Conference unifix::sailing

    Similar rumors have surfaced from time to time over the years.  A
    friend who knew the captain from a few administrations back was active
    in a campaign to have sails made for such a trip.  Not much came of it.
    
    Making the generous assumption that the refit will make the hull and
    rigging structurally capable of sailing, there are still the problems of
    finding suitable crew and inventing a justifiable excuse for
    undertaking such an adventure.
    
    The crew problem would likely be the more insurmountable of the two. 
    How many people in the Navy know how to sail a square rigger?  Probably
    -0-.  But with training and enough 18 year olds who don't know any
    better, anything is possible.
    
    With SDI starving for funds, four magnificent battleships about to be
    retired, and a whole fleet of B2 bombers in need of care and affection,
    can we justify such a cavalier expenditure of precious taxpayer
    dollars???  
    
    - gene

    
    RE: .0
    
    <<<According to standing law,
    <<<public money cannot be used towards refit of a Commissioned Government
    <<<vessel.
    
    Hmmmm.  Who paid to refit the Battleships to fire cruise missiles?
    
    Kerbey

I don't think finding a crew would be so tough.  The Coast Guard had a square
rigger that they use for training and I think all midshipmen have to serve on
it for a summer.  The Navy has a similar program, although I'm not sure if
they have a square rigger--would not surprise me to find out they did.

Money though is a bigger problem.  But then again, with private funds
(provided that gets allowed), you don't run afoul of congressional efforts (HA!)
to cut the budget.

I wonder what condition this ship is really in.  Could cost millions to get
her in sailing shape, but then again, I'd DEFINITELY want to be out there
seeing it if it happened.

F.

Note 1693.2              SAILING THE U.S.S. Constitution                  2 of 3
THEBAY::ALTMANNKE                                    10 lines  28-MAR-1991 19:09
                        -< No public money for refit? >-
   > Hmmmm.  Who paid to refit the Battleships to fire cruise missiles?
    
    Kerbey,
    
     You misunderstand. The government can appropriate money from the
    treasury, but you cannot walk up to the Commander and give him a check.
    See the difference?
    
    Gene,
    
     Your point is well taken. Another argument against are the starving
    and homeless people in the very district the Constitution sits in.
    So I think that if the Navy can get special dispensation to use money
    collected at fundraisers, then we avoid a whole lot of trouble. The
    Captain rells me that wherever he goes to give lectures (all over the
    country), he gets offers of money from the people. One guy was ready to
    write out a $1000 check. But the Captain couldn't take it because of
    the law.
    
    Crew,
    
     My idea is to skim 2 or 3 Navy ROTC cadets from each state, and post
    them to Constitution. They take summer cruises anyway. Also, get a few
    from the Academy.
    
     THEN you can get some from the Eagle (Coast Guard Training Bark) to
    leaven the ranks with somewhat experienced crews. The Navy has no
    sailing training ship of its own.
    
     The benefit of using Cadets is that Cadets from the Navy might be
    willing to listen to a Coast Guard Cadet with a bit of square rigger
    experience. Whereas a navy Seaman is not likely to listen to a cadet.
    
     By the way, the Coast Guard has already offered to train whatever crew
    gets raised for the venture, on the Eagle.
    
    Condition of the vessel.
    
     I am no surveyer, but in restoring my 70 year old wooden boat, I know
    rotten oak when I see it. We went over every inch of that ship. As far
    down as you can get - I was sitting on ballast stones - from stem to
    stern. 
    
     If you stand at the bow of the Orlop Deck, and look aft, you can see
    the deck slope upwards to a point where the deckbeam (underneath) has
    made a peak, and then see the deck slope back down. Dagger Knees are
    separated from their attach points by as much as an inch (in the bow
    and stern). They estimate that there is about a 15 inch hog in the keel
    which is causing all of this.
    
     The foremast is wobbling so much in high winds that you can see how
    the shims on the Orlop deck are being moved out of position.
    
     The ceiling (not overhead) looks good, but in places where they have
    removed the ceiling, you can see the original frames directly. MANY
    copper clench pins have failed. Some frames are a bit rotted.
    Breasthooks look ok (one is severly checked), but are separating from
    their positions dure to either fastener failure, hogging (twisting,
    actually), or both. In the extreme bow I saw the frames directly, and
    some copper pins have been replaced by hardwood dowels and epoxy. AND
    THE DOWELS DID NOT HAVE WEDGES DRIVEN INTO THEM (this is bad practice).
    
