cringle at the luff of the 
  main then back down to a third cheek block mounted on the stbd side of the 
  boom and oposite the secon block used in the above step.
o After this, the line is run aft to a self tailing winch in the cockpit (how 
  this is done is an exercise left to the student).
o The main halyard is also run aft to an adjacent self tailing winch in the
  cockpit.

Thus, one can slowly ease the main halyard with your left hand while grinding
in on the reef line with your right hand.  The reef line at the clew will pull
the clew down and aft.  This line at the luff will pull the tack down and hold
it next to the goosneck.  The more you tension the reef line, the tighter the
foot becomes.  The luff tension is then set with the main halyard. 

Note that you can rig multiple reef points with multiple lines and sets of 
blocks if you so desire.

re .21:

John, what you suggest might work well for the first reef, but I think
not for a second or third. Since the reef line/pennant/whatever goes
from the boom up to the reef clew and back down to the boom, you have to
pull a length of line equal to twice the distance from the boom to the
reef clew. For a typical 30 or so footer with a high aspect mainsail
this might be twelve or more feet for a second reef. The boom is likely
shorter than this (ours is eleven feet), especially since you'll need
some room for blocks, cleats, etc. It might be possible to devise a way
to attach the block to the reef pennant after some of it has been hauled
in, but the only ways I can think of at the moment either aren't
practical or have some other significant drawback. At least a winch is
simple. By the way, we use essentially what you suggest for our unreefed 
clew outhaul with a 3:1 purchase. Works quite nicely, and it's all 
hidden inside the boom. 

re .22:

The drawings in the Harken advertisements show that you must modify your
mainsail by moving the tack reef grommets away from the mast a ways.
Harken wants $275 or so for the hardware for a 30 some footer (not
including lines, sheet stoppers, sail modifications, etc). You can buy a
nice winch for rather less and have a simple(r) system without worrying
about chafe. 

    Having flogged the topic of reefing the mainsail to death, what is the
    cockpit potato's solution to shortening the headsail via remote
    control?  Is a roller furling headstay the only solution?  On the boats
    I've sailed on that were so equiped, we usually unrolled and changed
    the headsail to a smaller one before leaving the mooring if the breeze
    looked like it might build.  One friend just rolls up an appropriate
    amount of sail when he feels the need but I've always felt nervous
    about that.  If the furling line breaks and the drum unrolls, then the
    choice is to sail with the whole genoa up or to take the whole thing
    down (assuming it comes down at all).
    
    How 'bout us poor folk with hank on jibs.  Has anyone ever thought out
    a remote reefing solution for us.  I could see something like an extra
    long cunningham to shorten the luff but what about the clew?  Maybe a
    permanently reeved set of sheets on the reef clew run through a second
    set of blocks?  Sounds like that would snag with every tack when in the
    unreefed state though.  Without a solution on the front end of the boat
    our goal of putting roots down in the cockpit will remain ever elusive.
    
    For those who have a desire to learn what it is like to reef in square
    rigger, I recommend the book "Tuning the Rig" by Harvey Oxenburg.  Ivy
    league desk jockey with acrophobia learns sailing on the Regina Maris. 
    Those who have failed to reef in time and have, as a result, dipped
    their spreaders, know what a thrilling sensation it is.  Imagine
    sitting on the spreaders while it's happening.  Worth writing a book
    about.  Despite the title, it has almost nothing to do with rig tuning.
    
    - gene

    Re: .24 and .17
    
    Putting cost aside, the Hood Stowaway mast system is about as simple 
    and easy to sail and reef as it gets.  We have this on Viking Rose 
    which has a tall cutter rig with 1,281 square feet of sail area (472 
    sq. ft. main).  We have the Hood Seafurl II system on the jib and 
    staysail.  My wife single hands the boat when necessary without 
    leaving the center cockpit. 
    
    Our Stowaway mast has the electric drive which we control from the 
    cockpit and use perhaps 30% of the time.  For manual operation we use 
    the winch-handle operated manual furling mechanism located on the 
    forward side of the mast.  Although this can be a one person 
    operation it is usually easier for one of us to control the main-sail 
    (not boom) sheet from the cockpit while the other cranks in the sail.  
    Reefing the main is usually a 30 second operation.
    
