Conference thebay::joyoflex

    G'day,
    
     May I ask if your spoken french is proceeding as fast as your reading
    french? french is not _that_ a difficult language to learn since
    generally it is pretty regular, though the passe historique can be  bit
    of a menace....
    
    
    Spoken french is a different trial... 
    
    Derek
    
    But even this is easy, really, after all all the dogs in france...
         

    	Written language can be learned at any age, but speaking it seems
    to get much more difficult as you get older. Also, there isn't really a
    substitute for daily use with people for whom it is their native
    tongue.
    
    	My younger daughter has had the best opportunity. She was only 2
    when we moved to France, and by the age of four she was providing
    translations between French and English. At ten she started at the
    local secondary school, and since she was already bilingual
    English/French she started German immediately. She is just back from an
    exchange visit, and is now "taking off" the Schwabisch accent of the
    area she went to. When she was twelve the school said they would start
    a beginners class in Arabic if there was enough interest, so we put her
    in for that. Now, at nearly 14 years old she says she can understand
    the snatches of Arabic that occasionaly occur on television here.
    
    	For myself, after 12 years in France I can read French pretty well,
    even to enjoying Rabelais in the original, though with much looking up
    of words. (In fact, when the English translation comes out to something
    like "culverin" I then have to go and look up the English word too ;-)
    For spoken French I still have to concentrate hard to chat with the
    neighbours.

    Yes, the spoken language is harder.  But something I'm trying, and
    which I think is helpful, is reading out loud.  When I do this, I find
    that phrases resonater in my mind for several hours afterward.  I also
    would just turn on the TV to the French channel out of Sherbrook, just
    to have the sounds in the background.  (I can't do that any more now,
    because Lowell Cable saw fit to drop the ony foreign language channels
    -- but that's another story)  I suspect that hearing plays a very 
    large part in learning a spoken language, even before one can
    understand what's being said.  I think of there being a different
    "song" to each language, with the words and phrases following the tune.
    
    I first came on this idea when I was working in Ireland.  When I was
    first there, I was chagrined to find that I could hardly understand
    anyone!  Oh, I could understand people who were speaking directly to
    me, but background conversation, or the quick phrases from shopkeepers
    or the like might as well have been in Swahili!  But then, after I had
    been there for some months, I realized one day that I had no trouble at
    all understanding this sort of thing.
    
    So, on that theory, I'm trying to *hear* as much French as I can. 
    This, of course, is not easy in Massachusetts, USA....  I have a lesson
    once a week with a woman who is originally from Versailles, but that 
    is only 1 1/2 hrs out of the week.  So, to supplement that, I've sent
    for a taped French "magazine". for which I saw an ad in Harpers.
    This "magazine" consists of 2 hrs of taped news articles, interviews, 
    etc, (native French speakers, of course) with an accompanying transcript.
    I think this might be very helpful at my current level, since I can read 
    well enough to follow along, and at the same time hear what the words
    I'm reading *really* sound like.
    
    Anyway, I'm just immersed in all this.  I haven't read a book in
    English in months!  This is GREAT fun!
    
    -ellie

    	My daughter probably has an advantage with hearing the languages
    too. When they got the interested kids together for the first
    "beginners" class in Arabic they discovered that my daughter and
    another girl were the only ones that didn't speak it as a native
    tongue. All the others just wanted to learn to read and write. The
    local school in Valbonne is a little unusual in that it has kids from
    about 40 nationalities.
    
    	French television has an early morning news programme on Saturdays
    when they re-broadcast television news from all other countries in
    Europe (even including Russia and Ukraine) with French subtitles - a
    tip for anyone living in France and trying to learn a language.

re .3:

If you're trying to hear some more spoken French, you might try radio.
There's probably a clear channel AM station broadcasting out of Quebec
(try asking in KAOSWS::CANADA), or you can get a shortwave radio
(try PARITY::SWL_NOTES).

    re .5
    
    Yes, I have a short wave radio, and have found broadcasts in French. 
    I hadn't thought of looking for an AM Quebec station.
    
    thanks for the idea!
    
    -ellie

    Be warned that the French accent in Quebec can be distinctly different
    from the French accent in France.
    
