Conference thebay::joyoflex

    I as in Weird.
    
    Your L as in Calm is bogus.  The word isn't pronounced "kahm" except in
    certain regional dialects, notably that of New England.
    
    -dick

>    I as in Weird.

or receive

And speaking of New England regional dialects, how about

	R as in Harvard Yard

And one more, how about Y as in

Clay

    >Your L as in Calm is bogus.  The word isn't pronounced "kahm" except in
    >certain regional dialects, notably that of New England.
    
    The Pocket Oxford I have also uses the "kahm" pronunciation.

    As far as vowels are concerned -- I'm trying to find examples where
    losing the silent vowel doesn't change the pronunciation -- for
    example, "aisle," "sleight," and "phoenix."  
    
    					andrew

	I am wichoo, Richard.  I'm from New England, and I pronounce
	the "l" (slightly) in "calm".  I was going to point it out
	too, until I looked in my dictionary. 
	
	Seems to me that something like "talk" is perhaps a better
	entry.

	- diane

>>    As far as vowels are concerned -- I'm trying to find examples where
>>    losing the silent vowel doesn't change the pronunciation -- for
>>    example, "aisle," "sleight," and "phoenix."  

	how about "maize" for "I" then?


	-diane

    L as is Talk is superior; there's no doubt the "l" is silent, there.
    
    I as in Maize is perfect -- thanks!

	>> S as in Chablis
	>> T as in Valet
	>> X as in Faux
	>> Z as in Chez

	If you are considering words of French origin such as these valid
	for this exercise, I would assume that "sommelier" would then
	be valid for "R".

	As an aside, "often" is another good one for "T", methinks.


	-diane

	er, or "hasten" is maybe even better.

	;> (don't mind me - this is fun)

	-diane

    >	>> S as in Chablis
    >	>> T as in Valet
    >	>> X as in Faux
    >	>> Z as in Chez
    >
    >	If you are considering words of French origin such as these valid
    >	for this exercise, I would assume that "sommelier" would then
    >	be valid for "R".

    	I tried to choose words that are fairly familiar in the US,
        despite their being of French origin.  
    
    >	As an aside, "often" is another good one for "T", methinks.
    	
    	I like it -- you're good at this!
    

	The problem with "Chablis" is that it's a region, and unless
	I'm mistaken, it's always capitalized.  Unless you don't
	care about that.  Otherwise, you could use "chamois", for instance.

    	If you are using French words (or even English words) you need to
    be a little careful about the dialect. I would certainly pronounce the
    "t" in "hasten" or "often", and the local French dialect pronounces
    most of the final letters of words that the Parisians miss off. I
    haven't heard a local pronounce "chamois", though I might have done -
    the local hunters get them, so they would be more likely to say the
    word than a Parisian. I will listen carefully. The final "s" in the
    local place name "Vallauris" is certainly pronounced.

    I have never heard the "t" in "hasten" ever pronounced.

					andrew

Then you should hasten to call M. Monahan.  His DTN is 828-5120.

    D as in Leaped
    F as in Of
    J as in San Jose
    Q as in Acquire
    U as in Colour
    Y as in Knotty

    
    I thought it was P as in Bath

    
    And, for the Russians among us, B as in Viktor.

    Re the t in often...  Mr Monahan must miss the humour of the dialogue
    between the Pirate King and Major General Stanley.

    T as in Listen

    I wonder: should abbreviations count?  If yes, then:
    
    		R as in Mrs.

    
    Updating .0 with suggestions to date:
    
            A as in Aisle               N as in Column
            B as in Doubt               O as in Phoenix
            C as in Scene               P as in Pneumatic
            D as in Adjourn             Q
            E as in Sleight             R
            F                           S as in Chamois
            G as in Reign               T as in Valet, Hasten
            H as in Ghoul               U as in Tongue
            I as in Maize               V
            J                           W as in Wright
            K as in Knight              X as in Faux
            L as in Talk                Y as in Clay
            M as in Mnemonic            Z as in Chez
    
    Though I'd substitute wringer for the more proper Wright.
    
    Re .18
    
>    D as in Leaped
>    F as in Of
>    J as in San Jose
>    Q as in Acquire
>    U as in Colour
>    Y as in Knotty
    
    Other than the u in colour, wouldn't these all better qualify as
    odd letter pronunciations, rather than silent?  And in the case of
    "q", it's not even that odd.
    
    The best "j" I can think of is a Proper noun - Jung (the psychologist),
    but even that "j" isn't quite silent.
    