    We have found this system to be safe and reliable for the two years 
    that we have sailed her.  It has much to recommend it for short 
    handed cruising.  This system has taken much of the personal risk, 
    drudgery and hard work out of sailing, and has especially increased 
    my wife's confidence and enjoyment in sailing a larger boat.
    
    	Howard

    I remember reading an article awhile back by one of the big time
    cruising authors (I forget the name) who cut his jib into two parts
    and reconnected it with a big zipper!  With the addition of an
    additional grommet for a second clew, he converted his genoa into a
    yankee.  I thought about writing a tongue-in-cheek letter to the editor
    suggesting that this cruiser put a zipper in his main to give him a
    reverse roach, but ... .   
    
    -gayn
    

    
    
    	I'd say the roller is pretty much the only show in town, Gene- I 
    did, however, have a jib with 2 clews and reef points (!) on my old
    Explorer class daysailer ( a chunkier version of the O'Day) which I
    used maybe once or twice. You bundle the extra cloth with imagination.
    It was more Yankee-ish, so you could see under it, and I guess cut down
    on snags. It was easier just to drop the whole thing and zoom back
    under main- with only 17' of hull, I never ventured out too far, altho
    pointing was more possible with both sails reefed. Don't think I've
    seen another sail quite like it since, just jibs with cunninghams.
    
    	I've read Doyle's glossy on `Sea-Foam' which was shaped
    closed-cell, I guess, that they stuffed into the luff of their roller
    jibs. The theory went something like the sail would flatten as you
    rolled it, so one jib was all you ever needed. Does anybody have one of
    these gennys? Do they work at all? I'm skeptical, but the day will come
    when lazyness will overtake the need for speed, and I hope not to
    convert to trawlers any earlier than necessary. Another way out is
    something like the Freedom, with small headsails and lazyjacks et al,
    out back...
    
    	Speaking of cynicism, I've still not found a single-line reef
    system that would be accorded trust comparable to hooking the reef tack
    on the horn. Also, you still need to shape a main, even when reefed. No
    reason to slow down just cuz it's blowing!
    
    	Scott.

re .24:

One answer to your questions about headsail reefing is the cutter rig.
We have a true cutter (mast approximately amidships as compared to a
double headsail sloop with the mast rather further forward). With
downhauls rigged, either hanked-on headsail can be dropped and kept on
deck (though not too neatly) without leaving the cockpit. Various
combinations of yankee jib, staysail, and (un)reefed mainsail serve in
winds from 10 to 50 knots. Above that it is time for storm jib and
trysail. (Even though I love my boat, and would buy another
cutter-rigged boat, cutters do have some disadvantages, but then so does
every rig.) 

Another part of the answer lies in the hull design. Our boat has a very
smooth, gentle motion even in quite rough seas. Working on the foredeck
to change or lash down a sail is not difficult, and as a result we often 
do not bother with the downhauls. This might not be true of lighter,
flatter bottomed, narrower-bowed boats. Also, since our boat is very
stiff (we've sailed close hauled with double reefed main and 100% jib in
40 knot gusting to 50 knot winds) sail changing is not needed very often
(except in light winds when we use our genoa, which I am not fond of for
several reasons). 

I am slowly becoming convinced that a strongly built, well-maintained 
roller furling system is acceptable for offshore use on a cutter, 
provided that it is used on the headstay only and only for furling, not 
reefing. One of the less delightful parts of my trip back from Bermuda
on a Seguin 44 was the breaking of the roller furling line late at night
beating into a 30 knot wind in the quite rough Gulf Stream. The jib,
about a 120, promptly unrolled all the way. 

re .26:

I think it was the Pardey's who tried the zippered headsail. If I were 
really poor and had no other alternative, I might try it. I'd rather 
have two sails.

