Conference unifix::sailing

    Paul,
        Sympathies. how about getting the head off yourself and having
    a look. It is just faintly possible that you may have just blown
    a head gasket, is the oil slghtly emulsified? If it is bad news
    I would recommend going the diesel route but I don't understand
    why you would need to change your prop? Diesel engines are a lot
    less trouble and easier to service than petrol, fault diagnosis
    is also easier at sea not to mention somewhat less volatile fuel....
    
    Good luck.......Pete

re .0:

Having had a similar experience, you have my sympathy also. 

I would suggest removing the cylinder head yourself. This could be done
with the engine in the boat. If at all possible, use an electric or air
impact wrench (both will require access to shore power) to loosen the
various bolts as this will reduce the chances of shearing a bolt. If you
do shear a head bolt, I would expect that you'll have to remove the 
engine from the boat and take it to a machine shop for professional 
help. 

If the head comes off without disaster, replace the head gasket and 
reassemble. If the engine runs well enough, smile and start saving for a 
new engine. 

If not ..... 

How long do you plan to keep the boat? A diesel engine should increase
the resale value somewhat, but I don't know if the increase would be
enough to offset the additional cost of a diesel. 

Your engine is probably not worth much. After 22 years it likely needs 
a major overhaul -- rings, bearings, valves, etc. The overheating may 
have damaged the pistons, piston rings, and/or cylinder walls. If it 
were the end of the sailing season, I'd suggest rebuilding the engine 
yourself. Much of the cost is labor and any competent automotive machine 
shop can do the necessary machining. 

However, at this point I'd either buy the good, used engine or a new 
diesel (Universal makes a diesel that is a direct replacement for the 
Atomic 4). How much do you fear gasoline? Me, a lot. If you replace the 
engine, it might be a good time replace the fuel tank, too. (On some 
boat, ours for one, the engine must be removed to remove the fuel tank.)

re .1:

I disagree about the ease of maintaining and diagnosing diesels. All a 
diesel needs is fuel and air. Right, but determining why a diesel won't 
start can be exceedingly difficult. Is there enough compression? Does
the fuel pump work? Does the injector pump work? Even if it pumps some
fuel, the timing may be wrong or the amount of fuel may be wrong. Do the
injectors work? Some very special and expensive equipment is needed to
test, adjust, and overhaul diesel fuel system components. I once spent
days trying to get our diesel to start (see a very old note for details). 
Our problem was seized piston rings. The engine had 200 psi of compression 
and needed at least 400 psi to start. The compression tester used by the
mechanic was only about $2000. I think finding the problem with a
gasoline engine is easier, but so much less safe that I wouldn't want to
do it. 

Alan

    Alan,
        Having spent a full weekend on learning about my Volvo diesel
    I am not unaturally fully optimistic 8^). Seriously though I believe
    with on board spares and reasonable training a diesel is easier
    to problem solve and fix for the average problems. Once you get
    into the realms of complex problems I do not believe there is a
    lot to choose. I could tell you some real horror stories of the
    time taken to diagnose and fix accessible petrol engines. Thus I
    guess we will have to agree to disagree :^)
    
    
    Pete  

re .3:

Ah, but the difference is that your diesel was designed and built in 
Sweden, mine was designed and built in England!

Alan_who_is_mostly_an_Anglophile

PS I took a how to maintain my diesel course from the importer, which is 
the only reason I have been able to keep my sanity while keeping the 
silly thing running. I persist in my view that a carburated, no pollution 
controls, no electronic magic boxes petrol engine is easier to diagnose 
than a diesel. Add fuel injection, pollution controls, and magic boxes 
(ala my automobile engines) and it is a different story.

   Thanks to all who have responded.
    
   Alan; although I would prefer to go with a deisel, I am leaning towards
    a replacement atomic 4 gas. Dollars is the main reason. But also,
    I have no fear of gas. I try to maintain the engins and lines as
    they should be and always sniff and vent before turning the engine
    over. I feel that gas has been used for years with only a very small
    percentage of 1 percent ever having an explosive experience, I feel,
    why worry?
    
