Conference turris::cooks

    
     After living in France for three years I finally learned the secret
    to making bagettes. Make your favorite white bread dough and double
    the yeast you add. That's right the only difference is doubling
    the yeast. If you want a really crispy crust lightly spray the loaf
    with water just before you bake it. Also don't forget to make three
    diagonal cuts about a 1/4" deep down the loaf just after you form
    it and let it sit for it's second rise. Bon chance,
    
    
       -mike
    

    I've never tried doubling the yeast, but I have found that spraying
    the bread with water ( I use a plant mister ) makes the crust very
    cripsy.  I usually start spraying after it has baked about 2/3 the
    required time.  I spray it about 3-4 times.  I'll have to try the
    double-yeast routine.  It sounds like it would make it more chewy,
    which is exactly what you would want for true French bread...chewy
    center, cripsy crust.
    Good luck.
    Sarah
    

I don't have a favorite white bread recipe. Got one I can use? 

The only white bread recipe I've used is Challah bread, which has alot of eggs
in it. Isn't French bread a real simple combination of yeast, flour, water, and
oil, no eggs? I also remember reading something about putting a pan of water in
the oven while you bake the bread. Have you ever tried that?

Patti

    I don't agree with Mike Wolinski (reply 947.1), despite his advantage
    in French residency.  There are three separate issues here: recipe,
    proofing approach, and the baking technique.  The first two affect the
    flavor, and it may be that Mike's "favorite white bread dough" with
    double the yeast just happened to yield a bread to his satisfaction.
    You might not be so lucky. 

    Patti, if it is the entirety of the French bread you want to duplicate,
    buy (or borrow from the library) a copy of 

	Child, Julia & Beck, S		$17 ppr	ISBN 0-394-72177-2  1970 
	Mastering the Art of French Cooking, volume two

    and follow the twenty or thirty pages of detailed instructions therein. 

    If it is really the crust you want to duplicate, that is a lot easier.
    Here are three ways to get a good crust: 

Fast and easy:

    Almost as mentioned in other replies, spray the surface of the loaf
    with water.  Start the oven off at 450 and spray every few minutes for
    about four sprayings.  Turn the temperature down to 350 and finish the
    baking. 

Even easier but with special equipment:

    Bake the loaf in a tightly covered clay chamber.  Brush the loaf with
    ample water just before putting it in the oven.  I have never tried
    this. 

Involved but worth it if you don't own a chamber:

    Install quarry tiles on the shelf before preheating.  Put the bread on
    a peel and slash as noted elsewhere.  Put an empty pie plate on the
    bottom shelf.  Heat a large piece of iron to red hot.  Boil some water.
    Ready? 

    Pour about a half cup of boiling water into the pie plate. 

    Slide the bread into the 450 oven.  Immediately move that red hot iron
    into the water --- the steam will WOOOOOSSHHE.  Close the door quickly
    and do not open the door for the next fifteen minutes. 

    After fifteen or twenty minutes drop the temperature to 350. 

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    It takes me about twelve hours to make French bread.  Do you want the
    recipe and abbreviated instructions? 

        Baguette. (makes 2).
                        
1/2 Tblsp yeast 
1 cup lukewarm water
1 1/2 tsp salt
3 cup flour

Dissolve yeast in water. Add to flour/salt mix.
Knead a couple of minutes. Let rise 1/2 hour.
Knead again and shape to two long breads. Cut
with a knife or a pair of scissors about 2 inches
apart, so it's easy to break when baked.
Let rise again 45 - 55 min. Brush (or however you want
to do it) with water and bake at 450 for about 15
min. in the center of the oven. 
Brush again with water after 10 min. baking.

This bread does not contain any oil and should be
eaten soon after baking. 

    
     I use the same ingredients as in .5 but I use two packets of
    yeast. I have never measured what one package of yeast contains
    so the 1/2 tbl spoon maybe about the same. I have also used 
    one cup of whole flour to two cups of all purpose flour which
    gives the bread alittle body. Plain white baguettes get old 
    after awhile.
    
     rep .4
    
     I have tried doubling the yeast in the basic white bread recipes
    in Beard on Bread and Mastering the Art of French cooking and got
    very close approximation to the baguettes I bought in France both
    in texture and taste. Which leads me to believe the extra yeast
    is the cause. I agree the water is what gives you the crispy crust
    and I cook mine directly on a marble in my oven which I also agree
    helps. 
    
                          
     -mike

RE: < Note 947.4 by SMEGIT::RYDER>

>  Do you want the recipe and abbreviated instructions? 

