Conference thebay::joyoflex

I often use an rs-232 interface to interface two computers together so
several engineers can interface with each other.

bill

As a noun, "interface" is a wonderful word. It conjures images of soap
bubbles and crystals joined together at unusual but precise angles.

 As a verb? I am of two minds. One mind says it's morally abhorrent to
use a new and less precise word where an old and more precise word
(try "connect" and "communicate" in .1) will do. The other mind says
that there are situations in which the old words say more than is actually
the case, and there is a need for a new and less specific word.

 Damn, I can't think of a good example. For the time being, I come down
on the side of "morally abhorrent". "Interface" as a verb is a word you
use when you're in a hurry to finish a memo and don't have time to
remember or look up the correct word. Sloppy words encourage sloppy
thought.

-John

  In the example given in the first paragraph in .0, the verb appears to be
  the contraction of "to serve as interface".  In bygone years, I guess you
  might say "to liase" instead of "to interface".

  I view "to interface" as current jargon.  Whether it will become a legitimate
  verb through usage, only time will tell.

--Simon

People don't interface.  People INTERACT!!!!  Machines, software, and so on
interface.  (I guess it's a verb these days, sigh.)

							-- Nina

As an editor, I encounter far too many nouns that magically turn into
verbs when the writer cannot easily describe the specific actions s/he
has in mind.  I realize that new technology often demands new terminology,
but I resist deviations as much as possible. Why should I hasten the 
decline of "good" English?  I screw up as much as the next person (I admit
that I sometimes use "hopefully") but I try to remember the following
quote.

	"Yes, our language has changed and will continue to do so.
	However, the tendency for standards to change does not mean
	that standards cease to exist. The fact that language is like
	a river, slowly changing through the centuries, does not give
	anyone the right to throw garbage into the river."

		-- Lawrence Casler, founder of SAGE (Society for the
				    Advancement of Good English)

Steve

re .4  Only some people interact.  Many do not.

Re. 5:  good point about the right to throw garbage into the 
language.  It is changing, but let's not pollute 
it.

As a writer, I find no good excuse to use the word interface 
except when talking about RS232.  There are too many other words 
that convey my meaning more precisely -- which is also to say 
that "interface" means too many different things to have any 
precision to it.  Additionally, when used in the context of any 
sort of interpersonal relationship it makes the interaction too 
much of a mechanical one for my tastes.  

Bottom line: avoid at all costs.

Mark Mitchell
Media Communications

RE .6 -- Picky, picky!  :-)
					-- Nina

Re .4 et al.  People INTERACT.  Computers do >NOT< INTERFACE.  They INTERACT
through INTERFACES.


Cheers,
Dick

Re .3: "liaise", not "liase".  

(Sorry.  Doing this kind of thing should, but can't, be resisted.)   

Gabriel.

  Hopefully has entered the language.  I believe that since the language is a
changing entity, it should be allowed to change, but care should be given so as
to prevent corruption.  Hopefully is not a corruption, since making an adverb
from an adjective is quite acceptable.  The German has the word hoffenlich,
which would translate directly to English as hopefully, but it is usually
translated as "Let us hope."  That is a little to archaic, isn't it? I just
remember what one of my German teachers once said, "Ever since John F Kennedy
used hopefully, it has been an accepted word in the English language."  She was
a native German and did a lot of translation work here state-side for the US
goverment, and she complained about native speakers who were not capable of
speaking their own tongue, and how she knew that her grammar was better than
the better part of Americans.  She was supposed to take what they had said and
translate it into German, but she said that the people often spoke so poorly
that she would have to ask them what it was that they were trying to say.

  All of this considered, just what is wrong with using hopefully?

re: "interface"

I really don't see a problem with using it as a verb in the context of
computer discussions. I avoid using it, except semi-jokingly, outside of
this context. The same is true of "access".

Or as one friend put it, "Verbing nouns is not generally a good idea."


re: "hopefully"

Actually, "hopefully" has been in the English language for quite a long
time, but it has always meant "full of hope" (as one would expect). Its
usage as "it is to be hoped" is more recent. I often use it to mean the
latter, and I see nothing particularly wrong with it. The only alternatives
are to use "It is to be hoped" or "I hope", and there are times when those
phrases seem very clumsy, even if they are correct.

Excuse me, there is one other alternative. According to the way words are
structured in English, if we wanted a single word meaning "it is to be hoped",
it should be "hopably". Yucko.

--- jerry

Re:  # 12.

  Yucko?

Time for a new dictionary. Webster's New Collegiate (1981) lists
interface as a verb, and uses "interface a machine with a
computer" as an example.

