T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
---|
207.1 | "Funny Pronunciation" mark | JON::MORONEY | This space for rent. | Wed Jun 18 1986 16:48 | 9 |
| I believe _Reader's Digest_ uses umlauts in words like cooperate.
I believe the word "naive" comes from the French, where the i has an umlaut.
The umlaut sticks around because the pronunciation of the word is so different
than English rules would indicate. This happens in a handful of other words,
such as resume' fiance'e, etc. Don't think of it as an umlaut, but a "funny
pronunciation" mark.
-Mike
|
207.2 | | 52354::MONAHAN | | Wed Jun 18 1986 17:23 | 7 |
| I think it is to indicate that two consecutive vowels are not
combined, but pronounced separately. That is, the 'a' and 'i' are
not combined as in 'rain' but separate like in 'camera internals'.
It seems to be used that way in French, and would also fit with
the difference between cooperate and cooper.
Dave
|
207.3 | This may be a nit... | ERIS::CALLAS | Jon Callas | Wed Jun 18 1986 21:53 | 4 |
| Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "umlaut" in English
and French called a "dieresis"?
Jon
|
207.4 | The great nits have little nits.... | DELNI::CANTOR | Dave Cantor | Thu Jun 19 1986 06:40 | 14 |
| Re .3
Not exactly. The umlaut and the dieresis have the same graphic
(two dots arranged horizontally over a letter). Some words
in English have an umlaut ('umlaut' is sometimes spelled with
one on the initial 'u'), and some words have a dieresis, but
you can't distinguish them by looks alone, you have to judge
which it is by the context.
It seems to me that in fonts which do not have a dieresis (such
as a VT100 ASCII font), people sometimes put a hyphen between
the two vowels: re-enter, co-opt, but not na-ive.
Dave C.
|
207.5 | | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Thu Jun 19 1986 12:40 | 6 |
| I was always under the impression English had no accent marks at
all, and the only reason we ever used them was for words from other
languages. I've certainly never seen umlauts used in any dictionary.
-- edp
|
207.6 | | SUPER::MATTHEWS | Don't panic | Thu Jun 19 1986 13:03 | 4 |
| re .4: and I've certainly never seen "umlaut" spelled with an umlaut,
at least not in the original German... got a reference?
Val
|
207.7 | Die-er what? | PABLO::SLOANE | REPLY TO TOPDOC::SLOANE | Thu Jun 19 1986 14:36 | 5 |
| And I always thought that diuresis was what happened when you took
those little pills that made you pee a lot.
-bs
|
207.8 | | ERIS::CALLAS | Jon Callas | Thu Jun 19 1986 21:35 | 10 |
| Fascinating. My OED has all the words one usually sees with a dieresis
(coordinate, cooperate, etc. (sorry, I'm on a 7-bit keyboard)) spelled
with a hyphen. Well, I think I'll remember that for Scrabble!
re .4: "Umlaut" with an umlaut? You must be pulling our (collective)
leg! If it did, it wouldn't be pronounced "oom-lout," would it?
(Hmm, Oom-lout. Must be an obnoxious tuba player in leiderhosen...)
Jon
|
207.9 | Do your words grow together? | CLT::MALER | The Color Red | Thu Jun 19 1986 21:48 | 17 |
| I don't think words like "re-enter" and "co-operate" would have had umlauts
(or diereses) originally; the morpheme in the front is just a Latin prefix,
and Latin doesn't have such marks, does it? I'll bet the marks were added
to aid pronunciation (the "funny pronunciation" theory already mentioned).
According to a style guide I have (I'm an editor in Spit Brook), "reenter"
should be spelled without the hyphen. Words that started with hyphens tend
to grow together as they become more common. It happens with compound
words, too, not just with prefixes and words. For instance, "lifestyle"
used to be "life-style" (I still see this occasionally), and before that,
"life style"! The Chicago Manual of Style talks about this phenomenon. I
usually prefer the solid spelling myself.
By the way, what *is* the difference between an umlaut and a dieresis mark
(if it's not in their appearance)?
