Conference turris::cooks

    ADD LYCUEM::CONSUMER -- Notes 514, 639, 830 contain info on stoves.
    

    If I had to replace my range there's no doubt I'd get a Jenn-airre.
    
    We had put one in the last house we remodeled and were a little
    hesitant about the cost but were quickly impressed by its cleanup
    capabilities (ceramic tops), convection oven, indoor grill with
    interchangable skillet.
    
    It was about 30% more than other drop-in ranges at the time but worth
    it.
    

I'm going to try and revive this old topic.  We are in the long process of
preparing to move to a new house.  My requirement for the new house is the
kitchen better be my dream kitchen.  I've always had an electric range but
was wondering if I would prefer a gas stove in the new house.  Having natural
gas available would not be a problem.  I've found gas to be responsive to
control (immediate response) where the electric burner takes forever to 
cool down (and sometimes heat up).

What do you feel is the pros and cons of range vs stove?  My hubby thinks
I am nuts about wanting to change to gas.  I have seen ads in magazines
of combination gas/electric stove/ranges.  Does anyone in here have one of
those?

Judy

re: .3

All I can say is that once you spend some time with gas burners you'll never
be able to go back to electric "burners" again.

On the other hand, I kind of like electric ovens.  My personal ideal setup
might very well have gas stovetop with electric oven.

Actuall, my *real* ideal setup would be a six-burner commercial range with 
two ovens and a separate broiler. :-)

-Hal

    I have cooked with both gas and electricity. I prefer gas, to the point
    where when moving house I would not consider any new house which did
    not have gas. On a hob, gas gives me the degree of control not afforded
    by electricity, especially for cooking with a wok.
    
    Saying that, my oven and grill (broiler) is electric. The heat
    distribution over the element of an electric grill seems more even than
    I've ever obtained with a gas grill. I never was too happy about gas
    ovens, not too sure why. Maybe is bacause with some gas ovens I've had
    its possible to blow out the burner flames (on a very low setting) by
    shutting the oven door quickly.
    
    I've been intrigued by these halogen electric hobs, but have yet to
    find anybody with anything positive to say about them, plus their
    damned expensive.
    
    At the end of the day its what you're comfortable with and what you
    mainly cook.
    
>  What do you feel is the pros and cons of range vs stove?  My hubby thinks
>  I am nuts about wanting to change to gas.  I have seen ads in magazines
    
    Who's the cook, you or hubby? In our household I'm the principal cook.
    The kitchen is my provence. I decide on appliances and layout, with my
    wife profering positive advice and sanity checking. However, my wife
    is the sweets/cakes cook, so what she says here is gospel, with me
    providing the sanity check.
    
    Angus       

    I am doing this as we speak, ahhh "note", a gas cooktop and a electric
    double oven built in.  Boy that really hits you for the bucks. We could
    have done a gas stove with electric ovens for a lot less $$.  Not only
    are the separate units more $$, the cabinet fo rthe builtin is right
    up there -- and we're not getting expensive cabinets either.  Anyway
    for the cab, I told the salesperson, I'd make my own but order the rest
    of her layout -- for cabinets it's the easiest of the bunch to make
    it's just the biggest.  (The cab listed for $1083 so even with the
    53% discount, it'd be $495.)
    
    Anyway, back to type of cooking, we opted for the propane cooktop
    because we like cooking with gas but I think electric ovens are
    easier to regulate and besides, we just had to economize somewhere :-).
    
    ed
                                

I've got the Jennaire range with gas cooktop and electric oven.  Love it.  I
wouldn't part with it.

My mother-in-law just replaced her electric range with ceramic elements (not
because it was old, but because it was the worst excuse for range technology
ever invented) with a new ranger that has a halogen cook top (the kind you might
have seen on Graham Kerr'show).  The halogen units are the closest I've seen to
the responsiveness of gas/propane yet.

			-JP

    We have gas, and I wouldn't trade it for the world.  While I am still
    stuck with the horrible stove that existed when we moved in, I wouldn't
    trade it for the highest tech electric on the market. 
    
