Conference turris::cooks

re: .0

This 

> Beat in two cups of all-purpose flour (King Arthur). Add a third cup
						     ^
Should have included                   "and a half teaspoon of kosher salt"

    Hi Jack,
    
    I think I let it rise twice, punch twice, put on cookie sheet,
    rise a bit, bake.
    
    I made some French Bread for my French Professor once and, in my
    usual fashion, I cut back a little on the salt.  His analysis
    was that it was almost as he remebered but could have been a little
    more airy and, ahhhh, didn't have enough salt.
    
    How do you get the classic Italian shape?  When I try for a "cigar"
    I get a "blob."
    
    ed

> When I try for a "cigar" I get a "blob."
    
Me too. That's another part of my problem, Ed. But I figured I'd go for
taste and texture first and then worry about form. :^)

(Actually, I'm guessing, but I suspect that if you can get it to rise
 properly before/during baking, the shape should take care of itself
 if preformed by rolling into shape slightly. Judging from the bread of
 my youth, a lengthwise cut on the top surface before baking is probably
 also recommended.)


-Jack

    Jack,
    
    	I've not had the Columbus Bakery bread you are speaking of - but it
    seems that upstate New York corners the market on "great" Italian
    bread.  One thing that seems a bit "off" in your receipe is letting the
    yeast/water mixture sit for 15 min. - once I get the water to the
    proper temperture (100-110 as mentioned) I work the yeast in and start
    working with it - is your yeast still "active" after 15 min.?  I make
    some killer sweet rolls and bread with this approach - you might give
    it a try...  
    
    	Good Luck!
    
    	Debbie (Schenectady, NY)

    I know exactly the loaves you are talking about (the ones you are
    trying for, and the ones you get!).  I've always just found it easier
    to buy the ones I want.  But in the course of some reading, I have some
    suggestions:
    
    One thing is to try using a bread flour.  It might give you a more
    "durable" loaf shape with a texture closer to the goal.
    
    Another is to use a baking stone.
    
    The last is to put some moisture into the oven after you put in the
    bread.  Have a foil pie plate in the bottom, and squirt/pour a bit of
    water into it.  This gives a much crisper crust.

    PS:  I find it easier to buy 'cause I can't get it to come out right,
    either.  And now I don't do bread often enough to even try.

re: buy vs. make

Unfortunately, at least here in Southern New Hampshire, none of the commercial
bakers know how to make it "right" (like I grew up with). If I was living in
Syracuse still, I'd buy it from Columbus bakery rather than trying to make
it (at a buck or so a loaf it's the bargain of the century). If I could buy
it here, I would, but I can't, so I don't. sob-whimper.

I'll try the "steam in the oven" and stone techniques, though. Is bread flour
a standard commodity? (I use King Arthur all purpose for everything and had
even seen it recommended for Italian Bread somewhere - although probably
not by Columbus Bakery!)

I was looking at 947.10 and noticed the commentary on multiple looooonnngggg
rises - maybe I need to try that as well. No more bread-baking-at-night-after-
work, I guess.

-Jack

    
    
    	Some ideas --
    
    	1. Multiple risings give the bread a finer texture.  Since you
           are describing bread with a 'lacy texture' and large air
    	   bubbles, you may want to limit the number of risings to one or
    	   two.
    
    	2. But, I would certainly suggest a good rising before the loaves
     	   are baked.  This is when the final air bubbles will be formed
    	   and these will expand some more in the hot oven until the bread
           is 'set'.
    
    	3. If the dough is too soft to form into a well-shaped loaf, it
    	   might be due to not having added enough flour.  Try adding
           another 1/2 cup or so.  Using a high-gluten flour will also help
           give more elasticity to the dough.
    
    	Good luck!
    

    If you liked Columbus, try DiLauro's, my gosh their bread is HEAVEN,
    my mom and I would drive over there and buy loaves to take home and
    an extra rolls to eat on the way home in the car!  (I grew up in 
    Syracuse too.)
    
    I suspect the problem may be the oven.  French people don't make their
    french bread at home, they go out an buy it, and I bet the Italians do
    the same -- there's something about the bread flour and the industrial
    ovens that does the trick better than king arthur and the radar-range.
    
    Peigi, who went to Nottingham High

re: .8, Brian

Thanks for the tips.

Maybe part of my problem is in misunderstanding semantics -

> Multiple risings give the bread a finer texture.  Since you
> are describing bread with a 'lacy texture' and large air
> bubbles, you may want to limit the number of risings to one or two.

I would describe the bread that I'm getting from my efforts as "dense",
with a heavy characteristic and small air bubbles. When you specify
"a finer texture" resulting from multiple risings, is this characteristic
of a light bread (airy to my way of thinking) or a heavy bread (dense
to my way of thinking).

