Conference turris::cooks

    I'm not sure what happened, but I have a suggestion.  If you still
    have the bag the flour came in, write to the company.  Companies
    are usually delighted to hear from customers, and will often provide
    lots of information in response.  You might ask if they have a
    booklet about baking with oat flour.
    
    --Louise

    Oats are heavy, and don't contain much gluten (maybe even none).
    I love the flavor of oats and use them in a lot of baking (I like
    barley, too), but I've never tried to make a yeast bread with the
    big a quantity of oat flour in it - when I do make oatmeal bread,
    it comes out pretty heavy, but not disasterously so.  You need to
    use a lot more leavening in non-yeast breads and cakes with the
    oat flour.
    
    I don't bother to buy oat flour from the healthfood store anymore
    since it is easy to grind up rolled oats (I do still buy barley
    flour since barley is a good deal harder - the store bothers me
    a bit because it mostly sells things like ginseng-extract capsules
    and other questionable, and expensive, "foods").

    It's also quite possible that between the oat and wheat, it was
    simply too heavy.  Some recipes recommend adding a touch of cake
    flour (I know, not good for you) to lighten the batter.  You could
    try increasing the yeast by half, but that may just end up flat
    but more chewy.  I would try the cake flour, myself.  But then,
    I'm willing to sacrifice the health benefit for a loaf of bread
    that is presentable!
    I'd be interested to know if the company responds to you, since
    I love oat breads, but I have never seen a recipe for one.
    
    Sarah
      
    

Two ideas:

When blending several flours, make sure at least one cup is plain, unbleached,
white flour (maximum gluten)...make a sponge and let it rise, then stir it
down and continue making bread the regular way...the extra rising will raise
the gluten and give the yeast something to work with.

Oat flour is nice, but the real benefit is from oat BRAN, and this added
to your bread will NOT change the color to an ugly gray, and should not
bog down your bread nearly as much....the one problem may be with  it's
tendency to soak up liquids - you may need to add more of your liquids.
I would think 1 cup of oat bran to each 1 loaf's worth of ingredients
would be the maximum you'd want to add.

Just for the record, oat bran is not like wheat bran, much gentler on
the "fiber" issue, so one cup of oat bran/ loaf of bread (to replace 1 cup
of flour) would not be excessive....1 cup of wheat bran/loaf of whole
wheat bread might be excessive.

Anyway, home made bread is never a disaster....save it and make raisin
cinnamon bread pudding...they'll love it.

    You didn't mention salt in your base note; I assume that it was
    a note oversight and that you used about 1 to 1 1/2 tsp in baking.
    
    Assuming that you didn't also over-proof the final rising (unlikely
    with your previous experience), the problem is almost certainly in the
    flour. 

    Oat flour has no gluten.  Zippo.  One of your other flours was low in
    gluten (displaced by the bran, etc.) and the last was even lower (soft
    wheat flower with bran to boot). 

    I believe that the flour in yeast risen breads should be at least 85%
    to 90% wheat endosperm (or whatever the main constituent of ordinary
    white flour is called) flour.  The higher the gluten content of the
    primary flour, the more freedom you have in the other aspects.  Here
    are some suggestions assuming a six cup recipe: 

    If you use whole wheat *bread* flour, substitute in only one cup of oat
    flour, maybe less.  Likewise if you use "all purpose" white. 

    If you use whole wheat *pastry* flour, don't substitute in any low
    gluten flour at all.  It is already low. 

    If you use white *bread* flour, substitute in up to 1 1/2 cups of zero
    gluten flours (oat, corn, soy, buckwheat). 

    Treat rye as something between oat and whole wheat. 

    I'm winging this without my bookshelf, so I may be off base.  Try the
    above and tell us how you make out. 

    Incidentally, Ojakangas has a chapter of oat breads and another on
    barley. 

    I've seen gluten for sale - it's sort of a floury stuff.  In fact,
    when I was a vegetarian, I got some to use to make a meat substitute.
    since it's high in protein.  I got it in a health food store, as
    I recall.  Anyhow, would it work to use low gluten flours and then
    add some straight gluten to the dough to make up for the flours?
    Any idea how much you should use?
    