    Joe

    Using wright is perfectly acceptable.  A wright is someone who makes
    something - a wheelwright, a shipwright...

    
    You might want to talk to a speaker of Dutch in your search for a
    silent "j." Dutch has an "ij" construction that is pronounced like an
    English "long i".
    
    I think "rijstaffel" might be such a word but I'm not sure of the
    spelling. It means "rice table" and refers to a wonderful collection
    of small dishes that make up a very large meal (urp).
    
    JP

    Rijstaffel (sp?) might work -- I enjoyed a rijstaffel many years
    ago in Aruba (once a Dutch colony).       
    
    					andrew

    Dutch rijstaffel, not to be confused with Deutsch Reichstaffel...

Ehm, it's _rijsttafel_  from rijst (rice) and tafel (table). Very palatable
indeed, if you don't object to the massive amounts of sambal (chili paste) in
most of the components.

But I doubt if one would call the "j" in the "ij" contraction silent. It's a 
kind of ligature, creating a new vowel which comes (in our alphabet) between 
"x" and "z". And the long-i isn't the right pronunciation. It's more like the 
"ey" sound as in "whey" (cheese by-product), trimming the leading "e" a little.

If we allow "V" as in "Viktor", then how about "J" as in "Rioja"?
                                                        
                                                  - Rik -

    Rik, my "B as in Viktor" was really an inside  joke based on the fact
    that the Cyrillic letter that is pronounced as V in Russian looks
    exactly like a Latin B.
    
    An old friend of mine, a Pole named Anatol Turecki, who had flown for
    the RAF in WWII, also spoke Russian fluently.  In the '70s we worked
    together ata  computer company in Florida.  When we were debugging
    wire-wrapped logic boards, Tol would sometimes call out a pin as, for
    example, 3V11 when the chip in question was really 3B.  We all had a
    good time with the joke, speaking the words as "B as in Biktor."
    
    -dick

Ah, I thought the "Russian V" was based on its pronunciation, more like our "W" 
with a hint of "B" in it...

But how about (the other way around in this case) "J" as in "Some roman word 
which obviously has no 'J', but does have a 'J' sound"? Dick?
                                                        
                                                  - Rik -

>But how about (the other way around in this case) "J" as in "Some roman word 
>which obviously has no 'J', but does have a 'J' sound"? Dick?
    
    Any word that uses a soft "g" -- Edge, fudge, germane, gemstone...

    J as in junker
    
    A young German noble or squire

    >J as in junker
    
    	"Junker" is pronounced "yoonker" (sorta) -- while the "J"
    	sound isn't the traditional "dg," as in "jam," it's definitely
    	pronounced aloud.
    
    	If you're looking to create a string like "F as in tough" then
    	please create a new string -- don't muck this one up.

'r' as in Worcester

					I

    If you're allowing foreign words, I'd suggest stretching a point
    for V and J as in eight [viij]. I first thought of `six' but
    that way madness lay [because of the i and the x].
    
    b

    No, I'd prefer not including foreign words.  The words I've listed have
    been fully absorbed into English. 
    
    This absorption is one of the glories of the English language: very
    often, it simply takes the word from the foreign language, rather than
    coining a new one.  A recent example: karaoke.
    
    					andrew

 >>   No, I'd prefer not including foreign words.  The words I've listed have
 >>   been fully absorbed into English. 

	How are you defining "fully absorbed"?  If, by that, you mean
	that they're listed in English language dictionaries, then
	"sommelier" would do for "R".  Or does the entire population,
	including those who don't drink wine, have to know what it 
	means, on top of that?  ;>

   >	How are you defining "fully absorbed"?  If, by that, you mean
   >	that they're listed in English language dictionaries, then
   >	"sommelier" would do for "R".  Or does the entire population,
   >	including those who don't drink wine, have to know what it 
   >	means, on top of that?  ;>
   
   More like the latter.  I've seen "faux" in K-Mart ads, and most
   Americans would recognize "chez," especially when associated with
   a restaurant.  I doubt "sommelier" would be recognized by most
   Americans.  (Of course, many of those same Americans might have
   trouble with "mnemonic" or "wright."
   
   Yes, I'm being a bit arbitrary, but I'm trying to find words that are 
   as common as possible.
   
   					andrew

    #ifdef RATHOLE
    
    .40>This absorption is one of the glories of the English language: very
    .40>often, it simply takes the word from the foreign language, rather than
    .40>coining a new one.  A recent example: karaoke.
    
