Conference turris::cooks

  My experience with fresh turkeys has been good. They aren't really different
 than frozen other than they taste *much* better.

   Enjoy,

   Bob

    <what am I going to expect to get?>
    it sounds like you will get a turkey! A fresh turkey is a bird that has
    not been frozen before.  The meat is better than frozen ones and the
    cooking depends on the cook, not the bird... some cooks do use marinade
    to moisten the bird, others don't, some stuff birds, others don't... it
    all depends of what you like to do with it.
    
    I've cooked all types of birds, fresh ones more than frozen, I've even
    helped to kill and "plucked" the feathers off from quite a few turkeys
    so I know what I am talking about... Hopefully, you will get a bird
    that has been cleaned and prepared in a comercial way and all you will
    have to do is cook it. (It is almost an impossible task to slaughter and
    clean a turkey if you haven't done it before!).
                               
     

    We expect a Thanksgiving guest who is on a salt-free diet.  
    
    Which turkeys have no salt added?  Which ones do?  How can you tell the
    salt content - self-basting ones?
    
    Laura

    You could always just buy sliced turkey breast or turkey cutlets and
    cook them separately for your salt-free guest.  IMHO, subjecting the other
    guests to a salt-free bird doesn't sound very, well, appetizing.
    
    JMHO

    Just get a non-basted, non-stuffed bird and make your own stuffing -
    then you can control the amount of salt in it (including NO salt - we
    haven't used salt in cooking in many years, and I know most people have
    no idea there is no added salt in food I have prepared).
    
    /Charlotte

Check your local health food store to see if they are taking orders for fresh 
birds.  In Colorado they are running about $1.09 per pound.  Definitely no
salt in them.

Otherwise, get a turkey that is NOT self-basting.  

    My family has enjoyed a number of fresh turkeys through the years.
    One thing to plan on doing is washing the cavity of the bird with hot,
    mild soapy water.  Yes, that's right - soapy water (like Dawn or
    Palmolive).  Often there are fluids which build up if the bird is 
    recently demised - they can get to smelling yucky and can affect the 
    taste.  Plus there might be other forms of debris inside that you want 
    to flush out.  Just fill up the sink with water, add half a teaspoon of
    detergent and plunk the bird in.  Stick your hand inside the cavity and
    give it a good swirl around.  Rinse the soap solution out thoroughly and 
    you won't have any effects from the soap on taste, etc.  
    
    There are sometimes pinfeathers which don't get plucked successfully. 
    If your fingers aren't strong enough to pull them, try pliers or try
    burning them off with a match.
    
    -sd

	I have been cooking Farm Fresh turkeys for Thanksgiving every
	year for the last 5 years or so.  Originally I had been getting 
	them through a DEC employee who worked in WMO and raised turkeys.
	The last couple of years I've been getting them from Mello-Lane
	Turkey Farm in Marlboro.

	In both cases the turkeys always came well cleaned and prepared.
	The internal organs were wrapped and placed in the cavity just
	as with a commercial bird.

	As stated in .7 clean the bird properly.


	-kg

    Thanks for the replies.  I wasn't expecting a feathered bird, but
    I like to be prepared for what I'm going to get.  Next question, since
    this isn't self basting, what are the best true and tried methods of
    cooking the bird.  I've read the notes about cooking it breast side
    down, and plan to give it a try, but do I baste it with anything? Also,
    do suggested cooking times come with the bird?  Does a fresh bird cook
    quicker/slower than the frozen kinds?
     
    I don't mean to sound dumb, but there are so few recipes, and I don't
    have any relatives nearby to guide me through this. AND we are having
    guests that deserve a GOOD meal.  In other words, I don't want to screw
    up.
    
    Thanks again for any help.
    
    Jennifer

    Fresh and defrosted turkey will require the same amount of time to
    cook.  Most cookbooks will provide a guideline for stuffed and
    unstuffed birds.  If you have any doubts on testing for doneness
    use a meat thermometer.  Stuffed takes longer than unstuffed.
    