@V@
|
207.10 | dieresis vs. umlaut | DELNI::GOLDSTEIN | Distributed Systems Ideology | Fri Jun 20 1986 15:37 | 22 |
207.11 | | ERIS::CALLAS | Jon Callas | Fri Jun 20 1986 16:08 | 33 |
207.12 | | EVER::MCVAY | Pete McVay | Fri Jun 20 1986 18:22 | 15 |
207.13 | I stand corrected. | DELNI::CANTOR | Dave Cantor | Sat Jun 21 1986 04:26 | 3 |
| 'Umlaut' is spelled without an umlaut.
Dave C.
|
207.14 | "dead diacriticals" -- we support them! | RAINBO::FLEISCHER | Bob Fleischer | Mon Jun 23 1986 19:40 | 3 |
| > I heard somewhere
> that diacriticals came into use in Victorian times--it seems that
> the practice of using them is dying out, in English anyway.
|
207.15 | | VOGON::GOODENOUGH | Jeff Goodenough, IPG Reading-UK | Wed Jul 09 1986 13:31 | 11 |
207.16 | Out with umlauts - in with hyphins | TMCUK2::BANKS | Do they mean me? - they surely do. | Wed Jul 09 1986 15:47 | 5 |
| Re: .4 and .15
No never. Keep them out as it dont work on my keyboard.
David
|
207.17 | Nor apostrophes? :-) | VOGON::GOODENOUGH | Jeff Goodenough, IPG Reading-UK | Thu Jul 10 1986 08:33 | 1 |
|
|
207.18 | ''''''''''''''''''''''''' | TMCUK2::BANKS | Do they mean me? - they surely do. | Thu Jul 10 1986 09:29 | 4 |
|
Let me know if you run out, I have got plenty - just received a
new delivery.
|
207.19 | Even "Compose Character" beeped at this one | 4GL::LASHER | Working... | Mon Jul 14 1986 23:52 | 8 |
| Re: .15
"coop" with a hyphen? Like:
-
coop
?
|
207.20 | No beeps -- dashes... | HARDY::KENAH | O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay! | Tue Jul 15 1986 16:13 | 11 |
| "coop" with a hyphen:
Co-op
Many words beginning with the prefix "co-", followed by a vowel
were once written with hyphens. Many of these hyphenated words
are now written "solidly" -- co-ordination is now coordination,
co-operative is now cooperative, and so on.
andrew
|
207.21 | coop vs. co-op | TOPDOC::SLOANE | Notable notes from -bs- | Tue Jul 15 1986 20:09 | 15 |
| The hyphen is also used to distinguish between two words which would
be spelled the same except for the hyphen, but are pronounced
differently.
F'r instance:
coop = where the chickens hang out
co-op = A group enterprise
For better or worse, hyphen usage is decreasing.
-bs
\
\
[that is a decorative hyphen]
|
207.22 | Hyphen separates consonants, too. | DELNI::CANTOR | Dave Cantor | Tue Jul 15 1986 23:38 | 6 |
| Today I saw a hyphen used to separate two CONSONANTS which
otherwise would have been pronounced together. The word was
'mis-hit' (v.t., (I'm guessing) to hit wrongly or incorrectly).
Sorry, I don't remember the entire sentence.
Dave C.
|
207.23 | Get it together | TOPDOC::SLOANE | Notable notes from -bs- | Wed Jul 16 1986 12:19 | 5 |
| Re: .22
I spell it with hyphens, too, because I can't get mishit together.
-bs
|
207.24 | | REX::MINOW | Martin Minow -- DECtalk Engineering | Sat Jul 19 1986 02:16 | 7 |
207.25 | 'Decspell knows...' - I think. | SNOV17::WILLIAMSJOHN | | Mon Sep 08 1986 02:08 | 12 |
| re -.20
Decspell, with the BRITISH dictionary, will (quite rightly in
my opinion) offer "co-operate" in exchange for "cooperate" and
"co-ordinate" for "coordinate". But then... it won't pass by
"organize" ( a perfectly valid if unusual English spelling of
"organise"), or "connexion" (if it's good enough for Jane Austen...)
without complaint.