    	Now, over the years, the hog has increased. As they would replace
    pieces of the ship, the hog was more or less "locked in". So the main
    effort will be to cure the hogging. What amount of hog would be
    acceptable, I cannot say.
    
     Topsides, I noticed a few items:
    
     The heel of the Main Topmast is severly cracked. The Captain tells me
    that only 1/3 (!) of the STANDING rigging is in place. Some surveyors
    attribute the hoggin to that. Only a third of the running riggin is in
    place, but you would expect that.
    
     So that's what I noticed when the Commander took me through the
    vessel. No doubt there is more - much that escaped my inexperienced
    eye.
    
     But I would argue that the vessel itself is at risk unless the
    problems are dealt with. Forgetting the notion of sailing, the vessel
    needs an extensive overhaul. The Navy has tentatively planned a small
    overhaul in 1992, with a major refit in 1998.
    
     The Captain argues (correctly I believe), that:
    
    1) If you wait another 8 years the problems will be more costly to fix
    as they continue to get worse over the 8 years.
    
    2) Every time you put her in dry dock, you stress the vessel.
    
    3) Why pay the costs of 2 overhauls when you can do the entire job in
    one?
    
    4) Do it now so that she is fit for her bicentennial.
    
    Gregg
    
    

    I've been visiting the Constitution since I was a kid.  A great trip
    for the romantic history hound.
    
    To me, the value of the vessel is not her sailing abilities but her
    inspirational qualities.  She should be preserved and maintained in
    some state that captures her status as a memorial to the idealism of
    the founding of the nation and the patriotism of the crews who served
    aboard.
    
    What a thrill it was to stand on HMS Victory in Portsmouth, England or
    USS Olympia in Philadelphia.  Not really important that neither is
    sea-worthy.  Victory is, in fact, in a dry-dock which in itself has
    historical significance.
    
    Placing a shrine in harms way doesn't stike me as a good strategy for
    preservation.  A couple of tens of millions of dollars so that ship 
    can move to Marblehead under sail for an afternoon commander's reception?? 
    What conceit.
    
    Ron

    Ron,
    
     A couple points;
    
    1) The conceit you accuse the present commander of having is a bit
    misplaced since he'llbe retiring the September. He'll be totally out of
    the picture by 1998.
    
    2) The stay at Marblehead is for a week. The general public will have
    access to the ship as well as the ability to see it under sail all
    along the North Shore.
    
    3) Who says that, if the sail is successful, Marblehead will be the
    ONLY place it ever sails to?
    
    Gregg

    What an inspiration that grand old lady has been to all sea loving
    people of this nation.
    
    Many years age, my uncle served as an ensign aboard her for one
    of his tours of duty while in the navy. He entered as a seaman at
    17 and retired 47 years later as a Lt. Cmdr.
    
    Restore her? Hell yes.
    
    Start a fund raiser to restore her physically and to rig and bend
    on sails.. Why not?
    
    Write our people in Congress to get a bill passed to allow this
    to take place.
    
    How much nicer it would be to see this grand old ship under sail
    greeting all those foreigh tall ships when they visit Boston.
    
    For a weeks time, let the Coast Guard man her, they have the
    experience.
    Paul
    

    The Constitution is a true national monument.  For this nation to even
    think of risking her to the ravages of time while there is something
    that can be done about it is tragic.  We p*ss away more money every day
    as a nation than it would take to put her back into shape.
    
    Now, what do I mean by "shape"?  Sailing condition?  No.  Stabilize
    Ironsides to last a long time in the duty she is now pulling.  that is
    as a stationary historical site.  The difference is probably great.  No
    less of a task, but different in function.  I would rather have
    Ironsides there for my grandkids to see, feel and touch than I would
    like to see her do a stunt voyage.  The two may not be mutually
    exclusive, but to focus on the primary mission seems like a good idea
    to me.
    
    Dave

    I would have to agree with the the previous response. I remember seeing
    Ironsides as a kid nearly 30 years ago. I have a model at my parents
    house that my brother and I (I'm sure my father did most of the work)
    built. I hope to take my girls there when they are a little older.
    
    I would like the ship to be there for many more years. Taking her to
    sea may be a far greater risk than some would imagine. I would also
    comment that 8 years more before a major refit should not make as big a
    difference as one would think. After all the ship is 200 years old.
    
    Maybe now though is not the right time. I agree with the need to
    preserve historical artifacts. But to spend an excessive amount on
    this ship while so much rebuilding must go on in our community and
    society does not seem prudent.  
    
    Keep her and preserve it.
    
    S. 