    That's less than half of a recent example.  One of the glories of the
    Japanese language is that very often, it simply takes the word from the
    foreign language, rather than coining a new one, though often it
    truncates the word that it's taking.  Example:  the "oke" part of
    "karaoke", a truncation of the English word that sounds like okestra.
    So English copied it back, and copied "kara" (empty) along with it.
    
    #else
    
    Semantics error detected, core dumped.
    
    #endif

    Interesting!  I didn't know that.
    
    Of course, karaoke means more than "empty orchestra."  
    
    					andrew

    >Of course, karaoke means more than "empty orchestra."
    
    Not really, at least not in Japanese.  It is an orchestra with
    no singer.  In order to fill it up, a singer has to accompany it.
    Of course it is assumed that the orchestra is recorded and the
    singer is live, rather than the other way around :-)
    
    Some postings in soc.culture.japan a few years ago gave me the
    impression that karaoke has been abused or polluted in the U.S.,
    so maybe the English word will transide to a meaning that does
    not exist in the original Japlish phrase :-)
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    Orchestras don't have singers.  Besides, empty orchestra doesn't 
    convey the complete action: that is, where a singer supplies the 
    vocal track for the piece.
    
    The connotation may convey the complete meaning, but the words,
    by themselves, don't.

    >Orchestras don't have singers.
    
    And hands don't have swords.  An empty hand (karate) is one that
    does not have a sword or other weapon.  I guess the word "kara"
    is not quite identical to the word "empty", and the approximate
    translation is rather normal as approximate equivalences go
    among different languages.
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    Re .46 & .47:
    
    It strikes me as very oriental to attach significance to the concept
    "empty" in places where a westerner would not.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Re. "empty" places:
    
    The old USSR and the USA spent billions competing to get there.

	Andrew, in thinking about the "l" again, I was wondering if
	"talk" is really valid.  The "l" changes the vowel sound, so
	do you consider that not being "pronounced"?  If it's supposed
	to have no effect on the sound, then "halve" is better.

	- diane

    	In every example that I can think of where "al" has the "l" not
    pronounced ("almond" would be another example) it lengthens the "a".
    That includes "talk" and "halve", but maybe this is a matter of
    dialect. I certainly don't pronounce "halve" and "have" the same way.

    Updated list:
    
    	A as in Aisle   	    N as in Column
    	B as in Doubt               O as in Phoenix
    	C as in Scene               P as in Pneumatic
    	D as in Adjourn             Q
    	E as in Sleight             R
    	F                           S as in Chamois
    	G as in Reign               T as in Listen
    	H as in Ghoul               U as in Tongue
    	I as in Maize               V
    	J                           W as in Wright
    	K as in Knight              X as in Faux
    	L as in Halve               Y
    	M as in Mnemonic            Z as in Chez
    
    

    >> I certainly don't pronounce "halve" and "have" the same way.

	If you look at an English language dictionary, I believe 
	you'll see that they're pronounced the same way.  If Andrew
	can't go by that, he'll never be able to compile a list.

    If we go by the dictinoary, then "Calm" is perfectly acceptable.
    
    I suspect that for the gaps, there are no common (or even uncommon)
    English words with appropriate silent letters.  Suggestions like
    "Clay" and "riijstaffel" (sp) don't work -- for me -- because they
    are diphthongs.  
    
    Nevertheless, I'm still accepting candidates.
    
    					andrew

 >>   If we go by the dictinoary, then "Calm" is perfectly acceptable.

     yes, except that it wouldn't be pronounced the same way
     without the "l".  you haven't answered as to whether or not
     that matters, but i assume it does since you changed the list
     to include "halve".

    No, I'm not trying to only choose words whose pronunciation wouldn't
    change with the elimination of the silent letter; when I can find words
    like that, it's an added bonus.  "Calm" or "Palm" would work for me.
    
    (BTW: in my neck of the woods, "Have" and "Halve" are pronounced
    differently).
    
    					andrew

	okay, as you said before, you're being a bit arbitrary, so
	i'll give up now.  8^)  whatever.

	L as in colonel

-stephen

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==> language/english/pronunciation/silent.letter.p <==
For each letter, what word contains that letter silent?

==> language/english/pronunciation/silent.letter.s <==
aisle
comb
indict
handsome
twitched
halfpenny
gnome
myrrh
business
marijuana
knock
talk
mnemonic
autumn
people
psyche
cinqcents
forecastle
viscount
hautboy
plaque
fivepence
write
tableaux
prayer
rendezvous
****
Unless noted otherwise, all words occur in Webster's Third New International
Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, Springfield, MA, 1961.