> Using a high-gluten flour will also help give more elasticity to the dough.
    
So, is that a bread flour, as opposed to an all purpose flour? (Somehow I
thought King Arthur pegged itself as a "high-gluten flour" but I could
be way off base.)

Thanks,
-Jack

re: .4, Debbie

> One thing that seems a bit "off" in your receipe is letting the
> yeast/water mixture sit for 15 min. - once I get the water to the
> proper temperture (100-110 as mentioned) I work the yeast in and start
> working with it - is your yeast still "active" after 15 min.?

Now that you mention it, Debbie, that does seem a little bogus, doesn't it?
The yeast is sitting there in the water with nothing to "eat". I probably
should add some flour to it to make a "sponge", no?

-Jack

PS. Say "Hi" to Al K. for me if it's the Albany office by Crossgate Mall
    that you're located in.

    
    If your bread is heavy and dense, with small air holes, it sounds like
    a result of too much flour with multiple risings, (he said sagely,
    never having mastered this particular loaf either.)
    
    I have a friend who spent years in Italy and has spent years since he
    returned trying to duplicate the bread.  He conclusion is
    that it's impossible in the states:  the flour is milled differently.  
    
    FWIW.  
    
    
    

re: .12

>    If your bread is heavy and dense, with small air holes, it sounds like
>    a result of too much flour with multiple risings

 . . . or, perhaps, insufficient final rising before baking - this was my
 thought when I saw in 947.10 discussions about allowing the dough to not
 simply double but to "triple and a half". (!!!)

> it's impossible in the states:  the flour is milled differently.
    
 I dunno - I find it hard to believe that the Columbus Bakery in Syracuse
 is importing their flour . . . :^) But they sure could be buying a commercial
 variety that I can't get.

-Jack

The way I understand it, at one extreme, you have cake flour which is very low
in gluten.  At the other end is bread flour with a very high gluten content.
Somewhere in the middle range is all purpose flour.  Some markets sell bread
flour, and you could definitely find it in a specialty/health foods type of 
place.

    This may not be the answer but I was thinking about adding semolina
    flour.  There is a recipe for French bread from King Arthur's
    Bakers and it mentions that this will give it the authentic 
    texture of French bread. I think it also mentions a pastry flour.  
    I'll be glad to take a look and add the recipe. I just ordered the
    semolina flour and thought I'd give it a try. I also ordered the
    double pans that are something like u-u.  They are suppose to
    allow an even heat on the bottom of the loaf as well as the
    top of the loaf.
    
    Flo
    

    
    Reply to .10
    
    By 'texture' I am referring primarily to the size of the air bubbles
    that make up the bulk of the bread.  Batter breads and English muffins
    have a very coarse texture.  The other extreme is Wonder bread which
    has such a fine texture that it's practically moosh.  Your goal is
    something in between.
    
    Re-reading your original note, it sounds like you want a fine textured
    bread (multiple risings) but with some largish air bubbles (long final
    rising).  
    
    Also, I checked in the supermarket last night on the protein content of
    different types of flour.  If protein=gluten, then King Arthur does
    indeed rank higher than all-purpose flour.  Here's the scoop:
    
    	All pupose (Pillsbury,Gold Medal):	11 g protein per cup
    	King Arthur (regular):			13 g 
    	Pillsbury Bread Flour			14 g
        King Arthur Whole Wheat			16 g
    
    
    
    
    

	Rep .0	

	I would try doubling the yeast you in your recipe. The other important
	thing is the moisture which gives you the nice crust. I entered this
	suggestion in another note about french bread and it was pooh-poohed.
	But by doubling the yeast in my standard dough and spraying the oven
	I get what you decsribed in .0 everytime.


	-mike

Jack,

	If you're getting a blob that won't shape and is sticky, try adding 
more flour. If it is not sticky but not rising, it may be that there is too
much flour and not enough yeast. My brother does this for a living (I moonlight)
and he uses barley malt (available at any health food store) instead of sugar
or any other sweeteners. He says it gives a nice flavor and good color to
the bread....

	He uses a three rise dough. Mix and let rise, punch, divide and let 
rise, mold and let rise. Bake at 400 +/-. Make sure to have the steam built
up in the oven with water. 


						Robert Sarao

    A tip that comes from the King Arthur cookbook is to place a cookie
    sheet (one you don't care much about, I use an old junker) in the oven
    while it's pre-heating. (Put it on the lower shelf.) Then when you put
    the bread in to bake, dump two or three cups of ice cubes onto the
    cookie sheet.
    
    As the bread bakes, the ice will melt and produce the steam you want
    for a really nice crispy crust.
    
    	/Harry

    Try the book THe Italian Baker by Carol Field. It has many recipes
    and lots of information on how to bake Italian bread. I got it
    for Christmas, and I'm slowly working my way through. Which leads
    me to another question...
    