Al, 

Thanks for all the info. This is *much* more involved than I thought, but I 
still want to try it. I used to bake bread all the time, I am just starting 
again, but I do mostly whole wheat loaves. The dinner is for my parents' 32nd
anniversary. I'd like to dazzle them with my domestic talents - for a change. I
figure if the bread is good, they won't notice that my apartment is messy.
Please post the recipe and instructions. I'd like to be able to experiment this
weekend. 

Patti

P.S. Are Julia's books as amusing as her shows?

    I LOVE to cook, but some things are not easily replicated: real
    French bread -- the true baguette -- and French puff pastry are
    two examples. 
    
    As a result, I don't make my own: hate to offer this easy way out,
    but both Idylwilde Farm on Central Street and Palate's Delite on Rte 2A
    in Acton sell the real McCoy. Beautiful baguettes, no labor, good
    eating. And it's not the Vie de France stuff which is ok in a pinch.
    
    

    re  947.8   Pearson is absolutely correct; it *is* easier to buy
                French bread.  Nonetheless, I will sometimes make it.
    
    re  947.7	I'll post a recipe for Patti in my next reply.
    
    re  947.6 --- the gap about yeast between Mike and myself
    
    It may be that when the rising temperature is low enough and the
    duration long enough, that the starting quantity of yeast is not
    that important.  I don't have enough experience to really know.
    There really *is* a difference in quantity here; a "package" is
    equivalent to a tablespoon of dry yeast, so Mike uses four times
    as much yeast as Bergsonne --- or the recipes in my next reply.
    
    I'll have to try Mike's variation.

    Patti, if you are concerned about the impression you make, and if these
    guests are not expecting French bread, you might consider making
    something other than French bread.  Someone used to the typical US
    bread might even be disappointed in a perfect French bread. 
    
    In the text that follows I quote some recipes for pain ordinaire in
    answer to Patti's request plus a recipe for a very different bread as
    an alternative. 

    One key to flavor in a yeast bread is the duration (not volume) of the
    rising.  A typical standard is two periods, one of two hours then
    another of about one hour.  An excellent flavor can be attained with
    three periods of 2, 1 1/2, and 1 hours each.  Julia Child's bread takes
    longer than this and might present a problem unless you like to start
    baking at midnight, although an experienced bread maker can extend the
    time even longer and fit it into a personal schedule.  This proofing
    duration can be a major factor in recipe selection. 

    
    
    Julia Child's pain ordinaire
    ----------------------------

    She uses a minimum of yeast and multiple cool risings to have a long
    ripening and attain "something splendidly satisfying".  (Yup, typical
    Julia.) 

    yeast           1       pkg
    water           1/3     cup     under 100 degrees

    flour           3 1/2   cup     all purpose, not bread
    salt            2 1/4   tsp
    water           1 1/4   cup     tepid (70 - 74)

    dough will be soft and sticky at first; horrible to knead
    
    don't use a food processor (because of heating) and don't overknead

    ungreased, tightly covered bowl;  never to exceed 70 degrees!

    rise until it has expanded 3 1/2 times !

    punched down gently but thoroughly

    rise until expanded 3 times !      still below 70 degrees

    shaped

    final rise in a dry place with a cloth cover; upside down if possible
    
    rise until a little less than 3 times starting volume
    
    slash (to make it easier for the bread to rise during baking)

    bake about 25 minutes @ 450 for ba^tards

    see reply 947.4 about the crust

        I bake directly on a hot clay slab and use the pie plate, etc.

    
    
    Judith and Evan Jones           The Book of Breads, pg 60
    ---------------------

    According to the authors this recipe is an adaptation of Julia'.

    yeast           1       pkg
    water           2 3/4   cup
    salt            4       tsp
    graham flour      1/3   cup     additive for flavor and texture
    flour           5 1/2   cup     approximately

    ungreased bowl tightly covered

    3x @ 68 (at least 3 hours)

    2x @ room temperature

    shape

    2x

    slash

    20 - 25 @ 450

    
    
    Bernard Clayton                 New Complete Book of Breads, pg 253
    ---------------

    Clayton's other book, The Breads of France, gives him credibility.

    yeast           2       pkg
    water           2 1/2   cups
    salt            2       tsp
    flour           6       cups    (approx) bread flour
    
    greased bowl, tightly covered

    3x @ room temperature (about 2 hrs)

    3x (about 1 1/2 hrs)

    shape

    2+ x (about 1 hour)

    slash

    25 - 30 @ 450

    
    
    However, my suggested bread for Patti is not French but an ordinary,
    milk-based, white bread with a zing of fresh lemon.  Except for the
    lemon, the basic bread that follows is from Jones.  If she wants an
    outstanding crust, she can bake it on a hot slab with steam and lightly
    butter the crust when it comes out of the oven. 