==> language/english/pronunciation/silent.most.p <==
What word has the most silent letters in a row?

==> language/english/pronunciation/silent.most.s <==
BROUGHAM (4, UGHA)
  for each letter  AISLE, COMB, INDICT,
   HANDSOME, TWITCHED, HALFPENNY, GNOME, MYRRH, BUSINESS, MARIJUANA, KNOCK,
   TALK, MNEMONIC, AUTUMN, PEOPLE, PSYCHE, CINQCENTS, FORECASTLE, VISCOUNT,
   HAUTBOY, PLAQUE, FIVEPENCE, WRITE, TABLEAUX, PRAYER, RENDEZVOUS
  homophones, for each letter  O(A)R, LAM(B), S(C)ENT,
   LE(D)GER, DO(E), WAF(F), REI(G)N, (H)OUR, WA(I)VE, HAJ(J)I, (K)NOT, HA(L)VE,
   PRIM(M)ER, DAM(N), J(O)UST, (P)SALTER, ?, CAR(R)IES, (S)CENT, TARO(T),
   B(U)Y, ?, T(W)O, ?, RE(Y), BIZ(Z)
****
Unless noted otherwise, all words occur in Webster's Third New International
Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, Springfield, MA, 1961.
    

        f as in fnord (see 396.1429)
        
        Dan

    	Halve and have are given different pronunciations in my dictionary.

  >>  	Halve and have are given different pronunciations in my dictionary.

	American Heritage lists two ways of pronouncing "halve", the
	preferred being the same as that of "have".
	Neither of them includes the "l".

    Y as in pay or play or pray or say or tray...

    To me, AY seems nothing more than a variant of AI -- for vowels
    I'd like to find a homophone like (A)ISLE -- unfortunately, in
    the earlier list pulled in from the 'Net, the example used RE(Y).
    
    I've never heard of REY, despite its purported listing in the
    dictionary.

    re: .62
    	I was using an English dictionary. It only listed one phonetic
    transcription each for "have" and "halve", and they were different. I
    have been trying to imagine the two words pronounced with a Boston
    accent.

    Marjoribanks is pronounced Marshbanks, so does this deal with 'j'?

    R as in Worcester  (English pronunciation is "Wooster")
              ^
    
    Steve

    That's a double-barrelled one, Steve.  The actual pronunciation of that
    name is closer to Woosteh, so the R is silent twice.

    If possible, I'd like to avoid proper nouns -- the spelling rules
    are often different for names...

    However:  R as is Worsted works!  Thanks for the Worcester clue!

My DEC-issued dictionary has two pronunciations for worsted.  The second
has /r/ in it.

    I've heard it pronounced both ways myself.  However, at this point,
    I may have to be a tad more flexible, or I'll never fill in the few
    remaining blanks.
    					andrew

    AHD lists woos'tid as the first pronunciation for worsted, thus giving
    it their nod as being preferred.  Go for it, Andrew.
    
    -dick

    I've always thought - well, for as long as I've known the word
    `worsted' meaning a kind of cloth - that there were two pronunciations:
    woostid (the cloth) and werstid (got the better of). I've never heard
    either pronunciation in the other sense; sheltered life over here, I
    guess.
    
    If you don't like Y in -ay words, Andrew, what about `mayor' - this was
    sparked off by the Internet list posted a while back: I didn't like
    `prayer' (although I know of music that requires it to be _sung_ as
    pray_er_) but it got me thinking.
    
    b

    I'm not comfortable with prayer (or mayor, either) -- there *is*
    a consonantal "y" sound in both words...

    If cla(y) doesn't work what about ke(y)? - same problem?

    Most <vowel>Y combinations could have <vowel>I substituted,
    and I'd rather avoid these combinations if possible.
    
    I've tried to avoid "obvious" silent letters, like this:
    
    		E as in Sate
    
    While the E *is* silent, its presence changes the A sound.
    This effect is more common with vowels, so I try to be more
    discriminating with the vowels and semi-vowels.
    
    					andrew

    Is "payed" a valid alternative spelling of this word?
    I seem to recall that some verb of this sort is allowed to past
    in this form although it usually doesn't.
    
    Unfortunately uniquely's y speaks.  Even university has
    no y's dumb.

    Just re-reading my first post here - Note 428, and spotted this one:
    
    		Eyrie
    
    A silent "y"!
    
    Steve

    Re .78
    
    > Is "payed" a valid alternative spelling of this word?
    
    I don't think so, but "played" should certainly work.

    	Now it is hinted, "plaid" should give you a silent "i".