    As others have said, our ideal would be a six burner/double oven set up
    with sealed gas burners.  However, that is in the future when we can
    afford to redo the kitchen.  For now, I will put up with the
    apartment-sized four-burner we have.  For canning, gas is really the
    way to go, because of the heat control.  I would hate to have to move
    our double-decker pressure cooker off a burner because i couldn't get
    the heat down quickly, or to risk jar leakage by letting the pressuer
    off quickly to get the same result.
    
    meg

	grew up with an electric stove in the house, and now that i've
	been using gas for many years, can't imagine how my mother
	stood it.  gas is the only way to go, imo.  you can boil a pot
	of water faster on electric, but that's about the only advantage
	that springs to mind.

	hold out for gas!!  8^)

    I agree with what everyone has said so far: grew up with electric, have
    gas now, and would hate to go back!  I have a lot more control, and I
    can heat small pans much faster.  If I had room for it, I'd love to
    have a big commercial stove with a real wok burner, among other things
    - there are stir fry dishes I can't make because I can't get the wok
    hot enough.  (Yeah, you can buy a separate wok burner, but I don't know
    where I'd cram that in either - very small house!)  If you had an
    electric stove, you definitely couldn't - though some friends have good
    luck with a flat-bottomed ("Mongolian") wok.
    
    /Charlotte

My hubby is worried about the film build up around the stove from gas.  Is
that still a problem?  We had propane in a mobile home for a few months
while we canned meats and veggies prior to moving to the mountains and
became hippies.  ;-)  And everything was covered with this sticky film that
was the pits to try and clean off.  Also a concern is the gas consuming the 
oxygen in the house.  In motor homes and travel trailers they say to open a 
vent or window prior to cooking.  Does everyone vent their gas stove's
exhaust?

BTW, I am the primary cook.  He cooks if I'm not around and it is something
simple.  I like to keep the kitchen my domain.  :-)

I still can't decide on a center island...I think I would run into it all
the time.  Thanks for the responses so far.

Judy

The film buildup is not gas, but grease.  The best solution is an exhaust fan,
but you will still get a film in some places (notably around the exhaust fan).

I wouldn't worry about consuming all the oxygen in the house.  Most houses are
leaky enough to solve that problem.  On the other hand, my exhaust fan is more
powerful than my house leaks, and results in pulling air down the woodstove or
furnace flues unless I open a window a little bit in the kitchen.

>> The film buildup is not gas, but grease.  

Yuk!  Thanks for that info.  That film was everywhere in the mobile home we 
bought and we thought it had to do with the propane.  Well, now we know.  We
took out the stove shortly after we moved to the mountains and put in an old
wood cookstove instead so we didn't see the problem continue.  Maybe the 
people before us were into deep frying alot.  How gross!

Judy

You don't need to deep fry at all.  Anytime you sautee, brown, sear, stirfry,
just about anything, you'll get airborn grease or oil vapors.  

If you use an exhaust fan they will stay concentrated around the stove. 
Otherwise, it drifts all around the house.

Due to lack of storage, I keep a couple of trays on top of the cabinets above
our stove.  These are always coated with a film, and it takes lots more than 1
run thru the dish washer to get this film off, too!  Lately, I've taken to
storing them in a bag and recycling the bag periodically.  The cabinets are
easier to keep clean.  We use regular treatments of Murphy's Oil Soap, which
prevents the film from adhering.

    You probably don't need much more encouragement, but like so many
    others, I grew up with electric and now have a gas stove/oven.  I would
    not go back to electric.  And frankly, I don't have any problems with
    the gas oven, either, although many comments I'd read here made me very
    nervous before I used it for the first time.  Maybe I'm just lucky with
    this particular oven (it seems small to me, but works great).  It's an
    older stove, so I know it's not because it's a new model.
    
    
    Susan

RE:                  <<< Note 2014.15 by DONVAN::FARINA >>>
       
    >>And frankly, I don't have any problems with the gas oven, either, 
    >>...
    >>Maybe I'm just lucky with this particular oven 

        Mark me down as another lucky person.  My gas oven is great, and
    it IS a new model.

