Conference turris::cooks

    I have a set of CUTCO knives that's now 20 years old.  All I've
    ever had to to to keep them sharp is to run them through the sharpening
    wheel (it came with the set) every once in a while.  They still
    look and cut great.  I also have the steak knives and they're the
    best I've ever used.  I don't think they're available in stores,
    I've known some college students who sold them during the summer.
    They are expensive, but to me they were worth every penny.  
    

    How about Henckels, Wust-Of-Trident, Sabitier?

>    How about Henckels, Wust-Of-Trident, Sabitier?

Henckles and Sabatier are both fine.  I've never heard of the the other 
brand.  Chicago Cutlery is another good brand.

There are basically two choices in knives; stanless steel and carbon 
steel.  The carbon steel takes a finer edge and is easier to sharpen, 
but it loses the edge faster, and it takes more care to prevent rust. 
The stainless is more difficult to sharpen well, and it doesn't take 
that great of an edge, but it holds the edge longer and it's easier to 
take care of (It'll still rust, but it takes more effort.)

What kind of knives are you looking for? One of the best general purpose
knives, in my opinion, is the Joyce Chen Chinese cook's knife.  It looks
sort of like a cleaver, but it's rounded on the bottom.  It's incredibly
sharp and does most of the tasks you'd generally use the more familiar
french cook's knife for. Have a look at one when you go out shopping.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    I use Chicago Cutlery.  They have been exceptional knives. 
    
    Steve

    I too bought a set of Cutco knives almost 20 years ago.  I still
    use them some, but they are no longer my mainstay in the kitchen.
    Cutco is stainless steel.  They stay sharp for a very long time,
    but when they need a professional sharpening it's hard to find someone
    to do it.  In fact, I ended sending mine back to Cutco for sharpening
    because no one would touch them locally.  One advantage to these
    is that they can be thrown into the dishwasher.
    
    The knives that I use every day, and *love*, are Henckels Four-Star.
    They are very expensive, and I have collected my set over a period
    of years.  You probably wouldn't want to just go out and buy a whole
    set at one time.  I have the 3 and 4-inch paring knives, the 5-1/2
    inch boning knife, the chef's knife, and the bread knife.  I also
    have a sharpening steel, which I use nearly every time I use one
    of the knives.  I do not put my Henckels in the dishwasher.
    
    I like to keep my knives sharp as razor blades, and the Henckels
    makes this easy.  They need professional sharpening every couple
    of years, but I can just take them to one of the knife places in
    a mall and get them sharpened very cheaply while I shop.  If you're
    willing to pay the price, I highly recommend them.  They're an
    investment that will last you a lifetime.
    
    							Pat

The choices as far as construction is concerned:

Blade
	carbon steel: turns bluish, rusts easily, allows sharpest edge,
		looses it easily (you learn how to use a steel quickly)

	stainless steel: does not rust, difficult to sharpen, does not 
		develop the best edge

	carbon-stainless steel: most expensive "stainless" knives use this
		alloy nowadays, hard to rust, easy to clean, moderately,
		good at developing and holding an edge

Edge
	tapered: easiest to sharpen with a steel, holds its sharpness

	hollow ground: difficult/impossible to sharpen without a machine
		(although hand held manual devices exist), sharpest possible
		edge, does not hold it long (many cheaper pure stainless 
		knives are hollow ground to be sharper when new).  A hollow 
		ground blade is a big advantage for some jobs, like cutting 
		ham, or smoked salmon, or other dense meat (some brands offer
		hollow ground slicers that are looong and flexible).

	serrated: great for sawing.  The only use for a serrated knife is 
		slicing bread, which should be sawed to avoid compressing it.
		Many very cheap knives use serrated edges and show you how 
		wonderful they are for nails, coke cans, well done steaks,
		etc.  