    Nick

    re .-1
    
    Yes, I have noticed this, and I do prefer to hear "French" French
    whenever I can.  Athough I should mention that my French friend who 
    lived here for a year thought that the accent in Montreal, and on 
    the Montreal TV channel (i.e. Sherbrook) was not all that "bad".   8^) 
    
    
    -ellie

    Re .8: Most announcers, reporters, etc... on TV and radio in Quebec use
    what is known there as the "international" accent, which is simply a
    standard Parisian pronounciation, and which requires training for
    someone from Canada. It's usually only when they interview people or in
    movies or plays that you hear the various Canadian accents.
    			Denis.

    
    Here is a techno-tip that I discovered by pure chance which really
    tipped the balance for me being able to quickly understand rapidly
    spoken native French.
    
    	"Listen to TV or radio programs via STEREO headphones"
    
    This works even better if you have a very good film to watch (perhaps
    one for which you already know the plot in English).  I would recommend
    recent televised films such as the Pagnol series - (Jean de Florette,
    Manon de Source, La Gloire de mon Pere, Le Chateau de ma Mere) - truly
    wonderful insights into turn of century Provencal behaviour and
    language.
    
    If the film is recent then it has most likely been recorded in good
    quality Dolby Stereo.  Now, you might not find it on VHS cassette in
    that format, but higher quality cable broadcasts can be taped by
    enthusiasts on stereo machines, or if your local broadcaster uses a 
    system such as the Swiss did near to where I lived, you can pick up
    off-the-air stereo broadcasts. Watching and listening through a stereo
    headset has a tremendous magnifying effect on comprehension.  I have
    tried to quantify this.  I have taken difficult dialogue passages in
    Jean de Florette and I am certain that I have proved that even after
    having studied them (aurally only) at least 7 or 8 times, I understand
    them less in mono even if I have previously heard them in stereo !!
    
    The other (slightly related) tip that  I can pass on is unlikely to be
    available to most readers of this conference.
    
    	"Listen to simultaneous English/French stereo soundtracks"
    
    This is possible on broadcast systems such as the Astra satellite TV
    system in Europe.  All of the program channels have enough bandwidth
    for an encoded video signal plus at least 6 stereo audio sub-channels.
    On some programs they broadcast simultaneous stereo soundtracks. 
    Because they usually only have English, French and German, there is
    enough bandwidth remaining to do mixed French/English or English/German in 
    a left/right arrangement on the remaining stereo channels.  This is
    pretty interesting to listen to and only requires a cheap Astra system
    to get started.  It does however have a limitation of delivering only 
    one mono track of each language to one ear ( = one side of the brain?).
    
    If you want to experiment a little further, try inserting a UHF 
    demodulator into the setup and extract two stereo tracks (english
    and french) and mix those to the stereo headphones.  The whole setup
    works much better if the language that you are trying to master is the
    original for the filmtrack - so it is perfectly synchronised with 
    speakers' lips, etc. The second language should be your native language
    and does not need to be  a perfectly simultaneous translation.  This is
    quite a fascinating experience and you will be surprised at how
    incredibly easily you understand everything.
    
    /Chris/

    re .10
    
    That is fascinating!
    
    -ellie

    re .10
    
    Agreed on the last point, dubbing is a great hindrance. When I was
    in Spain I used to try to pick up more Spanish by watching television;
    but most of the television at that time (early '70s, no doubt changed
    since then) was bought in from the States and dubbed. I didn't get
    very far that way, as it's much easier to understand someone (even
    speaking one's native language) if their lips are visible (and in
    sync).
    
    Other points rang bells as I read through these replies; the `song'
    (good image Ellie, I think I take to Portuguese more than say French
    or Spanish because the `song' is more in tune with English), starting
    at the bottom (couldn't agree more - to misquote `unless ye become
    even as little children ye shall no enter into the kingdom of' another
    language), hearing as much as you can, total immersion is the thing.
    And don't forget Le Petit Prince however competent you get: it's a
    great book.
    