Alan

    re .23:
    I have a Doyle genoa (150%, 680 sf) with foam luff on my Beneteau 42
    "Halcyon". It is bent on a Profurl furling system. I sail my boat
    single handedly a lot and I have several offshore passages under her
    keel. I find that the foam does help shape the sail up to about 110%
    Even at that it still is fuller than I would like, but I usually 
    manage to convert the fullness into twist with a rather flat foot.
    I use this system exclusively when I sail single handed since I
    can shorten sail without changing to a smaller jib. With a properly
    designed and installed furling system there is no chafe on the line
    and with proper line size it seems to me that the probability of
    line breakage is negligible. I have sailed for days under partially
    furled genoa in heavy weather, without the slightest sign of
    chafe. Nevertheless, frequent inspections dont hurt. Conclusion:
    The foam luff does help but do not expect nice sail shape beyond
    25% furling ( and you probably would not bother with much less than
    that amount of ail reduction).
    
    Incidentally, I do rig an inner forestay when offshore and I bend
    a staysail on it. I find that when the going gets really heavy
    the staysail reduces the need to bend a storm jib,
     the same way as my tripple reefed main
    reduces (or at least postpones) the need to bend a trysail. But
    between a, say 110% jib and the staysail there is a gap, that I
    can only close by lowering the 150% jib and hoisting a 90%.
    Unfortunately this is easier said than done if you have chosen to stay 
    with the partially furled jib until the conditions demand the 90%.
    So I contend myself with the gap.
    
    With respect to main reefing: My boat has slab reefing which is
    entirely managed from the mast base. I have installed a main halyard
    (self tailer) winch on the mast to supplement the reef winch that
    is standard on the boat, right under the gooseneck on the mast.
    I find that position a lot more manageable than on the boom. My single
    handed reefing procedure consists of letting off the main sheet by
    a reasonable amount, disregard the flogging, go to the mast and 
    let off the main halyard enough to be able to hook the ring to the 
    horn, tension the halyard (if the ring falls off I am there to hold it)
    crouch under the boom and winch-in the reefing line as hard as
    I can. Occasionally, I may have to run back and let off some more
    sheet. I never use a reef relief tie around the boom, although if I was
    sailing around the world I probably would. I have never seen any
    chafe, even after two or three days of reefed sailing. The key is
    tension. When enormous tension is applied to the reef line, which is needed
    to absolutely flatten the foot, there is no play and no chafe, with
    the reef grommet almost flat against the boom. The only chafe I have
    seen was when the reef line was inproperly reeved and when tensioned
    it came hard against the main clew car. So some attention is need here. 
    
    /Dimitri

    A simple solution to keep the reefing gromet in the horn while you are
    raising the main is to attach a strong bungee cord about a foot above
    the boom on the mast with a loop in the end of it.  After hooking the
    reef gromet in the horn, stretch the bungee cord loop down over the
    horn.  When you are not reefed keep the bungee hooked and it is out of
    the way.  This works very well on my Catalina 36.
    
    Chuck
    

RE: .24,

Gene,

Years ago it seemed as though dealers were careful to distinguish between 
roller furling and roller reefing.  Today they seem to be used 
interchangeably, which causes confusion.

In Cruising World, there's a picture of BOC boat Generali Concorde (Alain 
Gautier, I recall) making >10kts to windward with *both* headsails reefed 
using a drum-type roller system.  He probably expects more weather and 
strain on such a system than any of us are likely to see in our lives, so 
I take that as a sort of ratification of the technology.

I'd definitely have one, and would certainly use it to reef in heavy 
going, even at the price of having a somewhat flatter-cut sail than ideal 
for light air going.

J.

    I got to thinking about the use of boom-mounted winches in jiffy
    reefing systems.  I certainly agree that this is the desirable way to
    go.  But sometimes there are physical (.13) or financial (sigh)
    limitations.  Here's a potential alternative.

    In a previous life, I ran a charter fleet in San Diego with boats up to
    46 feet.  Admittedly, San Diego is a light air port, but just to be on
    the safe side, we set up all our boats with jiffy reefing.  With the
    exception of a Cal-46, we didn't bother with boom mounted winches.  We
    found that by lifting the boom, either by hand or shoulder (works quite
    easily on boats up to 30 feet), then taking tension on the outhaul, we
    were able to suck the clew down to the boom.  On larger boats, we would
    take tension on the topping lift sufficient to bring the boom up to
    meet the clew, which was being hauled in by hand.
    
