Conference thebay::joyoflex

    The full name was (transliterated from Arabic):
    
    Abu Ja'far Mohammed ibn Musa al-Khowarizmi
    
    Which means "Father of Ja'far, Mohammed son of Moses, native of
    Khowarizm".   The latter is a city now called Khiva in the Soviet
    far east.  "Algorithm" was taken from his name because he wrote
    a book on how to do various arithmetic operations.
    
    Source: page 1 of Knuth's _Fundamental_Algorithms_.
    
    				-John Bishop

    
    	Loewenzahn	(German) Lion's tooth
    
    	Den de Lion	(french) Lion's tooth
    
    	Dandelion	(english) weed.

A slight digression from the original topic.

Many Arabic words (some of which have found there way into English - e.g. 
algorithm, alchemy, algebra, alembic, albacore, alfalfa) start with the prefix
"al". A lot of these words have come to English from Spanish, probably due to
the Moorish occupation of Spain. 

Are there any Arabic speaking readers of this Notes file who could tell me
what the "al" prefix means?  Is it simply equivalent to "the"?  Was the Arabic 
"al" transmuted into the Spanish "el"? 

Larry

    I'm almost certain that the Arabic word "al" is that language's
    definite pronoun, and thus is translated as "the". 
   
    Examples:  the English word "elixir" is derived from the Arabic 
    "al iksir," which means "the dryness." There is a star named Algol,
    which means "The Demon." (Algol's brightness changes regularly;
    it is an example of an eclipsing binary system.)  
    
    I have no idea if there is any connection between the Arabic "al"
    and the Spanish "el".                            
    
    WRT the original topic, I recommend Isaac Asimov's "Words of Science,"
    a book chock-full of interesting etymologies.
    
    					andrew

    Re .4:
    
    >          ..  ..   ..        There is a star named Algol,
    >which means "The Demon."
    
    Or "the ghoul."  "Ghoul" apparently comes from the "gol," or vice
    versa, but in English has come to mean more or less a cadaverophagous
    entity rather than a straight demon.
    
    And whole we're at it, "alchemy" comes from "al," meaning "the,"
    and "chem," from "Khem," the ancient and original name of Egypt,
    which meant both the land, and the black, moist soil of the Nile
    delta.  present "chemistry," of course, derived both linguistically
    and operationally from alchemy, so the "chem" of "chemistry" has
    a more colorful history than it might first appear.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    Belladonna:	 (Italian)  pretty woman
    
    Belladonna : (English)  deadly poison

    
    	roger
    

    MLNOIS::HARBIG
                   Re .6
                   The derivation I heard for Belladonna is that the
                   poison extracted from this plant was used in the
                   Belle Epoque as eyedrops by women to dilate the
                   pupils and give them that wide eyed innocent look
                   that was then in vogue.
                   It is also, I believe, called Deadly Nightshade in
                   English ?
                   Can anyone confirm or refute ?
                                                       Max
    

re: .7
   I believe you're right about Belladonna = "Deadly Nightshade".  I also
   seem to remember that it has several other "folk" names, and that it's
   right up there with Mandrake root for use in herbal "magic".  

   Steve Kallis, do you know anything about this? 

   -- Sam

    
    ARABIC	al oud (a musical instrument)
    ENGLISH	lute   (European version of Arab instrument)
    
    There is probably a strong link between Arabic "al" and Spanish
    "el" - after all the Arabs rules Spain for a few hundred years.
    
    

    Re .8:
    
    Well, belladonna has been used also by actors for pupil dilation,
    especially stage actors.
    
    It is a natural anesthetic and helped witches who were being burned
    during the European witch hysteria to deaden the pain.  Witches
    called it "banewort" or "dwayle."  
    
    Although one meaning of "nightshade" is belladonna, ordinarily
    nightshade is of the genus _Solanum_, whereas belladonna is of the
    genus _Atropa_ [Mandrake is of the genus _Mandragora_, just to complete
    the picture.]  Henbane is also som,etimes called "nightshade."
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    MLNOIS::HARBIG
                  Re .10 
                  You gave me a clue with the plant family.
                  I think the substance which causes the dilation is
                  Atropine. 
                  ********
                  Sandwich is supposed to come from the Earl of Sandwich
                  who stuck some meat between two slices of bread but
                  in what context I cannot remember.
                  Rubber boots in the U.K. are called wellingtons from
                  the Duke (Waterloo etc.)
                  Cardigan (a sweater that buttons up the front) comes
                  from Lord Cardigan who is supposed to have invented
                  it during the Crimean War.
                  In Italy a duffel-coat is called a "montgomery", since
                  the first one that was seen here was worn by Field
                  Marshal Montgomery.
                  For some reason a garage of a house is a "box" which
                  is also a child's playpen and a cardigan is a "golf".
                  Re the al to el in Spanish.
                  ---------------------------
                  The Arabs were in Sicily and Southern Italy for centuries
                  as well so that could have introduced the "il" in
                  Italian as well.                     
                                          Max

    "Il" and "el" as articles in Spanish and Italian come from the
    late Latin "ille", meaning "this".   The coincidence of sound
    with the Arabic definite article "al" is just that.
    
    Non-Arabic newspapers have a problem with the Arabic "al", as
    its sound assimilates to some following consonant.  Thus Anwar
    Sadat's last name is written "al-sadat" (Arabic having no capitals),
    but pronounced "as-sadat".  I've seen both the "al-" and the "as-"
    forms in newspaper articles, as well as "el-" and "es-".
    
    					-John Bishop

    The French for a fanlight above a door is "le vasistas".  Apparently,
    a visiting German dignitary pointed to one and asked what it was.
    It had no name up till that point.
    
    (This may be apocryphal, but it's a nice explanation)
    
    Jeff.

    Re .11:
    
    >               Sandwich is supposed to come from the Earl of Sandwich
    >               who stuck some meat between two slices of bread but
    >               in what context I cannot remember.
    
    Because he did not want to stop gambling to eat.
    
    
    				-- edp

  Okay, all you JoyOfLexers (shudder), here's your chance!
  
  What is the etymology of bistro?  I heard, but never confirmed the story
  that when Russian soldiers were in Paris during one of the World Wars,
  they were constantly demanding service, buistra, buistreya (fast, faster).
  So when the cafes were being reestablished, they were called bistros
  for being faster than normal restaurants.
  
  Is there any truth to this story?  I don't know my history, so I'm not
  sure why Russian soldiers would be in Paris...
  
  Anybody care to give it a shot?
  
  
  						Terza
  

    MLNOIS::HARBIG
                  I'm not sure about the etymology but as far as I
                  know the last time Russian soldiers were in France
                  was in 1815-16 when Cossacks were camped in the
                  Bois de Boulogne after Waterloo.
                                                   Max 
                                                   

    The Russian derivation is the one I was told as well, years ago
    when studying Russian at school. It could have been Russian emiogres
    rather than Russian soldiers, I suppose.
    
    Phillip

    Another interesting etymology is the word "pink." It was applied
    to the Dianthus family (including the well-known carnations) because
    of the ragged edges of the flower, giving the effect of being cut
    by pinking shears. Since most of the dianthus family has pink flowers,
    "pink" gradually assumed the meaning of the color, rather than the
    petal formation.
    
    Back to the discussion of the Solanum plant family, tomatoes are
    also a member of that family, leading to the misconception that
    tomatoes were poisonous as well as "deadly nightshade." All discussions
    that I have ever read on belladonna mentioned that Italian women
    used to ingest it to dilate their pupils...
    
    stel
    
    
    stel

    another good one -- "assassin" and "hashish" coming from the same
    word...assassins used hashish to help them commit their dastardly
    crimes...
    
    stel
    

    >     ...assassins used hashish to help them commit their dastardly
    > crimes...

    By baking it into their victim's brownies?  I guess if you
    gotta go. . .
    
    Sid 

    Wow! One innocent question and 21 replies pop up! It's all good
    stuff, too.
    
    Re: the Earl of Sandwich. To expand a bit, the idea was that by
    putting the meat between two slices of bread and thus avoid getting
    their fingers (and hence the playing cards) greasy.
    
    Another word:
    
    "Robot" was invented in 1925 by Carel Kapek, a Polish playwright.
    He created it out of his head for the automatons which featured
    in his play "Rossum's Universal Robots". I've seen the play - it's
    awful!
    
    That reminds me: I remember reading that "Automatic" was invented
    by a nineteenth-century American businessman for an advertising
    campaign. Anyone care to confirm or refute this?
    
    Andy

re. .-1:
    
>    "Robot" was invented in 1925 by Carel Kapek, a Polish playwright.
>    He created it out of his head for the automatons which featured
>    in his play "Rossum's Universal Robots". I've seen the play - it's
>    awful!
>    
>    Andy



Close, but no cigar.  Kapek was a Czech; "Robot" is Czech for "worker".

Larry

    
    Then there's PEDIGREE, from French 'pied-de-grue' (crane leg)
    which designated a sign ( like: /|\ ) frequently used in 
    genealogy books of medieval England.
    
    	roger
    

    
    And SALARY, from Latin salarium - the money that the Roman
    legionnaires received to buy some salt.

    Now you know what you're supposed to get with your paycheck.
    
	roger    

    > And SALARY, from Latin salarium - the money that the Roman
    > legionnaires received to buy some salt.
    
    Legionaries (legionairres is French) in foreign parts actually received
    part of their pay as lumps of salt, due to the difficulties in
    obtaining a supply locally.
    
    Andy

    Re .28:
    
    Those are used for elephant salaries.
    
    
    				-- edp

    Re .19:
    
    >Back to the discussion of the Solanum plant family, tomatoes are
    >also a member of that family, leading to the misconception that
    >tomatoes were poisonous as well as "deadly nightshade." 
    
    Indeed, tomatoes, called "love apples," were once considered deadly.
    In a way, this is correct; for while the fruit (berries) of the
    tomato plant are edible, the leaves are quite poisonous (watch out
    what you put in your salads!), and have reportedly been used in
    a crime or two.  These plants are distantly related to European
    (true) Mandrake (_Mandragora_ family).
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Wasn't there an intriguing etymology in some popular song or show
    tune or well-known humor singer (Tom Lehrer maybe?) that went something
    like:
    
    	...which rhymes with <something> which sounds like <something
    	else> which is the Italian word for "saxaphone"
    
    anyone remember details ?
    
    /Eric

    Did the English word "bell" exist before Alexander Graham Bell's
    invention of the telephone ?  I mean, is it just a kuh-winky-dinky
    that his name is "Bell" ?
    
    I asked this in the ELECTRO_HOBBY notes file and got a humorous
    reply:
    
    	Well, his name was actually Alexander Graham Ding_dong, but
    	as the phone company evolved, they decided that "Ma Ding_dong"
    	didn't sound so good.
    
    /Eric

   I'd have to assume that (for example) since we had the "Liberty Bell" 
   back in revolutionary times, that the word "bell" has/had been around for
   a while before good ole' Alex.  I can't imagine our forefathers calling it
   "the Liberty large-metal-object-that-goes-'clang'-when-you-bang-on-it". 

   On the other hand, I presume you've heard of Alexander Graham Bellowski?
   He was the first telephone pole.

   :-)
   
   -- Sam

    MLNOIS::HARBIG
                  Re .31
                  Unfortunately the Italian word for saxophone is
                  merely "sassofono" which is pretty mundane so 
                  the word you're looking for must be something
                  invented, Italian sounding and funny but re.
                  etymology it reminded me that a Dr.Sax was the
                  inventor of the saxophone and I remember reading
                  somewhere that he invented a number of musical
                  instruments some of them very wierd and wonderful
                  indeed.
                  Maybe Steve Kallis can elucidate ?
                                                     Max

    I read that HANDICAP comes from the name of an English
    game: Hand-in-cap. What kind of game is that ?
    
    	roger

    "Handicap" was a game in which forfeits were held in a cap.
    Presumably if you failed to achieve some object of the game you
    had to put your hand in the cap and withdraw a forfeit.
    
    Jeff.

    Then there's DIGITAL, from Latin "digitus": finger.
    
    	roger

    A story in a local rag about a male suprano talked about _castrati_,
    who were boys-who-stayed-boys after a certain delicate operation.  (This
    practice was in vogue a couple hundred years ago.)  Apparently, there
    were men who attempted to sing the suprano roles in a falsetto voice and
    the only sure-fire method to prove whether or not they were indeed
    _castrati_ illustrated the etymology of the word "testify".

    (I don't make 'em up ...)

    re:.39
    
    "Testify" and "testicle" (more appropriately "testis") both come
    from the Latin word *testis*, meaning "witness". Why the word for
    the male gonad should be derived from the Latin for "witness" I
    leave as an exercise for the reader (because I haven't got the
    faintest idea why).
    
    --- jerry

    MLNOIS::HARBIG
                   I read somewhere that Orchid comes from the Greek
                   orchis because the roots or bulbs resemble testicles.
                   
                                              Max

    I read recently (in Robertson Davies' The Deptford Trilogy, I think,
    he is after all very knowledgeable about the Bible) that characters
    in the Old Testament would swear solemn oaths whilst holding each
    others' testicles. Hence the common part of testify, testis and
    Testament?
    
    Phillip

    Check (cf sheik) > king
    mate (cf matador) > dead

    The word 'kaleidoscope' derives from three words of classical Greek:
    
    	kalos   -  beautiful
    
    	eidos   -  form
    
        scopion -  to see
    
    Bernie

                Re .44
    
                   " Hence 'zucchero'(IT with no unnecessary article)"
                                         
                   There is a definite article for zucchero in italian.
    
                   It is the irregular form "lo" which is used for
    
                   masculine nouns beginning with "z" or "s" impure
         
                   i.e. followed by a consonant.
    