    Not being a mechanic, I don't feel a ease trying to pull the head
    off myself. Thus, I will have a mechanic check it out and pull the
    head if needed. I don't have any of the tools you mentioned either.
    Also, being at Cape Porpoise, I have limited access to the dock
    during the day and only when the fishing boats are at sea. If I
    have to have major work done, I'll have to go to Kennebunkport and
    rent a slip for a few days.
    
    Of course, as the engine has lasted 22 years, there just isn't any
    room for any complaints. Sure was one damn fine engine.
    
    Paul
    

    re .4:    '                 
    T O U C H E                
                               
    Pete_who_even_has_the_token_American_Friend
               

>	I feel that gas has been used for years with only a very small
>    percentage of 1 percent ever having an explosive experience, I feel,
		   ^^^^^^^^^
>    why worry?
    
	Let's see, I've had this boat for a few seasons and its the 300th
time I've started this engine.  Statistically, I'm about to walk on the moon.

	Thanks, but no thanks. I'll take diesel every time.......

	Dave

    Paul, if the white smoke (steam) only happens when the thermostate
    opens it must be a head gasget.  Pulling the head should not be
    that difficult; even if you sheer a bolt it can bbe drilled out.
    
    The seacock should not be that loose.  Check on the other side of
    the handle for a nut.  Generally this nut should be loosened to
    turn the seacock handle and then re tightened.
    
    
    Best of luck,
    

re .0 and .8:

I agree that it sounds like your engine has a head gasket problem. 
Whether or not the thermostat is open, there is cooling water 
circulating in the cylinder head and block. Therefore, I rather doubt
that the cause of the white smoke appearing is the thermostat opening. 
Rather, I suspect that as the engine gets hot, the expansion of the 
head and block is such that the head gasket can no longer maintain a 
seal between them. Water then gets into the cylinders.

Therefore, the solution to your engine problem is to not let the engine 
get too hot. This could be accomplished easily and cheaply by simply 
placing a large block of dry ice on each side of the engine before you 
start it. This will keep the engine cold enough that the head gasket can 
maintain the seal between the head and block. Using dry ice to keep the 
engine cool has the significant added benefit of providing increased 
safety and protection against fire since dry ice is nothing more than 
solid carbon dioxide. Any fire will simply evaporate the dry ice 
quickly, filling the engine compartment with carbon dioxide, and 
extinguishing the fire. 

Creative solutions a speciality!

I wouldnt be to eager to get a new engine- from the description it sounds like
you have not done any major damaage- Id pull the head, but if you are not into
that sort of work, at least invest a few bucks in a mechanic for a good look
before you jump into whole new enginies.

As to the relative safety of gas or disel its a bit of a toss up- gas is more
likely to explode (Ive seen 3 bots do it in my 20+ years around the water) but
disel will soak in to  the wood like a wick and may burn significantly longer.
Bad scene either way- I heartliy agree with the proper care of fuel fittings!

    i had the same problem with an atomic 4...white smoke,which was
    steam...my engine is ten years old and was rebuilt several years
    ago...i bought the boat last year...i looked around at the newer
    engines and after sticker shock i decided to get it fixed...it cost
    500.00...the engine now runs great.
    
    ps...when everyone in the file chips in to move me away from the
         atomic 4 gas to a diesel i'll install it. not many people would
         upgrade unless it was the only choice...for the 6k it would
         cost i'd buy a 34ft with a diesel..
    
    jfk

    Paul, one way to get an Atomic 4 head off (or at least started) the 
    studs is to back the head nuts off about 1/16".    Start the engine,
    the combustion process (if not completely frozen) will pop the head
    loose.  (Keep your face away from the cylinder head as crud does blow
    out the side).    Secure the engine right after it pops.   From that
    point on oak wedges driven in from 4 side is a method I have used to
    get the head up.
    
    When the head is reinstalled, put a good coating of Never Seeze on the
    studs & threads, makes a future removal much better.
    
    I agree with the other notes, that it sounds like a head gasket.