Handle
	Wood: can look nice, denser woods last longer without cracking and
		slivering, requires hand washing for maximum life

	Plastic: looks nice on more expensive knives, often "custom grip" 
		for average sized hands can be placed in dish washer

Good brands:
	Sabatier, Wusthoff-Trident, others mentioned here.  A good selection
	at Lechmere's, and Jordan Marsh.  All good knives are expensive, but
	last FOREVER if treated properly.  If the brands I mentioned EVER 
	develop a flaw, ANY authorized dealer will replace it, free.  

	Europeans (primarily Germany, France and Switzerland) have been making 
	knives for a long time, and have developed very good recipes for their 
	steel.  American manufacturers have recently begun to take cutlery 
	seriously, too, but don't expect the good American knives to be any 
	cheaper than their European counterparts.

Which to buy depends largely on how you use them.  I prefer french chef's 
knives to the oriental styles.  I generally recommend against buying "sets" 
unless you really plan to use them all.  Try hefting each knife before you buy 
it.  If you decide to buy a steel, watch out.  You can really damage a knife 
by misusing a steel (knife to steel angle should be about 20 degrees, most 
people blunt their knives by using a 45 degree angle).

My recommendation for starters:
	4-6" paring knife
	8-10" chef's knife
	10" bread knife (if you use whole loaf breads often)
	5-7" boning or fileting knife (if you bone your own meats)	
Pick the sizes that you feel comfortable with.  Heft the knife in the store.  
If it feels pooly balanced, or too big, skip it.  If they won't let you heft 
it, go someplace else

						     Have fun!
							- JP

    RE: -1
    
     JP (nice article) raises a good point - you're likely to be
    disappointed if you buy a complete set from any company, no matter
    how good they are.
    
     Determine which knives you are most likely to use (doesn't make
    sense to buy a boning knife if you don't do that activity; on the
    other hand, a chef's 12" is probably essential). Then, try that
    style from as many different companies as you can - check for
    construction, feel, weight, etc. You'll find that you'll select
    the knives that feel good to you, and they won't all be from one
    company.
    
     Whichever you choose, be good about caring for your knives; keep
    them sharp and in good repair. Most restaurants use a knife service
    wherein they rent the knives used from a company that maintains
    them on a weekly/biweekly basis. This includes sharpening, repairs,
    and balance. Most of these knives are special application; all are
    of the stainless steel/carbon composition. All this care makes these
    knives great tools; they're easier to work with, and a sharp knife
    goes where you want it to. Dull knives probably account for more
    accidents than improper use.
    
     The preceding replies contain all the other good advice I would
    give you. Good luck with your shopping, and don't buy any knife
    that you're not 100% happy with - and it's always worth the investment
    to buy the more expensive knife, rather than settle for one you're
    not wild about, simply because it's cheaper.
    
    
                             Ken
    

    About 24 years ago I bought a knife from the local butcher. It cost
    about $3 or $4. I still have the knife and it still holds and edge.
    It is not as pretty as more expensive ones, but it is functional.
    A few years ago (3 or 4) I was looking for a boning knife and chefs
    knife. Again I tried the local butcher and got the knifes for $5
    each. I take care of the knifes and am very happy with all of them.
    
    Buy only what you need.
    
    Take care of what you buy.
    
    Try the cheap way. It may work for you.

   I too agree with JP and the others.  Of the dozen or so 'good' knives I have
there are 4 that get constant use, a couple I use occaisionally and the rest
just take up space.  I constantly use a Chicago Cutlery 12" Chef's knife, a
Chicago Cutlery 5" paring knife (like their 'steak' knife, but with the curved 
handle), a Henkels 3" paring knife with triangular blade, and a carving knife
my father-in-law made a few years ago.  I use a Chicago Cutlery 7" boning knife
on occaision as I do a 12" serrated for bread.  As was mentioned time and again
keep them sharp and don't abuse them.

  I will take issue :-):-) with JP about the usefulness of serrated blades. 
Serrated blades have TWO major user types. Anyone so callous as to saw the
sharp edge of a good blade against a plate, a pot, or other HARD surface and
anyone who knowingly throws the good knives in a drawer with other utensils
deserves only to be allowed serrated knives.  In our house the 'steak knives'
(used to hack a steak into bite-size pieces on your plate) are the $3.79 for
six type. This allows those who insist on sawing to do so without dear ol' Dad
blowing a gasket.  The good knives are attached to a magnetic bar near the
cutting board and are used ONLY on the cutting board. 

