Conference unifix::sailing

    I have a long (full) keel that has 3,500 lbs of lead enclosed inside
    the keel.
    
    The full keel provides better tracking and far better protection
    should you hit bottom.
    
    The fin keel are great if your going to race and want to have greater
    maneuverability. However, if you should hit a rock at 7 knots, it
    could be rotated backwards and up into the hull. This of course
    would enable you to wash the inside of the boat using the high pressure
    water coming in the boat. %^)
    
    I much prefer the full keel style boats and would never even consider
    anything else.
    
    One other advantage is that the propeller is housed in an opening
    and thus is protected fro the most part.
    
    Paul

    Long keels are slower, mainly because of the extra surface area, and
    are only usually fitted to heavy boats.
    
    The main advantage is that they track better ( i.e. it is easier to
    sail in a straight line ). Also, provided the bottom of the keel is
    parallel to the waterline, then it is easier to dry out, as the boat
    won't tip forwards.
    
    The advantages of fin keels are purely performance ones. A fin keel
    gives better lift, therefore better windward performance. They give
    less drag, which means better light wind performance. Generally fin
    keels are deeper, which means more righting moment for the same
    weight
    
    The choice is yours !
    
    Chris
    

    Please, not the Great Keel Debate  again!

RE: .0,

>>>  To start with I'm only going from Sweden to England and France etc.,
>>>  but later it's possible that we're going over the Atlantic to the
>>>  Caribbean. 
    
Many sailors consider the North Sea at least as great a test of boat and 
crew as most regions of the Atlantic.  Weather can change very quickly, 
the bottom shoals in many places making waves that can be very short and
steep, and temperatures can be quite cool even in summer.  Don't under-
estimate what looks like "only" a relatively short passage on the map! 

J.

    re : .0
    
    I partially agree but in the North Sea and the English Channel you are
    rarely more than ten hours away from a harbour of refuge........the
    Atlantic would seem to be a slightly different kettle of fish.....
    
    My own thoughts are that for the North Sea , English Channel, and the
    Med a fin keel boat is fine 'cos at worst I will have a few hours of
    discomfort and the boat would only have to take the strain for the same
    time. For the Atlantic we have always thought of a longer keel ala
    Halberg Rassey 352, More comfort for longer and less strain on the boat
    if it gets rough. Having said that.........many fin keel boats do the
    Atlantic ie Moody's, Sadlers, Westerly's etc etc  I also have a
    preference for a stub of cast iron on a fin keel boat or a shoe on an
    encapusulated keel.
    
    cheers...........Pete
    

See also notes:

   195  MOTHER::BLAISDELL    22-OCT-1985     7  Shopping for a Keel
   303  SATIRE::SITTERLY     13-MAY-1986     7  Deep Keel vs Shoal Draft
   476  SKYLRK::MARCOTTE     29-JAN-1987     8  full keel vs fin keel
   558  CAMLOT::BLAISDELL    14-MAY-1987     8  update on wing keels
   803  SRFSUP::PAPA         21-APR-1988    34  Offshore Sailing Vessels?
  1080   HYEND::SVAILLANT    27-DEC-1988    25  Fin vs. Wing Keels

Everything I have read indicates the the very best keel construction is 
external lead. When hitting a ledge or rock, lead deforms and absorbs 
much of the impact (a charterer banged our boat into a granite ledge at 
5+ knots and the only damage was a big dent in the external lead keel). 
A iron keel does not deform and transmits all the impact into the hull. 
This can easily cause substantial damage. Grounding an encapsulated keel 
(lead or iron) can easily damage the outer fiberglass skin, allowing 
water into the ballast. This can be difficult (costly) to repair in some 
cases. In my opinion, an external lead keel is the only choice for 
serious cruising. I would also choose a long fin keel with the rudder on 
a skeg well aft (just like my Valiant). See note 476. 

    
    
    	Alan's right on here. Just bought a iron, fin keel Beneteau; the
    	setup you `shouln't buy'. The past owner, on what was probably the
    	cruise that made him take up golf, smacked pretty hard into a rock
    	in Buzzard's Bay. And, yep, all that energy went into some damage.
    	It seems, tho, that the manufacturer built around this; there's
    	plenty of solid glass, stringers, etc. that would have to break
    	before water started coming in.
    	Anyhow, I first saw her in the damaged shape. The lower, leading
    	edge had a small bite missing, a business card could almost be
    	stuffed into a gap between the upper leading edge and hull. The
    	aft upper edge showed no deformation, altho of course I suspected
    	softness.
    	The repair ended up costing almost $6K. Expensive afternoon. 
    	Now that she sails around Boston (the sludge is being played
    	with; the rocks still beckon) we keep an eye or two on the
    	fatho.
    	There's also the arguments; rusting, fairability, etc.
    	We took all that into account. Since we PHRF her, and maintenance
    	is somewhat regular, I doubt much will degrade unabated.
    	All in all, the value and overall quality sold us on her.
    	At the beginning of the search, I'd have never considered steel,
    	but, so far so good.
    	Also, if you are in fear of going up on rocks, stay away from
    	cored hulls. Probably somewhat disposable.
    	Is there anything but hearsay, like insurance reports, on fin
    	vs. full keels in almost-breakups?
    	Oh well, pay yer money, takes yer chances, and remember that
    	buoy probably isn't where the chart sez. At least around here!
    	Have fun shopping!
    