                   So "Pass me the sugar !"is"Passa mi lo zucchero!"
    
                   and not "Pass me sugar!"
    
                   The plural article is "gli" which is probably one
    
                   of the words which foreigners have most difficulty
    
                   in pronouncing and the indefinate article is "uno"
    
                   and not "un".
    
                                             Max
    

    re: .39, .40:
    
    It always seemed to me that dying "intestate" must be a nasty way
    to go. :-)
    
    Andy

    Re: .46
    
    Sorry - I wasn't too clear.  When I said 'unnecessary article'
    I was referring to the al/a- stuck on indiscriminately to the
    beginnings of nouns be Berbers speaking Arabic as a second language.
    
    b

               Re. 48
                Thanks I understand now.
                I have a question for you.
                Someone told me, more years ago than I care to remember,
                that "el sahara" in arabic means the desert so if we say
                the Sahara desert we are actually saying the desert
                desert.
                Do you know if this is true or not ?
                                                     Max

    Sahra'	= Desert
    Sahara	= Deserts (plural)
    
    Es-Sahara	= The deserts.
    
    But "The Sahara desert" continues a fine tradition: the Avon river
    is another example of double naming, as "afon" is Welsh for "river".
    
    			-John Bishop

    re:.49/.50
    
    Not to mention Torpenhow Hill, which translates from various
    languages as Hill Hill Hill Hill.
    
    --- jerry

    Re: recent notes
    
    Yes - this sort of word making has a very long history. My
    favourite is the French aujourd'hui [hui< Latin 'hodie'< hoc die
    = at this day].  So aujourd'hui means 'at the day of at the day'.
    Some politicians (the sort who'd say 'in this day and age' if they
    were speaking English) even say "au jour d'aujourd'hui".
    [Roger - is this expression very widespread?]
    
    Re: Chancellor of the Exchquer
    
    Yes, that's his title. I wonder if this is also relevant (don't
    take this as Gospel - it's just an idea):
    	
    	I remember learning in primary school (early '60s) about
    	a primitive form of quality control when coffee beans are
    	first sold. The supervisor took a handful of beans from 
    	a sack and put one bean on each square of a chequered 
    	board 10 squares by 10. If, say, 80 of the beans were OK,
    	the whole sack was taken as being 80% OK. Maybe this is
    	the link between chequerboards and accountancy (or, in
    	irreverent parlance, 'bean counting').
    
    Bob

	For all its worth:

		The word TEDESCO in Italian means German.
	
	My Neanderthal relatives must have migrated down to Italy.


/Bob Tedesco/

               Re .51
                 You're probably right Roger that it comes
                 from the Norman French word for a chessboard
                 but the reason I heard was that before the
                 invention of double entry book-keeping the
                 chap who balanced the incomings and outgoings
                 actually used a sort of chess board with counters
                 which on white squares meant incomings and on
                 black meant outgoings or vice-versa.
                 I've a question for you.
                 I read somewhere that the word "budget" is an
                 example of something that passed out of one
                 language into another then back again i.e.
                 French to English to French in that le buget was
                 the name of a little bag or purse which Norman
                 knights carried attached to their belt with their
                 money in it.(No pockets in those days)
                 They took the word to England in 1066 where it
                 acquired its current meaning(s) but died out in
                 France and has now passed back into common usage
                 there.
                 True, false, a load of old rubbish ?
                                                    Max      
               

    Re: borrowings borrowed back
    
    I'm sure this happens a lot, but can't think of any examples.
    The 'budget' one's fascinating.  I wonder how long it'll be
    before French stage artistes start referring to repeat performances
    as 'encore's (although no French audience would call "Encore"
    when they meant "Bis"). 
    
    Re: testicles
    
    I read somewhere that the avocado tree is a "testicle tree"
    (from Central American Indian 'ahuacatl', nothing to do with
    lawyers).
    
    bob

             Re .57
                  In Italy the audience calls "Bis!" when they
                  want an encore and it has entered the language
                  in the phrase "Facciamo il bis?" which means
                  "Shall we do it again?" (Let's have another
                  round!).
                  In this case the question is purely rhetorical
                  and if there is any reply the affermative is
                  obligatory -).
                                           Max

    I read that avocados are called "lawyers" in Romance languages because
    of the similarity of the Aztec (?) word to "avocat." I had always
    thought it was because they are slimy and green with a tough hide.
    Shows what I know... 
    
    	Jon

              Re.59
              They're not called lawyers in the Romance languages
              but they will be if more people get to know your
              etymological explanation.-)  

	In French, AVOCAT means both avocado and lawyer. 
    	Etymology however shows that there are in fact 2 different
     	words:
    
    	. Avocat (fruit) - from Aztec 'Ahuacalt' as mentioned 
    	  in .57. Some etymologists also link it with a word 'Avoka'
    	  used in the Caribbean Islands.
    
    	. Avocat (lawyer) - from Lat. 'Advocatus', from 'vocare':
    	  to call. A laywer is a guy you call for help when in trouble.
    	  'Vocare' also gave 'voice' etc ...
    
    		roger    

         Advocate is also an English word for a lawyer.
         A barrister that is as opposed to a solicitor.
         In the trade they are known as pleaders and a
         " right little bunch of pleaders they are too!"
                                                       Max

    I read yesterday that 'melancholy' is from the Greek for 'black
    bile'. The ancient Greeks had a theory about physiology which was
    that your mood was determined by the fluids flowing through your
    body. If you were depressed or sad you were thought to have a black
    bile inside you. Hence the word melancholy. Does anyone know of
    any other words with a simmilar background?
    
    			Ian.

               I can't think of any "borrowings borrowed back" like
               budget but on a seasonal note the word "fall" for
               autumn which British English speakers think of today
               as peculiarly American was standard English of the 
               17th Century and appears in Raleigh's "Reply to Marlowe":
    
                         "A honey tongue, a heart of gall
                          Is fancies spring, but sorrows fall."
                           
               The usage survived in America but in Britain the word
               "Autumn", which had been around since Chaucer, obliterated
                "fall".
                                                Max

    re. 63
    
    There's also HYSTERIA, from the Greek word for ovary. Hysteria 
    was supposed to be caused by some ovarian disorder.
    
    Do doctors still use "hysteria" as the name for some kind of
    nervous disease ? What if the patient is male ?
    
    	roger

re:  -< From the Greek... >-

The fluids were called the "humors" (the fluid in your eye is "aqueous 
humor.") and there were a number of them that have made it down the 
centuries.  (I think there were seven.)  The only one I remember 
off-hand is phlegm, an overabundance of which made you phlegmatic. 
(Slow, clam, unemotional.)

Another set of fluid-words from latin "sanguinarius" (blood) is sanguine 
(red-complexioned), and through the French, sang-froid (cold blooded.)

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Schoolboy joke:
    
    	Voici l'anglais avec son sang-froid habituel
    
    	Here comes the Englishman with his usual bloody cold

    
    		There was a young fellow called Wall
    		Who fell in a spring in the fall.
    			'Twould have been a sad thing
    			Had he died in the spring,
    		But he didn't - he died in the fall.

    Re: .66
    
    > (I think there were seven.)  
    
    The way I was taught it, there were four (that made it down
    to Shakespeare's time).  But 'aquaeous humor' suggests there
    were more. Like many of these traditions, I guess the numbering
    and definition changed from age to age.

    Those four are:
    
    black bile	(melancholy, already noted)
    yellow bile (or choler - an excess of which gave an angry disposition)
    blood 	(already noted)
    phlegm	(already noted)
    
    A doctor's job was to maintain the balance between the four.  Illness
    was caused by any imbalance.  A well-balanced person was 'good
    humoured'.  In Shakespeare's play's, a 'humour character' - ? -
    had an excess of any of the four.

    
    Re: testifying
    
    Am I right in thinking that in Old Testament(!) times, and probably
    before, women were regarded as incapable of taking an oath (like
    children are today in English law)? If this indefensible belief
    were widespread, I shouldn't be at all surprised at the association
    between testifying and testicles.
    
    b

    WRT .66:
    
    >...The only one I remember off-hand is phlegm, an overabundance of
    >which made you phlegmatic. (Slow, clam, unemotional.) 
    
    Yes, I agree, clams generally *are* slow and unemotional.

    					(-: andrew :-)
                                            
  

Re: .70

	No doubt you make fun of cripples on the street as well.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    RE:  The four humours:
    
    An excess of yellow bile made you choleric.
    An excess of blood made you sanguine.      
    
    RE hysteria --> ovary 
    From whence came the surgical procedure, hysterectomy; getting rid
    of that which makes you hysterical.
    
    Susan

    Sorry, Patrick, but the "slow, clam" line fairly ached for a response.
    
    					andrew
    
    PS - Extra credit to those of you who recognize the allusions in
    our reply titles...

    By the bye, the Greek word that forms the root for "hysteria"
    refers to the Uterus, not the Ovaries.
    
    					andrew

    re .70, some_following:
    
    >Yes, I agree, clams generally *are* slow and unemotional. 
    
    But really, it depends un the clam.  I've been told that some are
    quite hot and passionate (for clams); else, where would all the
    little clams come from?
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    RE: clam
    
    Is this a particularly US typo? As we British (and others?) use
    the expression 'to clam up' - in the sense 'to become secretive',
    I assumed .70's 'clam' meant something like 'taciturn'. Does it?
    Could it? Am I just being extraordinarily dense (difficult question,
    if you don't know how dense I am ordinarily ;-)
    
    b

    Here in the New World "to clam up" doesn't mean 'secretive' so much
    as it does 'uncommunicative'.
    
    Bernie

    Curfew <= couvre feu
    
    English got this one from the Normans, I think. In the 11th cent.
    fire was the only sort of artificial light, so a 'couvre feu'
    order was a bit stricter than the modern 'curfew'.
    
    b

    
    re .1 That's a good one, not a fiasco. 
    
     I guess FIASCO simply means bottle in Italian. When
    the audience was disappointed by some theater play, they 
    used to shout that the author should "far fiasco", ie hang
    a bottle in front of his door, meaning he should have
    been a barkeeper.
    
         roger

   
    Somewhere back in the English theatre/performing arts, there was
    a character called a 'bottle man' who went round the onlookers
    after a 'free' performance with an empty bottle asking for
    contributions (and, because of the bottle-neck, not giving change).
    
    I don't imagine this has anything to do with .-1, but it's an
    odd coincidence.
    
    b

    
    Can anyone confirm the etymology of the phrase "so long" (as in
    "thanks for all the fish") ?
    
     It derives from Malay "salang" and Arab/Indian "salaam".
    Probably the British picked it up from India and incorporated it
    into the English language after some unexplained modification.
    This is true of several English words.
    
    --mva

    Re: .-1
    
    It rings a bell, tho' I can't confirm it. Certainly, the
    supposed derivation from 'salaam' isn't far fetched. Any
    nasal consonant, or cluster of consonants involving a
    nasal - especially at the end of a word - is fair game
    for changes like -m => -ng; e.g. V Latin 'in finem' =>
    French 'enfin' but Portuguese 'em fim'.  To add to the fun,
    the -m in Portuguese becomes n- when it's elided.  So
    'in the' ('em o') becomes 'no'.
    
    On another, vaguely related topic: most speakers of English
    have pretty unstable nasal consonants at the ends of words.
    'Fine, thanks' usually comes out as 'Fine, thanks'; but say
    'fine' at the end of a sentence, especially if it's the last
    thing you say in a conversation, and what usually comes out
    (in Br English speakers at least) is 'Fime' (unbelievers
    look in a mirror before objecting ;-)
    
    b

    It probably goes along with sayings like "o reservior," "mercy
    buckets," "your feet are strange," and "hostile to sister." 
    
    	Jon

    Now what's the etymology of BACKGAMMON ? 
    
    In the old times, the game was known in France under the name
    of "jacquet" - a diminutive for the name Jacques. Jacquet
    went to England and, one way or another, became jockey. 
    Jockey (and disc-jockey) are now widely used here.
    
    Later the same game was known here as "tric-trac" or "trictrac".
    Some French Kings (Louis XVI ?) were good trictrac players. 
    This name is no longer used (except in historical context).
    
    Today the game is commonly known here as backgammon. But the 
    name "jacquet" is still used sometimes by purists ...
    
    	roger

    
     A phrase which has oft intrigued me - "Round Robin", as in "protocol"
     (which also has an interesting etymology).
    
       I can understand the "round", but where does the "robin" come
     in ?
    
    -- mva 

  Two questions:
  
  Has anyone ever heard such an expression as "mind your sixes and sevens?"
  
  If so, what does it mean and where does it come from?
  
  
  						Terza
  
  

    The expression, in British English at least, is "at sixes and sevens"
    - meaning something like "having no idea what to do". There's also
    the expression "mind your Ps and Qs" - meaning something like
    "take care to do things exactly right". I imagine - because my
    3-yr-old has similar trouble with 'b' and 'd' - this relates to
    the similarity between 'p' and 'q' in some kinds of writing.
    
    No idea of the derivation of "at sixes and sevens"; but I could
    imagine someone someone getting the two expressions (about
    6s & 7s and Ps & Qs) mixed up. 
    
    b

Here is what I learned about "mind your P's and Q's":

Back in the 1700s, barkeeps allowed you to keep an open tab for an entire
evening.  If you drank a pint, they chalked one up in the P column.  If you
drank a couple of pints, they chalked one up in the Q column.  If you were
out of control, they advised you to "mind your P's and Q's."

