Conference trucks::football;1

    
    Trevor,
    	This debate ove national v club will always run and is not to
    Scotland. Sure one of the few countries where this doesn't seem to be
    the case is Germany. Any molly-coddlin' about injuries and the player
    will just not get picked again; any personal views on how should the
    team shape and who in it may be taken the wrong way and one can kiss
    their international career goodbye. Its tough but it 'seems' to work.
        Their opinion is still a very patriotic one...playing for your
    country should still be 'the' most important event of a player's
    calander should he merit it. All this messing around by Rangers and
    Manchester Unites may well hold water but they are given the perfect
    excuses to allow it to happen. Too crowded a fixture list.
    
    	In Scotland and England... there must be a meeting between the
    PFAs, the FA's and the Club Chairmen to iron out how the nationls can
    realistically always put out a near enough 1st selection team.
    
    Regards,
    
    Desmond. 
    
    	  	

    
    Dezz...understand this is not peculiar to Scotland, I want to hear from
    other countries....does it happen there ?   What do the authorities do?
    How do the players feel about representing thier country ? How do the
    fans feel about players doing it (whether their decision or not) ?
    
    BTW - hadn't heard about Man U being guilty...so thats already an
    input!
    
    Like the sound of the German methods...having said that, seems to me
    they have more desire to play for their country..or is it just that
    club teams there are more supportive of the national team ?
    
    ....oh...by the way.....you're making me nervous by signing "Desmond",
    a bit like when my mother used to shout "TREVOR".....knew immediately
    I'd done something wrong !! :-)
    
    Trev (or)

    I am not a great fan of International football (I support Kilmarnock
    remember) and I believe that players first loyalty should rest with
    there club.  
    
    Far too often players are pulled away from there club to
    train for a few days with other players from all over the shop, and
    then sit on the bench for 90 minutes.
    
    However when key players to International teams pull out at the last
    because "they have a nagging hamstring etc" then I think something must be
    done to punish either the Club or the player.  Ryan Giggs is the
    perfect example as he pulled out of the last few Wales games before the
    Belgium game.  Wales are not exactly what you would call well endowed
    with star players of Giggs's calibre so you can understand the fans if
    they get peeved.
    
    The question is though, what is the solution?  If a player can pick up
    a medical certificate that says he is not fit to play for his country,
    then what can you do?
    
    Mark.  

    Trev,
    	...was in work mode when I signed my note....
    
    Yes Manchester United have been guilty of finding players with suspect
    injuries...Ryan Giggs and Roy Keane for startrs...
    
    BTW the German players in question were/are Schuester and Effenberk.
    
    Cheers,
    
       Dezzz.

    
    Re -1....Effenberg ???  Was he the guy that got shipped home from Euro
    96 ?  
    
    Trevor

    
    Close...he was sent home from WC1994...for putting 2 fingers up to the
    crowd ??? after the Spanish game ended 1-1 ???
    
    Dezzz.

    .0
    
    Playing for your national team IS the ultimate honour in football. If
    a player is selected and his team claim that he's "injured", (i.e. the
    good old groin strain or hamstring), then it should be confirmed by the
    national team's doctor. I'm afraid that I have no sympathy at all
    with the clubs here. If only there were more players like Colin Hendry
    about, nothing short of death would keep that man off the pitch for
    Scotland....
    
    Ray....

                      <<< Note 603.4 by GYMAC::DCASSIDY >>>
>>> Yes Manchester United have been guilty of finding players with suspect
>>> injuries...Ryan Giggs and Roy Keane for startrs...
   
Des,
    I think you read the tabloids too much. Where's your proof of this statment.
A little fact you might be interested in, is that in all the games that Keane 
has missed for Ireland through injury, he has played for United the following
saturday on ONE occasion, and that was in a Derby game against City where he 
broke down and did not finish the game. I think we should be told if you have
more information on this subject, that the rest of us have no access to.

B@

    re-1
    
    Yes, so that may be Roy Keane excused but what about Ryan Giggs?  The
    number of times that he has called off at the last minute and then
    played for United in there following game is more than once.
    
    Mark.

    Hmmm interesting this one.  OK, consider the following scenario.  Wales
    are due to play a friendly against San Marino on a Wednesday night and
    Utd have a game against Liverpool the following Saturday.  Which of
    these games do you consider is the most important to Ryan Giggs ? 
    Well, I'd be willing to bet that its the latter.  The point I'm making
    is that in some circumstances club *is* bigger than country.  I think
    the best things is for international and club managers to meet at the
    start of a season and discuss the matches planned for the next 12
    months.  Hopefully with an agreement in place, it may stop some of the
    club v country issues later on in the season.
    