                                    Greg

Regarding ventilation when a gas stove is in use:

In my experience, a gas stove doesn't require any special ventilation 
requirements.  The only caveat I've ever heard in this regard is that 
you should never use a gas range as a substitute for a proper heating 
system to heat your house.  You run the risk of carbon monoxide 
poisoning if you do.  This isn't a problem when using a gas stove for 
cooking because when cooking, you don't leave all the burners on full 
blast for long periods of time as is the case when you're using the 
stove to heat the house.

--PSW

    Why don't people like gas ovens? I've had gas stove and oven for 11
    years, and I love it.  I, too, went from electric to gas, and aside
    from the initial few months where I BURNED everything, I would not go
    back to electric.  What is the "con" for a gas oven?
    BTW, my stove/oven is well over 35 years old (avacado green, no less!),
    has a heater with it.  Mine is vented into the chimney. Never had a 
    problem or repair on ANY of the components.  
    Sarah

   My uderstanding is that the heat may be more uniform in
   electric ovens.

   However, my mom had a self-cleaining gas oven which was very
   well insulated (a Sears, but manufactured by Roper, still a good
   brand I believe) and had a very uniform temperature.  It also had
   this wonderful big burner that could be turned down to barely a
   simmer, impossible on a electric range.

   Perhaps not as fine as an expensive yuppie model like a Viking,
   (which are unbelievably uniform - and unbelievably expensive)
   but very good.  The self cleaning feature may have had something
   to do with this.

   In any case, you should always calibrate an oven by measuring
   when you set it up.

   - Jim   

    I don't pay too much attention to the oven's temperature as indicated
    on its control anyhow - I check the oven thermometer instead.  I think
    the control setting is a little bit low.  It doesn't matter a whole lot
    for most of the sorts of things I bake anyhow.  If the casserole is
    supposed to bake at 350 and the rolls that go with it at 400, they are
    both going to get done at 375 anyhow.  My gas oven has no problem with
    uneven heating unless you stuff in so many baking sheets that the air
    can't circulate around them (it heats, of course, from the bottom).  It
    needs an inch or so of clearance all the way around whatever is inside.
    
    /Charlotte

  OK, I guess I'm a renegade here.  I have a dirty secret to confess - I indeed
  cook on an electric stovetop.  Sigh.

  We are getting a new stove soon, and look to be settling on a Jenn-Air
  convection oven with a newer electric halogen stovetop.  I've never used a
  residential home gas stovetop  so I don't know what I'm missing,
  partially on purpose.  I have a tremendous distaste for the propane tanks
  required outside homes for gas cooking, I think they're the biggest eyesore
  possible on a house.  "This Old House" buried the propane tank last week -
  the tank cost: $900! That's probably equal to the cost of lifetime's supply
  of cooking propane!

  I haven't had any problems cooking on electric stovetops.  The only benefit
  to gas is a faster reaction time reducing heat by turning down the gas knob.
  True, but I reproduce the same behavior on an electric top by simply lifting
  the frying pan off the element, either a little or a lot, depending on the
  amount of heat reduction I want.  Instant reaction.  I have no problems with
  this method.

  This came from my innate cooking preference for cooking with only two exact
  cooktop settings - Off and High.  (This might be a cultural trait.  My
  mother, grandmother, and aunts all cook this way).  You either stir _very_
  fast or lift the pan often to compensate.  You cook fast! None of this having
  patience waiting around for a pan set on medium...  :-) 

  I used professional gas stoves as a part-time cook at a restaurant during
  high school years.  Gas worked well there but I got the same results as I get
  now with electrics (the only benefit that their model offered was being able
  to handle the heavy commercial abuse of slamming huge pots on it without
  having heating surfaces to worry about - I'm a little more careful with my
  own pans).  I haven't pined away for gas cooktops.  Maybe I don't know what
  I'm missing (though recent cooking on gas campstoves isn't sublime), but I've
  had good results and times on electrics so far.  Match that up with the
  promise of easy cleanup from the newer halogen tops, and I think you have a
  winning combination with it for in-home use.  Even without the fact that I'm
  often using heavier pans (La Creuset, etc) which have an inherently high heat
  'capacitance' anyway, requiring some attention toward looking ahead at what heat
  the pans will need in a few minutes from now anyway, negating the potential
  gas advantage when the pans are too heavy to lift.
     