    	Scott.
    

    Thanks for your replies.
    
    Re .3:
    
    I didn't want to start general keel a debate, but to get some 
    informations that I couldn't find in earlier notes, i e should
    you consider using a fin keel boat if you want to make safe and 
    comfortable journeys over the North Sea and the Atlantic (or any
    ocean passage) using charts that you do not trust 100%? Maybe I
    should rename the head note to "Keel for offshore cruising".
    
    My conclusion is that it is probably better to buy a full (lead)
    keel boat for this kind of usage. I have found a couple of nice
    and roomy boats for sale, one with a lead fin keel and the other 
    with iron fin keel. After reading this I should probably consider 
    waiting until I find something suitable with a full lead keel.
    
    I'd also like to know if anyone has heard of negative impacts when
    using furling genoas on offshore trips. Do they break easier (than
    standard sails)?            
    
    Christer

    In the past I have read quite some articles, followed discussions,
    talked to other sailors about fin keel vs full keel, lead vs steel,
    7/8 rigg vs top rigg. Finally I feel that this to every sailor is
    more a religion and everybody chooses what he feels comfortable with.
    I.e Wilfried Erdmann who was the first German sailing nonstop round
    the world in 272 days swears that the fin keel is the best. Other 
    great sailors swear the full keel is the best. 
    
    So, what's right?
    
    Read, talk, sail..... and build your own religion.
    
    Anything I missed???
    
    
    Mast und Schotbruch
    
    Klaus
                  

    Klaus,
    
    I guess you're right. Since I'm fairly new to sailing, I still want
    to have the feeling of security before performance and as far as
    I can judge, the full keel is generally (maybe not always) better
    when grounding. After 700 miles I haven't done it yet, but you never
    know...
    
    Christer
    
    

re -.1:

But there is more to security than just minimizing damage in a 
grounding. For instance, in general, fin keel boats sail to weather 
better than full keel boats. Since you will sooner or later be caught 
off a lee shore, the better windward ability of a fin keel boat may mean 
the difference between safety and disaster. With a good depthsounder and 
reasonable care, going aground should be an infrequent occurance. The 
(usually) better overall sailing ability of a fin keel boat is something 
useful every time you sail.

There are fin keel boats that are, I think, as strong as full keel 
boats. The problem is is that most fin keel boats are quite racing 
oriented. Hence, they have shallow bilges and flattish bottoms and very 
short (fore and aft length) keels. These design features make it very 
difficult to build the boat strongly enough to survive a hard grounding 
without substantial damage. There are fin keel boats (eg, Valiants) with 
long (fore and aft length) fin keels, V-shaped hulls, deep bilges, and 
tremendously strong construction. Such boats are, alas, rare. 

Re roller furling: I have long been skeptical of roller furling for 
offshore sailing, but with the success of Profurl in the BOC and other 
races I may change my mind but only because I have a cutter. I still 
believe that one must be able to hank on a storm jib without having to 
get a larger jib off a roller furling headstay. 

    Christer,
    
    is there any reason why you look so serious onto grounding
    "capabilities". Grounding is a nightmare for every sailor and with
    enough care hopefully never happens.
    
    Looking at full or fin keel again you should also consider with what
    type of storm tactics you feel more comfortable. Going with strong wind
    on a fin keeler is not always fun mainly with these pre balanced
    rudders (hope this is the right expression) they have now a days. A lot
    of sailors prefer with fin keelers to tack as long as possible but this
    is another religious discussion. 
    
    As Alan, for long time I felt more comfortable without furler. In the
    meanwhile I only charter boats with furler. Two reasons for this.
    Furlers have improved a lot since they came up. I usually sail only
    with my wife and a furler is easier to handle if there are only two on
    bord. If I had my own boat I would definitely install a second for stay
    for a storm jib.
    
    
    Klaus

    Currently I sail a Swedish designed fin keeler. Seventies vintage so
    not a radical fin shape. Encapsulated lead.
    My previous boat was a long keel (iron).
    The long keel was definately more comfortable down wind but a dog going
    to windward. However she did dry out easily against a pier between
    tides. The current fin keeler is away better for general cruising, far
    better windward performance but lacks the ability to jump over the
    salmon nets which plague us on the West coast of Ireland.
    My experience says that a fin keel of moderately long proportions and a
    skeg mounted rudder coupled with deep bilges and a good ballast ratio
    is the better. i.e. the Halberg Rasseys and for instance the Contessa
    32 (47% ballast ratio).
    Many of the more modern designs, although offering vast accomodation
    space do not to my mind show great sea-keeping ability, poorly
    protected balanced rudders, shallow bilges and low ballast ratios.