    Re: .-1
    
    Better than my idea.  My excuse is that since England lost its
    big milk bottles (late '50s?) the only [kwo:ts] I've been
    conscious of is the mineral ;-)

    ...and another thing: Can anybody say where "Goody two shoes"
    comes from?
    
    Rob

    Another version of "mind your Ps and Qs" may be folk etymology.
    
    The way I heard it, the phrase was addressed to typesetters, who
    could easily confuse lowercase ps and qs... of course, if this
    were the case, then the phrase could just as easily have been
    "Mind your bs and ds."
    
    					andrew

    If I remember it aright, the lower-case type characters d, b, q
    and p were refered to as the printers devils, because they were
    forever bedeviling the young apprentices.
    
    Re .86
    In Gilbert and Sullivan's "H.M.S. Pinafore", Buttercup asks why
    things always seem to be  "either at sixes or at sevens" meaning
    in a state of confusion or disorder, or in disagreement. I would
    hazard a guess that it has something to do with the face of a clock.
    
    Dave

   I read one the other day I hadn't heard before:  "Eighty-nines" being
   used (apparently) to mean shoes, or feet.  As in, "Get moving!  I want to
   see the bottoms of your eighty nines!" 

   Anyone ever hear of this, or know from whence it comes?  The context was
   a fictional description of a black man's life in the army in the 1930s.
   (Specifically, in the Stephen King book, "IT".)

   -- Sam

    	The apprentices were the printers' devils, because (since they
    were always given the dirty jobs) they were always covered in ink.
    
    	The story I heard about Ps and Qs was a derivation from an
    admonition to politeness for young children.
    
    "Mind your PlEASes and thanKYOUS".

    Re: several prior
    
    The Ps and Qs did come from instructions to the typesetters because
    they were located next to each other in the tray and it was very
    easy to get them mixed up. This also accounts for not using _b's
    and d's_ ; because they were seldom confused. 
    
    My grandfather was a typesetter.

According to the guides at Sturbridge Village, the expression P's and Q's
DID originate in the taverns of the colonial period, refering to pints and 
quarts.

Dave

    I go with .94--sort of.
    
    Long before there were any typesetters, there were children learning to
    print letters. It is typical for a young child to get letters reversed
    [mirror writing], so teachers transformed the already common phrase,
    "Mind your pleases and thank-yous" into "Mind your [lower case] 'p's
    and 'q's" to remind the kids to concentrate their efforts at getting
    those confusing letters correct. 

How about the origin of "Lock, stock and barrel". Two possibilities that 
I've thought of are:

1. The lock on the door the stock in the store, and the barrels in which the 
   stock is stored.

2. The lock (firing mechanism), stock (wooden portion) and barrel of a rifle.

Personally, I prefer the latter since it is more all encompassing and describes 
the WHOLE unit.

Now, how about the phrase "the whole kit and kaboodle" (sp?) or is it a
kitten kaboodle ;^).

Dave

    Re :.-1
    
    I've always assumed your 2. was right, especially if the expression
    dates from the time when firearms had firing mechanisms called 'locks'
    - as the flintlock certainly did.
    
    b

    The "lock, stock, and barrel" expression did indeed come from the
    pre-rifled-gun era.  This was also before interchangeable parts,
    so every element of a gun was unique to that weapon: that is, you
    couldn't fit the lock of one gun into the stock of another without
    retooling it first.  Taking something "lock, stock, and barrel"
    meant that you got the whole working unit, ready to use.
    
    "Kit and kaboodle" is an old army expression.  "Kit" referred to
    the soldier's personal effects--but I can't remember what "Kaboodle"
    referred to.  Was it the knapsack?...

    Anyone want to try "OK"?  "Hunky-dorey"?

    A theory I heard was based on Orl Korekt. I'll take some convincing.
    
    Re: hunky-dorey
    
    And while we're at it, what about hotsy-totsy?

re. .-1:
Or "Hoochie-Koochie"

    along the lines of hunky dorey and hotsy totsy and stuff.
    
    the origin of "23 skidoo" was (from what I heard) New York City.
     Sometime around the early half of this century, the women would
    walk down 23'rd (Avenue? Street?) and when the subway went under
    them, the air would rush up through a particularly large grating
    and billow up their skirts - men would often stand around waiting
    for this to happen (after a while they probably knew the subway
    schedules) and when it did they'd shout "23 SKIDOO!"
    
    -Jody
    

    	In medieval times, the Latin based languages were classified
    into 3 groups on the basis of the word for "yes".
    
    	In Spain, Italy and Roumania, the word was "si" in the various
    dialects.
    
	In Northern France, the word was "oui", and again with various
    dialects.
    
    	Across most of what is now Southern France, and particularly
    in the region called Languedoc the word was "oc".
    
    	It is most unlikely that OK as a term of assent has anything
    to with this at all, but the derivation of "langue d' oc" is genuine.
    
    		Dave

    O.K. did come from the O.K. Club of van Buren.  When the telegraph
    was invented, A-OK was the test signal that showed that the line
    was working properly, and OK entered the language.  (Why the sequence
    AOK was significant, I don't know.  The dots and dashes in telegraphy
    don't have any particular electronic or mnemonic significance.)
    
    I heard that Hotsy-Totsy and Hunky-Dory both were nonsense phrases
    from early jazz.  Wasn't there a Hotsy-Totsy club in St. Louis?    

    "Hello" has an interesting origin.  It came from shouting "hallooo!"
    into the early telephones because the signal was so weak.

An interesting one I heard yesterday.

Apparently, Oxford or Cambridge U. in England used to only admit students
"of nobility".  The first students to be admitted that weren't of
nobility were labelled with the latin:

	sine nobilitus

(pronounced "see nay nobilitus")

This was later abbreviated to:

	snob

Any confirmation on this one ?

/Eric

    in re: HALLOOO
    
    I have read in books, though never knew for sure, that British (some?
    most? all? in the past perhaps?) will pick up a ringing telephone
    and instead of saying "hello" or "good day" will say "are you there?"
    
    I suppose it's a logical question to ask, but what do you do if
    you get a negative response?
    
    -Jody
    

    Re .42, .69 etc on the subject of testifying ...
    
    [Sorry to be so late in replying, but I have had an enforced absence
    from noting recently and am just catching up ...]
    
.42>    ... characters in the Old Testament would swear solemn oaths whilst 
.42>    holding each others' testicles. Hence the common part of testify,
.42>    testis and Testament?
    
    My understanding of this is that persons providing testimony were
    required to bear witness while holding their _own_ testicles --
    on pain (in a literal sense, I suppose) of forfeiture if they were 
    subsequently found to have committed perjury.
    
    Hence, as in .69, the idea that only adult males were capable of testifying.

    re .10:
    
	"I suppose it's a logical question to ask, but what do you do if you get
	a negative response?"
    
    Why, hang up, of course. What would you do?
    
    	Jon

              The British slang word "posh" i.e. classy is
              supposed to come from the days of the Empire
              and specifically referred to travelling to
              and from India - Port Out Starboard Home and
              had something to do with, in the days before
              air conditioning, the sun not striking those
              cabins that were situated there at the hottest
              part of the day.
    
                                              Max
              

Correct era but I heard it was on traveling through the Suez. The sun being 
very hot and predominately on one side of the ship when leaving and the other 
side when returning.

The gentry would change cabins to keep them out of the blazing sun.

Natural connection:

        Port Out, Starboard Home + the upper class = POSH = fashionable

    re: .109
    
    I was told the same story. The name of the students
    was recorded in a format like:

    	Wilhelm		(Duke of Normandy)
	Charles 	(Prince of Wales)
	
    then there was
    
    	Smith		(s.nob)
            
    By some kind of over-reaction, these students without nobility
    used to appear even more formal and eccentric than the 
    other chaps.
    
    	roger

    Re: .110
    
    > I have read in books, though never knew for sure, that British (some?
    > most? all? in the past perhaps?) will pick up a ringing telephone
    > and instead of saying "hello" or "good day" will say "are you there?"

    Come on, do us a favour! (= surely, you jest?).  We [logical] British
    answer with the exchange and number, which (a) informs the caller
    whether or not they have the right connection, and (b) does not
    give any information about who they have reached, if they misdialled.
    
    "Hello" is pretty useless (= ACK), and needs at least two more
    redundant information packets (WRU, HERE IS) to establish the
    connection :-)
    
    Jeff.
    
    PS: 'exchange' is what you I think call a 'switching office' ??
        and usually has the same name as the town, though in larger
    	cities it's 3 digits + 4 digits subscriber number (like in US)

  re .113,.114:
      
    I've come across the Port-outward-Starboard-home theory a few times,
    but have also seen several sources which deny this vehemently. So,
    it's probably an etymological myth, of which there are many, for
    example the one about "Ku Klux Klan" being derived from the sound
    of a gun being cocked (actually, it is from Gk. kyklos).
    
    Often, the more interesting a word derivation seems to be, the more
    likely it  is to be a contrived one, and hence, to be taken with
    a pinch of salt. 
                     
    --mva
    

    Don't let .-1 put a damper on this note. It may be true that
    
    >    Often, the more interesting a word derivation seems to be, the more
    > likely it  is to be a contrived one, and hence, to be taken with
    > a pinch of salt. 

    But that doesn't imply that any word derivation with an interesting
    story behind it is bound to be contrived (which .-1 didn't say,
    anyway). Try this for size:
    
    Sincere <= L sincerus [not very interesting; tedious enough to be
    			   true] 

    But etymology doesn't stop when some lexicographer chose to codify
    one form of a language.  What lies behind L. sincerus is the
    combination of two words: `sine' and `cera'.
    
    A bad carpenter filled out a poorly-made joint with wax; a good
    carpenter - who could be relied upon, even when joints weren't
    visible to a casual bystander - was `sincerus'.  He worked
    `without wax'.
    
    By the time `sincerus' found its way into a dictionary, the more
    creative speakers of Latin were calling people `sincerus' even tho'
    they weren't carpenters, as long as they could be relied upon
    to do what they did well.  Nowadays, people use `sincere'
    with nary a thought for Plastic Wood.
    
    Bob 

Re. POSH

How about the origins of the words "port" and "starboard"?

In ancient sailing vessels, the rudder was in fact a "stearing board" situated 
(as one might guess) on the right side of the ship to accomodate right-handed 
steersmen, much the same as modern day gondeliers in Venice (although those are 
also used for propulsion). Consequently, when tieing up at a pier, the ship had
to approach on its' "port" side, so as not to interfere with the operation of 
the rudder.

Dave

    In old books (no idea how old, but I'm sure the OED wd say) I've
    seen the pair `starboard/larboard'; I imagine larboard=port. Any
    ideas about the derivation?
    
    I know some sailing vessels (e.g. the old Thames barges) had a
    thing called a `lee-board', dropped down on the lee side when
    the boat was beating against the wind (a bit like the modern
    dinghy's centreboard). I wonder if this board is part of the
    story.
    
    Bob

	re .118
	Way I heard it, it was the insincere sculptor who used wax to fill 
a mistake or slip in his sculpture.
			Dave

Re .120 

<     I know some sailing vessels (e.g. the old Thames barges) had a
<     thing called a `lee-board', dropped down on the lee side when
<     the boat was beating against the wind (a bit like the modern
<     dinghy's centreboard).

Larboard [ME. laddeborde, lading side < OE. hladan, to lade + bord, side:
sp. influenced by STARBOARD] now largely replaced by PORT. 
				(New World Dictionary)

                              -< Larboard = Port >-

P.S.  Obviously, the lading side of a ship must be the side which is tied up
      to port.

Dave

    Just to change course completely and spoil your train of thought :

    Does anyone know where the word

                                Gobbledegook

                                               came from ?


    Other odd little words that my grandfather used to be very fond of :

                                Nincompoop
                                Donnard
                                Jiggery-pokery


    Well, they must have started somewhere ...........................

    re .123
    
    And here I thought it was the side of the boat on which they keep
    the decanter!
    
    	Jon

    Re: .124
    
    A little while ago I saw `gobbledygook' attributed to someone in Robert
    Gunning's _The_Technique_of_Clear_Writing_ (1966 edn, I think). I
    remember thinking at the time that the attribution was well worth
    making a note of; I also remember not making a note of it! But I have a
    feeling the man who coined the word was a (fairly recent) US
    politician. Could've been FDR: Gunning's book quoted FDR's pithy
    rewrite of some incomprehensible air-raid blackout instructions. 
    
    If you want me to track it down, it would take a while ('cos the
    library at REO doesn't keep interesting books like THAT). 
    
    b
    
    

    Whilst not wishing to denigrate Knowles' Third Theory of Things
    
    Ha ha ha
    
    Ho ho ho
    
    I would have thought that the primary target for tary Tudors to
    corrupt would have been Ingles, and so should we not look first
    for an English origin for sailors' terms? (Though, as Bob says,
    shanties provide a lot of evidence of sailors confusing Spanish
    and Dutch.)
    
    Phillip

    The etymology of "gobbledegook" is onomatopoetic:
    
    The sound that Turkeys make (!) 
    
    combined with what Turkeys leave behind:
    
    "gook" - slang, "A dirty, sludgy, or slimy substance.", Am.Heritage
    

    Still more re: .124
    
    >>> -< A change of course ..... >-

    For that you need a `gubernator' (Latin for whatever kind of steering
    mechanism they used to use).  Hence governor (the guy who steers
    the ship of state).

    Has anyone found `donnard' in a dictionary? I read once (in an
    Ivor Brown book, I think, but I can't find the reference in
    the two IB books that I've got - _A_Word_in_Your_Ear_ and
    _Just_Another_Word_) that words ending -ard in English tend
    to be pejorative: examples - bastard, coward, dullard, braggart
    (if you allow Scots). I believe the term `Spaniard' was coined
    as pejorative, during some war or other.
    