-Rob

I hope we all agree that our mutual networking in this area has impacted us
all positively.

Hopefully, that (.-1) is the case.

Tom

I consider the verb 'to interface' an acceptable part of computer jargon
when it refers to computer hardware and software.  Also, the preposition
'to' should always be used with 'to interface'.  'To interface' is really
a synonym for 'to connect'.  One doesn't 'connect part A **with** part B',
one 'connects part A **to** part B'.  Similarly, PDP-11s do not interface
WITH VAXes, they interface TO VAXes.

'To interface' is applied to people by illiterate managers.  These sorts
'interface with' their collegues to 'work the issues' and 'obtain buy-in'
from other groups.  Those who use these phrases should be taken out back
and shot.

--PSW

    > 'To interface' is applied to people by illiterate managers.
    
    I heard a perfect rejoinder to the above usage.... Should an
    illiterate manager use 'interface' while referring to you, 
    smile and reply, "Okay.  Your face or mine?"
    
    					Andrew 

    I've thought that 'interface' implied that the people you were talking
    to were hard to get along with. I used to use 'interface' this way
    until people started having allergic reactions to it. It's difficult to
    have a rational discussion when the nerve impulses aren't getting past
    the spinal cord. Then when you try to explain that this emotional
    reaction means that some sort of interface is needed -- well, I guess
    you get the idea. :-)
    
    	Jon

    	While I imagine that there are countless cases of nouns being
    used as verbs, what about the converse -- verbs being used in the
    nominal form?  I was shocked as I was proof-reading one of my own
    articles to find that I referred to doing "an install" of a product,
    rather than an installation.  How many times to we refer to doing
    "a compile" of some software?
    
    	What other cases are there where we commonly use verbs as nouns?
    
    	Frank   8-|)

An interrupt.

    sounds to me like what you just described (verb used as noun) is
    quite common and is sometimes referred to as a gerund.
    
    p.s.  I would think that gerunds do not have to end in "-ing". 
    Can anyone concur?
    
    -Kurt*

    Don't you mean "can anybody make a concur"?
    
    	John
    

      Once upon a time, in a city far, far away, I worked in a COBOL
      shop.  I'll give you an assure that it is possible to do an
      ADD, a SUBTRACT, a READ, a WRITE, a COMPUTE, a GO TO, and even
      a PERFORM UNTIL.
      
      Now, I'll do a sign off.
      
      Dave C.

I've heard of someone who actually said, "I'll have to AWARE John to that
problem". 

Yuck!

-- Sam

    I am a late commer to this notes file and I'm fighting an up-hill
    battle to bring myself up to date (w/o set seen-ing it all). After
    an hour or so I got to this topic. BTW its great to see topics going
    on for two years and entering the third.
    
    Interface is a fascinating word for me so I would like to reopen
    for a moment the issue.
    
    I understand Inter-face as a surface between two different media
    (water and air, computer and terminal, calling and called routine).
    
    To interface is a very complex action which comprises between others
    	
    	providing a buffer (for speed of speach differencec)
    	providing a translation
    	preventing direct interaction 
    
    e.g.
        A System Analyst is interfacing between the User and the
        Programmer 
    
    	A Mariage consultant is interfacing between husband and wife
    
    	The US Government tries to interface between Israel and the
   	Arab States
    
    Yonel
    
    P(ost) S(criptum) 
    
    	Sorry for my not so great English but it is not my "mother tongue"
    
    Y
    
    
    
    

    Help me out on this one, please.  Last night, in looking over my
    revised resume, I stumbled on the use of "interface" as a verb,
    in the context of "interfaced with customer and sub-contract vendors".
    
    Too many years as a Take-a-Nickel Riter having dried up my creative
    juices, I am at a loss for a better (single) word.  Granted that
    the person reading my resume may, in fact, be an illiterate technocrat,
    should I just STET?

    My Roget's predates the emergence of this veroun (verb turned into
    noun).  Any and all suggestions welcome.
        

    
    RE: .28  "liaise"
    
    Too hard to spell.  Besides, it's too reminiscent of Jimmy Carter's
    State of the Nation address.
    

    Re: .27
    
    worked with
    
    interacted with
    
    established (or developed) effective working relationships with
    
    formed an interface with
    
    
    Bernie

    Re: .27
    
    "got in bed with"
    
    Stephen 
    (Air Force officer in a previous life)

	"Acted as liaison between ..."

I was going to mention that originally, but he *did* ask for a single
word.

-- Sam

p.s. 	What does "STET" mean?

    Re: .27
    
    What's wrong with saying that you "worked closely with customer and
    sub-contract vendors" or that you "communicated with customers...."?