    This situation is worse for Nationwide league clubs. At least the
    premier league stops for the weekend when there's an international on.
    1st division clubs have to play on, unless you have either 2 or 3
    international players (not sure exactly how many). In Portsmouth's case
    this means that we're normally robbed of Alan Mcglochlin (bad sp??) to
    go and sit on the bench for Ireland.
    
    Sorry but club comes first for me. His contract is with Portsmouth, we
    pay his wages, the team suffers without him. Yes I want to see the
    British national teams doing well, and British teams in Europe, but the
    domestic stuff comes first. We've had situations where players are
    missing for VITAL games (relegation issues) and they don't even play,
    they sit on the bench for an international friendly. Or when players go
    to train with the international squad and come back injured, missing
    more games. If players are fit and well and it doesn't clash with team
    fixtures then off ya go sunshine, but it's club first. The only way to
    resolve this is as has been stated before for everybody to sit round a
    table in the close season, get ya scheduling computer out and work it
    out together, and whilst we're doing that lets make the closest
    fixtures happen around Xmas, so people don't have to trapse all round
    the country... A pet peeve of mine.
    
    My loyalties most defintely lie as follows:
    
    Club (Portsmouth)
    Country (England)
    Scotland/Ireland/N.I./Wales
    British teams in Europe
    .
    .
    Beazer League division 99 teams.
    .
    Southampton
    
    Alen.

    .11
    
    Interesting point about loyalties, you are saying that you would rather
    see Portsmouth win the FA cup than England winning the World Cup. Is
    this how others in here feel? If it were a choice between my favourite
    club team and my country, (Republic of Ireland), winning the FA Cup or
    the WC then the national team would win every time....
    
    Ray....

    
    Ray,
    
    Do you really think that the friendly against Mexico has *enhanced*
    England's chances of winning the World Cup ?  Playing a meaningless
    friendly at a time when clubs traditionally play 2 games has led to an
    inevitable fixture pile-up at the end of this season.  This is no good
    for players and fans alike.  

    Re .12
    
    Well hopefully the World Cup wouldn't clash with the domestic season...
    but it links in to .13. If my team was to be relegated because 2 key
    players were sitting on the bench of an international friendly against
    Outer Botswana, then yes I think I'd be a tad annoyed. It still comes
    back to the point of who pays ya wages? The occasional international
    isn't going to earn you enough to be able to slap some girly and buy ya
    way out. Players need some loyalty to the bread 'n butter stuff. The FA
    should schedule these things and build flexibility into the schedules
    in case teams last towards the later stages of cup competitions.
    
    Alen.

    
    rep.603.12
    
    I'd rather see any team win the F.A cup than England win the world cup!
    
    Iain.

    
    As I'm both a Chelsea and England supporter its neither been a problem,
    neither team had a hope in hell of winning anything......Until now !!!
    
    Must admit the FA need to sort this mess out as Club loyalty must come
    first, wages, injuries etc
    
    Little story for you thou...
    
    My mate was playing Celeb Golf tournamount wit Mr Merson and he was
    complaining that the fee for playing for England was crap....
    
    I suspect it was'nt enough to buy the two lines of smack he had ordered
    the night before !!!!
    
    Pj                        

    A timely article..........
    
    
    Growing dilemma of club or country for Africans
    
    By Mark Gleeson 
    
    Africa's large band of professional footballers are increasingly being
    caught in a dilemma of club over country as the qualifying campaign for
    next year's World Cup clashes with the end of the European season. 
    
    There are more than 250 African footballers who play for first and
    second division clubs in Europe, from Russia in the east to Portugal in
    the west, and many of them have to juggle the demands of their
    employers with the dreams of their countrymen. 
    
    All 20 of the African countries involved in World Cup qualifiers this
    weekend will be calling back players from Europe just days before vital 
    matches in league and cup competition. 
    
    A poignant example is South African fullback Sizwe Motaung, who will
    play for his country in a vital World Cup qualifier in the Congo on
    Sunday and then attempt to dash back to help his Spanish club Tenerife
    in their UEFA Cup semifinal, first leg match against Schalke O4 of
    Germany on Tuesday. 
    
    Motaung says it was a tough choice to make and has probably cost him a
    hard-earned starting berth for the Spanish team which he joined in January. 
    
    His dilemma is shared by countless African players, hard-pressed to
    keep their places in their club's first choice side in the wake of
    repeated travel back to Africa for national team duty. 
    
    This year countries are competing for five World Cup berths in France
    next year as well as playing qualifying games for 14 places at the
    African Nations' Cup finals in Burkina Faso next February. 
    