-john
PS I think the use of little dots in 'coo(")perate' etc. was an
American phenomenon, I've never seen it in English use.
|
207.26 | Someone is disorganized. | APTECH::RSTONE | | Mon Sep 08 1986 14:34 | 11 |
| Re: .25
> ..."organize" ( a perfectly valid if unusual English spelling
of "organise")...
It happens that neither of my dictionaries include the word
"organise", therefore I must assume it is an Olde English ( :^)
variation. "Organize" is not only perfectly valid, but it is
_the usual_ spelling of the word in American English. So is the
associated word "organization".
|
207.27 | A dynamic organisation? | SNOV17::WILLIAMSJOHN | | Tue Sep 09 1986 00:09 | 19 |
| Re: .26
You raise (inadvertently I'm sure ( :^)) a good point -
when I said 'unusual English spelling' I used English in the
meaning -
"pertaining to England and the residents thereof"
You presumed me to mean:
" the family of languages which includes that spoken
in the USA"
Perhaps we need a way of distinguishing the 2 meanings - after all,
although there are over 200 million users of American English there
are also 25 M Canadians, 55 Million + British, 15 Million Australians
and countless Africans and Indians (etc...) who still conform (mainly) to
English English(!), and who would find 'organise' in their OED and
OCD and still put a 'u' in 'colour' etc.
|
207.28 | It depends on your point of view. | APTECH::RSTONE | | Tue Sep 09 1986 13:39 | 21 |
| The intent of my challenging your comment was not to make an issue
of the spelling of any particular word. I'm more amused than I
am disturbed by the variations in spelling and usage between the
British vs. American English. My reaction was to your use of the
phrase "unusual English", particularly when you consider the audience
represented by readers of this conference. Perhaps it is not as
drastic, but it could be somewhat akin to dropping an ethnic slur
in the wrong company!
I basically agree with your pupulation statistics on either side
of the language usage business, and they are sufficiently large
on either side to disarm any claim as to which version is _correct_.
The more important consideration is to recogni(z)e the makeup of
the present participants and to avoid casting unintended aspersions.
I am reminded of a sign seen frequently in Germany when I was serving
there in the U.S. Army: "English Spoken - American Understood"
Cheers! ( :^))
|
207.29 | 'Sense and Sensibility' | SNOV17::WILLIAMSJOHN | | Wed Sep 10 1986 00:37 | 20 |
| re .25 et al.
Taking my phrase out of context you may have felt aspersions
were intended, the context being DECspell and its BRITISH dictionary.
What I meant to say:
1. DECSPELL/MASTER=BRITISH recognizes 'organise'
but not 'organize'.
2. I, and my dictionaries, think both are _correct_.
3. In England (Britain...,but not Canada) 'organise' is the
more common spelling in use.
The comments were meant to reflect, if on anything, on the Decspell
BRITISH dictionary, not on any members of the audience. As a
Canadian of British extraction currently resident in Australia,
I have enough problems remembering which side of the road to
point my bonnet at.
|
207.30 | i'll try it! | REGENT::MERRILL | Glyph it up! | Wed Sep 10 1986 13:04 | 17 |
207.31 | Response | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Sat Sep 13 1986 02:02 | 12 |
207.32 | Some examples | DELNI::CANTOR | Dave Cantor | Sat Sep 13 1986 17:03 | 27 |
| Re .31
>Is there anything else which is so labeled? How
>often do you receive letters that say "letter" at the top?
Orders (military and judicial), technical notes, warrants,
certificates are just some of the items which are so labelled.
>Are many books in the bookstore labeled "book"?
Not many, but you can find blank books, note books, and day
books.
>Perhaps you have a lamp marked "lamp", in case somebody forgets?
See my note 144.2, please, for a similar ridiculous proposition.