    I can think of examples that don't seem to work: custard and poinard,
    offhand. 
    	
    (Incidentally - the Ivor Brown books are a good read, if you
    can find them; but my copies are `Wartime economy standard',
    so I'd be surprised if anything of his was still in print.)

    b

    "donnard"
    
    dictionary does list donnee, the set of assumptions on which a work
    of fiction or drama proceeds, and donnish, of or relating to or
    characteristic of a  university don.
    
    Perhaps a donnard is someone with delusions of leadership (aka mafia
    "don"), or delusions of being more lofty of thought (aka university
    don).  
    
    I have also heard of "dunning" someone, when they're late paying
    their bills to kind of make 'em feel bad and pay them, but that's
    probably something different.
    
    

           If you want dunning well done try Dunn & Bradstreet.

    Re .130
    
>   Has anyone found `donnard' in a dictionary? I read once (in an

    I checked my Chambers 20th Century Dictionary last night, and it
    lists:
    
    Donnard : dull, stupid, dim witted. (Old Scottish term)
    
    Also, it can be spelt 'donnered'.
    
    Ian.

    Re: "mind your Ps and Qs" and others.  The 1988 edition of the Old
    Farmer's Almanac contains an article of interest to those who
    participated in this topic.  The article sides with the typesetter
    orgin of 'Ps and Qs.'
    
    Has anyone else read this article? If so, have you any quarrels
    with it?

    Regarding the use of "O.K.". I saw an old movie about the days of
    the old west which centered around the use of the telegraph. In
    it one character said to another "Will that be O.K.?" the 2nd 
    character replied" What do you mean, O.K.?" and the first said
    "that's telegraph talk for all right." SO I figured the the telegraph
    must have had something to do with the etymology of O.K. and I looked
    under morse code in the dictionary. O is ___ and K is _._ . Together
    they make a unique and easily recognized sound on a telegraph much
    like SOS  ... ___ ...   All this could also go along with the
    misspelled version of "all correct"  oll  korect....
    
    
    
    Steve

>                                           In the Portuguese-occupied
>    islands of M(...? either -artinique or -adagascar, my geography
>    was never up to much)

I think it's Mauritius. (No, I'm not that great of a scholar either -- I 
just had a friend from there.)
					>>>==>PStJTT

    I once had a friend from Mauritius, and he spoke French, not
    Portuguese.

    Anyone remember the comic strip, "Okey Dokes" (sp?) ???
    
    I believe that strip originated the expression, "Ok".
    
    
    

    And many years ago I read that sometime before the turn of this
    century "O.K." originated from a factory owner who used to do his
    own quality control. When a piece was brought to him, he would indicate
    his approval by putting his initials on it - O.K. Hence the origin
    of the phrase, "gave it his O.K."  The derivations, Okay and Okey
    doke, came afterward as corruptions.

    Re .141 (Neil):
    
    Yes.  I did.  And like John W. Campbell's thought that it's a
    corruption of a Scots' "Och, aye," I suspect it's too simple to
    be the case.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

re .141

>    And many years ago I read that sometime before the turn of this
>    century "O.K." originated from a factory owner who used to do his
>    own quality control. When a piece was brought to him, he would indicate
>    his approval by putting his initials on it - O.K.

That wouldn't, by any chance, be our very own "Olsen, Ken" now would it?

	Steve	:-)

    Re .136
    
    An Ode to the Noddy
    
    Said baby Tern to Mother Tern , "Can I have a brother ?" ,
    
    Said Mother Tern to baby Tern , "One good Tern deserves another".
                                               
    
    Reprinted without permission
    
    
    John J
    

According to the Castle book, "Why Do We Say It?" [no author listed, Castle is
a division of Book Sales, Inc., Secaucus NJ.]:
 
We get the expression "O.K." from the presidential election of 1840. Martin Van
Buren, the then Democratic candidate, was born in the Hudson Valley village of
Old Kinderhook. In reference to this, his followers touted Van Buren as "The
Wizard of Old Kinderhook." 

One of the support groups formed in New York City called themselves, "The
Democratic O.K. Club" and supporters in the NY area picked up the "O.K." as a
slogan. Democratic rowdies used to shout it out in attempts to break up
political rallies of the rival Whig party.

Soon afterward, O.K. became synonymous with the feeling of the original
club members that they and their candidates were "all right."

[Lending some credence to this, there is an old stunt that speakers sometimes
play with their audience to fire them up. It consists of answering every use of
"O.K." by shouting "all right" and vice versa. Try this on an unsuspecting
speaker and watch the nonplused reaction!] 

    Re: .79: 

    According the book, "Why Do We Say It?" a complete failure came to be
    called a "fiasco" because the making of a fine Venetian glass bottle
    demands perfection. If the glass blowing introduces the slightest flaw,
    the glassblower turns the bottle into a common flask -- called in
    Italian, "fiasco." 

    Re: .85: 

    Round robin. 

    In France, petitions were originally signed in a circle so that no
    single name headed the list. The term is a corruption of the French,
    "rond," meaning "round," and "ruban," meaning a "ribbon" -- the circle
    of signatures creating the impression of a "round ribbon." 

    Re: .98, .100, and .101: 

    Kit and kaboodle. 

    The Dutch word "boedel" means "effects" -- what a person owns. Robbers,
    especially housebreakers, adopted the term, calling what they stole
    "boodle." They carried their burglar's tools in a "kit." If they were
    able to enter a house, gather up everything valuable, and make a clean
    escape, they said they had gotten away with "kit and boodle."  In time
    the phrase was shortened to "kaboodle" the "ka" standing for the "kit."
    Then the "kit" was reintroduced into the phrase, probably just for
    emphasis. 

    Re: .102 & .103: 

    Hunky-dory. 

    The Low Dutch word "honk" means "safe." The word was also used to mean
    a "goal" in a game. Thus, someone who scored or who safely reached base
    in a game was said to "honk" or to be "honky."  "Dory" might have
    derived from "all right." [Do you suppose this is also why blacks call
    white folks "honkies"?] 

    Re: .104: 

    Hoochy => hooch? 

    Solders sent to Alaska, when the US acquired that territory in 1867,
    were forbidden to bring any alcoholic beverages.  So, they set up their
    own stills and brewed a very powerful drink from sugar and flour. The
    Alaskan natives called this drink "hoochinoo."  This term held until
    the gold rush to the Klondike; then "hoochinoo" was shortened to
    "hooch." 

    Re: .109 and 115 

    Snob. 

    In Scottish the word "snab" means "boy" or "servant." At one time only
    the sons of the nobility were admitted to English colleges. These
    students applied "snab" in the sense of "servant" to the townsmen.  The
    word "snab" changed to "snob" in the 1600s when Cambridge University
    started admitting commoners as students, requiring them to describe
    their social position with the Latin words "Sine Nobilitate" (without
    nobility). The student abbreviated this to "S. Nob." When spoken, this
    seemed so much like the word "snab" it came to be written "snob" and
    used to signify "a pretender to position." 

    In Britain today, the `tabloid' newspapers are the small-format ones.
    
    Before `tabloid' was understood as referring to format, some newspaper
    proprietor, in the 1920's I think, launched a small-format paper saying
    it would give the news `in tabloid form'. This was a reference to a
    word that the pill people Burroughs & Wellcome [sp?] had registered as
    a `special name', which they applied to medical preparations given as
    pills (which were also a new thing). A B&W medicine `in tabloid form'
    took up less room and was more convenient than a British Standard
    snake-oil bottle. 

    The word `tabloid' refers now almost exclusively to newspaper formats,
    and more recently has become a generic noun - `the tabloids' -
    which implies something about those publications' content as
    well as their format.

    bob

    Back to the previous discussion of 'testify' (testimony etc ...)
    vs 'testicles'.
    
    The first series derives from Lat testis,-tis (witness)
    and the second from testis,-tis (testicles). The 2 Latin
    words are perfect homographs, but have apparently nothing to
    do with each other.
    
    In other words, the theory explained in a previous reply
    about biblical oaths may be true - or not.
    
  	roger

    re -.1 and others, I can't resist quoting this passage from Anthony
    Smith's excellent book, "The Body". He is discussing a rather special
    test which used to be applied to candidates for the Papacy.
    
    				-
    
    "A special chair was fashioned, one of which is in the Louvre, that
    had a horseshoe shaped seat, much like the old birth-stool, upon
    which the Pope would allegedly sit. The Cardinals would pass by,
    checking the papal possession and proclaiming 'Testiculos habet
    et bene pendentes' I failed to learn when this particular adjunct
    to the initiation ceremony was dropped ... "
 
				-
    
    Smith doesn't translate the Latin, guessing, I suppose, that an 
    English speaking readership would get the general idea without 
    too much difficulty.
    
    -- brian

    re .-1
    
    This tradition started after the function had been usurped
    by a woman (Jeanne); it is considered essential to check
    that the newly elected Pope is a man. According to what 
    I read several times in various books, the tradititional
    sentence would be slightly more precise:
    
    	"Duas habet, et bene pendentes !"
    
    and this ceremony is still carried nowadays.

    	roger

    Another maritime one:
    
    pinna (latin, `feather') diverged three ways (triverged?)
    
    =>  pinnace (a thin - at a push `feather-shaped' - boat)

    =>	pen (`quill')
    
    =>  pinnacle
    
    The `pinnacle' derivation only just occurred to me, and I shouldn't be
    surprised if the root's either something like `pinnacula' (tiny
    little feather) or nothing at all to do with `pinna'. But the `pen' and
    `pinnace' ones are kosher. 

    Re .recent_replies
    
    I wonder if `bene pendentes' is the origin of the expression
    `well-hung'.
    
    Word association:
    
    The `tiny little feather' idea reminds me of a bit in Flann O'Brien,
    where a sharp end is described as `not the point, just the beginning
    of the sharp bit' [maybe this aside belongs in note 396].

    b

    re .150:
    
    Actually, it is much older than that, and comes about for a different
    reason. In the very old days (around 200-400 CE), some Christians were
    very much concerned with chastity and celibacy. It was about this time
    that Jerome said, "the only thing good about marriage is that it
    produces virgins," and Tertullian muttered that the ends did not
    justify the means. 
    
    Some monks, in order to remove temptation, castrated themselves. For
    reasons that I can't remember, the Church decided that this was not a
    good thing, and to force monks to deal with their temptation instead of
    finessing it, said that people with damaged genitals cannot enter
    heaven. Since it would be poor form to have a Pope who can't enter
    heaven, the examination is necessary.
    
    	Jon

    A seasonal one.
    
    Shrove Tuesday => before Lenten fasting and abstinence => goodbye meat
    => carni [carnem] val [vale]
    
    It won't be long before that derivation needs another explanatory step
    at the beginning: Pancake Day => Shrove Tuesday.  But not in French, 
    which gives us the name of one particular carnival - mardi gras. 
    
    b

    This looks like as good a place as any to ask the question.
    
    Does anyone have any ideas, theories, SWAG's, or even factual
    references as to the origin of the term "Juke Box" as it applies
    to a coin-operated record player, usually found in lower class
    eating establishments or amusement hangouts?
    
    The only theory I can come up with is that perhaps someone with
    the initials J.K. put together such a contraption and labelled it
    as a "JK Box" with subsequent corruption to "Juke Box".
    
    Any other ideas?
    
    Roy

re: "Juke Box"

My DEC-issue paperback American Heritage gives

	[ < earlier *juke house*, a brothel.]

Of course, it gives no etymology for juke house...


Larry

Reminds me, jazz is supposed to come from Jezebel music, or whore house 
music.


I went to a lecture on english dialect the other day, which said that a 
hole in a fence was a thurl which corrupted to trill, and thus a nose trill 
or nostril.


Jerry

    from Webster's 9th new collegiate dictionary:
    
    Jukebox:  noun, Gullah "juke" or disorderly, of W. African origin;
    akin to Bambara "dzugu" or wicked; (1939)...
    
    there y'are...
    
    -Jody
    

    

    Jazz was originally jass, and the term was used in New Orleans when
    jazz was played in brothels, where people went for some jass, as
    in fornication.
    
    Alternative story (ville?) is that the term was current in New York,
    and jazz originally went down there (ahem) like a lead balloon;
    the less than enthusiastic listeners said it was a lot of jass.
    
    I blame Dipper Mouth for a lot, personally, but that's another
    conference.
    
    E7

Thought for the day:

The standard distress call

                                   MAYDAY!!

Does it come from the French for "Help me":

                                  M'AIDEZ!!

	Steve

    > Does it come from the French for "Help me":
    >
    >                             M'AIDEZ!!

    So I've always been led to believe.  Though it would have taken
    an Englishman to make such a mess of the French :-)
    
    Jeff.

    Airplane pilots are supposed to say "Mayday!" when they are inm
    distress.  When they don't want to declare an emergency, but want
    to get some attention because things are getting a little tense
    in the cockpit, they're supposed to say, "Pan, pan, pan."
    
    If "Mayday" comes from "I need help,"  does "pan" come from "bread"?
    
    I've heard of aircraft doing rolls, but ....
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    P.S.:  When I was learning to fly, I heard the origin of "Mayday,"
           but never of "pan."
    
           And, no: I don't think it had anything to do with that goatish
           character who played on pipes....

    Perhaps it has something to do with the three motions of an aircraft,
    you know, pan, tilt and zoom. :-)
    
    Jeff.

    
    No, it's the other way around: "M'aidez" originates from the french
    trying to say "Mayday", which is probably of anglo-celtic origin
    meaning "I'm coming down faster than I really want".