   The only thing I haven't worked out is how to gracefully keep those less
enlightened than myself (relatives) from casually using the knives from the 
magnetic bar the same way they do their own GINZU 's.  SCREAMING seems so 
ungracious....

					Al

    What is the advantage of using a boning knife over say a 4 inch
    paring knife?
    
    --wch--

RE: .9
  > The only thing I haven't worked out is how to gracefully keep those less
  > enlightened than myself (relatives) from casually using the knives from
  > the magnetic bar the same way they do their own GINZU 's.  SCREAMING 
  > seems so ungracious....
    
    I keep my good knives in a knife block on the counter, along with the
    sharpening steel.  In a kitchen drawer, I keep a goodly supply of the
    $1.98 grocery store variety.  These I use for hacking open cardboard
    boxes, opening stubborn cans, etc.  If someone is working in my kitchen
    and starts to use a good knife for anything other than cutting food on
    a cutting board, I just politely but immediately say, "Oh, let me get
    you another knife for that -- I don't use THOSE knives for anything but
    food."  Other than making some people think I'm somewhat eccentric,
    this approach hasn't presented any problems so far.
    
    							Pat 

    re.10
    A boning knife has a long flexible blade that has a cutting edge
    the whole length of the blade. When boning something like a fresh
    pork sholder, I don't always want to butterfly it, and with a boning
    knife I am able to get the bone out of the middle and just stuff
    the hole, a paring knife blade is too short and rigid. My knife
    also has a rounded edge which is sharpened also.
    
    By the way my knives are Wusthoff-Trident and I think it's one of
    the best investments in my kitchen.  I bought them at a rate of
    one a year until I had what I wanted( they aren't cheap) , my boning
    knife was my first investment.

Re:.9  Keeping the unenlightened away from your good knives.

I keep my good knives out of sight in the "cook's drawer" next to the 
stove.  The places people tend to look for knives are in the silverware 
drawer or the everyone-seems-to-have-one tool drawer across the kitchen. 
They find junk knives in those places and are satisfied.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Have you ever heard of CUTCO?  They are really great, they beat
    Henkels (spelling).  I don't know where you live, but they sell
    them through sales people in Nashua, I know somebody who sells them
    around here.
    
    The handles on these knives are super, they are made from the same
    material as bowling balls, and football helmets.  The person who
    designed the handle, studied over 500 different hands to come up
    with a design to fit into any hand.
    
    They are super!
    

Fancy, smancy...I'll stick with my Chicago Cutlery.  These knives hold a good
edge for an incredible period of time, and they feel "right" in my hand.
Plain wood handles that require respect - no dishwasher, no sitting in the
dishpan, but I love 'em.
    

>    The handles on these knives are super, they are made from the same
>    material as bowling balls, and football helmets.  

You mean plastic?  Yeah, great material for making moulded items, 
but I don't think I'd make a big deal out of it. (I'm reminded of a 
firend who was pulling some sales-type's chain by asking "Is that REAL 
Formica, or just veneer?")
						>>>==>PStJTT

I have 2 kinds and like both. I have a 3" & 4" paring, and 8" Carver from 
the Wusthooff-Trident. I bought these a couple of years ago at Lechmere's. 
I loved them and still do. I also received a set of 4 knives from Chicago 
Cutlery for a wedding present. I also like those knives. 

Where can I get a magnetic strip that someone was referring to earlier? 
I have the Chicago Cutlery knives in the block they came in but not the 
others. 

Rachelle 

    will food get stuck in the knives with the riveted handles?

>    will food get stuck in the knives with the riveted handles?

Never has with my Chicago cutlery

re .14

>	...
>    designed the handle, studied over 500 different hands to come up
>    with a design to fit into any hand.