    Bachirou Salou, the Togolese striker who plays in Germany's Bundesliga
    for MSV Duisburg, has already made a choice between the two competitions. 
    
    ``I cannot afford to play in both the World Cup and Nations' Cup
    qualifiers, so I've decided to only go back and play in the Nations'
    Cup games where we have a better chance of qualifying,'' he said. 
    
    Then there are players whose national team places are also at risk
    because of club demands. 
    
    Egyptian defender Yasser Radwan, another African export to the
    Bundesliga, has risked losing his place in Egypt's team for Sunday's
    tie against Liberia in neutral Ghana because he has not been able to   
    accede to new coach Mohammed El Gohari's demand that players join camp
    14 days ahead of the game. 
    
    ``FIFA rules say that I must only be released seven days before the
    game and that's what I'm going to do,'' said Radwan. ``I can't afford
    more time away from my club.'' 
    
    The Confederation of African Football (CAF) said it had begun a process
    of trying to integrate its calendar with that of Europe so as to avoid 
    many of the clashes. 
    
    ``We already have several dates of our qualifiers which overlap with
    those of Europe when the clubs are not playing and the players are free
    to return home,'' said secretary-general Mustapha Fahmy. ``We hope in
    the future to regularise even more of these weekends.'' 
    
    One proposal is for African countries to play their qualifiers in
    midweek as in Europe, Fahmy added. 
    
    But for the moment African stars still have to tug between patriotism
    and their monthly pay cheques. 
    
    ``It is really the toughest decision I've ever had to make,'' said
    Motaung. 
    
                

    Certainly as Eurpean football (including English and Scottish) has become 
    more cosmopolitan more and more countries are having difficulty turning out
    their first choice teams. However, these countries are almost without
    exception, those who internationals all play abroad (hence the previous
    note about the African sides).
    
    With Germany, most German internationals play in the German League,
    hence German fixtures are designed to be in sympathy with the national
    team, not with Togo's.
    
    I'm Welsh and I never remember the English League (were nearly all our
    players are) ever doing us any favours vis a vis release for
    International games. Back in the 70s I distinctly remember both the
    Scottish and Welsh FAs getting very heated at the deliberate
    interfereance in their national teams progress by the English league
    (especially as this worked to the English national teams advantage,
    they always got their players released and certainly seemed able to
    benefit form the other "home" countries misfortunes).
    Having said that. I also feel very strongly that in Wales' case club
    form is hardly ever reproduced for country (which is immensely
    frustrating).
    
    In the club .vs. country side of this, I am always immensely pleased
    when any of the players of the club I follow (Luton Town) get selected
    for any international side (in fact I'd love Bulgaria and Ghana to be
    on international duty all the time ;-)). Yes, it is disapointing to see
    players go missing for crucial games, but it should be the ultimate
    goal of their career and money should have nothing to do with it.
    
    Perhaps the best solution is the cut out all the meaningless games that
    clutter up the season (auto-windshields trophy, league cup, european
    cup etc), then the fixture congestion issue shouldn't be a problem.
    
    As for Wales, perhaps we should just let Barry Town play the
    internationals for us. We'd probably do a lot better that way :-)
    
    Guy

    
    Mmmnnnn.....some good points coming out.  I think I have to say that
    the friendly issue is one where I side with the club first. If a player
    has an important club game e.g. on saturday, I think its nonsense to
    insist that he plays a friendly on a wednsday for his country. If the
    club and player are OK with that...fine....but insisting is silly.
    
    As with all these "disputes"...compromise and planning would help.
    However....how would you come to a sensible "compromise" when the
    quantity if "foreign players" is huge....and countries have all sorts
    of international fixtures.  When its a different continent that makes
    it even harder !  The continents ALL have their own championships..
    ...how about we have 2 seasons...a club season (including all the cups
    etc) and an international season.  A bit like the world cup, Euro
    championship etc.  Need to have a shorter club season though !!
    Never hear of players "not" wanting to be selected for these eh ?
    
    Another stupid idea from Trevor
     

    
    ....speaking of "friendlies"....Jamaica (preparing for their CONCACAF
    game against Mexico) played the Mexican 1st div select team...well,
    least they played them for 19mins before a massive fight broke out !
    Kicking, punching etc all over the place, referee abandoned the game.
    At one point, the Jamaicans run off the pitch...returning with broken
    bottles and bricks to "defend themselves" against the Mexicans !
    