    From the description of _pan_ as things being tense in the cockpit
    as opposed to danger could it not be an acronym for Pilot Awfully
    Nervous :-)
    
    Roger

    Any offers?
    
    Dextrous means nimble finguered, and I imagine it comes from L.
    dexter (?) meaning right. Ambidextrous - two right sides?
    
    Phew!  Shed me some light, O Joyoflexers...
    
    Phillip

    If I recall, "ambos" is the Greek for "both". If so, another
    bastardised construct.

    In what way is it bastardized? Why is mixing Greek and Latin particles
    wrong? It never bothered the Romans.
    
    	Jon

    Perhaps "bastardised" was the wrong word. Although many examples
    can be found, such constructs are somewhat frowned upon in English
    English by purists.

    The U.S. is pretty well immune to the phenomenon of mixed-breeding,
    cross-breeding, half_breeding, not only in regard to ancestral heritage
    but in the agricultural and horticultural arena as well.  Likewise,
    our language is derived from similar diverse roots, and it is not
    uncommon to see words constructed with prefixes, roots, and suffixes
    from varying origins.
    
    Perhaps the British English purists should consider the mixture
    from which "their" language was derived before judging its "purity".

    Well, one person's purist is another's pointy-head. In the seventeenth
    and eighteenth century, a bunch of "purists" (if you will) came up with
    a bunch of rules that lots of later grammarians and linguists don't
    care for. Not splitting infinitives, not ending sentences with
    prepositions, all these little rules that seventh-grade English
    teachers have spouted at us -- mostly because their seventh-grade
    English teachers spouted them at them. These days, these rules are
    regarded as yet another instance of trying to make the world fit a nice
    theory instead of making a nice theory to fit the world. 

    Another of these bizarre little rules is that you shouldn't mix Greek
    and Latin roots, for some unspecified reason -- probably simply foolish
    consistency. 
    
    The interesting thing about this rule is that the ostensible reason for
    it is in direct contradiction for the others. The rationale for the
    other bizarre rules is the idea that for some reason, Latin is the
    perfect language, and that since you can't (say) split an infinitive in
    Latin (because it's a single word) you shouldn't in English. However,
    the Romans mixed Greek with Latin in an almost gleeful abandon. Their
    guiding rule was aesthetic, the rule of euphony. Roots should be mixed
    so that they sound best. 
    
    My own linguistic sensibilities are guided by my sense of style. I want
    my words to sound good. That's about it. I don't care if a word is a
    "neologism." When I'm feeling cynical, I think that a neologism is a
    word that was invented after the Norman Conquest. In my more charitable
    moods, I think that it's simply what one calls a word one hasn't heard
    before as a face-saving measure. It doesn't bother me that a word is
    conjured if it has a use and it sounds good -- sounding good being more
    important than use. 
    
    In one of her essays on language, Sayers said that the English language
    is the most powerful and expressive language since the Age of Pericles.
    I agree, and I prefer not to artificially handicap it. 
    
    	Jon

    Re .167
    
>>       In what way is it bastardized? Why is mixing Greek and Latin particles
>>       wrong? It never bothered the Romans.
    
    But to the Romans, that wasn't mixing two earlier languages. (-:
    
    Languages will change.  However, it would be nice if in the future
    we could still read old notes without requiring an interpreter!

   re. 170
        
>        In one of her essays on language, Sayers said that the English language
>    is the most powerful and expressive language since the Age of Pericles.

     How about opening a new note where you would give us some examples
     demonstrating how the English language is more "powerful" and
     "expressive" than any other language ?
        
     Now back to "intriguing etymologies". How about "chauvinism" ?
     I read that this word derives from the name of Nicolas Chauvin,
     a character in a 19th century play; he is a fanatic admirer
     of Napoleon, and is obsessed by the glory of hi country.
    
     The French are the best is the world for inventing the word
     chauvinism.
    
    	roger

    The point concerning the mixing of Greek and Latin roots in the
    same word, is that it's usually avoidable.  Take one neologism:
    "quadraphonic".  So what is wrong with "tetraphonic"?  To me it
    sounds nicer, simply because it's consistent.  Even then, it's a
    non-logical extension of "stereophonic".
    
    Jeff (being unusually :-) pedantic)
    

    Re several; sorry I've been out of touch.
    
    Ambidextrous - yup; and it _does_ derive from Greek and Latin,
    as does `television'.  Besides, what's wrong with bastards?
    Though not one myself, genealogically speaking, I reckon it
    must be centuries since bastardy implied mal-formedness.
    Anyway, words like that aren't really bastards (born of
    parents [languages] that aren't married [linguistically related]);
    they're of mixed blood.  Is there a Master Race with which
    others shouldn't mix?
    
    I agree with Jeff, tho', about `quadraphonic'.  Similarly, I
    winced when the television showed a new group of sports called
    `the quadrathlon'. I'm not saying `quattuor' is Latin and
    `athletes' is Greek and never the twain shall meet; but with
    two obvious and clear analogies already in the sports vocab.
    (decathlon and heptathlon), why not coin the term `tetrathlon'?
    
    Re `pan':
    
    A sudden thought; if Mayday is strangled French (I seem to remember
    hearing somewhere that thinking of Mayday as derived from m'aidez
    [sorry Roger ;-)] was just an aide memoire like thinking of SOS as
    being derived from Save Our Souls) `pan' might derive from `panne' -
    breakdown.
    
    Bob 

>    A sudden thought; if Mayday is strangled French (I seem to remember
>    hearing somewhere that thinking of Mayday as derived from m'aidez
>    [sorry Roger ;-)] was just an aide memoire like thinking of SOS as
>    being derived from Save Our Souls) `pan' might derive from `panne' -
>    breakdown.
    
...Maybe implying "Breaker, good buddy" from the CB folks? :-)

Now, I've flown as a civilian and also with the US military and I've 
never heard of this "Pan, pan, pan" thing.  So I asked my mother who 
flew in the early days as a civilian and ferried bombers from the US to 
Europe in WWII, and she's never heard of it.  Then I asked my brother 
who is currently flying for one of the largest air freight companies, 
and he's never heard of it either.  Where did you ever hear of it? Are 
you outside the US?  Was it long ago?

To me, it sounds like someone too scared to say "Panic!"  Personally, 
although I always had good luck and never had to declare an emergency, I 
always figured if the time came, I'd use the Ralph Cramden call; 
"Humminah, humminah, humminah..." ;-)
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Re .175 (PStJTT):
    
>............................. Where did you ever hear of it? Are 
>you outside the US?  Was it long ago?
    
    Last time I looked, it was in the _Airman's Information Manual_
    distributed by the FAA.  It certainly was current whenm I started
    flying about a dozen years ago, too.
    
>..................................... So I asked my mother who 
>flew in the early days as a civilian and ferried bombers from the US to 
>Europe in WWII, and she's never heard of it.
 
    Your mother was a W.A.S.P.?  Send her my compliments.  The W.A.S.P.s
    were the most overworked, underappreciated, and underrated group
    of pilots during World War II.   They even did some test piloting.

    Also, your brother might like to check the latest AIM; unlikely
    as it might be, there's always the possibility that might come up
    as a question on his BFR.
    
    ... But this isn't FLYING.NOT, so ...
    
 >...Maybe implying "Breaker, good buddy" from the CB folks? :-)

    When I was in school, my radio-ham friends used to say "Break, break,"
    if they wanted to enter a transmission already established between
    two stations, which may be where the "breaker" of the CBers 
    derived from.  In that sense, it would be different from "pan, pan,
    pan," which is more of a "may I have your attention, please" kind
    of transmission: it doesn't assume an active interchange between
    other stations on the frequency.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.      

    Re: .175
    
>>   I always figured if the time came, I'd use the Ralph Cramden call; 
>>   "Humminah, humminah, humminah..." ;-)
    
    Hmmm.  Maybe you should take that and start a "Famous Last Words"
    topic! (-:
    
    Dan

    re: .173
    
    Is a polyradical a parrot that supports Jesse Jackson??????
    
    --bonnie

    re .179		:-)
    
    
    I have a couple of questions. Why is it "cloud nine" and "seventh
    heaven" ?
    
    Cheers,							Steve

      Re .180
      
    >I have a couple of questions. Why is it "cloud nine" and "seventh
    >heaven" ?
      
      Because those expressions have been in use since day one.  :-)

      Dave C.

    Re .180, .181:
    
    "Cloud nine" and "seventh heaven" are indirectly derived from alchemy
    and numerology.  Seven and nine are both supposed to be potent numbers
    (e.g., "the seventh son of a seventh son" is supposed to have [pardon
    me] second sight).  Nine is three times three (three threes); three
    is supposed to be a very potent number (as in the Trinity).  Thus,
    "seventh heaven" is the complete, utmost heaven (the Heaven after
    the Creater had finished - or the highest state).  "Cloud nine"
    is as high as one can reach in happiness -- the pinnacle, as being
    the completion of the third three of tiers of elevation.
    
    FWIW, "quintessence" comes from the same sources: it's what's left
    after five distillations of a liquid; supposedly, that left it
    ultra-pure for the days of the alembic.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Dante's Paradise had nine levels; did he actually use the term
    'cloud nine'?  It sounds rather un-Dantean.  

    I was under the impression that 'seventh heaven' was the Islamic
    term for the same concept -- the circle of paradise that's
    closest to God. 
    
    --bonnie

    I don't know if it can be shown whether or not it comes by way of
    Dante. It's in many ways such an obvious thing to think of -- three
    teirs, levels, clouds, whatever, for each of Father, Son, and Ghost
    that it could *easily* be simply parallel evolution. 
    
    	Jon

    Here's a new one, prompted by an abuse I heard attributed to our
    dear Pry Mincer on the radio this morning.
    
    Like `ibi' (there, in that place) and `ubi' (where, in which place)
    the Latin `alibi' related to place: it meant `in another place'.
    Hence the `alibi' defence: the defendant can't have done it because
    he/she was somewhere else. Hence the noun - someone having an `alibi'.
    
    Too many people I've heard lately treat `alibi' as a synonym for
    `excuse'. I'm not saying `Alibi was an adverb of place in some
    obscure dead language, so that's the way it must stay'. I'm just
    observing that `alibi' in the sense of `not guilty because elsewhere'
    has a useful sense missed by `excuse'.
    
    b

    Someone said this to me when I asked why something was late in being
    delivered.
    
    Anyone have any ideas where it comes from?
    
    Roger
    

    Dunno where it comes from, but "Don't get your knickers in a twist"
    is a popular saying over here.
    
    Another thing - the British only wear shorts in the summer.
    (Linguistic joke)
    
    Jeff.

    Re: .189
    
    >  Dunno where it comes from, but "Don't get your knickers in a twist"
    >  is a popular saying over here.
    
    >  Another thing - the British only wear shorts in the summer.
    
    
    Most Americans hardly ever wear "knickers"!
    
    [Of course I'm referring to those trousers that have a buttoned cuff 
    just below the knees and are usually worn with knee-length stockings
    a la Ben Franklin.]    
    
    However, most men over here do wear [under]shorts as a common practise.
    We also have walking shorts, athletic shorts, Bermuda shorts, etc.
    which are all considered outerwear.
    
    I believe the British usage of "knickers" is pretty much akin to
    the American "skivvies".  Now, does anyone have any idea where that
    term came from?

    Doesn't "don't get your shorts in a knot" come from Vergil, who
    also gave us the immortal phrase, "ubi, o ubi est meam sub ubi?"
    
    	Jon

    The word "skivvies" would have to mean any non-military clothing,
    i.e., it's what the skivilians wore. (-:

    in re .191
    
    I remember seeing a sign once saying semper ubi, sub ubi :-)
    
    I *love* bilingual puns
    
    Bonnie

    G'day,
    
    A lady at a wedding thought that 'semper fedalis' was a lovely thought
    to have.
    
    It was, I think, an English comedian who started the - don't get
    your knickers in a knot - almost as bad as the nudge,nudge,
    wink,wink,say_no_more  from an advert for a candy bar.
    
    I saw the reference to 'knickers' being long trousers for men -
    presumeably from ' knickerbockers' - In the UK we would know them
    as plus-fours.
    
    
    What would the 'average' American make of 
    'I saw a Vicar in his shorts in the outback' - a not unlikely event
    in Australia?
    
    Derek
    

    A skivvy in the dialect of S. Lancashire at least is someone who
    does a meanial job.
    
    Phillip

  I guess the more graphic version American version of "don't get your
  knickers..." would be "don't get your bowels in an uproar."  Any more
  "don't get..."s?  Fodder for a new note?

  JP

    Some questions from various friends both within and without Dijiddle:
    
    Aubergine = egg plant.
    I maintain I know the etymology of egg plant, but assembled members
    of the Pudding Committee (Remember them?) and others all doubted
    my word. I shall not give my version here, will someone else give
    theirs?
    
    The clarinet is based on an older instrument, the chalumeau. Is
    there another name for chalumeau? We vaguely remember the term schalmy,
    and are not confused by shawm. Any offers?
    
    Tin Pan Alley is now more a concept than anything else. Was it
    originally a real place, and if so where?
    
    Thank you, O Joyoflexibles!
    
    Phillip
    

    re musical instruments:
    
    The shawm is not a precursor to the clarinet, but to the oboe and its
    relatives. Near as I know, the single reed instruments come from a
    different taxonomic line, from central European folk instruments.
    Composers didn't really write for the clarinet before Mozart. After
    then, it made its way into the orchestra. 
    
    	Jon

    Re: .197
    
    Tin Pan Alley was never the name of a street, but it was a real
    place.  The name refers to an area of New York City that contained
    most of the songwriters, promoters, and publishers of popular music.
    The name also referred to the collection of individuals and companies
    associated with popular music.  The era was probably 1910 to 1940.
    