    RE: .9
    
    as far as cost is concerned the idea is to get Congressional approval
    to use funds that people send in as opposed to Federal Money. Already
    the Commander has been offered thousands wherever he goes.
    
     As to not sailing due to fear of losing the ship - when has she EVER
    refused a risky situation? There are dozens of rebuilt wooden vessels
    sailing the seas on much more hazardous voyages than a few miles to
    Marblehead. BTW, there will be tugs trailing a ways behind just in
    case. Like any voyage, safety depends upon a small dose of pessimism
    and good contingency plans.
    
     Gregg

    
    Wasn't the Constitution refitted to its current condition (that is,
    a ship rather than a floating office) with funds raised by
    schoolchildren many years ago?  Perhaps the "standing law" that
    prohibits public funding for a commissioned vessel was not in effect
    then, or perhaps the Constitution was not in commission.  But there
    would seem to be a precedent for using contributions to refit this
    ship. After all, we're talking about a historical resource, not a ship
    of the line.  The fact that it's in commission shouldn't be an
    obstruction.
    
    Yeah, I'd contribute some bucks.  I don't see the money I'd give (and
    hopefully, Digital would match) to be dollars that would otherwise go
    to rebuild highways or revitalize the American industrial base.  It 
    would just be a few fewer dollars for Jerry's kids or an alumni fund.
    

    The Constitution is like my grandfather's axe.  My father replaced the
    handle and I replaced the head but it's still my grandfather's axe.
    
    Clearly, it's the concept and not the physical entity that's the
    important thing.  Wooden fighting ships, I've read, needed major
    overhauls after each campaign.  It wouldn't be surprising if within two
    decades after commissioning, over 50% of the original Constitution got
    replaced.  There have been many refits since then and most of what is
    normally in view is un-original.  
    
    If the Constitution's mission is to induce patriotic fervor, I believe
    that purpose is best served by restoring her to her fighting/sailing
    prime.  It was done with the J-boat Endeavor.  She gets sailed,
    chartered, and even raced and no one worries about her sinking (except
    the insurance company).  
    
    If all we want is a historic relic, let's cut away everything
    put on since 1812 and put a few ribs and worm eaten keel timbers on
    display.  That's like pointing to a surviving set of George Washington's
    false teeth and saying "that's the father of our country".  
    
    If the next refit is to be a major one with a lot of material being
    replaced, there is the opportunity for the whole thing to be self
    financing.  Take a Sawzall, cut away everything we don't want to keep,
    saw it into 3" x 5" pieces, package it tastfully in twist tie baggies,
    and sell them to the public at $5.00 a pop.  They'll look great on the
    mantlepiece next to the Berlin Wall fragments and the Franklin Mint
    Elvis memorial plate collection.  The proceeds should cover labor and
    materials for the new Constitution, maybe even a new set of sails.
    
    - gene

    Re: .11
    
     Yeah - in 1927, schoolkids pennies were collected for a refit. But
    that was before the present law that inhibits that.
    
     We are currently trying to get Rep. Kennedy to introduce the
    legislation that is presently on his desk (and has been for 2 years)
    which would give us special dispensation.
    
     Gene,
    
     Interesting you should mention selling pieces. The rudder was removed
    and all the copper sheathing taken off to check out the wood. The
    sheathing cannot be reused, so one idea is to melt it down and make
    coins that are partly "Constitution Rudder Sheathing Copper", and sell
    them. So your idea is not so far fetched.
    
     BTW, the Dry Dock - Constitution was the first ship and the LAST ship
    to use it - is being rebuilt out of Constitution funds.
    
    Gregg

     Re: previous
    
    Now if you REALLY want to raise funds, melt the copper sheathing into
    ELVIS memorial coins.  Maybe rename the ship U.S.S Graceland.
    
    The Endeavour is really a brand new boat using the original design and
    a few (very few!) pieces just for conversation.  While the Constitution
    may not be "original" it's not this scale of rebuild either.  
    
    The Air and Space museum in Washington D.C has the Apollo module that
    carried the astronauts to and from the moon on display.  Just seeing it
    is eery and impressive.  They have no plans (that I know of anyway) to
    reorbit the module every now and then to reinforce in the public's mind
    what it was used for.  
    
    To refit the constitution for sailing would be neat, but what you would
    have left would be even less original than what we have now.  And
    truly, what is the point?  
    
    Dave (who swears he's not a commie or anything!)