    I followed a recipe from this book that calls for letting the loaves
    rise in a "banneton," which is a sort of ceramic bread mold. For 
    those who don't have bannetons (which I don't), the recipe said to
    put the dough in baskets lined with floured kitchen towels to rise.
    When the bread has risen, you turn the basket over onto the baking
    sheet and remove the basket and towel (or the banneton, if you're
    using one). 
    
    I did this, and when I turned the risen loaves carefully onto the baking
    sheet, they went "splat," and collapsed. The dough is very soft, which
    is what the recipes called for. I tried again by putting the dough on
    the sheet with the basket on top, letting it rise up into the basket. 
    That worked much better, but one of the loaves was still kind of flat. 
    
    Does anyone has experience with baking bread like this? Despite its
    appearance, the bread was wonderful! It had a nice crust and a good,
    hearty flavor and texture. Any hints on how to handle those loaves
    would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
                         
    Kate
     

re: .16, Brian Harris

> If protein=gluten

I guess that poses a good question, really. I was under the impression that
gluten was the "sticky" component of the flour. In fact, my dictionary does
define it as the "tough, viscid nitrogenous substance that remains behind
when the flour of wheat or other grain is washed with water to remove the
starch". However, seemingly at odds with that, one book on bread making I
referred to recently specified not to overknead the dough in order to
avoid _producing_ too much gluten. Was it perhaps "freeing" the gluten
that was meant? (The dictionary reference to a "nitrogenous substance"
would certainly indicate protein, I'd think.)

-Jack

    
    [from 'Kitchen Science' by Howard Hillman]
    
    Kneading is "...important to develop a firm gluten that will provide a
    supporting framework for the expanding dough.  Gluten is a mixture of
    proteins in the flour that, when kneaded, becomes a cohesive network of
    strands.  As the carbon dioxide gas develops [from the yeast], it
    becomes trapped inside the gluten structure.  As more gas develops,
    pressure builds up and stretches the elastic gluten strands, increasing
    the volume of the dough."
    

    Four does make a difference. I'm a transplant from New York also.
    The Ciro's reastaurant near me does import their bread flour from
    Italy, at least thats what they told us.
    
    I'd give anything to be able to buy New York style bread here!
    
    Hannah

    Jack, could I make a suggestion?  Perhaps if you wrote the bakering or
    called, whatever, and tell them what you are trying to accomplish. 
    They may not give you the recipe but they may be able to answer
    specific questions, like, do you use commercial flour, or King Arthur,
    a specific bread oven or bread bricks?  
    
    Perhaps they may be flattered if they know you are just an individual
    who LOVES their bread and wants some "home cooking" italian style?
    
    Becca

This topic on bread from the bakery in NY has caught my attention since I was 
just complaining to my friend about not being able to reproduce a pizza crust 
that is made back in my home in northeast, Pennsylvania.  

(I'm new to this conference but I have seen most of the entries for pizza 
dough.)  I'm interested in this note because the pizza dough I have 
been trying to reproduce sounds alot like the texture of the bread you have 
been trying to make.  I've had friends give me recipes for "thick" pizza crust
that is nowhere near the same thing.  Their "thick" means thick and heavy.

It all started with one pizza place back in Penna. called the Victory Pig,
(yes, it is a slightly strange name).  They make a VERY thick but VERY light
and bubbly pizza that is baked on a long square pan that has peanut oil in it.
The peanut oil adds a unique flavor and slight oily finish to the bottom of 
the crust.  Over the years other shops opened in the area (with people who 
worked at the original place) and have been reproducing the pizza. The topping
recipe has been "leaked" over the years and it turns out to be very simply 
tomatoes(very little), medium white cheddar and sweet onion, that's it!

The dough, however, seems to be a closely kept secret.  Of course anyone
who works there will say "it's regular bread dough", yea, my Granny! 

My mother and I, over the years, have been tring to reproduce the crust.
When she found that a young man, who was installing some siding on their
house, used to work at the shop, she asked about the dough.  At first she got
the standard answer, "it's regular bread dough", then the young man said
he would give her the recipe for $500!  So, we have to laugh every time we 
think of that incident.

I've tried kneading the dough very well, using bread flour, letting it rise
longer, adding extra yeast adding extra gluten and even omitting the yeast 
for baking powder and soda with no success.

This past weekend was yet another try that failed.

If you can figure out the trick to produce a light and lacy bread loaf, 
maybe it would help my pizza crust.  Please, post the secret here, I'm
anxious to find out!

Thanks,
Elaine

The first thing we do when we visit Pa. is get some of that pizza!
    

                                Tuscan Bread

This is a two step process, first you must mix the Mother (sponge) and let
proof for 2 to 3 days.  Then the actual dough is created.