    Bernie

  Erudition is rife in this topic -- maybe one of you can answer a poser 
  someone gave me last week:  How did "gravy" come to mean things like
  "profit" and "goodness," e.g., "on the gravy train," and "that's all
  gravy."  Gravy is nice but why not stuffing?  Or mustard?

  JP 

These days we think of gravy as something that is made with these pan
drippings and something else, like four and stock.  But the original
meaning of gravy is just the pan drippings themselves. 

"Gravy" in the sense of something free comes from the fact that gravy 
itself is free.  Unlike stuffing or mustard, which you have to buy and 
work to add to the meal. When you cook a roast, the gravy appears as if 
by magic in the pan around the meat. 

Some one more erudite than myself will have to tell why it's a "gravy 
train" and not a gravy boat.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    A new employee recently emigrated from across the pond reminded
    me of an interesting word. I knew of it before hand but not its
    origins. Maybe one of our British noters can help.
    
    What is the etymology of _loo_ for water closet, bathroom, etc?

    > What is the etymology of _loo_ for water closet, bathroom, etc?
    
    It's a joc. abb. (to use OED-speak) for Waterloo (Belg. pl. n.).
    Initially used in those very polite circles that don't have bodily
    functions.  Now in common use among lesser mortals.
    
    Jeff.

    -1 is a very credible explanation, but not one I've heard before.
    
    The story I got was that, once upon a time in the land of Nog, people
    used to empty chamber pots (or jerries!) out of their upstairs windows
    into the open sewer in the Elizabethan street below. Now, as we
    all know, Elizabethan chamber maids were wont to speak French when
    they went about their work, and, to give a warning to passers-by
    thwy would shout "A l'eau!" This became corrupted to "a loo" and
    the rest is history.
    
    Pity the poor passer-by who didn't speak French and mis-heard "'Allo!"
    On looking up, his world took on a different hue.
    
    I would have expected the chamber maids to shout something like
    "Watch aht, I'm emptying the pot!" (or something), but the Elizabethans
    were indeed cultured.
    
    Phillip

    Nothing etymological here.
    I'm reminded of the first time I heard the term.  Two characters in a
Monty Python sketch were discussing budgies.  In spite of the advice contained
in the book _How to Put Your Budgie Down_, one "woman" flushed hers down the
loo.  The sketch degenerated (what else?) into a story concerning huge flocks
of soiled budgies flying around invading personal freedoms, or some such.
    In honor of the term, I once wrote a poem which I intended to post in a
nearby ... uhh ... facility, complaining about the smoking some folks did
while enthroned therein.  The piece is, alas, lost to the world, but it
concluded with the thought "So, please clean up your ash!".  But, that's
neither here nor     there.

     On PBS a British tv import one character made the statement "...don't
    tell him, he'll go all spam about it...". I was curious as to the
    origins of "going spam". Seems to be a term like our "going bannanas"
    to indicate getting very angry. Spam here in the U.S. is a meat
    by-product loaf sold by Hormel under the brandname SPAM. 
    (and please not Monty Python comments about spam).    

    and while we are on the subject as it were...has anyone ever
    explained in this conference how 'booking it' has come to mean
    run or move fast?
    
    Bonnie

    re .207, "spam"
    
    It may be totally unconnected, but my near - teenage sons both used to
    use the word "spam" as slang for forehead. Thus, older males appearing
    on TV with receding hairlines are greeted with "Geez, check that
    spam!!!". Personally, I've never heard it used in any such context on
    TV - but then I don't watch that much anyway. 
    
    That was about a year ago. Then, in the way of ever - changing slang
    fashion, "spam" became "slap" (playground games?) for a while.
    
    I think they call it the forehead now.

    -- brian

Not exactly a common word, but certainly an interesting origin.

When he was a boy, David was a great fan of Mick Jagger. Then he discovered
that 'jagger' is an old English word for a knife, so when he began his career
as a musician he called himself:

		David Bowie



Well, I thought it was interesting. I've often wondered where some groups names
come from - there must be some curious explanations for some of them.

	Steve

    My daughter tells me that the reason David Bowie decided to change
    his name (he was David Jones before) is that when he started his
    career in the late sixties, there was already another Davy Jones
    who was more famous.
    
    What, you don't remember Davy Jones?  You know, the Monkees?
    
    And then there's the Thompson Twins, who chose that name because
    "None of us is named Thompson and we aren't Twins."
    
    --bonnie

    Also the names of two detectives (?) appearing in Tintin - in English
    at least.  In French they are known as Dupont (correct me Roger
    if I'm wrong) brothers.

    
    re. -1
    
    Actually they are Dupond and Dupont.  They aren't brothers, even
    though they are look-alikes. There is no way to recognize 
    which of them has the d, and which has the t. 

    Other characters sometimes call them collectively "les Dupondt"
    
    	roger

    Why do Americans talk about 'real estate'? Where does this come
    from?
    
    Ian.

>    Why do Americans talk about 'real estate'? Where does this come
>    from?
    
It's from our legal profession's definition of "real."  To a lawyer (at 
least in the US) something that is "real" is something that can't be 
moved.  Most of your estate (posessions) is made up of either 
intangibles or things that can be moved.  But your "real estate" is 
those posessions that can't be moved -- like land or buildings. (OK, 
it's possible to move a building, but it's considered unlikely that you 
will.)
					>>>==>PStJTT

    	I once saw a newspaper report of an English family that had
    one of these wood frame houses that you can put together in sections,
    and they went on holiday for a couple of weeks, and when they came
    back it had been stolen.
    
    	I suppose that would make it unreal estate. The newspaper did
    not say if they were insured against theft.

    There is a local (Massachusetts) realtor named "Realty World".
    For a long time, whenever I'd see one of their signs, I'd have
    to look twice to make sure that it didn't say "Reality World".
    
    --- jerry

    Re .217 (Jerry):
    
    >For a long time, whenever I'd see one of their signs, I'd have
    >to look twice to make sure that it didn't say "Reality World".
     
    Reality?  In Massachusetts?!?  :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    That reminds me of the time that I drove by a house where
    the inhabitants wrote resumes for people...only 
    
    I read the sign RESUME WRITING.... as I would a highway sign...
    
    Bonnie

    I know this is rather late, but I just started reading this file.
    I don't see a response to a question posed in .86 so let me
    give you the version I have.
    
> Has anyone ever heard such an expression as "mind your sixes and sevens?"
    
    I seem to recall that this is a reference to the last two pick-ups
    in a game of jacks. (Ones, twos, threes..., sixes and sevens)
    Thus "mind your sixes and sevens" means be very careful, and
    "at sixes and sevens" means at the most difficult spot or
    something like that.
    
    Randy

>    It's from our legal profession's definition of "real."  To a lawyer (at 
>    least in the US) something that is "real" is something that can't be 
>    moved.  Most of your estate (posessions) is made up of either 
>    intangibles or things that can be moved.  But your "real estate" is 
>    those posessions that can't be moved -- like land or buildings. (OK, 
>    it's possible to move a building, but it's considered unlikely that you 
>    will.)

    So that's it; I'd often wondered, and assumed it was a relic of
    the (Spanish) colonial past - some system whereby the King of
    Spain owned all the land, so it was `propiedad real' (in which
    `real' could translate as `royal'. But that was just a guess.
    
    Incidentally, Spanish still distinguishes between moveable
    property (muebles - furniture) and the fixed sort (inmueble -
    a building).
    
    Note - Spanish spellings best before 7 June 1974.
    
    re: .220
    
    I remember (many moons ago) games of Jacks coming in little
    bags marked `Jacks or Fivestones'; which would seem to rule
    out a sixth or seventh doofer. But in those games there were
    _ten_ things you had to pick up.  Was there a version that
    used only seven?
    
    b

    Yesterday was Shrove Tuesday, so I pigged out on pancakes in time
    honoured fashion.  Where does the phrase come from?  What is a Shrove?
    
    Ian.

    Shrove comes from "scrive" , to confess. It seems confession was
    even *more* desirable before Lent.
    
    My understanding is that a feast towards the end of Winter predates
    Christianity ? I seem to remember the custom was to use up the nice
    bits in the food store in a feast. Thus the concept of Lent predates
    Christianity ?
    
    Have we had "son of a gun" yet ?   I am afraid Hollywood Westerns
    cannot claim this one !
    
    DejW
    

    >Have we had "sun of a gun" yet....
    
    Can't remember seeing it, but I heard it was an old English Royal
    Navy term, used to describe sea faring folk. A couple of stories
    spring to mind about the old gun-carriages for the cannons being
    used for 'deliveries' (babies that is..) at sea! Another was that
    the old sea-dogs were so 'hard' that it was felt they were born
    in the barrel of a gun (/cannon).
    
    This may be all completely off-mark (!), but it did seem to make
    sense to me: still, it is the middle of the week!
    
    R|tch^d

    My nautical dictionary says that son of a gun came from the UK Royal
    Navy in 18/19 Cent.  Due to high level of pressed men in the crews
    shore leave was not common, unless the shore was a very small island.
    ( Pressing meant going round the UK in a press gang and "arresting"
    free men. Faced with the business end of a knife most volunteered
    into service.)              
                                
    Anyway, because there was no shore leave and men were men, women
    were allowed on to RN ships in port as "wives". Some ships were
    in port for long periods. As gunners slept by their guns, so did
    the women. When children were born, they were "sons of guns".
                                
    Also from the RN, the bitter end, the toast to the Admiral, sailing
    close to the wind etc etc   
                                
                                

    Re .223
    
    Shrove from `scrive'? Why not from the perfectly good (and current -
    in some circles) `shrive'? (maybe `scrive' was a typo; if so,
    apologies).
    
    Incidentally, `shrive' means `confess' in the sense `hear the
    confession of [and grant absolution]'.  Hence `short shrift' -
    which [originally] meant `absolution given in word but not
    in spirit'.
    
    Re Shrove Tuesday:
    
    When I was at primary school the story was that pancakes were a
    reference to the practice of fasting and abstinence.  During Lent
    a God-fearing Christian couldn't eat eggs or fat [`gras' - hence Mardi
    Gras] so the only thing to do with any eggs or fat you had left in
    the larder the day before Ash Wednesday was to mix them up with
    flour. `Carnival' [flesh farewell] is involved too.
    
    I have a feeling that ashes were mentioned in the confessional.
    At the Ash Wednesday service the priest says (again and again)
    `Remember, man, that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return.'
    
    Re .1
    
    I once, with a friend, tried compiling a list of nautical figures of speech.
    The game lost its novelty after the first 30 or 40. This could be an
    idea for a note.
    
    b

        It was very close.

        Where did "nip and tuck" come from?

        	Mike

    That's a tailor's expression if I remember rightly ...

        Someone suggested it came from Plastic Surgeons! 8^{

    Talking about words meaning work, the French word travail
    derives from Latin "tripalium". Tripalium ("three stakes") was 
    an horrible supplice, some sort of crucifixion.

    As often the case, the etymology confirms a piece of popular
    wisdom (work may be painful and detrimental to your health).

     roger

    Speaking of travail: there's a French word `labourer' - to plough
    [all right you lot, plow]. When English (which had the perfectly
    good Anglo-Saxon word `work') borrowed `labour', that's what it meant.
    
    Come the Industrial Revolution, English no longer needed the
    distinction; there was still, and still is, agriculture - but
    not on any significant scale.  And socialists wanted a fancy
    word to describe what the working classes did. So `labour'
    lost any agricultural flavour it once had.
    
    In France, where some huge percentage of the population [40%?]
    are still involved in agricultural production, `labourer' still
    means the same as the Latin `laborare'.
    
    Incidentally Roger, as you may already know, we have in English
    the (rarely used) word `travail' /tra'veil/, with a meaning quite 
    like the origin of the French `travail'.
    
    b

    re .-1
    
    Yes, French still uses 'labour' in the agricultural sense.
    The doublon 'labeur' is work in general, but the word now sounds
    rather old-fashioned, and a bit emphatic.
   
     roger

    Do you know of an etymology for the English word "condom" ?
    
    I read a very credible one yesterday, but it is satanic.

     roger    

    Re .233 (Roger):
    
    >I read a very credible one yesterday, but it is satanic.
    
    Given that, an educated guess --
    
    Some satanic ceremonies are said by pronouncobng words backwards.
    
    "Condom" backwards is "modnoc."  Spklit that, "mod," as any engineer
    will attest, means "modify"; "noc" is a variant for "knock," as
    in "knock up," meaning "to get one pregnant."  Presumably, wearing
    a device that would impair, or prevent, a pregnancy, would be to
    modify the knocking-up process; thus, "mod-noc[k]," which would
    evolve to "modnoc," which, when spelled backwards ... :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    re .-1 	Close, but no cigar
    
    According to an author (Yves Navarre), "condom" is simply
    the name of Condom (just like "sandwich" is the name of Sandwich).
    
    Condom is a charming little city in South-West France. During the 
    Middle-Ages, the place was famous as a centre for the industry 
    of contraceptives (they used various sort of devices for that purpose).
    
    Condom was also one of the major stopovers for the pilgrims from all
    over Europe walking towards St Jacques de Compostelle, the sacred city 
    in the Spanish Pyrenees.

    The pilgrimage meant a big concentration of monks and nuns in the
    city several times in the year, hence the development of the 
    contraceptive industry by some early marketers.
     

    Condom still exists today; not sure if they still manufacture 
    contraceptives, but they do have a good Rugby team.
    
     roger

I remember in the late 60's when Dick Sommers used to be the late night DJ on
WBZ that he started a campaign stating that the Earl of Sandwich actually did
not invent/discover the practice of putting meat between slices of bread. 
According to Sommers, he stole the idea from a friend, the Earl of Shrewsbury.
So actually we should be calling a 'sandwich' a 'shrewsbury'. Anyone else 
remember that? Think there's any truth to it?