    I'm a proponent of the KISS philosophy myself.
    

    Re: .32:
    
>   p.s. 	What does "STET" mean?

    Stet is a proof reader's term directing that text marked for deletion
    be retained.  It comes from Latin and can be translated as "let it
    stand."

  STET means "let it stand."  It is normally used in one of two ways: 1)
  by a document reviewer who marks up a listing with comments and then
  changes his or her mind about them, and 2) by a document writer who has
  no intention of changing the text in the way suggested.

  JP

    "Worked with" sounds best to me in most cases. 
    
    When I see a resume full of "interfaced with," "acted as liaison," 
    etc., I wonder whether the person can write clear, simple, lucid 
    English.
    
    "Stet" comes from the Latin "stare" (rhymes with "rarer"), and means
    "let it stand."
    
    Originally it was a proofreader's mark (it still is) and means to
    retain a word or phrase that is marked for deletion or correction.
    (The crossed-out phrase to be retained is marked with dots underneath
    it.)
    
    Now it is a generally used by almost anyone making corrections in
    almost anything.
     
    See any reference book (most dictionaries) for examples of 
    proofreaders' marks.
    
    -bs

    Why are there three similar explanations of STET in previous responses?
    And how do you get 'stare' to rhyme with 'rarer'?  (If you're a
    French Canadian, I forgive you :-)
    

    You pronounce it  STAIR-UH (roughly). Jeff, it's not French Canadian;
    it's New Hampsha.
       
    Please forgive me anyway.
    
    -bs

    Well, I pronounce it STAR-RAY.  Let's ask a Roman the proper way
    :-)

    I, too, learned it as STAR-AY, but I thought that it was Canadian -- an
    inquisitive reply to the remark, "Venus is the brightest star in the
    sky." :-)
    
    	Jon 

    Let's call interface what it really is -
    
    mutual oral sex - and send the word over to the
    
    human relations conference

    My father, who is a retired electrical engineer, recalls that
    "interface" was in use as a verb in Britain at least 40 years ago.
    
    Re .11: What is "the better part of Americans"? Is it the part that
    tastes best?
    
    Re .12: "full of hope" should be "hopefull", not "hopefully".
    
    Re .36 - .40: I concur with .39, .40, as far as Latin is taught
    in English schools.

    P.S. "interface" is derived (I nearly wrote "derives", but that
    looks a bit off) from the Latin "inter" (between) and "facere" (to
    do). Thus it has a verb component.

    Re: .-1

    Well now try this one !  Reading through some documents (in DEC,
    where else ?) I came across a new verb :-
    
    				to architect
    
    Used in the context  "xyz is to be architected in to the existing
    product ... ".   Or should this be in functionality note ?
    
    Yours architecturally,
    

    re .45;

    I've seen it too! I'm still trying to forget!

  While I do not agree with the proposition that "any noun can be verbed,"
  I'm at a loss to come up with another verb that describes the actions
  of an architect.  "Design" does not quite fill the bill because it is
  alleged that the designer's job is not quite the same as that of the
  architect.  So what can be done?

  JP

    Architect: 1) One who designs and supervises the construction of
    buildings or other large structures. 2) Any planner or deviser.
    (American Heritage Dictionary) 
    
    1) implies that "design" is indeed the verb for what an architect does.
    ("Other large structures" seems fairly descriptive of hardware and
    software.) 
    
    2) implies that "plan" and "devise" are other verbs that describe
    what an architect does. Are they acceptable substitutes for
    "architect"? 
    
    					Val

    In concept, .48 is right; the trouble is that the majority of DIGITAL
    architects -- the software architects, anyay -- do not appear to be
    doing any aspect of this job.  They seem to be expected to provide
    something on the order of guidelines or templates to be used by others
    when they design particular large structures.  Sometimes it seems
    almost like they're trying to give words to Platonic ideals floating in
    the sky above ZK2.  But they aren't concerned with building or
    supervising the building of any particular structure, whether building
    or module. 

    So since 'architect' is not the correct word in the first place,
    it's no surprise that we need to invent a new verb to cover what
    it is that they don't do!
    
    --bonnie, getting snide in her old age

    How about 'implement' as an intransitive verb:
    
    From a press release for a CASE [Computer Aided Software Engineering
    - but that's one for the oxymoron note] product:
    
    "...The code is quite robust and it implemented quite cleanly..."

    ". . . MOLE [an AI] product is able to diambiguate and under-specified
    knowledge base . . ."
    