    G'day.
     (how about the oo in G'day? )
    
    re .78
    
    'Payed' would be the spelling of the past tense of 'to pay' in the form
    to pay out a rope (naut) 
           would it not?
    
    
    derek

    Re .83
    
    > 'Payed' would be the spelling of the past tense of 'to pay' in the form
    > to pay out a rope (naut)
    >        would it not?
    
    Nope.  It's still "paid."
    
    -dick

    >> to pay out a rope (naut)
    >>        would it not?
    
    >Nope.  It's still "paid."
    
    Aw, how could any Lexistentialist pass up an opportunity like this:
    
     Nope, it would naut.

    > Nope, it would naut.
    
    That's "knot."

    Can we put paid to this rop-- string?
    
    						Ann B.

    Naw, let's string it along a bit longer...

    G'day,
    
     This is getting off the mark and into the deeps. I am still able to
    fathom it out, though - but here am I, swinging the lead, as we, by and
    large, suffer landlubbers to come to the rhumb line, keelhaul the devil
    and get caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.
    
    Being winter here, it's cold enough to freeze the proverbial...
    so I'll splice the mainbrace and up-totters.
    
    Bosun 

    
    re: .-1
    
    >(Dick would know which one - not just any old bit).
    
    With bait like this, I'm sure dick will bight.
    
    JP

    Re .91
    
    Oh, if I must...
    
    It's not actually a bit, Bob, it's a bitt.  The bitter end is the
    inboard end of a ship's anchor cable, and it's called that because it
    is sometimes secured to a bitt on deck as a backup for the capstan
    ratchet after the anchor is dropped.
    
    You were right, John.  Dick bit.

Salmon for l.

(although I did have a roommate once who pronounced it like the first 2
syllables of "salmonella".  He also pronounced "gee" with a hard "g"
and this was a favorite expression of his.  Drove me nuts.)

-Mike

    there's (or was) a French car made by Darracq; the q is certainly
    silent. It's a proper name, however...
    
    
    How about "q as in jacquard" ?  The Concise Oxford Dictionary spells it
    with a capital J, however.
    
    q as in jacquerie ? (not in the COD)

    In .52 you have "C as in Scene"; however, my contention is that it's
    the S that's silent, not the C !!          :-)
    

Re .94:

<    q as in jacquerie ? (not in the COD)

That's a fascinating word -- Jaquier(y), Jacquier(y) are common names 
in French Switzerland, but I never imagined that there was a word 
(with a meaning, no less) like them.  What does it mean?

(Another red herring.)

    The NSOED has jacquard with an upper-case j, so that's one possibility.
    
    It also has jacquerie and defines it as the revolt of the peasants of
    northern France against the nobles in 1357-8; and any popular rising of
    the peasantry.

    OK, here's a challenge for the regular fans...
    
    How well can we do at constructing a silent alaphabet where the silent
    letter is the first letter?  My hope would be to replace the
    International Radio Code words (if that's their proper name).
    
    This arose from a game my 4 year old son invented at his playgroup
    after I'd explained the concept of silent letters.  Oh what a tangled
    web we weave.
    
    Here's what I've had time to do this morning.  Please feel free to add
    liberally (I guess half a dozen examples per letter will do):
    
    A as in aisle, aeon
    B as in
    C as in
    D as in
    E as in
    F as in
    G as in
    H as in hour
    I as in
    J as in Jose (pronounced ho-zay)
    K as in knight, knee
    L as in
    M as in mnemonic
    N as in 
    O as in
    P as in ptarmigan, pteranodon, physics, 
    Q as in Quixote (pronounced key-ho-tay of course)
    R as in
    S as in
    T as in Tchaikovsky
    U as in
    V as in
    W as in whole, wright, wrong
    X as in
    Y as in
    Z as in
    
    Jon

    C as in czar

    E as in eunuchs

    G as in gnome

    L as in llama (? I say "yama" but American Heritage says "lama")

    O as in oenophile, one

>    L as in llama (? I say "yama" but American Heritage says "lama")
        
        No, it is the second 'l' that is silent there.
        
        Dan

    Many of the replies in 483.* and 803.* address this issue (interleaved
    with a bunch of other stuff of course).

    Re .100, .101: Llama. None of these two l's is silent. It's simply
    that in Spanish the double l is considered as one letter, which is
    not pronounced the same way as the single l. Other combinations of two
    letters are considered as a single letter in Spanish (e. g. ch) and all
    these combinations have a separate specific entry in Spanish
    dictionnaries.
    			Denis.