    As a rule of thumb I use 17 min/lb at 350F with 20 minutes standing
    time add 5 minutes per lb for stuffed.  I adjust according to a number
    of things such as initial temp stuffing or not, clear juices, inverted
    cooking (breast size down), etc.  Get a ball park number from a
    cookbook and check with a thermometer about 20-30 minutes before hand.
    
    Rather than have the bird cooked stuffed and risk drying out the
    meat with what may be 1-2 hours of additional cooking, I usually add a
    bit of carrot, onion, etc and spices to the cavity, and cook the
    stuffing seperate (adding defatted pan juices to moisten at the end).
    
    Once at the correct temp, let stand for 20 minutes lightly covered
    on the carving board so the meat can "rest."  Basically the meat
    contracts during cooking forcing the juice out of the meat to the
    extremeties.  The resting period allows the juices to be re-absorbed
    into the meat.
    
    Cooking breast side has in my experience resulted in jucier white meat
    and a more even cooking spread between dark and white meat.  One
    problem is that if you start out breast side down initially the skin
    tend to stick.  Its not a pretty to carve and juices are lost.  To
    compensate I usually heat the oven to 450, and cook on a rack breast up
    for about 1/10th the total cooking time.  I then flip the bird and turn
    down to 325-350.  I then flip the bird back about an hour from done,
    and baste with a bit of butter to get the golden brown top.
    
    Basting is a matter of taste.  Many people use melted butter, some the 
    pan juices (those basters that look like a huge siringe don't do a damn
    thing) some nothing at all.  I use a mixture of dry white wine, and the
    pan juices every 20-30 minutes (less frequently at the beginning, more
    frequently toward the end - provides something to do while you wish the
    damn thing was done).  Cooking breast side down makes the basting
    interval less frequent.
    
    I cook turkey year round (with the fix'ns) so its gotten to be a rather
    quick drill.  If the lbs of butter and turkey fat that my mother
    regularlly used are omitted its a very healthy low fat meal.

    re: .9  
    
    I know how you feel about a lack of solid info on how to roast a
    turkey.  I can't count on Mum 'cause she cooks everything to death.  I
    haven't found two cookbooks that even remotely agree with one another! 
    And asking other people for their technique is about as helpful as
    consulting cookbooks (eg, one person says to cover and roast at 200,
    another says to roast uncovered at 350).  And forget even *trying* to
    get an answer to the "stuff or not stuff" question!  
    
    I have only one turkey to roast, but a bazillion different ways to do
    it.   :^(
    
    Sue
                          

    One thing that seems to be critical in the selection of the 100's of
    suggested methods to cooking a turkey is what you expect the end result
    to be. 
    
    Everyone seems to know what the thing should taste like when its done,
    but like cooking methods these expectations vary.
    
    The method in .10 is the result in lots of trail and error to arrive at
    what I expect the final outcome to be, you milage will indeed vary.
    
    Some people prefer dry white meat 'cause it soaks up so much gravy,
    others want the dark meat to come out with a shredded consistency, some
    what perfect slices, others tender chunks, etc.  
    
    However, having tried just about every permutation over the years I can
    offer a good guess at the cooking method if you can describe what you'd
    like the end result to be no judgements made or implied.
    
    -kevin
    

    Just to dissent a little, I was surprised by .10's assertion
    that the syringe-type basters never work. I assume you mean the
    ones with the rubber globe on the end. I find they work just
    fine for the pan juices as long as the nozzle doesn't get clogged 
    with solid matter. They don't last for ever, however, as the rubber 
    seems to get brittle after a couple of years and then the seal isn't 
    as tight. But they're cheap enough that it's not a big deal to buy 
    a new one every so often.