    						-- from an abstract
    						   describing MOLE,
    						   a `tenacious 
    						   knowledge-acquisition
    						   tool
    
    	I assume there should have been a [sic] in there.  To my 
    	knowledge, there is no such word as `diambiguate'.  Of 
    	course I've been using `disambiguate' for years.

    
"Account managers are being goaled to bring the senior management from
every strategic account"
    
    
    						from a writeup on
    						DECworld '87
    
    	that's the passive voice, now try the active.  It seems to
    	be a verb that resists having a subject    

    Can they mean 'gaoled'? I thought everyone spelt it 'jailed' nowadays.
    But the only object of the verb 'to gaol' has to be the person
    locked up. 'Account managers are being gaoled' would make sense.
    Maybe there's a _sic_ missing here too.
    
    Confused

    RE: .51
    
    	Now conjugate "being goaled"
    
    	??? be goaled
    	??? being goaled
    	??? been goaled
    
    				Ya, Nay, Indiffernet??
    
    				/^PiT^\

    Generally if I can't find a word for something it's because my
    thinking is not precise enough. If you try to reduce what you do
    to its most important element, you might be able to find an existing
    word. "Create," "invent," and "plan" are possibilities. 
    
    Eileen
        
    
     
    
    
    
    

Perhaps it's just a typo: "being goaded ..."

    Re:  To be goaled
    
    Speaking of things managers are doing these days, how 'bout "growing"
    our revenue, unit size, employees, etc.                              
    
    Example:  In the next quarter, we plan to grow our revenues by 60%.
    
    Why does this bother me so much?
    
    Susan

    re .-1 : The opposite is 'downsizing'.  
    
    "IBM is downsizing its staff levels"  (SACKING)
    
    re .0 (the original topic), everyone knows that interface is the
    material placed between two layers of cloth in dress-making!

    Re .56
    
    > In the next quarter, we plan to grow our revenues by 60%.
    
    In Japanese English:
    
      In the next quarter, we will 60% revenue up.

    Or in the past tense:
    
      Last quarter, our revenue up was 60%.    
    "Up" has quite a lot of meanings, as a verb or noun.  Haven't seen it
     used as an adverb recently.

    By the way, is _algorithm_ a method of birth control when you're
    having unprotected interface?

    I'm surprised that this note hasn't been touched (or typed upon) for
    nigh on three years. What's happened ? Has the big bad `LETS ALL USE
    BAD ENGLISH AND NOT GIVE A TOSS WHO UNDERSTANDS IT' machine rolled over
    you all - has everyone submitted to their fate and surrendered to the
    gramatically incorrect army.
    
    I hate interface, functionality, human resources, etc. and I think, by
    the looks of things, I now stand alone...........
    

>>    I hate interface, functionality, human resources, etc. and I think, by
>>    the looks of things, I now stand alone...........

	Nope.  If I hear "functionality" many more times, I might
	jump out a window.  Of course, I'll have to find a building
	where the windows open... 8^|

	Di
    

    Let's all use bad English and not give a toss who understands it.
    

    I'd have thought OSHA would mandate that windows in the workplace must
    prevent autodefenestration (giving oneself a toss) by grammatically
    infuriated workers.  Maybe the window manufacturers just haven't been
    able to implement that functionality, though.

    Word is that the autodefenestration_prevention feature was successfully
    Betaized, but then the TFSO process decomitted the buy-in and the
    entire group was rightsized.
    

    I suppose that .64 explains the inability to utilize the new feature.
                                                 ^

    Re .60
    
    >Has the big bad `LETS ALL USE
    >BAD ENGLISH AND NOT GIVE A TOSS WHO UNDERSTANDS IT' machine rolled over
    >you all - has everyone submitted to their fate and surrendered to the
    >gramatically incorrect army.
    
    It hasn't rolled over me.  I'll be glad to flame back instead of
    surrendering.  The machine has rolled over you.  Don't you know that
    "LET'S" needs an apostrophe?  Don't you know that questions should be
    punctuated with question marks?  Interyerface, dude.

    Well,
    
    You can count me in the "giving a toss" brigade.  I get indignant every
    time I see English used badly or bad English used.  However, I am
    trying to learn to supress (=internalise B.E.) the indignation in line
    with the "Let's try not to impose our prejudices on others" philosophy.
    
    I just come to this conference to get a view from the high moral ground
    :o)
    
    Jon

seen in a commercial last night for some sort of food product:

"XXXX is more (some English adjective) and less FATABLE"

						^^^^^^^


God help us...

--Angela

    Greek heroes, Romantic poets, and Rock stars are all fatable.  Mama
    Cass's ham sandwich might be considered fatable, fatal, and fattening.
    And probably both feted and fetid by now.
    
    Ray

    Phat, Ray, phat.