    Re .103
    
    > these combinations have a separate specific entry in Spanish
    > dictionnaries.
    
    Not anymore.  It was recently decided to abolish the separate entries
    and sort the double-letter combinations in with all the usual single
    letters.  Why?  Primarily because of computers and the oddities of such
    special sorting.

B as in debt and doubt

C as in luck

D as in Bundt

G as in impugn and reign

P as in ptarmigan

CE as in Leicester and Worcester  ;^)

R as in cars in Boston            ;^)

Art

    Re .99
    
    Dick, you have a good point about J for Jose and Q for Quixote.  Can
    you suggest appropriate replacements?
    
    Re .100 
    
    Bill (?) thanks for the suggestions but I don't think I can accept
    llama because I know _I_ pronounce it with a clear l (I'd have to go
    along with American Heritage and Chambers).
    
    Re .102
    
    Norman, thanks for the pointers but the vast majority of the incidences
    here are of silent letters _within_ the words rather than as the first
    letter.  The point is that my son has learned his alphabet (in fact the
    Dr Seuss alphabet as well (A is for Aunt Annie's Alligator)) and wants
    to have the fun of words where the _first_ letter is silent.
    
    Good work team - keep it up....
    
    Jon
    
        A as in aisle, aeon
        B as in
        C as in czar, charlatan
        D as in
        E as in eunuch (not sure if I can use this with my 4 year old son)
        F as in
        G as in gnome
        H as in hour
        I as in
        J as in Jose (pronounced ho-zay), Jugoslavia
        K as in knight, knee
        L as in
        M as in mnemonic
        N as in
        O as in oenophile, one, Oedipus
        P as in ptarmigan, pteranodon, physics,
        Q as in Quixote (pronounced key-ho-tay of course)
        R as in
        S as in
        T as in Tchaikovsky
        U as in
        V as in
        W as in whole, wright, wrong
        X as in
        Y as in
        Z as in

    Re .106
    
    C as in charlatan is not valid.  "Ch" makes the initial sound - without
    the C, you get harlatan.
    
    No, I have no suggested replacements.  Not yet, anyway.  :-)
    
    -dick
    

I as in Ipoh   (pronounced, I believe, E-poe)

    Steve,
    
    Thanks for Ipoh.  As this is a place name (somewhere in Malaysia?) what
    are the chances that I am going to get told that I can't use it because
    it's really from another language?
    
    Jon-who-is-prepared-to-bend-the-rules-to-get-the-job-done

Well, Jon... I dunno.  Depends on how creative your son will let
you be :-)

    Re .108
    
    > I as in Ipoh   (pronounced, I believe, E-poe)
    
    Some people are apparently missing the point of a *silent* letter.  The
    I in Ipoh is not silent, it is just pronounced in a way not familiar to
    many Americans.  If it were silent, it would have no sound at all, and
    the name would be pronounced as just poe.
    
    -dick

    Ah,
    
    Dick, you are right.  I have misrepresented my case.
    
    On sober reflection I don't want a silent alphabet, I want a misleading
    alphabet.  The criterion for selection of an initial letter is that it
    should appear on the printed page but not be heard in the spoken form. 
    This might be either because it is silent (e.g. K as in knight) or
    because the pronunciation misleads (e.g. I as in Ipoh).
    
    This not only clarifies some of the earlier notes, but (hopefully)
    widens the scope for the creation of the complete alphabet.
    
    BTW - I as in Ipoh had my son in fits of giggles so it's in for the
    moment.
    
    As previous stated, all contributions which help complete the list will
    be gratefully received.
    
    Jon
    
    p.s. If the Moderator(s) feel we should move this string I'll let them
    choose the title :-)
    
        A as in aisle, aeon
        B as in
        C as in czar
        D as in
        E as in eunuch (not sure if I can use this with my 4 year old son)
        F as in
        G as in gnome
        H as in hour
        I as in Ipoh (pronounced ee-po)
        J as in Jugoslavia
        K as in knight, knee
        L as in
        M as in mnemonic
        N as in
        O as in oenophile, one, Oedipus
        P as in ptarmigan, pteranodon, physics,
        Q as in Quixote - looking for an alternative here
        R as in
        S as in
        T as in Tchaikovsky
        U as in
        V as in
        W as in whole, wright, wrong
        X as in
        Y as in
        Z as in
    

>        Q as in Quixote - looking for an alternative here

"quiche" has the same "k" sound -- not silent, but perhaps misleading?