Pete

    I came across a fascinating derivation of "ostracism" in Herodotus.
    
    The word derives from the Greek "ostrakon", meaning a piece of broken
    pottery. Apparently, the democracy of pre-Periclean Athens (about 600
    BC) devised a rather more humane way of disposing of political
    troublemakers than simply disembowelling them. Members of the Assembly
    were allowed to nominate people who were felt to be causing trouble for
    an extended period of exile (possibly, but not necessarily, permanent).
    If such a nomination was accepted, the Assembly would vote in secret
    ballot upon the question of exiling the luckless nominee.
    
    Now, although parchment was available at this time, most day to day
    written transactions were done on clay tablets. The secret ballot of
    the Assembly was therefore conducted on the Athenian equivalent of
    scrap paper - pieces of broken pottery. To be ostracised was therefore
    to be exiled by vote of the ostrakon.
    
    On a related subject, does anyone know the derivation of the expression
    "sent to Coventry"? Having been to Coventry, I can understand why you'd
    be happy to send your worst enemy there, but can anyone elucidate?
    
    Chris

    Having stayed in Coventry for a few days (DECUS last year), I am
    no wiser about the term. Coventry is, of course, famous for Lady
    Godiva, the wife of the 11th (?) century Earl Leofric of Coventry,
    who rode naked through the town on a dare from her husband (to grant
    the peasants extra land if I recall). This gave the phrase "peeping
    Tom" - all the townspeople did not look at her as she rode with
    exception of PT. He had his arms cut off as a punishment (I think
    he died of starvation - there is a wooden replica of him in the
    hotel I stayed in - name escapes me).

    Another Greek one - .239 reminded me. `Sycophant' comes from words
    meaning `fig' [sykos] and `show' [ not sure of the word, but ultimately
    derived from [phainomai - `I seem/appear' (whence `diaphanous')].
    
    Stories differ about how the derivation works; a sycophant was either
    someone who presented the object of their sycophancy with a selection
    of luscious fruit, or the prized thing offered was the shadiest sitting
    position in the agora [market place/open space - whence `agoraphobia']
    - underneath a fig tree.
    
    b

    I've been thinking about it overnight, and I seem to recall now that
    the phrase may have its origins in trade union history. Being "sent to
    Coventry" was the fate of a worker who had somehow transgressed against
    the union. Since the union had no direct power to have a man dismissed,
    they could at least demonstrate their disapproval by not speaking to
    him.
    
    However, I'm no closer to understanding why Coventry should be the
    chosen place of exile.
    
    Chris
    

    With regard to Lady Godiva, legend has it that her ride was not a dare
    by her husband, but her own protest against the heavy taxes that he
    imposed on the local inhabitants. 
    
    Beats dropping tea into the harbour, if you ask me.
    
    Chris

    Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable offers two possible
    derivations.
    
    The inhabitants of Coventry were reputed to be not at all fond of
    soldiers. If a local woman was seen talking to a soldier, she would be
    shunned by the locals. Soldiers posted to the area were therefore
    unlikely to see much in the way of (social) intercourse.
    
    The Duke of Clarendon's history of the English civil war records that
    loyalist prisoners taken in Birmingham were sent to Coventry to be held
    for ransom.
    
    You pays your money and you takes your choice.
    
    Chris

    Back in .126 I said I'd track down Gunner's attribution of the first
    use of `gobbledygook'. I've now found it in another Gunner book
    (he seems to have repeated a lot of his more saleable material -
    in this case in a book entitled _Principles_of_Clear_Newswriting_ -
    a private edition printed in 1946).
    
    The attribution is on p. 75:
    
    "Maury Maverick of Texas, who invented the term `gobbledygook' ..."
    
    b
    

    I don't know where I got the `1946' from in .-1. The copyright date
    on the book is in fact 1951.  And `News' and `Writing' are separated
    in the title. Apologies to bibliographical nit-pickers.
    
    b
    
    ps
    
    Addendum to .-1:
    
    What I said may have sounded conclusive, but it's not.  Gunning may
    have been wrong when he said that some particular person thought up
    a particular word.
    
    What should be reliable is the quotation itself and the bibliographical
    details. The former is reliable; the latter now are.
    

    
    can somoene tell me the origin of the British? use of "Blimey!" and
    "Cor!" as mild exclamations of disbelief?
    
    thankqueue
    
    -Jody
    

       "Cor" and "Blimey" normally go together, as "cor blimey".
       
       I'm not sure of the derivation of "Cor", but think that "Blimey" 
       comes from "By Our Lady Mary"
       
       Nick
       

    Actually, I think "By our lady" is where "bloody" is derived from.
    "Blimey", I believe, derives from "(may God) blind me". Chambers
    gives "a vulgar form of God" as the etymology of "cor".
    
    ...Robert
    

Cor is also heard as Gor or Gaw which would tend to support the idea of
it being god.

Similarly there is "Struth!" which is a contraction from God's Truth

Stuart

	Another such - [at least in my day :=)] - is "'zounds!" 
	meaning [I think] "from God's wounds".

    rarer, but refers to "God's Blood!".  
    
    Rathole...  Wonder what blood type it was...  C++ comes to mind... :-)

    G'day,
     Dunno, but Nelson's blood is about 85%proof....
    
    
    
    
    Cor Blimey = (may) God blind me [if I am not telling the truth]
    as I recall... and not walking under a ladder cos one was needed to put
    Jesus on the cross....
    
but why 'Bloody hell'  or other cross pollinations?
    
    And why did an Oz woman (I hesitate to use 'lady') think that the
    British say 'bleedin' this and 'bleedin' that?
    
    
    and from whence comes Sod-off?
    
    
    pseudo-antipodeans want to catch up on home culture...
    
    derek

    Well, sod is derived from Sodom, is it not? Of Sodom and Gomorrah fame,
    and also leading to numerous other useful words.
    
    Can't help you with those others, though.

.253>    And why did an Oz woman (I hesitate to use 'lady') think that the
.253>    British say 'bleedin' this and 'bleedin' that?

Because some of them do.

    	On the lines of "Cor blimey if that ain't the nicest bit of skirt I
    ever seen", before the reformation many British pubs had as their names
    some pious saying, such as "The Lord Encompasseth". During the
    reformation this was regarded as impious, and the names were often
    changed to something that sounded very similar. There are many pubs
    with "and compasses" as part of their name.

    Euphemism has come full circle in the case of `Gordon Bennet' [from
    Gawd, from God]; I've heard an RC priest use the words, and I don't
    think in _his_ heart of hearts he was blaspheming.  Maybe `gosh' was
    another prissified excuse for beginning to say God but escaping Nurse's
    attention (a bit like `bunny' for `cunny' [from Latin `cuniculus'; like
    Sp. `conejo'] - if you said `cunny' to mean a little rabbit, Nurse
    might think you were going to use That Word and send you to bed with
    no tea.) I'll have to check.
    
    b
    

    .253> Sod off
    
       Sod is a contraction of the verb to sodomise, in this case.  Note 
       that 'sodomise' is an acceptable legal term in English law.  The 
       legally acceptable noun is 'sodomy'.  Legal synonyms exist too, 
       they are 'to bugger' and 'buggery', respectively.
    
       Sodomy was, I presume, one of the many unacceptable acts that the 
       dwellers of Sodom indulged in before the city was destroyed by God 
       in His wrath.
    
       My prediction would be, and remember how often I've been wrong, 
       that 'sod off' and its twin 'bugger off', are no more than 
       alternatives to 'f**k off'.  All of these phrases are used to 
       ask/instruct someone to go away, really quickly.
    
    .257> Gordon Bennett
    
       Gordon Bennett was someone who lived at the beginning of this 
       century.  He was famous, then, for organising sporting events 
       including a hot air balloon race across the English Channel.  There 
       was also an annual motor race in France for the Coupe Gordon 
       Bennett.
    
       Its use as an expletive is probably because, when you start to say 
       it, it sounds as though you're going to say something terrible.  
       I've often heard the same use made of 'fish hooks', with the 'f' 
       sounded for well over a second.
    
    Nick

>   Its use as an expletive is probably because, when you start to say 
>       it, it sounds as though you're going to say something terrible.  
>       I've often heard the same use made of 'fish hooks', with the 'f' 
>       sounded for well over a second.
    
    The French equivalent of this seems to be "mince" instead of "merde".

	Gadzooks -- fr. God's Hooks, i.e., the crucifixion nails

There's a novel in which a character uses odd oaths like "God's toenails."
Can anyone remind me what the novel is?

	Re .257

>> .... - if you said `cunny' to mean a little rabbit ....

	Aha.  So _that's_ from where "coney" (as in Coney Island)
	comes!  And the Dutch "konijntje" (sp?)?

	But wouldn't you then expect "bunny" (rather than the 
	diminutive form of "cat") to be used to substitute for 
	"that word"?

    

    One hesitates to consider the Japanese...
    
    konitje-wah
    
    Helluva greeting!!
    

Forwarded to me from the West coast...  and I don't believe 'em all...  Any of
you people closer to the source able to verify or debunk?  

<Kalikow's comments in anglebrackets>
==================
Taken from the UK's Mail on Sunday newspaper magazine YOU.

The Origin of 10 phrases

'Drink a toast' : Pieces of toast used to be dropped into wine to collect
                  sediment

'Eat humble pie': 'Umbles' were the less savoury parts of a deer, given to the
                  lower orders after a hunt

'To go berserk' : After a demented Norse warrior, Berserker, who wore only a
                  bearskin in battle.  <Methought the dementia came from 
                  intentionally ingested chemicals, done before battle to
                  lessen fear and increase fear-inducing behavior -- 
                  "Nature's way of saying 'RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!'">

'A toady'       : A charlatan's assistant who pretended to swallow poisonous
                  toads, only to be miraculously 'cured' by the doctor's bogus
                  medicines

'Honeymoon'     : from the German tradition of drinking honey wine for a month
                  after a wedding  <To keep up their strength?>

'Let the cat out of the bag' : An 18th-century fraud in which a cat was
                               substituted for a suckling pick and sold in a
                               sack at country fairs

'Apple pie bed' : From the French 'nappe pliee', meaning folded sheets

'At sixes and sevens' : Two London Livery companies argued for 150 years about
                        which should be sixth and seventh in order of 
                        preference

'White elephant' : Siamese courtiers couldbe ruined by the cost of keeping an
                   albino elephant, a gift from a malicious donor

'Sell someone down the river': Rebellious American slaves were sold off to
                               cruel plantation owners at the lower end of
                               the Mississippi.

    G'day,
    
    
'Drink a toast' : Pieces of toast used to be dropped into wine to collect
                  sediment
*** dunno
'Eat humble pie': 'Umbles' were the less savoury parts of a deer, given to the
                  lower orders after a hunt
***  true
'To go berserk' : After a demented Norse warrior, Berserker, who wore only a
                  bearskin in battle.  <Methought the dementia came from 
                  intentionally ingested chemicals, done before battle to
                  lessen fear and increase fear-inducing behavior -- 
                  "Nature's way of saying 'RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!'">
    *** dunno - but see also bedlam from the london mental hospital
    Bethlehem hospital - like bedlam let loose (bethlehem let loose would
    have been a mad affair..)
    
'A toady'       : A charlatan's assistant who pretended to swallow poisonous
                  toads, only to be miraculously 'cured' by the doctor's bogus
                  medicines
*** true according to Macquaries Dictionary
    
'Honeymoon'     : from the German tradition of drinking honey wine for a month
                  after a wedding  <To keep up their strength?>

'Let the cat out of the bag' : An 18th-century fraud in which a cat was
                               substituted for a suckling pick and sold in a
                               sack at country fairs
*** true - see also 'to buy a pig in a poke'
    
'Apple pie bed' : From the French 'nappe pliee', meaning folded sheets
*** dunno
'At sixes and sevens' : Two London Livery companies argued for 150 years about
                        which should be sixth and seventh in order of 
                        preference
    *** dunno - could be related to teh naval '2-6 heave' if youhad one too
    many crew (#7)
'White elephant' : Siamese courtiers couldbe ruined by the cost of keeping an
                   albino elephant, a gift from a malicious donor
*** true
'Sell someone down the river': Rebellious American slaves were sold off to
                               cruel plantation owners at the lower end of
                               the Mississippi.

    ** sounds true... see also stabbed him up to the Georges River   - from
    GR inscribed on the blade of a knife...
    
    
    derek

    	The beserkers added fly-agaric (amanita muscaria) to their mead
    before battle. It is considered poisonous but not deadly. In
    particular, it contains mycoatropine which is hallucinogenic and
    sometimes aphrodisiac, and muscarine which makes you sweat. It is
    fairly common, at least in most of Western Europe.
    
    (the description is translated from my mushroom book which is in
    French, so I might have made some translation mistakes).
    
    	I think this means that beserkers were lustful, crazed, sweaty
    Norse warriors.

Why is it more costly to keep an albino elephant than a non-albino elephant?

You need vast quantities of sunscreen.

You have to take it to the elephant wash more often.

But seriously, *are* there any albino elephants?

    G'day,
    
     I do believe there are - but being rare, and accepted as a gift that
    costs a lot to maintain, they cannot be disposed of, and hence become
    the burden.
    
    
    derek
    
    

    	"Albino 
    		elephant
    (extra credit if you don't need to hit RETURN here)
    
    				before
    					its
    						time."
    