    One thing I do that might be worth thinking about. I don't always
    rush for a dictionary when I find a hard word. Sometimes it's obvious
    that a word is central to a paragraph, and you have to know what it
    means. But more often than not, meanings become obvious as the context
    shapes up. Leafing through dictionaries can be an arid and frustrating
    pastime (though browsing can be great fun - that's a different matter
    though); and as someone said, the glossed entry often doesn't make
    much sense anyway. So I try to avoid it as much as possible when
    first picking up a language, and look things up in a more leisurely
    way once I've got the gist.
    
    b

    re .12
    
    Yes, yes, yes!  I only go to the dictionary as a last resort, when I
    don't have a CLUE to what a passage means.  My theory is that a
    translation is only an approximation anyway, and one really learns
    words from their context.  And, again, I rarely looked up new words
    when I was learning English as a kid, and although I felt guilty at the
    time, I now think it was a benefit, and helped me appreciate nuances of
    meaning that I otherwise might not have picked up.  ('course
    theory-shmeory, the truth is that I'm just lazy...8^)   But I do love
    browsing through the dictionary.  
    
    And yes, Le Petit Prince is a wonderful story.
    
    -ellie

    Yep - another vote for Le Petit Prince.  Great Book - did you know that
    it is used in other language versions as well?  What is it about this
    story that makes it so attractive?  My wife recognised it (mistakenly)
    in an English shop as a book that she had used in Poland to learn
    English.  However it was the French version and our kids have more than
    enough exposure to French texts.  She bought it anyway and my wife
    (very little French reading skills) is reading it for the fun of it
    because she feels she knows the story having read it in English when the
    only language she spoke at the time was Polish and Russian!!
    
    Re: the use of dictionaries in French.  What sort of things do you
    really need to look up?  Vocabulary items? - simple nouns, simple
    verbs?  Verbs can be tough to find if you don't know the infinitive
    to start with but it is usually possible to work then out from
    context as .12 suggests.  Nouns are obviously very easy to look up and
    often can't possibly be worked from context as they provide a lot of
    it.
    
    My eldest child has just been taught the use of a dictionary.  Being
    at a multi-lingual school, the children are not taught to use
    language-A to language-B translation dictionaries, rather to use
    a good source language dictionary and then work out the meaning from
    the context and source language explanation.  When they need
    to get a foreign lanaguage translation, it is usually from a
    idiomatic dictionary or a phrase/quotation type dictionary.  They
    are supposed to have prepared two possible alternative meanings
    (based on their best judgement) before they resort to the dictionary
    as a means of verification/correction.
    
    By the way - this is a school that has 8 permanent language streams
    and it is common for children of age 10 to be formally reading, writing and
    taking lessons in 3 languages.  At Baccalaureat level, 3 languages
    is common, 4 a bit exceptional and 5 not unheard of.  I just wish that
    I had had the chance when I was young....

    re: a few back
    
    Yes, I wish I had a French dictionary (i.e not French/English) because
    I don't want to just think of "chat" as the French version of "cat" but
    as a word in itself.  I think going through English to figure out what
    something French means just doesn't make sense after a while.
    
    I've been eyeing such a distionary in one of the local bookshops.  But 
    the $50 price tag has kept me away for now.  Not good for those of us 
    about to get TFSO'd to be buying $50 books!
    
    -ellie

    There are student dictionaries designed for just the purpose you
    describe.  I have two paperbacks -- Spanish, not French -- that cost
    about $5 each.
    

    re .-1
    
    What publisher puts them out?  I'm not really sure how helpful a small
    dictionary would be, though.  I often find that when I do go to the
    dictionary, my small French/English dictionary does not have the word,
    and I have to go the the larger one.
    
    I wonder if anyone publishes a small dictionary that just leaves out
    all those common, everyone-knows-them-already words, and just goes for
    the one's people are less likely to know.  I've often thought this
    would be a useful sort of book.  
    
    
    -ellie

    I don't know the publisher, but one of them is under the Larrouse
    imprint, which would suggest there's a French version.
    
    I won't present a cogent, reasoned argument, but I just can't imagine
    how such a dictionary as you posit would work, or help.  What do we all
    know, cognates?  Sure, "maquina" means "machine" in Spanish, but it 
    also means "camera", just as "machine" once meant "automobile or
    motorcycle" in English.  And Spanish is full of amigos falsos, such as
    "constipado", which means "head cold".
    