    --Louise

    I bake only with whole grain flour, though I have not tried an oatmeal
    bread yet. I would recommend you stop by a bookstore and look at
    Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book. It is an entire book on baking with
    whole grains, includes sections on using different grains, beans,
    eggs, milk, fruit, etc. I always use her method and have always
    been successful. My guess is that if you put some pastry flour in
    the bread, it was too low on gluten. I would start with your basic
    bread recipe, replace 1/2 cup of the flour with 1 cup oatmeal (not 
    oat flour), and increase the liquid slightly if you have to. This
    will make an oatmeal bread but will not rely on the oats for any
    help in holding together or rising.  I would only use ww bread flour
    and leave out the pastry flour. Use the pastry flour when you are
    not using other low/no gluten substances.                    
    
    Eryn Utz (also on QUILL, CREDIT and DEBIT::UTZ if you need to send
    me mail).
      

    Patti, now that we have talked you into not using that oat flour
    for yeast breads, especially since you are getting into French bread,
    do you want [polite] suggestions for the oat flour?
    
    I usually see oat flour in recipes for the quick breads where the
    gluten is of little concern.  Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book, memtioned
    in the previous reply, has a recipe for:
    
    Oatmeal Poppy Seed Bread (or muffins)          pg 317
    -------------------------------------
    
    oat flour		2	cups
    bread flour		  1/2	cup	whole wheat bread flour 
    baking powder	2 1/2	tsp
    salt		  1/2	tsp
    mace or nutmeg	  1/4	tsp
    poppy seeds		2	Tbs	plus some for a topping
    lemon peel		2	tsp
    
    milk		1	cup
    honey		3	Tbs
    oil			2	Tbs	or melted butter
    eggs		2
    
    chopped raisins	  1/2	cup	soaked in
    boiling water	  1/4	cup
    
    If you make this into a loaf, the baking time is an hour at 350.    

    If you want to use oat flour in normal yeast bread try using 2/3rds
    oat flour and 1/3rd reagular white unbleached flour. This will give
    you the glutton you need without sacrificing the taste of the oat
    flour.
    
    				Geoff

    RE: -1
    
    	Should be gluten not glutton. Thought gluttons can eat lots
    of food with gluten in them:-)
    
    			Geoff

     Here is a recipe for a batter bread that contains rolled oats.  I
     have made it on several occasions and it is very good, especially
     when served warm.  It's fairly dense and quite flavorful.


                         OATMEAL BATTER BREAD
                         
          To make 1 loaf:
          
                 1-1/2  cups  boiling water
                 3/4    cup   rolled oats
                 1/4    cup   molasses              tsp = teaspoon   
                 1-1/2  tsp   salt                 Tbsp = Tablespoon 
                 3      Tbsp  butter                              
                 1/4    cup   warm water (105-115F)
                 1      pkg.  dry yeast           
                 4      cups  sifted all-purpose flour
               

          1. In medium bowl, pour boiling water over oats.  Add 
          molasses, salt, and butter.  Stir and let cool.
          
          2. Pour warm water into a large bowl; add yeast and whisk to 
          dissolve.
          
          3. Add oatmeal mixture to yeast and gradually stir in flour.
          
          4. Cover with a towel and let rise in a warm spot until 
          doubled in volume. (30min.)
          
          5. With a wooden spoon, beat batter for 25 vigorous strokes.  
          Pour into greased bread pans (9x5x3").  Preheat oven to 400F.
          
          6. When bread has risen to within 1 inch of top of pan, bake 
          for 30-35 minutes, or until bottom sounds hollow when tapped. 
          Cool 10 minutes before serving.

You've all talked me out of using oat flour in yeast bread. I did
get some oat bran and have been adding it to some of my recipes. 
Yesterday, I used Al Ryder's recipe with the lemon  (947.?), but 
substituted in one cup of oat bran and 1/2 cup of sesame seeds. It is 
yummy. I will use the oat flour for batter bread. I wrote to Arrowhead 
Mills and asked for recipes. I'll post their reply.

That elusive bread baking touch is starting to come back to me...

Thanks for all the advice,
Patti