  I can't imagine gas being that much of an ah-hah experience over electric,
  but what do I know.  Right now gas is for camping, halogens/electrics are for
  home.  Works for me...

    	-Erik

    	
              

    I have only been using this gas stove since March, when I moved into my
    house, but it is no "dirtier" than any electric I've ever used.  And I
    don't have to worry about the electric elements going on the gas stove
    - just the igniter!  ;-)
    
    If I had to have propane tanks, I probably wouldn't have a gas stove. 
    I have natural gas for my stove, furnace, and hot water.  Propane tanks
    would not only be an eye-sore, they'd make me very nervous.
    
    
    To the noter with the avocado stove:  mine's harvest gold! ;-)

    
    Not quite on the subject but a reference to an avocado green stove made
    me think of it...
    
    on a repeat of a tv show (Grace under Fire) this week, one of main
    characters, Wade, is trying to repair an old mustard colored
    stove/oven for Grace, to save her money. When asked to "please give me
    some good news about this stove!" his response is ..." they don't make
    it in this color any more!"
    
    Now - back to the regularly scheduled program....

    I started in 1969 with an AQUA gas stove with no features, went to
    a brown gas stove with self-cleanning oven later, and now have an
    almond gas stove with self-cleanning oven.  I have to set the oven
    door in the lock position so it's not continuous clean.  I have 
    always preferred a gas stove and oven.  

    justme....jacqui

    My ideal kitchen would have gas burners (for their excellent heat
    setting control) and electric ovens (for their more uniform heat).
    
    The very thing that I like in a gas burner, the fact that it heats and
    cools quickly, is not something I want in an oven.  Conversely, the way
    electric ovens work (heat more evenly, cool more slowly) is not what I
    want in a burner.

    We are looking at a smooth-top electric stove - I guess it's Halogen???
    Anyways, I'd like to know peoples opinions on the smoothtops.  Some
    people in other files say they hate them but admitted they had older
    models.  I'm looking for people's comments who have newer ones.  We
    have only looked thus far at the Magic Chef and Whirlpool models.  They
    certainly seem like they'd be easier to keep clean.

    I have a smooth top Maytag about 3 years old. They come in a couple of
    varieties...Halogen and other. Other is what I have and it basically
    works like a regular electric cooktop. I did not have the choice of
    halogen at the time, well I did, buit it cost as much as the cooktop
    and oven I bought. Anyway, they are easier to clean once you get
    the system down and use the special cooktop cream cleaner and you can
    scrape burned stuff off with a single edge razor. I'd rather have 
    gas and a Viking at that, but cost was a concern at the time. The 
    black surface when shined properly set in in tile looks good and 
    cooks like any other electric.
    
    Saul

    Cross posted in HOME_WORK:
    
       	Perhaps I was dreaming at the time, but I could have sworn that I
    saw a combination gas/electric stove. What I was looking for was a gas
    oven and 2 of the 4 burners to be gas, while the other two are
    electric.

    	The reason being is that it makes no difference to my wife in 
    baking, broiling, or boiling if it is gas or electric, but she prefers 
    the control and heat dispersion of an electric burner for certain 
    things, like making omlets, for example. I like the gas because it
    can be used if power goes out and it's cheaper to operate than
    electric.
    
    	Does such a beast exist, or was it a figment of my imagination ?
    If it does exist, any leads or ballpark costs would be appreciated.
    I guess if one doesn't exist I could just get a gas stove and install
    an electric stove top somewhere ?
    
    	Ray
    

    Ray
    
    This may be different over there (I'm in the UK) but I've had a cooker
    which had an electric oven and the burners were gas (one unit not a
    separate oven and hob).  Not sure if you could have a combo on the hob
    though?!?!
    
    Sharon

    I would like to hear more from folks who have the halogen cooktops. I
    have not spoken to anyone who ever had one.
    