   INGREDIENTS:    1 package    yeast
                   1 cup        water
                   1 cup        flour

    DIRECTIONS:  Mix the yeast with warm water (100 - 105) and let proof
                 for 5 minutes

                 Mix the flour with your hand for about 5 minutes.

                 Cover with plastic wrap and let sit for 2 - 3 days.

   INGREDIENTS: 1 1/2  teasp.   yeast
                  1/4  cup      warm water
                1      cup      warm water
                4 - 5  cups     flour
                1      dab      olive oil
                                mother sponge

    DIRECTIONS:  Combine the yeast with warm water (100 - 105) and 
                 let proof for 5 minutes

                 Add the mother and mix with your hand until dissolved

                 Add 3 1/2 cups of flour, mix, add additional flour as needed

                 Knead for 5 to 10 minutes on floured surface

                 Put a little olive oil in a bowl, put the dough in bowl and
                 coat the dough with the olive oil.

                 Cover and let rise 2 hours in a warm area

                 Preheat the oven to 450 degrees.

                 Knead the dough on a floured work surface for 5 - 10
                 minutes, then shape into a round

                 Put cornmeal on wood board, put the dough on the board
                 and cover with a towel to rise again, approx. 1 hour

                 Put cornmeal on cooking stone, put dough on the stone
                 in the oven and cook for 30 - 35 minutes.

                         (Maryann Esposito TV Cooking Show)
    

Correction to Note 3425.26 explaining the 1 1/4 cup of water used in the
second process, I found the original recipe in Mary Ann Esposito's book
"Ciao Italia, Traditional Italian Recipes from Family Kitchens".  Also
thought I would expand on some of her narrative.

"One of the many breads that has its roots in historical events is Tuscan
bread.  Its main characteristic is that is has always been made without
salt because of a tax on salt imposed by the popes in the thirteenth and
fourteenth centuries.  To show their displeasure, the townspeople went
without salt, and the bakers refused to put it in their bread.  To this
day, this saltless bread is eaten daily in Tuscany and is a reminder of
the steadfastness of a proud people.  Some people say that the saltless
bread is the perfect foil for the many kinds of flavorful foods traditionally
made with it.  Cooked cannellini beans, flavored with dark green Tuscan
olive oil, are wonderful on this bread.  The bread is equally good in soup
or as the base for fettunta, Tuscan bread grilled and rubbed with garlic, 
then drizzled with dense extra-virgin olive oil.  Making Tuscan bread
requires a starter dough, known as a sponge, which needs at least a day to 
develop it sour tang.

                                Tuscan Bread

This is a two step process, first you must mix the Mother (sponge) and let
proof for 2 to 3 days.  Then the actual dough is created.

   INGREDIENTS:    1     package    yeast
                     1/2 cup        water
                   1     cup        flour

    DIRECTIONS:  Mix the yeast with warm water (100 - 105) and let proof
                 for 5 to 10 minutes, until foamy.

                 Mix the flour with your hand for about 5 minutes.

                 Cover with plastic wrap and let sit for 1 - 3 days.

   INGREDIENTS: 1 1/2  teasp.   yeast (1/2 package)
                  1/4  cup      warm water
                1      cup      warm water
                4 - 5  cups     flour
                1      dab      olive oil
                                mother sponge

    DIRECTIONS:  Combine the yeast with the 1/4 cup of warm water (100 - 105) 
                 and let proof for 5 - 10  minutes, until foamy.

                 Add the remaining cup of water.
                 Add the mother and mix with your hand until dissolved.

                 Add 3 1/2 cups of flour, mix, add additional flour as needed
                 to make a soft ball.

                 Knead for 5 to 10 minutes on floured surface.

                 Put a little olive oil in a bowl, put the dough in bowl and
                 coat the dough with the olive oil.

                 Cover and let rise 3 - 4  hours in a warm area.

                 Turn the dough on a floured surface and gently form it
                 into a single rectangular or round loaf.  Place the loaf
                 on a baker's peel that has been dusted with cornmeal (if
                 using a stone), or place on a greased baking sheet. Let
                 rise about 35 minutes, or until doubled in size.  

                 Preheat the oven to 400 degrees.  If using a baking stone,
                 set it on the bottom rack of the oven to preheat for 30
                 minutes.

                 If using a baking stone, sprinkle the preheated stone with
                 cornmeal and carefully slide the bread onto the stone and 
                 bake for 30 - 35 minutes or until the bread is evenly
                 browned and the bottom crust is hard.  If baking on a 
                 baking sheet, bake for 35 - 40 minutes, or until the bread
                 is nicely browned and hollow sounding when tapped on the 
                 bottom.

                         (Maryann Esposito's, Ciao Italia)