    My idea is something like, take small dictionary A, and large
    dictionary B.  Subtract words in A from B and print the result.  I'm
    not saying it would be useful for everyone...  Probably not even for
    me.  I felt this way more oten when I was a teenager.  By that time I
    had read enough so that when I needed to look up a word, it was most
    likely not to be in the basic paperback dictionary.  And I used to with
    there were a dictionary I could carry with me, say, to the beach, that
    just had the *hard* words in it.   8^)
    
    A dual-language dictionary of this sort would, of course, not be for a
    "beginner" either.  I wasn't suggesting that you leave out words that
    people could guess as cognates, since they are often misleading.  I was
    just thinking that, if you have read a bit in another language, you will
    have developed a basic vocabulary.  You won't have to look up words
    that mean "him" or "dog" or "go" or "have" or "be" for instance.
    
    -e

>                                                         And I used to with
>    there were a dictionary I could carry with me, say, to the beach, that
>    just had the *hard* words in it.   8^)

At the beach you're not supposed to read stuff that *has* hard words.

    re .22
    
    You're right!  Gotta go back to stuff like "Jaws".  Welllll,
    maybe not that....    8^}
    
    -e

    Re: .22
    
    Well, I won't always know what "dog" means, even in English.   W9NCD
    gives 11 meanings, and any unabridged dictionary will fill a column or
    more with meanings of "dog".
    

    Clearly, what we need here are digital "laptop" dictionaries, to
    combine completeness with portability. Imagine being able to browse the
    unabridged OED while lounging by the pool... or to switch to a complete
    Larousse for those especially tricky passages in "L'homme qui rit"!
    
    [Anybody know what the current availability of on-line dictionaries for
    laptops is? Anything better than the equivalent of the Little Blue
    Dictionary?]
    
    -b

    And if you have to bring the digital "laptop" dictionary to the beach,
    then, well, bytes dog man.

    Re .16: Chris, I got a good laugh out of your note. But I'm obviously
    out of the riddle game as, being French, it took me only about half a
    minute to understand what the teacher meant by "Key-weigh". Just a
    question, though: is the teacher French? I wonder if a native English
    speaker would have used that word, even when talking to mainly French
    children. I also wonder how many of the non French kids brought the
    correct item, but I'm still laughing thinking of your son using a
    stuffed kiwi for that purpose. Maybe he could extend the bird's wings,
    but I seem to remember that kiwi's wings are very short... ;^)
    			Denis.

    The OED/CD is cross indexed eight ways.  I don't know them all, but
    they include 
    
    	the word
    	roots
    	authors of quotes
    	quotes
    	synonyms
    
    For my money, and they'll be getting it as soon as I can save it up,
    the OED/CD will be much superior to the printed form.
    
    There are also CDs called "Playing with French" and "Playing with
    Spanish" that I know nothing about.

    Maybe this is another way words are indexed in OED/CD, maybe it's
    a subset of the "quotes" category, but you can specify a max-min
    date for a quote - search, e.g., for all the quotes using "quote"
    as a noun, since 1950. You just couldn't do a search like that
    in hard-copy (I know this is almost a truism, because an on-line
    search is an on-line search; but you can do a hard-copy analogue
    of some kinds of on-line search, whereas one date/quote search
    would take several years' full-time reading - and so just wouldn't
    be done).
    
    b

    re. last few
    
    Yeah, the OED on line would be nothing less than great.  But I'd still
    keep my 13 volume version.  I find it aesthetically pleasing to look at
    words printed on a page.  I also am constantly skirting the edge of
    Repetitive Strain Injury territory, and sometimes wandering in, so I
    like to have things accessible other than by keyboard.
    
    Oh, I got my "French magazine" tape in the mail yesterday.  Grin, grin,
    yippee, yippee!  I haven't yet had time to read and listen at the same
    time (I read the transcript in bed last night, and listened to the tape
    on the way to work), but just hearing the tape was like being back in
    France!  
    