    I have cooked with gas for about 20 years and really like it.
    Unfortunately, I would never buy another gas stove unless it was piped
    in - NO MORE PROPANE for me. I live out in the country where my only
    choice is propane. I have on the average of 1 gas leak per year. I even
    heated with propane one winter and had more trouble with frozen lines.
    If it gets too cold condensation in the lines freeze, what a pain. I
    think it is dangerous. My hats off to those you who have had good luck,
    but I have replaced more propane tanks and lines in those 20 years than
    I care to think about. I just took out my gas Hot water heater and
    replaced it with electric (I know...) and this summer, the gas range
    goes - this means the ugly propane tank goes and all my fears of gas
    which by far outweigh the benefits of cooking with gas.
    
    Now back to the discussion of stoves - anyone out there with the
    halogen tops?
    

    
    
    Rep. .31
    
    >>>Propane is too dangerous for me...
    
      I have used propane for over twenty years and have had none of
     the problems you describe. 
    
    >>>Now back to the discussion of stoves - anyone out there with the
        halogen tops?
    
      I don't have one but my friends who have them either love them or
     hate them. There seems to be no middle ground. The small amount of
     cooking I have done them has left me in the hate them camp. I didn't
     like the heat control and dispersion but I did like the cleanup.
    
    
    -mike
    

 Nothing outweighs cooking with gas.

 Ever see any of the chefs in the shows using an electric or god
 forbid a halogen burner?--->

 Gas is what the pros use...

 - Dave

>  Ever see any of the chefs in the shows using an electric or god
>  forbid a halogen burner?--->
> 
>  Gas is what the pros use...

	But you are jumping to a conclusion as to "why" they use it.
	While it's likely that's the main reason, another potential
	reason is "cost" ..... (know how much it would cost to run
	that many burners all day long on electricity :-)

Let's also take a look at where these cooking shows are being filmed. It is one
thing to say Chef X has gas in his home, on a tv set, they are more likey to 
have a portable propane tank hooked up to the countertop ranges for
"portability"- sets don't stay put til the next week. they are disassembled and
moved so another show can use the space. 

>Let's also take a look at where these cooking shows are being filmed. It is one
>thing to say Chef X has gas in his home, on a tv set, they are more likey to 
>have a portable propane tank hooked up to the countertop ranges for
>"portability"- sets don't stay put til the next week. they are disassembled and
>moved so another show can use the space. 
    
    No they're not.  I worked in television for eleven years, and sets
    for weekly shows were permanant.  They were NOT disassembled every
    week; real estate (the floor space these sets took up) was MUCH cheaper
    than labor (the manpower needed to assemble/disassemble the sets --
    stage hands are NOT cheap labor.)
    
    As for cost -- in an industry where ingredients can get extremely
    expensive, the cost savings of gas vs. electricity is negligible.
    Pros use gas because they prefer it, for scores of reasons already
    documented in this conference.

    A friend of mine is a chef in NY city at the Plaza. He said the reason
    that all the rest. use gas is cost  but also because of the heat. Gas
    is hotter, it responds faster when you turn it up and down, if you 
    want to flame the dish, it is harder to get electric to flame unless
    you use a match, in his words "God forbid". Another reason is history,
    they have always used gas. Another reason he mentioned was that it is
    cleaner burning. things get spilled and with electricity you could get
    shocked. With gas it falls under the flame and get cleaned up later.
    He mentioned other reasons but I can't remember now.
    
    later

.36> expensive, the cost savings of gas vs. electricity is negligible.

	You don't live in NH, do you? :-)

.36> Pros use gas because they prefer it, for scores of reasons already
.36> documented in this conference.

	Oh yea, this conference is the best resource to find out why the
	pros use gas.  Digital is loaded with lots of ex-pro-chefs reading
	and writing in this notesfile :-)

	FWIW, a "gas vs. electric" cook-top discussion is also relatively
	recent in either the Home-Work or Cosumers conference.

    
     Wow,
    
     Are't we a bit testy this week. I simply stating a fact about gas. I
     do relaize the gentlemen that started the wanted info on electric. I
     believe I contributed the best I could. However, you are in the cooks
     file. You would be surprised how many of us have cooked 
     professionally at one time or another. This need not matter...
     because we are all cooks in this conference.
    
     When the tuff get going the tuff crank up the GAS.
    