    Not *quite* what I meant when I said friendlies were "different" !!
    ....however it's good to see national teams showing commitment ;-)
    
    Trevor

Okay, I've read the replies, here's the low down;
1) There are too many games in the season.
	So what, that's the rules and when you take the job(prof footy) you have 
to take the rough with the testimonial. If I have a lot of work to do, I don't 
whinge to my boss about putting the deadline back till the end of the year. It's 
the job and you have to get on with it, or get out.
2) Friendlies; These should be used to try out new talent, and first team players 
should be chosen only if their 'oh_we're_so_busy_cos_we're_succesful' teams agree 
to let them go.
3) Payment; You should not be paid at all for playing for your country, it is an 
honour. If you can't play because of your club, you should have your passport 
confiscated, and you should be deported. If there was a war, you get your call-up 
and "Please, Sir, I've got a bit of a funny tummy, can I sit this one out".
4) CLUB comes first; What's next, a small self governing state in Chelsea, or an 
small country starting up in OT?, a collective at Ibrox?, you play for the club, 
but your home is the country. I agree that the club pays the wages and should get 
the service, but they know when they buy the player that he is likely for int'l 
service, it is known that players get better and more experienced playing int'l 
matches.



If you don't like it, move to Licheinstein.





My 2p worth (8-))))))))))))


Mad

p.s. I come from the newly formed country of no 20, Acacia Avenue, so I'll be the 
captain of the next world cup qualifier team.8-))

    
    
    re -1
    
    
    what total nonsense..... words fail me
    
    
    

>2) Friendlies; These should be used to try out new talent, and first team players
>should be chosen only if their 'oh_we're_so_busy_cos_we're_succesful' teams agree
>to let them go.

  Isn't the main point of friendlies to allow the first team to play
  competitively together without the result being important?

  I must admit to not knowing the answer to the problem of conflict of
  interest. By default a successful team will be made up international
  players and the chances of the team winning trophies is effected when
  many of their players are called away for international duty. 

  Another thing to consider is just how difficult the trips to
  internationals can be nowadays. For instance playing away to some of
  the East European venue is not a case of a few hours on a luxury plane
  but a day travel by bi-plane, then a trip on a steam train, followed
  by a 5 hour ride crammed in the back of two skodas!

  I guess a sensible answer would be for all countries in a certain
  zone, eg Europe taking a break in all club matches at the same time
  for maybe 2 or 3 weeks and all the friendlies taking place during this
  break with at least 3 days free from any match or travel at the end of
  it.

  Rgds, Steve

    
    Re 21.....MAD, you are *well* named.
    
    Dick

An interesting point made last night by some bloke on that footy chat show;

 Allow an extension to the season, provided that players are released for 
international duty ?

 Interesting.

 Sort of


Mad

    
    
    Why not get rid of internationals  altogether and have games made up of
    say the Italian league vs Premier League....
    
    That way you could shut down the leagues programme easier plus as each
    country is going cosmopoliton (?) country status is becoming irrelevant 
    
    Pj

    RE .26
     
    What a load of b*****ks! "country status is becoming irrelevant" Where
    do you come from Outer Zarg or something, if you have no feeling for
    your country or if you think that its irrelevant you need to see a
    psychiatrist. My guess is your probably English, cause with Glenn
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzz Hoddle as manager anything would be a better
    alternative.
    
    
    
    MWT (Patriot till death....FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!)

    
    
    >>>if you have no feeling for
        your country or if you think that its irrelevant you need to see a
        psychiatrist.
    
    
    why ???
    
    
    a country is just a bit of land with a man made border....this is a 
    fact and it makes the idea that expressing your nationality by getting
    drunk and wearing a tartan covered red wig seem a bit sad
    
    

    RE.28          Who's talking about getting drunk or wearing silly hats.
    As far as I'm concerned Scotland isn"t just a country, it's where I was
    born, where I was brought up and where I'll die. It's in my heart and
    my soul. If you feel nothing for Scotland why are you here?
    
    MWT  

   "If you feel nothing for Scotland why are you here?"
    
    What a lot of crap!!!  So what your saying is that if you feel nothing
    for a country then you cant live in it.  That is the type of narrow
    minded attitude that causes football hoolganism and such like.  I'll be
    presuming you went out to stomp an Englishman after watching "Braveheart".
    
    You may be Tartan + Proud of it, but it does not mean you have to go
    over the top.
    
    Mark.

    
    
    I think that the international teams play too many matches. For example
    what useful purpose is served by playing San Marino (or their like)
    home and away in a league format.
    