    Re .112
    
    The only problem I have with your "misleading alphabet" concept is that
    it's not at all misleading to someone familiar with non-English
    languages.  The Q in Quixote or quiche, for example, is readily obvious
    to a Spanish or French speaker, respectively.  Unfortunately for me,
    although I'm not fluent in any languages other than English, French,
    and Latin, my exposure to other languages in music has made me able to
    pronounce Spanish, German, and Italian without even thinking about it.
    
    So I guess I'll have to disqualify myself.  How about the Y in Ybor,
    the name of the area of Tampa where the Cuban cigar industry went after
    Castro arrived.  It's pronounced EE-bore.
    
    :-)

    Don't disqualify yourself from a game where the rules may be
    arbitrarily changed in order to make it possible to win ;^}
    
    I like quiche and Ybor (although I have to admit that a more
    internationally well-know example for Y might be nice - or am I just
    displaying my geographic ignorance?).  They're both in.
    
    Jon
    
    p.s. are there only three of us playing?  Have I made the rules to
    confusing?  Is the game too dull?
    
        A as in aisle, aeon
        B as in
        C as in czar
        D as in
        E as in eunuch (not sure if I can use this with my 4 year old son)
        F as in
        G as in gnome
        H as in hour
        I as in Ipoh (pronounced ee-po)
        J as in Jugoslavia
        K as in knight, knee
        L as in
        M as in mnemonic
        N as in
        O as in oenophile, one, Oedipus
        P as in ptarmigan, pteranodon, physics,
        Q as in quiche
        R as in
        S as in
        T as in Tchaikovsky
        U as in
        V as in
        W as in whole, wright, wrong
        X as in
        Y as in Ybor (pronounced ee-bor)
        Z as in
    

    Well, if you accept Ybor, then why not Yvonne or Yves or yttrium?

    John

    Howzabout the SECOND "t" in yttrium?  (Of course that opens the
    floodgates to ALL the double-letters...?)
    

    With the new rules, some of the older notes that I entered (in other
    note numbers as mentioned a few days ago) do qualify, and I do not
    have much to add to them.  For example "w as in why" seems suitably
    misleading.  Regarding "q", I don't remember if I suggested "q as in
    quay" a few years back.
    
    -- Norman Diamond

    Re .118
    
    Bravo, Norman.  Q as in quay is about as misleading as things can get!
    
    (For them as doesn't know how to pronounce quay, it's "kee.")
    
    -dick

><<< Note 1101.118 by JRDV04::DIAMOND "segmentation fault (california dumped)" >>>

>  For example "w as in why" seems suitably misleading.

	How so?

X as in xylophone

    >>    T as in Tchaikovsky
    
    I have to disagree with this one, and if you try Tse Tse (as in the
    fly) I would have to disagree with that one to.  The Tch in Tchaikovsky
    is the Anglification of the Cyrillic (insert funny looking charachter
    here) that sounds much like the tch in Itchy.  It took me two years to
    learn to pronounce that one right as well as some of the other strange
    palatazations and vowell placements that exist in the Russian tongue. 
    The Ts in Tse Tse comes from a similar Letter in the Greek alphabet
    (that the Cyril brothers used as a model for written Russian) that also
    exists in the Cyrillic alphabet.  It is pronounced as the ts in "itsa"
    as in Itsa Boy!!!.  And to think the Russian name for the German
    Language literally translates to the Language of the Dead.
    
    As for P, I always liked Pnemonia
    
    Larry
    
    

    ... the one with the silent u?
    
    :-)
    

        re. last few

    Thanks folks for all the suggestions:

    I have (arbitrarily) decided against Yves because it sounds the same as
    eves (which although _mightily_ misleading is a bit unfair for my son). 
    However, both Yvonne and yttrium seem worthy.

    Quay is great as is pneumonia.
    
    I knew I was tcheating with Tchaikovsy (having done some elementary
    Russian at school, I also learned to pronouce the T).  Can we find a
    replacement?
    
    As for X I am really struggling to decide what the expected sound is
    that X makes at the beginning of a word.  I find that most of the
    examples I come up with produce a sort of `tz' effect as opposed to the
    `ks' you get when it is in the middle of a word.  Please can the
    linguists advise (and provide the required misleading exceptions?)?
    