     - Dave
    

  .39  agreed.  it doesn't take a brain surgeon to know why using
       a gas stove is preferable.  nor does it take a professional
       cook.  all one has to do is try both.  control is the name
       of the game.

    Sounds like .38 has a little case of agida (sp?), that is upset stomach
    in Italian from too much electric cooking. :-)
    
    pete

    I thought the points made about cooking with gas were excellent.
    I have an electric stove now and I do have to accomodate the
    slow response in both heating and lower the heat by using more
    than one burner for some of my recipes.
    
    Terry

> Sounds like .38 has a little case of agida (sp?), that is upset stomach
> in Italian from too much electric cooking. :-)

	Me thinks you and the other noter who thought I was testy didn't
	see the liberal use of :-) in my note.  And if anyone commenting
	had bothered to read my original note (.34), I even said it's the
	most likely reason they use gas, all I was saying is that the logic
	used to arrive at that conclusion is flawed and I offered another
	possible "hypothosis" for why the pros use gas (which BTW, note .37
	validates).

	FWIW, I have used both gas and electric.  Both have their advantages
	and disadvantages.  One of the big problems with electric is that
	there is a much wider range or quality than in gas stoves, so those
	using lower quality electric stoves will have a bad taste (pun :-)
	left in their mouth when it comes to electric.

	Here's a hint, count the number of loops the coil makes.  The low
	quality stoves have few loops and lots of open space between the
	loops.  This gives them very little surface area, and hence less
	energy output (and hence will take alot longer to boil water, etc).
	The cheaper electric stoves also usually only have one 8" burner
	and the other three are 6".

> You would be surprised how many of us have cooked 
> professionally at one time or another.

	I sure would be surprised as I certainly wouldn't be expecting
	even one (1) ex-professional chef to be noting in this conference.
	A switch from pro chef to working for a computer company appears
	on the surface to be a major career change.  I wouldn't be surprised
	that there are a number of ex-"cooks" in here (some being cooks
	in the military) however.

	Or was the noter who said "that's what the pros use" was anyone
	who "cooked" for a living?  If so, then my mistake, I had taken
	"pros" in this context to mean "professional chefs".

	In either case, as I indicated, it's irrelevant to the nit (and
	I admit it's a nit :-) I originally commented on.

Is panning allowed in this conference?

    
    
    Rep .45  Jack
    
    >>>Is panning allowed in this conference?
    
     
      Speaking with my moderator's hat on, yes but only with copper pans
    bought at Dehillern in Paris in person.  ;-)
    
    
    -mike
    

I have a combination radiant/halogen ceran cooktop.  I was the outstanding
home economics student in my senior year in high school.  I've been married
to the same person for 24+ years who loves my cooking.  I've never cooked
professionally but I've cooked on many surfaces including gas, electric stove
with the coils, woodstove and now the radiant/halogen cooktop.  I prefer the
cooktop.  

What I have found with the halogen burners is instant on and instant off. 
The radiant burners are instant on and slow to cool off like a regular 
electric coil.  I love having the ability to expand my countertop on top of 
the cooktop and have found it to be a breeze cleanup and have not had a 
problem with scratching.  I don't cook `gourmet' meals, no flames or anything
like that, but my hubby and our friends that have eaten in our home think
they are eating gourmet meals.  ;-)

Judy

Official moderator's policy is that we respect that viewpoints on 
subjects like gas stoves vs. electric stoves differ, and we don't get 
into religious wars about it.  See the verbiage about this sort of 
thing in one of the replies to note 1.

--PSW, COOKS host moderator

    
    The truth bareth---
    
    I recently moved and the newly inhabited abode had an electric stove
    of the coil type. I AM the cook I have ALWAYS cooked with gas. I said
    to my better half I would give the electric a try. Yick, I always seem
    to turn on the wrong burner(coil) and can never get it set to the temp
    I want. Forget the trying to get the flames flying with the sautee'.
    
    There is gas to the house. After 30 days with the electric IT OUTTA HERE!
    
    The plumbers will be here next week to get MY GAS back. I also need
    stove recommendations. Anyone got info on good gas stoves for the 90's.
     
    MODS --> If you want to move this to a new note kool...
    
     - Dave