    I wonder how many times I can play the tape before I wear it out...8^|
    
    -ellie

    
  >>  I wonder how many times I can play the tape before I wear it out...8^|
    
	Beaucoup.

    I hope beaucoup is enough!  8^))
    
    I once wore out a tape I really loved by playing it over and over
    again.  And now it's no longer available...8^(  But that's a whole 
    "nother" story!
    
    Of course, I'll be getting one a month, so if I do wear it out,
    there'll be another on the way.  This seems like a good deal; it comes
    out to about $11 per month, i.e. $11 per one-hour tape.
    
    Di, maybe we could use the tape player available chez vous to make some
    copies?  You're welcome to one...
    
    -e

    
   >> Di, maybe we could use the tape player available chez vous to make some
   >> copies?  You're welcome to one...

	You're most welcome to try.

    re .27
    
    So what did they really want, if not a "kiwi"?
    
    	-John Bishop

    ... that it's some sort of French acronym for what my kids knew as a
    "permission slip" by which parents agree to hold the school harmless
    for any incidents like death of their kids during a field trip... :-)
    

    >>I wonder how many times I can play the tape before I wear it out...8^|
    
    >beaucoup
    
    Yup, but first it'll give you repetitive strain injury.

    Re .36: Dan, you're VERY far from the answer...
    			Denis.

    Ohwell...  So -- any hints? :-)
    

    Is it something to wear - like an anorak or cagoul (sp?)? I toyed
    with a transliterated brand-name for some navigation aid (called a
    Key Way), but rejected that as unlikely (because a teacher wouldn't
    expect everyone in the class to navigate).
    
    b

    What's "it"?  An Anorak?  A navigation device?   
    
    -e

    Yep. It's an anorak.  How did it get this name Denis?  What is
    the correct spelling?
    
    Of interest is the answer to the question about how different
    categories of people responded ;
    
    Native Speakers		Did the right thing of course
    
    Francophone (non-native)	Too proud to admit non-comprehension, used
    with aid of context		logic and context.  Got it wrong.
    
    Francophone (non-native)	First, tried dictionary, 
    little or no context	Next, (See non-francophone below)
    
    Non francophone		Also did the "right" thing
    				i.e. telephoned the teacher and asked for
    				explanation in English :-)
    
    
    Hey, I don't feel that bad.  This could have happened in an 
    English class in France with similar mix ;
    
    Teacher	: "Don't forget to bring a Mac tomorrow!"
    
    My Kid	: "Je dois amener un Mac demain"
    
    Me		: "Well you had better take the PowerBook instead of 
    		   the Classic"
    
    
    Figure that one out Denis!  :-)
    
    

    Re .43: No problem figuring it out. Some French people (admittedly not
    many of them) know that long before being a computer, a macintosh was a
    rain coat and, even before that, a member of the chief sept of Clan
    Chattan (if you didn't forget to capitalise the name, at least).
    	As for the anorak, it's a case of a brand name that came to be used
    as the item name (exact spelling is K-WAY, by the way), same as xerox,
    frigidaire or plexiglass. The brand name is the most widely known in
    France for anoraks, and I must say that I thought that with such a name
    it was originally British or American, but I now doubt it, given how
    many people don't know it in this file. I'm still laughing thinking of
    a five year old kid using a stuffed kiwi as an anorak, though.
    			Denis.

    Oh, it's a _rain-coat_!
    
    		-John Bishop

    Actually it's a parka.  The word is from the Eskimo, but, inexplicably,
    the usage is mostly British.
    
    And a keyway is the thing you slide a key into.
    

    
    Every anorak I've ever seen (or seen advertised) had one characteristic
    that has not been mentioned. They are pullovers, which is not
    necessarily true of raincoats or parkas.
    
    JP
    

    W9NCD says the original parka was a pullover and that the modern
    meaning is "pullover or jacket".
    

    But it's a usage that is specific to a small community of
    people, almost like technical language, so the dictionary definition is
    almost certain to be out of date. My 20 year old "mountain parka,"
    purchased at a highly regarded mountaineering shop in Boulder,
    Colorado, is very much not waterproof.