    Unlike French bread, this bread will stay fresh for days; it could be
    baked the day before her dinner. 

    yeast           1       pkg
    water           1/4     cup     warm
    
    milk            2 1/2   cup     heated then cooled to just warm
    butter          4       Tbs     melted in the milk
    honey           4       Tbs     likewise
    salt            2       tsp     also
    
    lemon peel        1/2           chop the outer layer of fresh peel
    flour         ~ 7       cups    white bread flour
    
    greased bowl, tightly covered

    2x @ room temperature

    shape into 2 loaf pans (or free form if the dough is stiff)

    1.8x

    slash

    Because of the honey, this crust will brown at lower temperatures.
    40 @ 350

    If you bake it in a pan instead of free-form, take it out of the pans
    about 10 minutes before it is done and finish it without a pan to get 
    a better crust. 

The bread that Al suggested come out wonderful. My family was quite impressed
and gobbled both loaves with dinner. 

I did have one small problem. I was using a baking stone for the first time.
The directions for the stone said to preheat it then put the bread on it. I
made the loaves freeform and when I tried to put the loaves on the stone they
collasped. Because I was running out of time, I decided to forget about
preheating the stone and let the bread rise again on the stone. So what I want
to know is how do you get a risen and fragile loaf of freeform bread onto the
preheated stone? I know that bakeries and pizzas places use a paddle thing
called a peel (sp?). Can you buy small ones? Where? I don't have room in my
kitchen for an oar. Do you form the loaves and rise them on the peel? 

Dinner was stuffed mushrooms (modified from the Good Housekeeping Illustrated
Cookbook), coq au vin (from Frugal Gourmet Cooks With Wine), pan-fried broccoli
(from (Frugal also), potatoes anna (also from Good Housekeeping), and the
bread. I served Mondavi Pinot Noir with dinner. Everyone really liked the hint
of lemon in the bread. The sauce for the chicken was _made_ for being soaked up
with fresh bread. Pan-fried broccoli is small pieces of broccoli sauted in wine
and broth with almonds. It is dressed with a little lemon and oil. Potatoes
Anna are my favorite potatoes: sliced thin, drizzled with butter, and baked til
they are crispy. We always fight over the crispies. I'll post these recipes
soon. 

Thanks for all your help. I still plan on making French bread. I'll probably be
back with questions when I do.

Patti

>>  How do you get a risen and fragile loaf of freeform bread onto the
>>  preheated stone? 

Very carefully and/or skillfully        and with a peel or a substitute.

I let my free-form loaves do their final rise on CORNMEAL sprinkled on 
a peel that I bought several weeks ago.  [I also build pizza directly 
on the same set-up and transfer the pizza to the hot stone for baking.]  
Although I am improving, I am not yet skilled, and I sometimes blow it, 
jarring the bread or partially missing the stone.

You don't need a wooden peel; use instead a cookie sheet that has no lip 
or a thin piece of stiff cardboard.  The trick is to sprinkle enough 
corn meal on the peel or its substitute to keep the dough from sticking 
while proofing and to serve as a "lubricant" when you do the transfer.

I know of two ways to do the transfer: either to jab the peel into the 
oven and then jerk it back out while the bread is still moving forward, 
or to position it where you want it, tilt it forward, and then quiver 
the bread off the front edge onto the stone.  I usually quiver, so I may 
never learn how to do it right.  The thought of a pizza lunch dripping 
down the back of a hot oven is a thought to instill cowardice.

My pizze are ultra-thin, soft-dough creations that before baking have 
all the structural strength of a wet tissue, have almost no lip, and 
have a soupy sauce threatening to spill onto the stone.  Nonetheless, 
the quivering technique has always worked, and the results are great!

The quivering technique has also worked with French and Portuguese
breads, both very soft and delicate.  I am using the very firm sour
dough rye loaves to practice the toss-and-jerk.

RE: .10

    
    
>    However, my suggested bread for Patti is not French but an ordinary,
>    milk-based, white bread with a zing of fresh lemon.  Except for the
>    lemon, the basic bread that follows is from Jones.  If she wants an
>    outstanding crust, she can bake it on a hot slab with steam and lightly
>    butter the crust when it comes out of the oven. 


Al, 

Your recipe has quickly become my favorite bread recipe. It is 
absolutely delicious and very easy. An added benefit is that it takes
well to my need to experiment with flours. I think it deserves a note
of it's own. Since it's at the end of a long note, it is easy to miss.
With your permission, I'd like to post the recipe in a separate reply
or note. 

Patti