    I believe the World Cup should be a straight knockout competition for
    qualification. Seed the top 'x' countries ( x= however many teams you
    expect in the final stages).  Draw all the other countries into groups
    of seven, add the seeded team. Then have a draw for each group of
    eight just like we would for the quarter finals of the FA CUP. Ties
    could be one-legged or two legged, but if two legged I believe that
    both legs should be played within a week of each other (eg Wednesday
    and the subsequent Wednesday) so the league  is only interrupted for 
    one weekend.
    
    This would mean only losing three weekends throughout a two year
    qualification period. 
    
    Richard.

    
    Mmm,
    	I must agree here Richard...about maybe go one step further ..
    ala the Davis Cup in Tennis. Break all the teams (~200) into groups
    of 2 in each continent initally based on FIFA rankings.
    
    So for the World Cup Europe would have about 50% of that ..32..
    	i)  	8 Seeds
    	ii) 	8 Groups of 4 (6 matches)
    	iii)    Top 2 in each group qualify.
    	iv)	Bottom teams play against the winners of a similar set up
    		for the remaining European teams via best of the bottom
    		teams against the weakest winners; thus enabling weak nations
    		to realistically rise at a measured pace.
    
    It seems odd that in CONACAF and Asia they have identified that some
    matches are indeed meaningless thus have preliminaries. For example
    they have realised that Saudi Arabia (unbeaten since the last World Cup
    I think) are not going to struggle to put 10 past India or Pakistan
    thus do not enter qualification until a later stage.
    
    If matches between England and San Marino must really happen then let
    the 'club' teams (minus their internationals) play these teams on the
    six 'o clock slot before the main international as a friendly and a
    jolly for the club teams. Thus for example San Marino could entertain a
    top English/Italian/German club team on the Wednesday at 18:00 whilst
    Italy play England in Rome at 20:30.  
    
    Who's happy...methinks everyone.
    	 1) Clubs have in their own hands what they do with the spare time.
    	 2) National managers of strong nations having less silly games.
    	 3) National managers of weak nations having a more competitive
    game to 'learn' from stronger nations clubs.
    	 4) TV companies who might opt a 'flavour' for the big event.
    
    Just my thoughts....
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Dezzz.  
     
    I know some might say (thank you Noel!!)
    that the Davis Cup is every year so it would allow 

We have a club vs. country problem of a different sort here 
in Massachusetts. A particularly popular bearded red-head has 
been playing at *less than* peak form for both club and country. 
Both teams are playing in a doubleheader on April 20th at 
Foxboro Stadium - USA vs. Mexico WCQ and New England Revolution 
vs. Tampa Bay Mutant Bats (see their logo). 

Said red-head wants to play in both matches. Respective team 
supporters are falling over themselves saying, "No, please, 
play in the OTHER game, really, we don't mind losing your 
services (cough, cough)."

    
    Re -1...brilliant !
    
    One thing I'm interested in with this scenario....assuming both the
    Revs and Tampa Bay have players in the national pool....I assume that
    they have the first choice...right ?  It is a world cup qualifier after
    all.....
    
    Anyway....Alexi Lalas should stick to playing the guitar....did you see
    the article on TV about him and his "band" ?  Do you know if he went
    "serious" with this ?  He seemed to be saying that this was his future
    career.......
    
    Trevor

    Re.30
    
    No in actual fact I did not go "out to stomp an Englishman after
    watching "Braveheart"." So your very arrogant presumption is wrong. You
    must be very shallow minded to make comments like that. You don't know
    and have never met me, therefore how can you make slanderous statements
    about me. Just for your reference my wife was born in England and my
    in-laws are all English (must absolutely hate English people musn't I?).
    My point is that people should have pride in their nationality, if you
    don't then you are denying a huge part of your identity. Sport is only
    a small part of this, but if you lose national status on the football or
    rugby pitch or at whatever sport you play the much of it becomes
    meaningless. I mean who would you rather represent, a so called Premier
    League select or you country. I think the shine would be lost if you
    were asked to support a Premier League select and not Scotland.
    Alright, other countries must be respected but that shouldn't detract
    from your love for your own country.
    
    Still Tartan and Still Proud
    MWT
    
    
    
    or   

    re .29 & 35
    
    >>> If you feel nothing for Scotland why are you here?
    
    Do I need a reason ??? I was born here and I work here and its a pretty
    country....so what! It doesnt fill me with national pride. If thats the
    way you feel about Scotland well done! I come from a family of migrants
    anyway...Irish/Italian so I suppose thats the main reason I'm not a 
    great patriot. I don't have any great longing for my ancestral
    fatherlands either though when it comes to footie I'll always like to
    see Italy or Ireland giving Scotland a right good gubbing.
    

    RE LAST
    
    Been to lot of Italy or Ireland games?

    
    
    re -1
    
    never miss a home game