--
I don't put the word 'resume' on my resume any more, but I used
to. When I did, I either wrote the accent marks in manually or
had them added before printing. My cousin, who is 21 years old,
and now going to school to be an R.N. told me that they still
teach putting the word on the document itself, with the accent
marks.
Dave C.
|
207.33 | Speed reading can be hazardous to your comprehension. | SWSNOD::RPGDOC | Dennis the Menace | Mon Sep 15 1986 15:05 | 1 |
| Why is it that every time I come by this topic I think of walnuts?
|
207.34 | A touch of dislexia, perhaps? | APTECH::RSTONE | | Mon Sep 15 1986 17:37 | 2 |
| Re: -.1
|
207.35 | excuse me | COOKIE::ZANE | Terza | Tue Sep 16 1986 18:32 | 7 |
|
Re: -.1
That should be lysdexia, shouldn't it? :^)
|
207.36 | Reply | 4GL::LASHER | Working... | Tue Sep 16 1986 22:20 | 8 |
| Re: .31
Is there anything else which is so labeled? How
often do you receive letters that say "letter" at the top? Are
many books in the bookstore labeled "book"? Perhaps you have a
lamp marked "lamp", in case somebody forgets?
Reminds me of those signs that read "POSTED. NO TRESPASSING."
|
207.37 | Reply title | DELNI::CANTOR | Dave Cantor | Wed Sep 17 1986 02:15 | 7 |
| Re .36
I've even seen signs which just say "POSTED" without the
admonition against trespassing even being on the sign. Any day
now, I expect to see a "POSTED SIGN" sign.
Dave C.
|
207.38 | Redundant Self-identification | NY1MM::BOWERS | Dave Bowers | Thu Oct 23 1986 20:18 | 7 |
| The city of Stamford CT requires boat owners to pay a tax, in exchange
for which they are provided with a decal to put on the bow of the
vessel. This quaint little thing solemnly identifies itself as
CERTIFICATE OF DECAL
?
|
207.39 | | TKOV52::DIAMOND | | Mon Feb 19 1990 04:50 | 12 |
| Regarding several old notes on the use of the hyphen, and the
gradual elision of the hyphen-
Once upon a time we were told to go forth and multiply. Every
generation, the population was supposed to double, until there
was no space available for growing food etc. This rule was
referred to colloquially by the requisite family size of four
children and two parents, or "4-2", and eventually became the
entire meaning of life.
Then one day someone forgot the hyphen, and they got confused
and couldn't figure out the meaning any more....
|
207.40 | | LDYBUG::LAVEY | In search of a dream | Mon Feb 19 1990 17:20 | 7 |
|
RE .39 and the "4-2" rule...
:-)
-- Cathy
|
207.41 | just wondering. . . | TLE::RANDALL | living on another planet | Thu Feb 22 1990 21:50 | 4 |
| Is this related to the problem that some snakes aren't able to
multiply, because they're adders?
--bonnie
|
207.42 | | ROULET::RUDMAN | Always the Black Knight. | Thu May 17 1990 22:27 | 4 |
| ADDER,n. A species of snake. So called from its habit of adding
funeral outlays to the other expenses of living.
--Ambrose Bierce
|
207.43 | sorry, couldn't resist | HPSCAD::ALTMAN | BARB | Wed Nov 14 1990 00:24 | 1 |
| Adders can multiply if you give them a table of logs
|
207.44 | data base -> data-base -> database | RANGER::BRADLEY | Chuck Bradley | Thu Apr 20 1995 14:12 | 8 |
| re hyphens and all that.
a while back i checked a lot of books about computer databases for some
reason that seemed important at the time. i noticed they started as
"data base", made a transition to "data-base", and are now "database".
all in 30 years or less.
|
207.45 | Happens all the time ... | FORTY2::KNOWLES | | Fri May 05 1995 10:19 | 9 |
| Check out blackbird - which presumably collapsed into one word too long
ago to matter much now.. (Incidentally, a female blackbird isn't a
black bird).
This is why I frequently refer to four editions of the COED (and
as many other sources as I have time for).
b
|