Sorry, but I'm a very large person, and from experience, one size does NOT 
fit all.

						     
							- JP

    
    I like my Chicago Cutlery - individually purchased so you can pick
    and choose what you want.  They have two handle styles - straight
    and curved to suit your personal preference.  They aren't cheap but 
    they aren't terribly expensive either.  I keep them in wooden knife 
    blocks (yes I have more than one!) which is kept away from the
    'general use drawer'.   The ones I use most are the paring knife, 
    the boning knife and the 12" carver.  I'd give up my cuisinart before 
    I'd give up my knives.
    
    Conni

    re .17
    
    >Where can I get a magnetic strip that someone was referring to
    >earlier? 
    
    	I've seen the strips in a couple of the mall cooking stores
    like "The Joy of Cooking". I'll assume that just about any cook's
    supply store should carry them or at least be able to point you
    in the right direction!
    
    -jjs

re .17
    
    >Where can I get a magnetic strip that someone was referring to
    >earlier? 
    
I think I saw them in Williams-Sonama in Fanueil (sp?) Hall.

My dad made me what I think is much better than the magnetic strip
thingy. He took  two strips of 12" x 3" x 1/2" pine. Out of one strip
he cut slots for each of my knives, then screwed/glued the strips to
form a 12" x 3" x 1" strip. He screwed a piece of plexiglass to it to
protect the blades/fingers. I mounted it on the wall with angle
brackets. 

The knives (Wusthofs that I bought at Williams-Sonama) slide into the
slots. Since my kitchen is microscopic, it is very possible that I
would brush up against the knive rack. The plexiglass prevents me from
chopping off a shoulder or ear. 

If anyone's interested, I can draw a picture and send it to you. The
whole thing took about an hour to make.

    These magnetic strips are ordinary [hardware store] items; you
    shouldn'y have to go to a speciality shop; the strips are as useful
    in the workshop as in the kitchen.  I bought mine in a hardware
    store, but I don't remember which one.  Mine is black, about one
    inch square and 18 inches long.
    
    I mounted the strip under the upper cabinets in a corner.  Only
    the handles are visible.
    
    When you find one, buy two; I wish I had.  Stainless blades are
    not strongly attracted to a magnet, so long blades such as bread
    knives are easily knocked off accidently.  Two strips, mounted in
    the same plane about four inches apart, should do nicely.

    RE: Storage
    
    My knife rack is mounted under a cabinet on a rack that slides down
    and out.  It is maybe 15 inches wide, and there is a 3 or 4 inch
    piece of wood down the center with slots in it for the blades. 
    What I like about it is that it slides back up and in, and is not
    at all obvious to others who don't know it's there - they head for
    the junk drawer!  I found it at a home improvement store with the
    storage systems.  Also, they don't get dusty or spattered.
    
    TW

    Rats. I can't remember exactly where, but there's a place near the
    Woodcraft Supply store where I took my knives to be sharpened once.
    They really hacked the knives, but they had a nice assortment of
    used knives you could buy for practically nothing. I got two Henckels
    4-star knives (one 8" chef's, one 6" utility) for maybe $5 each.
    There's no reason why you need to spend full price on expensive
    knives unless either they don't have what you want, or you're giving
    them as a gift.

   Right in there with GOOD knives, I believe there is a requirement for good
forks.  I've cursed a lousy fork as often as a poor quality knife. A number of
years ago I picked up a carbon steel 'sharp fork' with a do-hickey between the
handle and the tines which swings down when setting the fork on the counter 
keeping the tines off the surface.  It requires the same care as do the good
knives regarding water (i.e. if you leave it sitting water it will rust and
stain).  I use that fork anytime I'm carving.  I purchased the thing at a
flea market for $1 (I paid $2 a couple weeks ago for a similar one).  In looking
in catlogs and cutlery stores in the last couple years, I have not seen anything
like them currently available.  The older fork has a stag handle and the more
recent purchase has a bone handle (for whatever that's worth).

   Anyone else out there with a preference to a particular fork or brand?  As
I recall the Chicago Cutlery forks are almost as pricey as the 10" chefs knife.