    Dave,
    
     We all know you are not a commie. :^)
    
     But the fact is that the refit needed for sailing is the exact same
    refit if you weren't going to sail, as far as the hull and masts go.
    And commands most of the refit budget.
    
    It's only the rigging and sails that are an addition.
    
     And as far as the rigging goes, only ***1/3**** of the standard
    rigging is actually rove. Some theorize that the lack of standing
    rigging is contributing to the hogging.
    
    Gregg

    As the great, great, great, great, great grandson of
    a former Captain and Sailing Master of the Constitution, I'd 
    love to see her under canvas and would try like heck to wangle a ride.  
    If the difference between a "preservation" refit and a sailing
    refit is basically the rig -- that's probably debateable -- then why not
    do it?  Sure, they don't plan to re-orbit the LEM, but that was
    *never* the intent.  The Constitution made many voyages
    and is a commsioned vessel, and much of her inspirational
    mystique lies in the perception of her readiness to do battle
    again -- a venerable patriot ever ready to heed the call 
    to duty.  Talk about punctuating the patriotic fervor of 
    the day!  But whether of not *that's* a good idea...
    
    Dean 

    Let's not forget her sister ship The U.S.S. Constellation, harbored in
    similar fashion in Baltimore.  
    
    After refitting, I can see great days of match racing,  along the
    Atlantic coast.  We set an olympic course with 50 mile legs and have
    D.C. and Ted Turner on each poop-deck.  Could be VERY INTERESTING at the
    weather mark.  The ESPN contract alone could cover much of the refit
    costs. (;>

    
    	Yes, but where do you find gunners these days? Hmmm, maybe the
    	powder-monkey position is still open...
    
    	Yep, REALLY interesting roundings, depending on whether grapeshot
    	is allowed. Really messes up the Kevlar topsails. Maybe USYRU
    	should make a water-ballons only rule. Protests decided when the
    	survivors are fished out of the water. 
    
    	THAT's entertainment!
    
    	Scott.

    Well I suppose we could try and get HMS Victory fit for the water again
    and have some match racing around the cans in the Solent run by the
    Royal Yacht Squadron followed by a  series run by a certain
    yacht club in New York.........
    
    
    Pete
    
    

    The ship anchored in Baltimore is NOT the Constellation. In the
    mid-1800's, Congress was authorizing money for ship repair but
    no money for new construction. The Constellation was a wreck. They
    "repaired" her by hauling her into a large building, chopping her
    into pieces and burning the evidence. Then they built a new ship
    from scratch.
    
    One of this countries older arms scandals.
    
    Paul 

    Seems to me that the weather mark had better not be too far to weather
    if I remember anything about square rigger's beating abilities.  What I
    would love to see is a ripple broadside.  This baby carries 32 pounders
    on the gundeck, absolutely unheard of in a frigate of her time.  
    
    The british navy put 12 pounders on their 28-32 gun frigates and 18
    pounders on the larger 36+ gun frigates.  74's, line of battle ships,
    which the Constitution certainly was not, carried 18 pounders on the
    upper deck and 24pounders on the lower gundeck.  Only the three
    decker's carried 32 pounders in the Royal navy.
    
    Any doubt why the Constitution never lost a ship to ship duel? A common
    spec for the time was that a 32 pounder would drive a ball through
    three feet of oak at one mile.  Constitution carries 32 of these on the
    gundeck.  The only place they served on british frigate was as bow
    chasers, also known as the "long nine"(nine feet long).
    
    Just think of a mock battle in New York or Boston harbor between two of
    these beauties.  Nothing like this has been seen for 150 years.  These
    ships carried 360+ crew and still could not fight both sides and sail
    her at the same time.
    
    This would be spectical to see.
    

    Cannons on the racers insteada the RC boat? 
    
    Like it!
    
    `course NYYC may get a bit nervous, or at least outfit with a few
    Patriots... and stand off a few miles!
    
    What a show.
    
    Scott_who_still_likes_waterballons

    
        When the Navy decommissioned the USS Nautilus SSN-571, the plan
    was to send it to a boneyard.  The people of southeastern Conn and many
    of the submarine veterans got together and raised 5 million dollars to
    build a memorial.  Legislation was passed, the Nautilus was towed back
    to Groton (courtesy of the Navy!) and active duty personnel are there
    as tour guides.  
    
        I'm sure a city like Boston and the sailing community could raise
    the money to refit the Constitution.  To see history under sail would
    be inspiring.
    
    Dave
    

    
    Today's Globe says that they're going to do it.  North is
    building sails.  A crew is being formed and will sail the
    Eagle for practice.  Should be a sight.