    Jon
    
        A as in aisle, aeon
        B as in
        C as in czar
        D as in
        E as in eunuch (not sure if I can use this with my 4 year old son)
        F as in
        G as in gnome
        H as in hour
        I as in Ipoh (pronounced ee-po)
        J as in Jugoslavia
        K as in knight, knee
        L as in
        M as in mnemonic
        N as in
        O as in oenophile, one, Oedipus
        P as in ptarmigan, pteranodon, physics, pneumonia
        Q as in quiche, quay
        R as in
        S as in
        T as in Tchaikovsky
        U as in
        V as in
        W as in whole, wright, wrong
        X as in
        Y as in Ybor (pronounced ee-bor), Yvonne, yttrium, 
        Z as in
    
    

re .124, sound of x at the beginning of a word:

most commonly, it is a z sound, as in Xerxes or xenophobia.
the list is short enough to read the dictionary.
it is not easy to predict which z syllable from the following vowel.

i nominate xenon for the list, because science is fun, too.
Xerox or xerography would do. everyone knows Xerox.

    G'day,
     I've been off ill and only just got back to play...
    How's about....
    
    B as in 'rose'... what, no b in rose you say? well there was in this
    one, and that's why I have a sting on my nose!
    
    
    F as in ghoti.... or maybe G?
    
    R as in Elmer's rascally rabbit
    
     
    Q as in QAT... a mid east bush. has no 'u'...
    
    
    c as in celica, a car
    
    n as in ngoro-goro game park
    (any thing in this ditty...
     mtu moja kwenda, kwenda leena shamba
    mtu moja na mbwe yake,
    kwenda leema shamba) [a quick mental association..ngoro-goro to 'one
    man went to mow' in swahili
    
    p as in swimming...
    
    X as in Xanadu... or does X always make a z sound... or X as in [make
    lip smacking kiss sound]
    
    derek
                   
    

    F as in "read the manual"
    
    X as in Xochimilco (probably misspelled; someone with an atlas please
                  fix it -- but I *do* recall the unusual sound for the X)
    
    I as in ego
    
    E as in eye (or eh)
    
    I think there ought to be a Dutch town whose name starts with Tj,
    sounding to an English speaker as if it started with Ch.

    Norman,

    How is Xochimilco pronounced?  You mention the unusual sound for X but
    then, you tease, don't assay the analysis.  I have an atlas but it
    doesn't give etymology or pronounciation.
    
    Derek,
    
    How is Qat pronounced?  If it is `kat' then I love it, if it is `kwat'
    it's no good (because it sounds like a Q even though there is no U
    after it).
    
    Keep 'em coming guys....
    
    Jon
    
        A as in aisle, aeon
        B as in
        C as in czar
        D as in
        E as in eye, eunuch (not sure if I can use this with my 4 year old son)
        F as in
        G as in gnome
        H as in hour
        I as in Ipoh (pronounced ee-po)
        J as in Jugoslavia
        K as in knight, knee
        L as in
        M as in mnemonic
        N as in
        O as in oenophile, one, Oedipus
        P as in ptarmigan, pteranodon, physics, pneumonia
        Q as in quiche, quay
        R as in
        S as in
        T as in Tchaikovsky
        U as in
        V as in
        W as in whole, wright, wrong
        X as in
        Y as in Ybor (pronounced ee-bor), Yvonne, yttrium, 
        Z as in
    

D as in Djali - Esmeralda's pet goat and sidekick (Disney's Hunchback
of Notre Dame) "...great in a pinch when soldiers are nearby. He likes
to horn in on the action but he's really just a big kid. Djali doesn't
say much, but he packs a wallop when he feels Esmeralda is in danger."

y in you

    Re .131
    
    How about E as in ewe?  :-)
    
    -dick

    Re .129
    
    > How is Xochimilco pronounced? ... etymology or pronounciation
    
    It's from Nahuatl, the language of the Aztecs and certain other peoples
    of central Mexico.  If I remember correctly, X in Nahuatl is pronounced
    as TS - in English, this name is distorted, so that the X is pronounced
    as an S.

re>.129                -< Getting there, getting there, only 11 to go >-

>        B as in

Doubt and debt are suggested in .105. Thumb is also a candidate.

>        E as in eye, eunuch (not sure if I can use this with my 4 year old son)

"E" in "cute".

>        I as in Ipoh (pronounced ee-po)

"I" in "suit."

>        L as in

First "l" in "colonel".

- Kazunori

    G'day,
    
    Qat.... pronounced Kat, which is an alternative spelling (as is Khat)
    
    Then there is Zzzzzzz pronounced 'snore' 
    
    Z as in Zed (and not Zee)
    
    
    In Oz, there is a place called 'Goonoo Goonoo' pronounced 'Gunnee
    gunnoo'
    
    dj

re> .129

>        L as in

could, should, would

>        Z as in
    
rendezvous