				Al

    This isn't on the subject of either knives OR forks, but...
    
    Since I was talking about the Henckels knives that I've enjoyed
    so much, I thought I'd mention the other Henckels tools I've collected.
    Again, they are expensive, but if you collect them over a long period
    like I have, there's essentially no financial pain felt.
    
    I think my favorite is a vegetable peeler with a Henckels knife
    blade that can be removed and sharpened just like the knives.  I
    paid $7.00 for the thing, but I won't have to buy another one in
    my lifetime.  *And* it comes in either left-handed or right-handed
    styles -- I'm left-handed, and having a vegetable peeler that works
    correctly in my left hand is wonderful!
    
    I also got a lemon zester by Henckels.  Seems to me I paid something
    like $5.00 for it.  It's sharp enough to produce zest with negligible
    physical effort on my part.  The cheaper ones I've had required
    a good bit of pressure in order to cut.
    
    What else?  Let's see, I have bought the apple corer and nutmeg
    grater.  Both are super high-quality and work extremely well.
    
    Investing in tools like this over a long period of time minimizes the
    impact on your pocketbook, and I believe saves money in the long run
    because these tools will literally last you for the rest of your life. 
    
    							Pat

  I finally remembered the name. A few years ago, Cooks magazine tested
  kitchen knives, and they found that the Marks Exaktor (sp?) line was
  essentially identical to the best knives from Henckels, Wustoff,
  Sabatier, etc., only about half the price. Shortly after their review,
  I saw them in a couple of stores (Crate & Barrel, Bloomingdale's). The
  price had already gone up a bit, but they were still a lot less than
  the German knives. They did look fine, and I handled one for a few
  seconds, and it felt just as well-made as the Henckels knives. I
  haven't used one at home to see how they sharpen and hold an edge,
  but, if you're planning to go for brand new top-of-the-line knives,
  these are probably a good deal. I think they're made in U.S.A., for
  you patriotic folks.

  Incidentally, from what I've seen, the Cutco knives are every bit as
  good as, and as expensive as, the German knives. But the Chicago
  Cutlery knives (we have 2) have wooden handles which don't stand up to
  water as well as the German knives. Otherwise they're perfectly useful
  and a lot less expensive.

  If you want some really snazzy-looking knives, in the same class as
  Henckels and friends, a German company named WMF makes beautiful
  knives with white plastic handles. They're a real tough plastic which
  is very comfortable and scratch-resistant, so won't look ugly after
  extended use. They're so beautiful I was sorely tempted to buy some,
  even though we already have more knives than we need. Fortunately, my
  wife talked some sense into me, and we spent the money on a color TV
  instead.

    RE: .29
    
     If I'm not mistaken, those white handles (they also come in black),
    are the only types of knives approved by FDA and state health
    authorities for use in commercial food operations. The only things
    that hurt these handles is a knive blade or direct heat (i.e., open
    flame). As knives in my collection wear out, this is the type handle
    I'm replacing them with. An additional bonus is that you can toss
    'em in the dishwasher with no worries. Try doing that with a wood
    handle.
    
     Before anybody replies to let me know they've seen wood handled
    knives in commercial use - it's my understanding that they're allowed
    to be used until wearout, at which time the replacement must have
    the plastic handle.
    
    
    
                                Ken
    

	For anyone in the Marlboro, Mass area whose interested, State Lumber
on Rt 85 in Marlboro is closing out their stock of Chicago Cutlery at 40%
off list.  This afternoon the stock was decent (although the display case
was not a good reflection of what was available in the drawer).

Al

    I'm still a Henckels fan (biased at least partly by the investment
    I have in them), but a recent Consumer Reports evaluated kitchen
    knives, and Chicago Cutlery won hands down.  In fact, they made
    statements like "These knives were so far above the next best that
    the rankings are misleading."  That's not a quote 'cause I don't
    have the magazine in front of me, but I've rarely seen them rave
    about a particular product the way they did Chicago Cutlery knives.
    