    And it's not a pullover, but a cotton-nylon fabric jacket with lots of
    pockets and a big hood.

    re .51
    
    When you say "not a pullover" do you mean it's not made of wool, or
    some wool-like product?  Isn't this the UK usage of pullover?  In the
    US it means something that is put on by pulling it over one's head, as
    well.  IN my LL Bean catalog, for example, there are lots of "cotton-
    nylon fabric jackets with lots of pockets and big hoods" but they are
    also "pullovers" in the sense that they are pulled on oever the head. 
    They are referred to, in this catalog, as Anoraks.
    
    
    -ellie

    Another thing I've noticed is that the (brand name == name of an item)
    instances are different  in the British Isles than they are in the US.
    In the US, notably we of course have the words "kleenex" and "Coke", much 
    to the chagrin of the manufacturers. But in Ireland, for example, it 
    surprised me when people would ask if I had a "Biro", or a "Bic" instead 
    of a pen.  
    
    And I discovered, last week, that my French teacher also calls a ball
    point pens a "Bic".  
    
    So K-Way is another example of this.  Any others?  
    
    -ellie

    	One of the classic ones is
    
    British:	Sellotape
    American:	Scotch tape
    Australian:	Durex
    
    	The last one causes either amusement or confusion in Britain, since
    there brand name (Durex) == name of item (condom).

British?  "Hoover" == vacuum cleaner

    `Hoover', in Br English, went even further than that (.55) and got
    verbed, so that someone might might say they are hoovering and
    be wielding an Electrolux vacuum cleaner. Or even a VAX, though I
    suspect that `hoovering' has to be done with an upright machine -
    a nuance that excludes even cylinder vacuum cleaners made by Hoover
    
    Lately, I've noticed more people saying `vacuuming' (meaningless to
    me until I guess about ten years ago) - probably because of
    films/videos/TV.
    
    b

    How about Frigidaire? I know it's the (only?) French word for
    refrigerator, and an US brand for same. But who was first? And do the
    French know it's a brand?
    
    I also know there's a brand of insecticide that is used as a generic
    name, even verbed, but I can't remember the name at the moment. "I'm
    going to <mumble> those roaches out of here!" Anyone?
    
    Re:.54
    >British:	Sellotape
    >American:	Scotch tape
    >Australian: Durex
    
    >The last one causes either amusement or confusion in Britain, since
    >there brand name (Durex) == name of item (condom).
    
    I can imagine the following scene in a London office supplies shop:
    
    Aussie:     ... and a roll of Durex, please.
    Shop asst.: A *roll* of *what*????


                                                  - Rik -
    

    	I used to work in a DEC office with an Aussie secretary known
    affectionately as Big Anne. Particularly when there were visitors in
    the office she would shout to a secretary at the far end "Can you toss
    us the Durex, please". She revelled in the effect it caused.

    How about Aspirin. Can't remember who came up with it first, but it was
    indeed a brand name.

    - Jim

    Bayer used aspirin (as a brand name) first.

I believe Aspirin is still a brand name in many countries.

    There is another note in this conference on generation and degeneration
    of trademarks.
    
    To revert to a linguistic topic, I understand that in Brazil, it was
    common to speak of "turning on the Canada" when going into a room,
    because a Canadian company had made the largest investment in the
    electrification of Brazil.  (They also got back half their money from
    their investment, a better record than bankers usually get when lending
    our deposited funds to governments.)
    
    -- Norman Diamond

RE .62

That reminds me of my confusion when in Toronto for a few weeks.

The company (or public body) called Ontario Hydro does not
supply water.  They supply electricity.

    Bayer trademarks include both "Aspirin" and "Heroin".  I believe they
    no longer sell the latter.
    
    Ray

    Still sold in Europe and considered the finest pain relief known.  I
    have a friend who was an English pathologist studying in America and he
    was quite bitter about the unavailability of heroin in the US
    Pharmacopia.  (I guess not all his patients were dead.)
    

Pathologists examine tissue removed from live patients, e.g. biopsies.
Many people who require biopsies also require serious pain relief.

    You may have hit upon the way to solve the drug problem, though--go
    after dealers with trademark infringement suits...