    This procedure does require two reasonably competent crew- one at the
    mast, one at the helm- with increased burden at the helm if the boom
    is being manually lifted.  In particularly confused seas, a third
    person may be necessary to manually lift a boom, bracing
    himself/herself in the companionway or against the cockpit seats.
    
    If the mastman needs some extra purchase to heave on the clew, then 
    consider taking a half turn on the boom-mounted cleat and pulling aft
    You now have a two-to-one purchase.  Of course, the mastman is now
    in a slightly more precarious position, so care is essential.  We used to
    mount the cleats as far forward as possible on the boom to reduce the
    distance from something solid to wrap your arms around.
    
    To reiterate something I suggested before, practice frequently, and
    you'll probably come up with your own variations that will make
    reefing, and thus blustery sailing, safer and more fun.
    

    I honestly do not understand the attraction with boom mounted winches.
    When reefing all pressure should be off the minsheet in order to not
    force the strain to be picked up along the leech.  This results in the
    boom flapping and moving around, sometimes a lot.  I wouldn't think
    this would be the best platform for a person to grind from.
    
    Also, what is inherently safer about going to the mast as opposed to
    grinding from the cockpit reaching onto the cabin top?  
    
    As for economy, the same cabin top winch can be used for halyards. 
    Instead of buying a new winch, all you need is a turning block or two
    and a sheet stopper.  If you are installing a new winch anyway, the new
    winch can serve several purposes from the cabin top and not be assigned
    to the 5% of use we put on our boats while reefed.
    
    Someone mentioned the additional friction.  In my experience, this is
    not an issue.  All of our halyards are led aft the same way as the reef
    lines and friction is not something we even have to think of.  If I
    were a cruiser I would do the same thing.  The singlehanders in the BOC
    race lead everything aft for ease of use.  If it were easier or safer
    to do this work at the mast, every one of them would do it that way. 
    
    
    If the issue is not trusting a sheet stopper over a lenght of time,
    install a traditional cleat behind it.  Use the sheet stopper while you
    take the reefing line off the whinch, freeing it up for other uses, put
    the tail on the cleat and then release the pressure on the sheet
    stopper.
    
    In short, I shake my head when reading this note.  There is no function
    that is better done at the mast when it can be done from the cockpit.
    
    Dave

re .32 

Yes, if the boom is raised, it is much easier to put in the reef. Our 
topping lift is simply a spare main halyard led to the cockpit. Slacking 
the mainsheet and taking up on the topping lift raises the boom nicely. 
If need be, our boom can be raised using the main halyard winch.


re .33:

>>> When reefing all pressure should be off the m[a]insheet in order to not
>>> force the strain to be picked up along the leech.  

I agree, quite right. 

>>> This results in the boom flapping and moving around, sometimes a lot.  

True, but for a good solution see one of my earlier replies. Allowing 
the boom to swing freely when reefing is dangerous whether the reefing
is done from the mast or the cockpit. The booms on some race-oriented
boats appear to be low enough to be a serious hazard to a crewperson
standing in the cockpit. 
    
>>> There is no function that is better done at the mast when it can 
>>> be done from the cockpit.
    
Again I agree, but in my experience on my boat (your experience on your 
boat may differ) it is nigh on impossible to put a reef in the mainsail 
properly without some work on the cabin top to ensure that the reef 
lines are fair and that the foot of the sail is not pinched under a reef 
line or against the clew car, to put in the clew lashing, etc. And I
don't know of any way to tie the loose folds of the sail to the boom
from the cockpit. If the loose foot isn't tied to the boom and if a wave
fills those folds, you may well have a seriously torn sail. 

Again, what works and doesn't work may depend on your particular boat 
and the particular sailing you do.

    The ideas presented in this topic have been just great.  They have
    covered different sizes of boats, using a variety of different
    hardware (I prefer the cheekblock method myself, leading back to the
    cockpit).
    