    
    Be carefull removing the head this way!!!  Not all the pistons are
    in compression at the same time and therefor a VERY uneven load
    is placed on the head.  If it does "POP" off without cracking due
    to the uneven pressure it may just crack due to the forces placed
    against the nuts!!  If that doesnt happen it may just snap a head
    bold and send it flying thru the engin compartment.....   This may
    sound like fantasy, but just think of what is going on and the area
    that you are working in 
    
    By all means if you feel that it can be accomplished by you then
    give it a try.  I have known people to accomplish a lot tougher
    jobs with a wrench and a book..  If you can have someone help that
    has done similar jobs, that will let you do the job more the better..
    It does feel good the first time you do a job like this, when you 
    get it back together and it fires up and runs.... ( actually even
    after the first time as well   8^) )
    
    good luck
    `Charlie'
    

    thanks to all who replied.
    
    Sat I had a mechanic look over the engine. He did a very thorough
    job. After performing many different tests and examining everything
    possible, he came to the conclusion:
    
    	1.	There was no water in the oil.
    
    	2.	No water had reached the cylinders or plugs.
    
    	3.	Compression in all four cylinders was just below what
    		would be considered normal.
    
    	4.	I was getting steam out of the exhaust.
    
    	5.	That this steam was coming from number 1 cylinder.
    
    	6.	The end result was that I have a very very small crack
    		in the block by the exhaust valve or in the manifold.
    
    		Because no water is getting in the cylinder, the water
    		is being converted to steam right at the exhaust port
    		and should have no adverse impact on operating the engine
    		for the rest of the year and maybe even five years.
    
    Now that this has been determined, we can plan for engine replacement
    some time in the future, after we have saved at least halv of the
    money required rather that being forced into it at an inoppurtune
    time.
    
    Thanks again
    
    Paul  

re .14:

Glad to hear that the news isn't so bad after all. But it isn't the 
nature of cracks not to get worse. Sigh. However, go poke around in the 
powerboats notesfile. Somewhere in there is a good description of a 
process for repairing cracked heads and blocks and the name of a fellow 
who does it.

    
    
     I just had a cracked exhaust manifold on my powerboat engine. Any good
    welding shop can weld cast isron- there are some interesting welding
    rods available than can fiz a crack i  short order. I would suspect
    the manifold based on your symptoms. Have your mechanic remove the
    manifold and check it for cracks- if it is cracked, have it welded, or
    replace the manifold( you might even be able to find a used one).
    
    On mine, the crack went right across the mounting flange where tha
    manifold bolted up against the block . I had to haver the manifold
    machined at an automotive machine shop and I was backin Business.
    
     Cost:
    
    Welding $20
    Machining $30
    Manifold gasket $6 ( it was a chevvy engine- bought at ato parts store)
    
    As far as mechanics go- some of these yard mechanics terrify me-they
    are not all that good- at least I haven't seen one that is. If youi
    want to save on $ and get some professional mechanics at a reasonable
    price- I have often contacted a reliable local automobile reapir shop
    or the service manager of a reputable dealership. A lot of these
    mechanics moonlight to pick some extra $.  
    
    last year I had crb trouble on my Engine- yard solution was a new carb
    for $500 installed - I got a moonlight mechanic by contatcting a freind
    who was a service manager  at the local Chrysler dealership. One of his
    mechanics stopped by the boat on the way home from work- diagnosed and
    fixed the problem.
    
     My Bill?
    
     $50- the mechanic was one happy puppy and with a $450 saving- so was I 
     The yards won't let a nother mechanic or outside labor in- but pulling
    a head or a manifold can be done with the boat at the mooring.
    
    If you have to pull the head, get it to a machine shop and have it
    planed. If the engine git that hot-it is almost certaion to be warped.
    
    Those Atomic 4's are pretty simple little engines- any reasonable
    competent mechanic should be able to get you going. I would not just
    let it go- I've never seen a mechanical problem get better- they only
    get worse and you don't want the engine to quit on you just when you
    really need it.
    

    	Last week while waiting to be waited on in my local auto parts
    supply, I may have stumbled on a possible cheap repair for your
    cracked block problem. It's called "PORTERSEAL" and it claims to
    be able to fix cracked blocks, heads, and radiators. All you have
    to do is add it to your cooling system and it will seek out and
    plug the leak.
    	Sounds to me as if it would be worth a try as the stuff only
    costs about 4$. The only problems I see are how to keep this stuff
    recirculating through the system and providing your muffler with
    water to keep it from burning up while it's working.
    	In any event, good luck to you. Please let us know what you
    finally do about it.
    
    
    John W.