    I'm also a little dubious about the part where you say "just flip
    the bird over". Can it really be so easy with a 16-pound turkey?!    
    I know I've described my method for turkey elsewhere in this
    conference so I won't go into it again, but suffice it to say
    that bacon, for me, is the vital ingredient, and the bird lies
    on its back the whole time.

    ...Robert

    Actually, come to think of it, maybe the lack of consent on cooking
    methods is evidence of the fact that there are any number of ways
    to achieve palatable results. In other words, don't let the turkey
    scare you, don't panic, and you'll probably do just fine.
    
    ...Robert
    

    
    	Our method:
    
    
    	Cook 'un stuffed', breast down for ~1 hr.
    
    	flip over, and stuff.
    
    	return to oven cook 'till done.

    My husband has cooked his turkeys in the brown paper sacks from the
    supermarket.  I guess he saw this as a cheap alternative to the cooking
    sacks you can buy.
    
    It does make it impossible to flip the  bird, though.
    
    Has anyone else cooked the bird in a bag, supermarket or otherwise?
    
    Also, I heard recently that you should not cook food in bags except
    those specifically designated for culinary use, because supermarket
    bags may have toxic materials in them, such as metals from recycled
    paper, or insecticides to prevent the roaches from setting up home.
    
    Any more information on the bag method?
    
    Laura

    I'd be a little dubious I think, if only because I'd think the bag
    would absorb too much fat that would more usefully be basting the bird.
    But if he's done it and it works then go ahead. (Also I'm unsure what
    those cooking sacks look like; they may be just as absorbent). I don't
    think I'd be too concerned about toxins in the paper but then again, if
    it's only a few cents cheaper I might say "why risk it?".
    
    Me, I wrap the turkey in a spacious (but sealed) tent of foil. It takes
    a LOT of foil to do that, however.
    
    ...Robert
    

    
    I've cooked turkeys and chickens in cooking bags.  (You're right,
    always use bags designed for cooking in.... not supermarket sacks.)
    Personally, I don't find them worth the trouble.  I get consistantly
    good results with a tinfoil tent and basting with a bulb baster.
    
    dm

    
    
    
    I cook my turkey on the webber (BBQ)... And always get rave results....
    
    

    After reading about Bob's turkey farm in here, I decided to order a
    fresh turkey from them.  Could someone give me directions for how to
    get there?
    
    Thanks!
    
    	--Sharon
    

    Where are you coming from?
    
    They're off 117 in Bolton or you can get there off 110. I pass by there
    every day to/from the gym.
    
    beth

    i had a 26 lb fresh turkey two days "after" thanksgiving.  a friend of
    mine gives out $400.00 worth of these babies to families for x-mass. 
    needless to say, we wanted to cook ours right away and not freeze it.
    
    i had to put it in at 7:00 a.m. and it was done around 7:00 p.m.  it
    was falling apart in the oven (300oF) but i was waiting for guests.  
    when i went to pick the bird up (well, when the stronger of us went to
    pick it up!) and it just fell apart.  we ended up just stripping the turkey
    of the meat right in the pan and then taking the stuffing out while it
    stared us in the face because all the turkey just fell off the bird
    with no effort.  
    
    i had never tasted a turkey so tender.  and, i have never had so much
    turkey leftover either.
    
    cj
                     

    I have decided to get a fresh turkey this year and was thinking about
    smoking it.  Should I stuff the bird if it will be smoked?  What other
    information will be necessary for a smoked bird?
    
    Thanks..
    cj

    cj
    
    I don't stuff my turkeys when I smoke or Barbecue them.  I do
    occaisionally stuff sage or taragon leaves under the skin and toss a
    quartered onion into the cavity.
    
    I have a weber kettle, so what I do is pile 50-60 charcol briquettes in
    to start, and once they are grey ashed, move them to the side, and put
    the turkey in the middle with a drip pan underneath the rack.  I add 5
    briquettes on  each side about every 30 minutes, and use a meat
    thermometer to make sure I don't over-cook the bird.  We soak apple
    branches and add them on each side while the bird cooks to add a nice,
    smoky flavor.  Oh and I keep the vents fairly closed.  
    
    meg

I smoke my turkeys in a similar fashion to Meg's procedure, but with a
Brinkman smoker. I've never even thought about stuffing the bird, largely
due to the time required to smoke relative to roasting. (Generally at
least twice as long, for me.)