    Unfortunately one thing that really didn't get too much coverage was
    how to handle 'multiple' reefing points!  I may have missed a great
    solution in the text, but most of them seemed to focus on 1 reef point.
    
    Would the apparent solution be to have one line threaded for each reef
    point, or has someone figured out a way to use one line for two or more
    reef points?  My main has three, although it initially came with one.
    My current reefing method is not very good, but it gets the job done.
    Obviously, the luff is not the problem, it's the leech that makes it
    interesting.
    
    Bob Halsey
    

re .35:

Trying to reeve a clew reef line in rough conditions is a more than a 
little dangerous and something I would attempt only in desperation. A 
reef clew is typically three feet or so above the boom. Trying to get a 
line through a smallish grommet in a wildly flogging sail with the boat 
gyrating under you isn't easy, especially when it is the second or third 
reef. 

We have three mainsail reefs and have clew reef lines permanently in
place for each. The hardware for three reefs does become cluttered (but
since our clew lines are internal to the boom our situation could be
worse). We've used the third reef once in eleven years, but that time I 
was most glad to have it. 

    re:35
    
    I have used with mixed results a continuous lanyard loop running
    through the 2nd and 3rd reef clue grommets. The length of the
    loop is such that the lanyard is normally flat against the leech
    of the main. to go from 2nd to 3rd reef you tie the loose #1 reef
    line to the lanyard and hoist it through the #3 grommet and then
    back down to tie to the boom. The main problem with this system
    is that the loop tends to sometimes catch the boom when hoisting
    the main. 
    
    re: 36 
    If the sail is flogging while you are setting the reef you must have
    waited too long to set it. The above technique works fine when the main
    is under control and over the cockpit which means you may have to 
    change course briefly to do it. I have seen racing boats use this
    technique for  going from reef # 1 to #2. They use the flattening
    reef as the loose reefline then. However, I use the second reef too
    often and I would not give it up from been ready to use all the time.
    
    /Dimitri
    

    I've used the messanger line reeved through the 2nd and 3rd reef clews
    to which Dimitri refers.  As he states, there are pluses and minuses to
    doing this.  The plus is that one less reef line is needed although the
    cheek block and other hardware is still necessary.  For a deep third
    reef it's a long piece of line that's saved.  The minus is that it's
    still awkward to reeve the reef line although not as awkward as doing
    it without the messanger line.
    
    For persons of average stature such as myself, even with the boom
    strapped in amidships and the sail full, I still have to work with my
    hands above my head.  It is very difficult to tie two lines together
    under these circumstances.  The procedure that evolved after numerous
    fiascos was to leave the messenger line as a continuous loop connecting
    the 2nd and 3rd reefs and never to untie it.  To reeve the reef line I
    taped it to the messenger with the two lines parallel to each other. 
    Then pulling the messanger line one full revolution brought the the
    tail of the reef line up to the reef clew and down the other side.  If
    it was too wet for tape, a twist tie from a garbage bag also worked,
    especially if placed just behind the whipping on the reef line.
    
    With experience we found the easiest way to avoid gymnastics on the
    boom end was to pick which two of the three reef points we wanted for
    the day and to reeve those.  Either flattener and #1 or #1 and #2.  If
    we had chosen #1 and #2 and it lightened up later, it was easy to
    unstring the #2 and put it into the flatener clew.  
    
    - gene

re -.1:

Hmmm, is the cost saving really worth the extra risk? Maybe if you're 
sailing in protected waters and not very rough seas, but (IMHO)
definitely not when sailing offshore or shorthanded or at night. If the
clew reef line you're depending on for multiple reefs fails (due to
chafe, whatever), you could be in really serious trouble. Far better
(IMHO) to have multiple reefs, each with a separate line. There is
increased safety in redundancy. 

Alan

	A friend has an internal rigged boom with four sheaves at each end.
	There is a track with five movable deadeyes on the bottom of the 
	boom.  He would like to know how to rig this system for reefing 
	lines, outhaul, topping lift, etc. with lines leading to cockpit.
	I've never seen the boat, so can not give any great details.

	Any ideas will be appreciated.

	Don
    

    
    	This sounds like mine, except I've got fixed pad eyes; cheezier
    than movable eyes.
    