    (Explanation for the US-Advertising-deprived:  Welles sold his
    considerable screen Presence to some WineMonger, who had him saying,
    year in and year out, that 
           	"We will sell no wine before its time."
    It became a sort of mantra for pomposity in selling...)

    Re .263
    
    >One hesitates to consider the Japanese...
    >konitje-wah
    >Helluva greeting!!
    
    Ah, that must be the female's greeting, with the male equivalent as
     tjintjin-yo
    
    Re .266

    >The beserkers added fly-agaric (amanita muscaria) to their mead
    >before battle. It is considered poisonous but not deadly.
    
    Of course.  One man's mead is another man's poison.
    
    (Mr. Former Moderator sir, how could you possibly have posted that
    story without the pun?)

    	Sorry about the mis-punned tale.
    
    	White elephants were sacred, supposed to be an incarnation of some
    god. This meant that while a normal elephant could be put to
    work and earn its keep a white elephant could not. Also, as sacred
    animals they were all a-priori owned by the king, so if you had one it
    was as a present from the king. It was tactless to dispose of such a
    present in any manner whatsoever - doing so might give offense.
    
    	They were in almost every respect like that hideous vase given to
    you by a rich aunt who visits occasionaly. Now if you can imagine such
    a vase requiring a hundredweight of hay a day and leaving its droppings
    on the floor of your ducal palace..... ;-)

    "To go berserk" does come from "berserkers", savage, over-motivated
    Norse warriors.  "Berserkers", in turn, comes from the belief that
    these people could actually turn themselves into bears.
    
    						Ann B.

    re: mushroom 
    
    <Possibly offensive anthropological fact coming, dealing
     with wierd things people have done to themselves>
    
    The hallucinogenic chemical is not destroyed in your body--it
    is excreted in the urine (i.e. it acts as a catalyst and is
    not consumed in the chemical reaction which causes the visions).
    
    Since too large a dose can kill, and the potency of the mushroom
    varies, people were reluctant to risk death by eating enough to
    ensure really good visions.  One way to solve this problem was
    for a more-expendable person to eat the mushroom.  That person's
    urine would be collected.  If the tester didn't die, then the dose
    was known to be non-fatal (and there was also a good estimate of
    how strong it was).  Users could now drink the urine.  Clearly, 
    this re-use could go on for several cycles.
    
    		-John Bishop

re a couple back:

>    "To go berserk" does come from "berserkers", savage, over-motivated
>    Norse warriors.  "Berserkers", in turn, comes from the belief that
>    these people could actually turn themselves into bears.


I'd always heard that berserk was a contraction of "bear serk" or "bear sark". 
Serk (or Sark) came from the Scot and meant shirt.  Bear sark meant bearskin 
shirt, just as Cutty Sark, the ship which named the whisky, meant short or cut 
off shirt.

Anybody seen this derivation?

Larry

    Re .274: Yeah, the "shirt" thing goes with the were-bear concept. What
    isn't clear is whether the berserkers wore bearskins to assist in the
    shape-changing magic, or whether the observers saw berserkers in
    bearskins and deduced therefrom that they were were-bears... 
    
    Or, of course, that nobody really believed in shape-shifting, but had
    figured out that bearskins make moderately effective body armor
    (against light weapons, anyway) and also present an awe-inspiring
    appearance.
    
    Um, I just recalled that there's a part of the berserker legend that
    indicates they fought completely nude, which deep-sixes the bearskin
    theory, but maybe that was an exceptionally hairy bunch of berserkers.
    ;-)
    
    -b

    Hmmm.  Bare bears.
    Or is that a disease?

    From our JOYOFLEX member-ex-officio on the Left Coast:
    
    These are called fossil expresions -- words that have dropped out of
    common use but hang around in idioms.  Not all of them are separate
    words, some are part of other words or have prefixes or suffixes
    attached.  There are also words which have current meaning, but the
    meaning in the idiom is unrelated to it.  Here's a short list I've
    made, but I'm sure there are more:
    
    idiom           fossil          meaning of fossil
    --------------------------------------------------
    at bay          bay
    newfangled      fangled
    to and fro      fro             from
    gormless        gorm            attention
    hem and haw     hem, haw
    hue and cry     hue             outcry
    out of kilter   kilter          order
    kith and kin    kith            friends
    footpad         pad             highwayman
    pratfall        prat            buttocks
    rank and file   rank, file      row, column
    raring to go    raring
    ruthless        ruth            compassion
    short shrift    shrift
    spick-and-span  spick, span     nail (spike), chunk of wood
    bank teller     tell            to count
    
    ===========
    
    Discuss.

    	I suppose it depends what you mean by "common" use, but I have both
    used and heard used several of those words.
    
    	"Prat" is used quite commonly in England as an insult where an
    American would use a different term for the same portion of the
    anatomy. As a kid I was always amused at the name of a Kent village -
    Pratts Bottom. It is not far from Orpington.
    
    	"Rank" is commonly used in describing military formations, and also
    as a mathematical term in matrix arithmetic. "File" is often used as a
    synonym for queue, and also has its military use (filing past the
    commanding officer).
    
    	"Gorm" I have heard in Lancashire dialect, and "kith" in Scots.
    "Shrift" and "shriven" still have their meaning in church, and as for
    "tell", well Tolkien refers to the "tale of days" meaning counting, but
    then he was into Old English anyway.
    
    	Any English foxhunter could tell you what "at bay" means. The note
    of the foxhounds changes to baying when they have their prey cornered.
    
    	"Shrift" and "bay" at least are still current and correctly used in
    the appropriate environment, though I agree they are often used
    casually by people with no knowlege of those environments. I would put
    "osmosis" and "flashpoint" in the same category when not used by
    chemists.
    
    	Dave, who was once taken otter hunting, but has never been shriven.

    
    I always thought the "bay" in "at bay" referred to the baying of
    hounds.  Rank and file are chess terms but probably come from 
    the terms as used in military formations.  I think "raring" is
    a modification of "rearing," meaning that when a horse really wants
    to go but is held back by the reins (i.e., champing at the bit), it 
    rears up.
    
    JP
    

>    idiom           fossil          meaning of fossil
>    --------------------------------------------------

    at bay          bay		    no etymology, 14th c. (same as the sound a
			            dog makes or an enclosed place)

    newfangled      fangled	    Old English fangen: take, seize

>    to and fro      fro             from
>    gormless        gorm            attention

    hem and haw     hem, haw	    interjection:: used to indicate a vocalized
				    pause in speaking

>    hue and cry     hue             outcry
>    out of kilter   kilter          order
>    kith and kin    kith            friends
>    footpad         pad             highwayman
>    pratfall        prat            buttocks
>    rank and file   rank, file      row, column

    raring to go    raring	    English dialect: to rear

>    ruthless        ruth            compassion

    short shrift    shrift	    archaic: the act of shriving, confession

>    spick-and-span  spick, span     nail (spike), chunk of wood

				    span comes from span-new which means brand
				    new 

>    bank teller     tell            to count

    	The noise hounds make does vary, and an experienced huntsman can
    tell what is happening from this. "Full cry" is when the pack can
    actually see their quarry and are chasing it, "bay" is when they have
    surrounded it. There are other terms I don't remember for sounds they
    make when they are tracking through dense undergrowth and cannot see
    what they are hunting, or when they know they have lost it. Does anyone
    else know? It is more than 30 years since I followed that pack on the
    otter hunt.

    "Where do YOU get off, telling me how to _X_?"
    
    Not having a dictionary of colloquialisms handy, I find myself
    wondering if this expression really DOES have its origins in public
    transportation, like it appears to.  As in, "_I_ live at the end of the
    line in Far Rockaway, so wotta YOU, one of those 5th Avenue Swells,
    putting me in my place?" 
    
    Is this true?

    I've always assumed `Where do YOU get off?' was (originally,
    on a 'bus) a way of warding off unwanted company - `how long
    will I have to put up with your company?'. It smacks, to
    me, of a stand-up comic's `ad libs' - like `Thank you for
    that applau' or `Thank you mother' or `Do they know you're 
    out tonight?' or `Don't clap on your own, someone might throw
    you a fish' - not really ad libs at all, and the only
    original thing about them is their timing.
    
    Stand-up comics and public transport don't have much in
    common (except in the rush hour), but that's the way I hear
    it.
    
    b

    Re .227
    
    A lot of fossils are so well camouflaged that they're hard to spot
    and often not spotted at all.  Two examples:
    
    1
    Ear - as in `ear of wheat'- isn't just a simile (based on the look of
    the anatomical thing).  Before The Great Vowel Shift (qv - there's  a
    note somewhere) the two sorts of `ear' were different words - written,
    spelt, derived, pronounced differently. In particular, the vowel sound
    was different. I'm sure a lot of people assume (as I used to) it's just
    a simile. [The Great Vowel Shift, understandably, produced a lot of
    puns, one half of which `lost': `let' (meaning obstacle) is now heard
    only in its fossilzed tennis form; you can also see it in the phrase
    `let or hindrance' (which used to be printed - and maybe still is - in
    UK passports). But this isn't an example of a camouflaged fossil, and I
    can count.]
    
    2
    Cheer - in `good cheer' has nothing (etymologically) to do with
    bonhomie and general good feeling; of course, it has something
    to do with those things if enough people believe it - rather
    like fairies and little boys clapping their hands. `Cheer' (like
    the French `chair') is derived from the Latin `carum' - flesh.
    The season of good cheer is the season when there are good things
    to eat (not for everyone, maybe, but certainly for lexicographers).
    
    b

     Just curious.

     I have always considered a gunny sack to be of a rough burlap
     material and rather course.  Seeing the term applied to an evening
     dress doesn't fit what is familiar to me.

     As for gunny, it is a term applied to _old_ gunnery sergeants on
     land and CPOs at sea.  Or so I thought.

     	mikeP

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Note 12672.0                GUNNY SACK EVENING DRESS                  No replies
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    ...

    Strikingly handsome all black satin GUNNY SACK strapless evening dress, 
    size 8, 3/4 length, worn once.  Originally $189.00 will sell for $110.
    or best offer.  No buttons/bows/lace/rick-rack/or other "stuff", just
    plain and elegant.
    

    The "GUNNY SACK" in the dress advert is a perverted trademark.  The
    trademark is, I believe "Gunny Sax" or "Gunne Sax," and it is owned by
    a manufacturer of women's clothing whose products are generally in the
    old-fashioned, lots of satin and lace style that some people call
    "country casual."
    
    -dick

Probably a Scandinavian relative of mine.

    My dictionary gives "gunny" as coarse sacking, usually made from jute
    fibre.

     Isn't that what they used for costumes in the movie One Million BC?

     8^)

    Too many replies to check them all...
    
    Dollar - From the German 'taler' (formerly also thaler), short for 
    Joachimst(h)aler, applied to a silver coin made from metal obtained in
    Joachimst(h)al (i.e. Joachim's valley) in the Erzgebirge Germany.
    
    Lifted from Shorter OED
    
    Bucko...

    Well, if .290 is going to repeat a correct story for the Nth time,
    then so will I.
    
    The pesos symbol ($) derives from the letters P and s overwritten.
    Somewhere along the line, some people started using it for other
    currencies too, such as derivatives of taler.  Then some wiseguy
    in the U.S. treasury decided that they would print bonds with the
    letters U and S overprinted ahead of the amount in dollars.  This
    overprinting later led to a character that looks like the pesos
    symbol with two vertical bars instead of one.  So now we're stuck
    with a popular false etymology that the dollar symbol derived from
    the letters U and S.  In fact it all comes from abusing P and s.
    
    -- Norman Diamond
    
    [P.S. apologies for any confusion caused by entering a genuine
    fact under my own username :-) ]

Re: -1

>    The pesos symbol ($) derives from the letters P and s overwritten.

     The origin for the symbol $, as far as I read somewhere derives from
     the two columns, crossed with a garland of flowers, the two columns
     known as Hercules columns (today, better known as the Straits of Tarik's
     Hill => Gebel-al-Tarik => Gibraltar). Those Straits were considered as
     the Gateway to all the riches of the Hesperides - or whatever.

     The mitic symbol of those riches got transformed into our symbol for
     currency.

     Well, I am selling you this version for the same price I bought it.

     Regards,

     Juan-Carlos Kiel
     DEC Israel

    Can anyone tell me the origin of the "old bill" i.e. the police?
    
    Thanks
    
    Antonio

I suspect it derives from "William Peel" who was, if memory serves, the 
founder of the English police force.

I could of course be completely wrong, as this *is* a day with a "y" in it.

Chele

    G'day,
     'Chele.. you stuperstitious too...
    
    
    I don't work in a week with a Friday in it..
    
    
    derek
    

    Re .294: In Ireland, at least up until the independance for the members
    of the Royal Irish Constabulary, maybe also now for the Gardai, but I'm
    not sure for this last one, a popular synonym of "policeman" was
    "peeler".
    			Denis.

    Reproduced without permission from Chamber's 20th Century Dictionary...
    
    peeler .... a policeman, from Sir R Peel who established the Irish
    police (1812-18) and improved those in Britain (1828-30).....
    
    Jon
    

    .294
    
    > "William Peel"
    
    Sorry, Chele, 'twas Sir Robert Peel.
    
    "Old Bill" may derive from the Middle English bil, meaning a halberd. 
    Police work, before the invention of police forces, was done by troops
    often so equipped; their legacy lives on in the Vatican's Swiss Guards.

I remember now - that's why there are "bobbies" and "peelers" (but no more Bow 
Street runners)

Chele

    "Bill" is derived from cockney rhyming slang and of course in true
    cockney tradition, the rhyming portion has been dropped.
    
    I'll tell you the secret when someone tells me what OFWAMI stands for.
    
    /Chris.