    
    Hi Cj,
    
     You shouldn't stuff a turkey that's going to be smoked. The interior
    may not cook sufficiently to kill bacteria due to the additional bulk
    of the stuffing.  Do your stuffing separately. The last thing you want 
    is to worry about your guests getting ill. 
    
     Lv

I've done both.  If you use the Weber kettle method, time and temperature is not
appreciably different from using a traditional oven, so bacteria is not a
problem (not any greater than a stuffed bird in the oven).  However, if using a
lower temp longer duration smoker I'd worry.

Personally, I find that the bird picks up more flavor if done without stuffing. 
If you bake the stuffing in a separate dish, just before you take it out, use
some of the drippings from the turkey over the top.  You can control how much
fat you add, and still get that flavor that only comes from the added turkey fat.

    Geez.. I don't know what the heck I was thinking of yesterday.  I am
    planning on buying a fresh bird and giving it to "Blood Farm" to smoke
    for me.  This of course means that the bird will be cooked already and
    I will not have to worry about stuffing it, or cooking it.  It will
    just have to be reheated, correct?
    
    cj

RE: .28

Correct.  Just to make sure, ask the Blood Farm folks when you
give them the bird if it will need any further cooking on your part
after it's smoked.

--PSW

    I've done chickens using similar procedures as earlier described using
    both my Weber and my smoker.  One way I love is to 'stuff' the bird
    with a head (or two or three ... ;-) of garlic (individual cloves
    pealed and just placed in the cavity). Makes for a wonderful
    smokey-garlic flavor and you then have soft smoked garlic for spreading
    on bread or adding to other dishes.  Using the Weber the chicken
    finishes with a good garlic flavor (due to the higher temp more fully
    cooking the garlic I think); using the smoker there's more smoke flavor
    and less garlic (garlic doesn't always become soft and 'spreadable').

    I've cooked turkeys on the weber before and they turn out great, but
    I've never tried doing a turkey with the garlic (though I've thought
    about it, which is why I mention this here).

    fwiw,
    \steve

In one of the turkey notes in this file is Garlic Turkey.  A recipe that uses
about 40 cloves of garlic pureed with some herbs and spices and rubbed under the
skin of the bird.  The bird sits in the fridge overnight before cooking.  

I've done this many times, and it's best done on an outdoor grill, unless you
REALLY like the scent of garlic in the house.  

It always comes out terrific.  A real garlic lover's delight.

    .31> In one of the turkey notes in this file is Garlic Turkey.  
    
    That would be Note 36.59 - thanks!
    

    
    Meg, you mad smoker you...
    
    For the person that asked, the only way to enjoy fresh smoked turkey
    is smoke it yourself. Aside from the fact they are hard buggers to 
    light('^') and the after effects are weird.
    
    For all you smokers out there... I owe all my knowlege to MEL!
    
    Actually I smoke alot of turkeys in the summer too. I have a Brinkman
    barrel type charcoal model. I purchased the accompanying blanket which
    cost as much as the smoker itself but, it allows me to keep the temp
    up and smoke just as good in the wind and cold. For turkeys I do this
    
    First peel about 3 large onions cut them in half and toss them into
    the big hole in the turkey. Add about a pint of port wine in the 
    big hole as well with the onions. Then, I brush honey onto the entire
    bird. I add 2 cans of budweiser to the the water bowl and fill to top
    I fill the coals to the top and I use applewood for smoke. In the
    summer 2 12-14lb turkeys take about 9-10hours in the winter about
    13-14 hours. The blanket is worth the investment
    
    When finished I place on a table and its gone in about 8 minutes