    							Pat

  Yeah, I just read that article, and was pretty surprised. Not so much
  by their conclusion that the Chicago Cutlery knives were the clear
  winners, but by the criteria they used to judge the knives. My
  favorites are also the Henckels knives. I like them for the shape of
  the handle, the balance, and, of course, for the way they cut and hold
  an edge. I also have some Chicago Cutlery knives, and they do cut
  perfectly well, but I find them uncomfortable. The CR test didn't put
  too much importance on balance and comfort. Also, it's my opinion that
  the handles on the Chicago Cutlery knives don't hold up as well to
  abuse, normal use, dishwashers (not that I ever put them in a
  dishwasher), etc. CR made only very brief mention of the durability of
  the handles. 

  So I agree with them on their conclusion, based on how they measured
  the knives. And it's very likely that that's what the majority of
  buyers will be interested in. CR is very good about that. But they
  often test in a way which will disappoint a more critical or
  specialized consumer. I've found this to be consistently true in their
  testing of stereo, computers, sometimes cars, and some other things.

  Then, of course, there's always the possibility that I don't like
  reading that my expensive German knives are no better than a cheap
  domestic brand. It could mean I bought the German knives just because
  I was sucked in by a classy market image. Oh well. I still like them.
  Now if only CR would include a "yup" factor in their ratings, more of
  the things I buy would be highly rated.

    As far as Chicago Cutlery goes, I have had a nice set for the last
    8 years and I am very very happy with them.  To keep the handles
    nice I simply put some vegetable oil on my hands and the rub the
    wood of the handles until coated.  This has keep the knife handles
    in excelent condition.
    
    Steve

  Yes, knives have been discussed in notes 1140 and 1292. You could have
  found these notes with the following command at the NOTES prompt:

  	DIR/TIT=KNI

  Anyway, it's not unusual to find brand new knives dull. In fact, I'd
  say it's the rule. 

  Chicago Cutlery knives are fine, and a very good value. In my opinion,
  they have only two minor faults when compared to the much more
  expensive knives made in Solingen, Germany (by companies like
  Henckels): they're not as nicely balanced, and the handles aren't as
  durable. Of course, if your Chicago Cutlery knives only last you 10
  years of heavy use, at their very reasonable price, you can buy a
  whole new set. You can probably do this three times for what you would
  have paid for Henckels knives.

knives are routinely sold dull so shoppers won't be bleeding all over the
displays after doing something slightly silly like "testing the blade" by
running their fingers along the blade-edge....

Some really expensive brands are sold already sharpened, but I buy Chicago
cutlery myself and I've always purchased and then had them sharpened...
by the way, the handles aren't so "sturdy", but your knives don't take well
to sitting in water, anyway, so I rather like the incentive to use, wash
and dry immediately, and put away.  I LUV these knives...and my 10 year old
set still have years to go cause I keep the handles well-oiled and DRY.

    
    	RE: -1 
    
    	I agree about the Chicago Cutlery handles.  I've had my set for 
    	7 years now and they are still like new.  Chicago Cutlery also
    	sells some type of oil for the handles to keep them looking new.
    	I also wash and dry them right away after use.  
    
    	Jack  

    THE BEST KNIVES I'VE USED ARE FORSHNER AND I'VE USED ALOT OF KNIVES
    BECAUSE I WAS A FISH AND MEAT CUTTER FOR 10 YEARS. I TRIED ALL THE
    BRANDS, CHICAGO CUTLERY ARE GOOD KNIVES BUT FORSHNER HOLDS A BETTER
    EDGE PLUS WHEN YOU DO LOSE THE EDGE ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PASS IT A
    FEW TIMES OVER A STEEL, AS LONG AS YOU KNOW HOW TO USE A STEEL PROPERLY
    AND IT'S AS SHARP AS BEFORE.
    

    
    	Beating Chicago Cutlery is easy... 
    
    	How did you feel Forshner compared against Henckels Four-Star in
    	keeping an edge? 
    
    	-Erik