    	Are there cleats up front? Something's gonna have to hold these
    lines. Anyway, string the lines from front out thru back blocks, up
    thru the reef grommets, down to the eye below the grommet. Slightly aft
    is necessary to pull some of the fullness out of the foot. The owner
    can tweak as necessary. 4 lines gives you outhaul, flattener, 1st reef
    and 2nd reef. No flattener? 3rd reef!
    
    	I'd string the topping lift down the mast if possible- otherwise
    use one of the 4, heading straight up- less weight aloft, I guess-
    I myself like lotsa reefability.
    
    	And you've got your nice little figure-8's (or somesuch) at the
    deadeyes. Cleat up front as necessary, and off you go, on those small
    craft warning days, as the stinkpotters watch jealously from ashore.
    
    	Must be plain hell ashore...!
    
    	Scott_who'd_rather_be_messing_about

    Yes, he does have jam cleats at the forward end of the mast, so these
    lines don't come aft to the cockpit?  If one was to lead them aft, one
    must remove the jam cleats and add turning blocks at the base of the 
    the mast and aft to cabin mounted jam cleats.  Is this right?
    
    Also, is there any preference too which sheave I use for any line, ie,
    an inner sheave for the outhaul for alignment?
    
    Thanks, there is a great wealth of info in this conference.
    
    Don

    
    	Yep you've got it. I have a dedicated winch right under the
    gooseneck for these lines. If I led them aft, the total lines would
    approach a dozen. Scary, financially.
    
    	I use the inner sheaves for outhaul & flattener, just to keep the
    snags to a minimum. The inners will probably be tightened before the
    outers, so the outers won't draw them in. Gravity and ship's motion
    would tend to let inners get sucked into outer sheaves. And alignment,
    yep, you don't want the outhaul yanked any more sideways than
    neccessary.
    
    	But what a spaghetti-mess up front when they're being used! Best to
    coil first, unless your helmsperson is getting upset...
    
    	Scott.

    The June 1990 edition of "Cruising World" (I think that is the right
    edition) has a very good article on reefing.  1 line, 2 lines, internal
    sheaves, external blocks etc.
    
    I particularly liked an arrangement that was "sort of" single line and
    also led back to the cockpit.
    In essence it was :
    
    1 line reeved from a pad eye on the boom up through the clew and down
    from the sail to a cheek block.  From the cheek blok, the line goes
    forward to one end of a block and tackle.
    
    another line reeved through the tack from a pad eye on the mast, down
    to a cheek block on the boom and then to the other end of the block and
    tackle.
    
    the bitter end of the block and tackle leads forward to the mast where
    it is turned on a block and leads to the cockpit.
    
    This then gives the mechanical advantage of the block and tackle to the
    single line reefing system.  
    
    I am going to experiment with this system on a small boat this summer
    and if it works I will put it on mine.

    Has anyone had experience with the Hood Stoboom? This looks like an
    excellent compromise; I believe it is intended as a furler/reefer, and
    because the mainsail furls into the boom, it is possible to use a
    battened or non-battened sail.
    
    From what I saw at the Newport boat show, the only things that may be
    an issue would be 1) chafing at the boom's exit slot, and 2) what
    happens if the main sheet parts?

    I looked at the Stowboom, and asked what to me was the obvious
    question, "how do you keep the main flat when you reef"? The answer was
    that you can't!! The tack runs through a plastic track which can move
    aft, the leach is just wrapped around, therefore there is nothing
    holding the leach and luff apart. 
    
    I would not want to put it on a sailboat which was expected to go
    offshore. 
    
                         Bill

    Note .29 mentions the use of foam pads to shape the roller genoa when
    only partially deployed.
    
    At a seminar at one of the Annapolis sail lofts, they recommended these
    highly both for performance as well as sail life.  The cost is $8 per
    foot.  For my genoa, this is about $400.
    
    In talking to another sailmaker, they use layers of cloth rather than
    foam because they say the foam deteriorates.  This is not any heavier
    and the cost for my sail is a reasonable $125.
    
    Has anyone had pro or con experiences with either of these?